Pacquiao or Sanchez...Which set of wins is more impressive?

[brooklyn1550]

Salvador Sanchez

TKO8 Wilfredo Gomez
TKO15 Azumah Nelson
TKO13, TKO14 Danny Lopez
UD15 Juan La Porte
UD15 Ruben Castillo
SD15 Pat Cowdell

Manny Pacquiao

TKO11, UD12 Marco Antonio Barrera
TKO10, KO3 Erik Morales
SD12 Juan Manuel Marquez
KO8 Chatchai Sasakul
TKO6 Lehlohonolo Ledwaba
UD12 Oscar Larios


Whose set of listed wins do you hold in higher regard?

[EARL]

Sanchez, easily.

[hellblazer]

Pac's

[EARL]

Pac's

:nut

[Sweet Pea]

The Gomez win was the best of the bunch, and when you factor in that I(and many others) don't believe Pacquiao beat Marquez, Sanchez holds the edge.

[EARL]

The Gomez win was the best of the bunch, and when you factor in that I(and many others) don't believe Pacquiao beat Marquez, Sanchez holds the edge.

Even then Sanchez beat his best opposition a lot more soundly than Pac. It's not even a contest.

[boxbox]

whew! i thought you were talking bout Agapito...

That Gomez win was the biggest...the rest, well i could say they are a notch lower than Mex big3, if you're going to analyze it per fighter...

[JohnPaul Futbol]

Pac DID beat Marquez, but Sanchez is the better fighter for sure.

[JohnPaul Futbol]

Pac DID beat Marquez, and his wins look better..........but Sanchez is the much better fighter.

[Nestea]

Can't tell much of a difference, Try posting more bouts of those two and maybe others can decide much better.

You should post more of there key fights.

[CJLightweight]

well i thought were talking about the set of names here who were impressive not how they won against them..anyway sanchez by far for me

[Boom_Boom]

The Gomez win is the big factor.

Take that out and Pacs resume easily is better, Gomez puts Sanchez rightfully ahead.

[Boom_Boom]

Even then Sanchez beat his best opposition a lot more soundly than Pac. It's not even a contest.

Pac only had 1 unsoundly win

[truewarrior]

I dunno i mean Gomez was undefeated and Nelson dominated the division after his loss to Sanchez. Pacs most impressive victory was with Barrera 1. None of the fighters Pac faced were in their best condition and if they were like Marquez, he really has not won a clear battle.

[sues2nd]

whew! i thought you were talking bout Agapito...

That Gomez win was the biggest...the rest, well i could say they are a notch lower than Mex big3, if you're going to analyze it per fighter...

Youd put a win over a young Azuma Nelson UNDER a win over an old Morales...or an old Barrera (the second one)...or two contreversial ones over Marquez?

Sorry, this is easily to Chava.

[PacDbest]

Bring back the dead!!! because that's the only time you can have Bragging rights over Pac!!! Wait till Pac retires. He'll be hailed as the Greatest little man in Boxing History. Some writers & HBO guys already declaring that This era of Featherweight are the Best in History. And name of Pac came up on top.

[truewarrior]

The only people voting for Pac are his cock jockeys, obviously not real boxing fans.

[brooklyn1550]

Bring back the dead!!! because that's the only time you can have Bragging rights over Pac!!! Wait till Pac retires. He'll be hailed as the Greatest little man in Boxing History. Some writers & HBO guys already declaring that This era of Featherweight are the Best in History. And name of Pac came up on top.

What is it with you are bragging rights?

You took this thread as an insult to Pac because you want it to be.

In actuality, I was simply asking a reasonable question (because I am in the process of redoing my top 100 list and want people's input about their biggest wins so I have a better idea as to who ranks higher)

[PacDbest]

What is it with you are bragging rights?

You took this thread as an insult to Pac because you want it to be.

In actuality, I was simply asking a reasonable question (because I am in the process of redoing my top 100 list and want people's input about their biggest wins so I have a better idea as to who ranks higher)

Did Chava ever fought at Different weight Class???? Pac achieved what's not expected of him. He's not supposed to succeed at the Higher weight Class because he''s a former Flyweight. He already achieve no other former Flyweight Champ in History. He's already Hailed as the Best Asian fighter ever. What else you guys need to see to give Pac his due???

OK Lets wait again till Pac dominates 135 & Beat Hatton. Maybe then you guys give Pac his due.

[truewarrior]

Did Chava ever fought at Different weight Class???? Pac achieved what's not expected of him. He's not supposed to succeed at the Higher weight Class because he''s a former Flyweight. He already achieve no other former Flyweight Champ in History. He's already Hailed as the Best Asian fighter ever. What else you guys need to see to give Pac his due???

OK Lets wait again till Pac dominates 135 & Beat Hatton. Maybe then you guys give Pac his due.

SS was 23 when he died he didnt have a chance to move up, anyways after the Nelson fight he was supposed to move up to 130LBS. SS had boxing skills, chin, speed, and endurance. He beat the best there was when he died and they became the best afterwards. What I am trying to say is get off Pacs nuts there are better fighters out there dont get too excited I know the Phillipines have never had a good boxer but dam chill pinoys

[brooklyn1550]

Did Chava ever fought at Different weight Class???? Pac achieved what's not expected of him. He's not supposed to succeed at the Higher weight Class because he''s a former Flyweight. He already achieve no other former Flyweight Champ in History. He's already Hailed as the Best Asian fighter ever. What else you guys need to see to give Pac his due???

OK Lets wait again till Pac dominates 135 & Beat Hatton. Maybe then you guys give Pac his due.

You're getting quite defensive...

I never said I don't rate Pacquiao or don't consider him one of the ATGs, which would justify you saying I don't give the guy his due. In fact, I'll go on record right now saying Manny Pacquiao is an All Time Great and the Greatest Asian Fighter of All Time.

My question was based on those two lists of wins. Pacquiao's wins over Barrera, Morales, Marquez, Sasakul, Larios, and Ledwaba against Sanchez's wins over Gomez, Nelson, Lopez, Laporte, Cowdell, and Castillo. From my perspective, and certainly many other respectable posters, it's not out of the question to vote for Sanchez.

And also, Sanchez was going to move up and fight Alexis Arguello. We all know what happened to prevent this from occuring.

[puga_ni_nana]

Salvador Sanchez

TKO8 Wilfredo Gomez
TKO15 Azumah Nelson
TKO13, TKO14 Danny Lopez
UD15 Juan La Porte
UD15 Ruben Castillo
SD15 Pat Cowdell

Manny Pacquiao

TKO11, UD12 Marco Antonio Barrera
TKO10, KO3 Erik Morales
SD12 Juan Manuel Marquez
KO8 Chatchai Sasakul
TKO6 Lehlohonolo Ledwaba
UD12 Oscar Larios


Whose set of listed wins do you hold in higher regard?


sanchez has a great win against an undefeated but comin-up in weight gomez. pac has a great win coming-up in weight against barrera. pac has a very good stoppage against an old but still good morales while sanchez had a win against a green nelson but will soon look very good in his resume. pac have a close win and a draw against a higly-skilled marquez while sanchez have two stoppages over a good puncher in danny lopez. other wins i would give the edge to pac since ledwaba and sasakul were regarded champs when pac fought them.

[boxbox]

SS was 23 when he died he didnt have a chance to move up, anyways after the Nelson fight he was supposed to move up to 130LBS. SS had boxing skills, chin, speed, and endurance. He beat the best there was when he died and they became the best afterwards. What I am trying to say is get off Pacs nuts there are better fighters out there dont get too excited I know the Phillipines have never had a good boxer but dam chill pinoys


excuse me:huh how about Elorde and Villa?

[CJLightweight]

this goes easily to sanchez witohout bias. period

[PATSYS]

Salvador Sanchez

TKO8 Wilfredo Gomez
TKO15 Azumah Nelson
TKO13, TKO14 Danny Lopez
UD15 Juan La Porte
UD15 Ruben Castillo
SD15 Pat Cowdell

Manny Pacquiao

TKO11, UD12 Marco Antonio Barrera
TKO10, KO3 Erik Morales
SD12 Juan Manuel Marquez
KO8 Chatchai Sasakul
TKO6 Lehlohonolo Ledwaba
UD12 Oscar Larios


Whose set of listed wins do you hold in higher regard?

Pac

[PacDbest]

You're getting quite defensive...

I never said I don't rate Pacquiao or don't consider him one of the ATGs, which would justify you saying I don't give the guy his due. In fact, I'll go on record right now saying Manny Pacquiao is an All Time Great and the Greatest Asian Fighter of All Time.

My question was based on those two lists of wins. Pacquiao's wins over Barrera, Morales, Marquez, Sasakul, Larios, and Ledwaba against Sanchez's wins over Gomez, Nelson, Lopez, Laporte, Cowdell, and Castillo. From my perspective, and certainly many other respectable posters, it's not out of the question to vote for Sanchez.

And also, Sanchez was going to move up and fight Alexis Arguello. We all know what happened to prevent this from occuring.

Ok.. Youtube is there. watch them all fights you mentioned Then tell which one you enjoy the most??? I live in that era of the 1980s, Chava & Gomez wt class is only the 3rd in Popularity behind the Heavys & welters of that era. In this era.. Pac selling more tickets & PPVs than Heavys & any other weightclass except for fight involving DLH & PBF.

[brooklyn1550]

Ok.. Youtube is there. watch them all fights you mentioned Then tell which one you enjoy the most??? I live in that era of the 1980s, Chava & Gomez wt class is only the 3rd in Popularity behind the Heavys & welters of that era. In this era.. Pac selling more tickets & PPVs than Heavys & any other weightclass except for fight involving DLH & PBF.

Is this the best you could come up with?

Again, your response has no significance to the question I asked. I realize Pacquiao is a popular fighter who puts asses in seats and generates big PPV numbers. I LOVE to watch him fight. But popularity or PPV numbers doesn't make a fighter's win any better than anothers.

To analyze/compare the quality of wins, you have to look at the following things:
1. Quality of the opponent
2. How the winner looked
3. Stylistic edge/disadvantage
4. Status of the opponent

...and to a lesser extent with more modern wins, the bookie situation.

[sweet_scientist]

I'd pick a green Azumah Nelson to KO any of Pac's best opponents.

[divac]

Bring back the dead!!! because that's the only time you can have Bragging rights over Pac!!! Wait till Pac retires. He'll be hailed as the Greatest little man in Boxing History. Some writers & HBO guys already declaring that This era of Featherweight are the Best in History. And name of Pac came up on top.

Is that right?
.....then you must have heard wrong, because that HBO broadcast also said that its possible that history may not recognize because of his official loss to Pacquiao that JMM was the best featherweight of the era.
It was Max Kellerman of HBO who said it, stating that in his opinion JMM has two victories over Manny Pacquiao and that history is unlikely to recognize it as such because in the official books it is Pacquiao who has a W on his resume over JMM......Bob Papa closed the commentary by echoing the same sentiment.

[JMotrain]

Sanchez

[divac]

Pac got schooled three times by JMM and Erik Morales.......

......no such thing or anything close to that in Salvador Sanchez' resume.

Sanchez' resume is clearly better, and besides, Sanchez could do it all, box or rumble and do them both well equally!
Thats just not the case with Manny Pacquiao!

[4Rounder]

SAL

ATG since a very young age, and already considered by many as the best featherweight ever.

[TheGoldenBoy#1]

You ll you just have to look at the avatars of the folk voting for Pacquiao.

(Yes Im aware I have sanchez in my avatar) but I also love Pacman but for me it s got to be sanchez based on those lists. It s hard to say anything negative about EITHER lists because they are both unbelievable resumes but for me Sal gets the nod.

(I also had the second Marquez fight for JMM by a shade too)

Still though Pac defintely deserves to be in the thick of discussions with the likes of Sanchez he s at that ATG level :good

[jupzrooni]

Salvador Sanchez

TKO8 Wilfredo Gomez
TKO15 Azumah Nelson
TKO13, TKO14 Danny Lopez
UD15 Juan La Porte
UD15 Ruben Castillo
SD15 Pat Cowdell

Manny Pacquiao

TKO11, UD12 Marco Antonio Barrera
TKO10, KO3 Erik Morales
SD12 Juan Manuel Marquez
KO8 Chatchai Sasakul
TKO6 Lehlohonolo Ledwaba
UD12 Oscar Larios


Whose set of listed wins do you hold in higher regard?

sanchez. it's just amazing that in his early 20's he's already cleaning up the featherweight division

[RafaelGonzal]

That is the one Mexican Fighter Manny would not have cleaned out at 126.

[johnco]

]Pac got schooled three times by JMM and Erik Morales.......[/SIZE]

......no such thing or anything close to that in Salvador Sanchez' resume.

Sanchez' resume is clearly better, and besides, Sanchez could do it all, box or rumble and do them both well equally!
Thats just not the case with Manny Pacquiao!



:patsch :patsch :patsch :patsch :patsch

[jupzrooni]

:patsch :patsch :patsch :patsch :patsch

:yep
relax johnco it's his stupid opinion wala na tayong magagawa dyan

[johnco]

:yep
relax johnco it's his stupid opinion wala na tayong magagawa dyan

:good :good we cant do anything about delusional haters :-(

[dangerousity]

Alot of people are pointing out how Sal has achieved so much by 23. Well dont forget, by 24 pac has already won championships in 3 weight divisions, 2 lineal belts and 1 being a demolition of MAB. This is with all the odds stack against him coming from philippines. Lets face it, pac would have had a much easier route and PPV material much earlier on had he come from Mexico or US.

Having said that, Nelson & Gomez wins it for Sanchez.

[Circa]

That is the one Mexican Fighter Manny would not have cleaned out at 126.

how did you know einstein? :hat

[CJLightweight]

sanchez was young, undefeated and already have defeated quality opposition. Sanchez gets the nod by a mile:good

[PacDbest]

Alot of people are pointing out how Sal has achieved so much by 23. Well dont forget, by 24 pac has already won championships in 3 weight divisions, 2 lineal belts and 1 being a demolition of MAB. This is with all the odds stack against him coming from philippines. Lets face it, pac would have had a much easier route and PPV material much earlier on had he come from Mexico or US.

Having said that, Nelson & Gomez wins it for Sanchez.

Nelson is just an unknown Sub opponent for Chava, He's got only 2 weeks notice & just in his 13th or 15th fight. It just happen that Nelson makes his legacy after his Great fight with Chava.

It's just the same as Pac coming as unknown & underdog beating Ledwaba. But in Pac's case He dominates, Destroyed & surprised his opponent who is the Champ & the Favorite to win. It just happened that Ledwaba never rocovered from Pac destruction.

For me Pac win against Ledwaba is Greater coz he is the underdog. While Chava struggled with an in experienced late sub fighter(although he becomes Great afterwards).

[TFFP]

Sanchez by a distance. Fucking Pac huggers.

[johnco]

Sanchez by a distance. Fucking Pac huggers.

you have to explain how did you end up picking sanchez by a distance instead of having a Myocardial Infarction and cursing the pac huggers who got the 3 time world champion/ 3 time lineal champ under their wings.... ;)

[Totomabs]

:patsch :patsch :patsch :patsch :patsch



Easy ka lang dyan tsong. Talo pikon. no need to dignify Divac with a reaction. Not everyone believes on what divac has to say, anyways. Almost everyone know he packs a lot of love for JMM.:lol: Same as most, if not all of us pinoys for pacman, as well.


And by the way, in my own honest opinion, Sal Sanchez's wins are more impressive considering he has beaten all those listed(esp. gomez) at the age of 23.

What pacman has achieved at this point of his career is definitely worthy of praise and adulation. Moreso with the fact that many believe(i included) that his accomplishments have already cemented his place as an ATG.

While, sadly, Chava had no chance of further establishing greatness because of his untimely demise.:-(

[Minotauro]

Sanchez wins are better Gomez was seen as unbeatable at that point I believe he was 32-0 with 32 knockouts and destroyed an ATG Zarate. The two best names on Pac's Morales and Barrera were both past their best.

[TFFP]

Sanchez wins are better Gomez was seen as unbeatable at that point I believe he was 32-0 with 32 knockouts and destroyed an ATG Zarate. The two best names on Pac's Morales and Barrera were both past their best.
Afuckingmen and goodnight

The stupidity on these boards never ceases to amaze me at times. Notice how all the objective well informed posters vote Sanchez and the hordes of Pac sackswingers vote him

Quelle suprise! :roll:

[puga_ni_nana]

people tend to downplay pac's beating of barrera by saying he is past his best but we must remember that pac is going up in weight against barrera while gomez is going up in weight against sanchez. gomez did not do farely well at 126. he was a monster at 122 though.

[johnco]

Afuckingmen and goodnight

The stupidity on these boards never ceases to amaze me at times. Notice how all the objective well informed posters vote Sanchez and the hordes of Pac sackswingers vote him

Quelle suprise! :roll:

and you did not even post your reasoning :lol: :lol:
and here you are talking about "objective" :rofl :rofl :rofl

[TFFP]

and you did not even post your reasoning :lol: :lol:
and here you are talking about "objective" :rofl :rofl :rofl
It's just fairly obvious, the Gomez win is better than any of Pac's by a long way. The rest are fairly even, considering Morales and Barrera are past their prime to put it mildly

And then we look at the polls. For Sanchez we have huki, brooklyn, Sweet Pea etc

For Pac we have PacDbest, johnco, puga!

WHAT SUPRISE! :lol:

[sthomas]

I pick Sanchez regardless of age. Adding the age part, consider Sanchez was 23 for his last fight against Nelson, and Sanchez is even more impressive. I've been watching his fights lately on U-tube (not the best) and he was something to behold

[puga_ni_nana]

It's just fairly obvious, the Gomez win is better than any of Pac's by a long way. The rest are fairly even, considering Morales and Barrera are past their prime to put it mildly

And then we look at the polls. For Sanchez we have huki, brooklyn, Sweet Pea etc

For Pac we have PacDbest, johnco, puga!

WHAT SUPRISE! :lol:

would you care explaining why cowdell, castillo and la porte wins are equal with pac beating ledwaba, sasakul and larios? never mind barrera, morales and marquez. please educate us since you seemed to be a boxing expert.

i am not saying that pac trounce sanchez competition, i just don't approve that sanchez has a far greater sets of wins compared to pac that the OP listed.

[Amsterdam]

Salvador Sanchez

TKO8 Wilfredo Gomez
TKO15 Azumah Nelson
TKO13, TKO14 Danny Lopez
UD15 Juan La Porte
UD15 Ruben Castillo
SD15 Pat Cowdell

Manny Pacquiao

TKO11, UD12 Marco Antonio Barrera
TKO10, KO3 Erik Morales
SD12 Juan Manuel Marquez
KO8 Chatchai Sasakul
TKO6 Lehlohonolo Ledwaba
UD12 Oscar Larios


Whose set of listed wins do you hold in higher regard?

Sanchez on his more definitive victories. Have to factor in how a fight was won, Pac didn't beat Marquez on either occassion and several of those performances in there are less than impressive.

[brooklyn1550]

Nelson is just an unknown Sub opponent for Chava, He's got only 2 weeks notice & just in his 13th or 15th fight. It just happen that Nelson makes his legacy after his Great fight with Chava.

It's just the same as Pac coming as unknown & underdog beating Ledwaba. But in Pac's case He dominates, Destroyed & surprised his opponent who is the Champ & the Favorite to win. It just happened that Ledwaba never rocovered from Pac destruction.

For me Pac win against Ledwaba is Greater coz he is the underdog. While Chava struggled with an in experienced late sub fighter(although he becomes Great afterwards).

Even a prime Ledwaba isn't at the level of a green Azumah Nelson.

[Amsterdam]

Even a prime Ledwaba isn't at the level of a green Azumah Nelson.

Azumah Nelson would have taken Pac out, IMO. And no doubt Gomez would have also.

And let me repeat to the idiot Pac nuthuggers who belong back over at Pacland.com -

Marquez has been declining since the first fight, he's 34, old for a featherweight and Pac still didn't beat him this last time out, incompetent judging saw that he recieved an unfair decision. You hide behind 'it was a close fight' logic, yet the fight was clear as crystal who won, despite being close and competitive in the same.

[Fedor Em]

Manny's "wins" are as good on paper as Chava's but the way Sanchez won was more impressive, and I thought Pac lost the 2nd Marquez fight, barely.

Resmue Manny Pac is getting ready to move into top 50 all time but he is not on the level of Sanchez, not now, maybe not ever.

[Fedor Em]

Azumah Nelson would have taken Pac out, IMO. And no doubt Gomez would have also.

And let me repeat to the idiot Pac nuthuggers who belong back over at Pacland.com -

Marquez has been declining since the first fight, he's 34, old for a featherweight and Pac still didn't beat him this last time out, incompetent judging saw that he recieved an unfair decision. You hide behind 'it was a close fight' logic, yet the fight was clear as crystal who won, despite being close and competitive in the same.

I had Marquez winning by a point when I saw it again but after the first time watching it I had Pac winning by a point. This was far from a robbery, and I am a huge JMM fan.

Also Nelson would have beaten Pac by decision, I am with you on that

[brooklyn1550]

Manny's "wins" are as good on paper as Chava's but the way Sanchez won was more impressive, and I thought Pac lost the 2nd Marquez fight, barely.

Resmue Manny Pac is getting ready to move into top 50 all time but he is not on the level of Sanchez, not now, maybe not ever.

Agreed

To surpass Sanchez on the ATG lists, Pacquiao needs to do one of two things. The first option would be to beat Joan Guzman in convincing fashion. The second option would be to clean out the lightweight division by beating David Diaz, Joel Casamayor, and Nate Campbell.

To be honest, I don't see either of those two ever happening. Right now, he ranks top 60 all time. Sanchez is top 40-45.

[puga_ni_nana]

Agreed

To surpass Sanchez on the ATG lists, Pacquiao needs to do one of two things. The first option would be to beat Joan Guzman in convincing fashion. The second option would be to clean out the lightweight division by beating David Diaz, Joel Casamayor, and Nate Campbell.

To be honest, I don't see either of those two ever happening. Right now, he ranks top 60 all time. Sanchez is top 40-45.


i'm curious. where do you rank barrera, morales and gomez on your ATG list? i'm not an expert i browse forums to learn, thanks.

[brooklyn1550]

i'm curious. where do you rank barrera, morales and gomez on your ATG list? i'm not an expert i browse forums to learn, thanks.

Gomez is in my top 65.

Barrera and Morales are both in my top 80. I could see a case for them being higher or lower.

[Amsterdam]

Agreed

To surpass Sanchez on the ATG lists, Pacquiao needs to do one of two things. The first option would be to beat Joan Guzman in convincing fashion. The second option would be to clean out the lightweight division by beating David Diaz, Joel Casamayor, and Nate Campbell.

To be honest, I don't see either of those two ever happening. Right now, he ranks top 60 all time. Sanchez is top 40-45.

A combination of beating Guzman(decisively) and beating Diaz, Casamayor and Campbell would be pretty serious.

Except for the fact that Campbell kills him, Guzman schools him, Casa's a 50/50 and Diaz is picked just for an easy win.

[puga_ni_nana]

Gomez is in my top 65.

Barrera and Morales are both in my top 80. I could see a case for them being higher or lower.


well thanks.

[PacDbest]

Salvador Sanchez

TKO8 Wilfredo Gomez
TKO15 Azumah Nelson
TKO13, TKO14 Danny Lopez
UD15 Juan La Porte
UD15 Ruben Castillo
SD15 Pat Cowdell

Manny Pacquiao

TKO11, UD12 Marco Antonio Barrera
TKO10, KO3 Erik Morales
SD12 Juan Manuel Marquez
KO8 Chatchai Sasakul
TKO6 Lehlohonolo Ledwaba
UD12 Oscar Larios


Whose set of listed wins do you hold in higher regard?


Here's Chava's record. Check also the record of his opponent listed above, How they are perceived going into the fight.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Gomez- he's moving up in weight, Chava's naturally bigger. Same as Rafa vs Izzy, Pac vs MAB, Pac vs EM.

Nelson- Last minute replacement, in-experienced. Who's in Nelson's resume going into the fight??? Nobody!!!

Lopez -already has some KO loses to Chacon & some Japanese bum.

Castillo- Recently Koed by Arguello

La porte- just look his record before & after Chava. He's no HOF.

Cowdell- Who did he beat??? And Chava just won by SD.

Pac's Resume is fresh from your mind- No need to explain how Greater his wins are. Forget about the Larios fight, it's just a tune-up fight.

[brooklyn1550]

A combination of beating Guzman(decisively) and beating Diaz, Casamayor and Campbell would be pretty serious.

Except for the fact that Campbell kills him, Guzman schools him, Casa's a 50/50 and Diaz is picked just for an easy win.

Pretty much; Pac will never take the Guzman fight. Just too big of a risk with too little of a reward ($$$)

If he did do all of that stuff you listed, I'd go as far as putting him in the top 20 all time. He'd surpass Chavez with all of those wins.

[Amsterdam]

Pretty much; Pac will never take the Guzman fight. Just too big of a risk with too little of a reward ($$$)

If he did do all of that stuff you listed, I'd go as far as putting him in the top 20 all time. He'd surpass Chavez with all of those wins.

The classic enthusiasts would disagree with you because of not rating Campbell or Guzman as anything.:yep

[brooklyn1550]

Here's Chava's record. Check also the record of his opponent listed above, How they are perceived going into the fight.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Gomez- he's moving up in weight, Chava's naturally bigger. Same as Rafa vs Izzy, Pac vs MAB, Pac vs EM.

Nelson- Last minute replacement, in-experienced. Who's in Nelson's resume going into the fight??? Nobody!!!

Lopez -already has some KO loses to Chacon & some Japanese bum.

Castillo- Recently Koed by Arguello

La porte- just look his record before & after Chava. He's no HOF.

Cowdell- Who did he beat??? And Chava just won by SD.

Pac's Resume is fresh from your mind- No need to explain how Greater his wins are. Forget about the Larios fight, it's just a tune-up fight.

Pacquiao's best win of the big three he's faced was his TKO11 over Marco Antonio Barrera. His other wins are either 1) against older opponents (Barrera II, Morales II and III) or 2) controversial (Marquez II).

I'd take a green Azumah Nelson over a well-past-it Barrera or a shot Morales. Why? Because unlike Barrera or Morales, his reflexes were top notch, his speed was better than ever, and his hunger was through the roof. No skills had eroded Nelson at that time the way they did with Barrera and Morales. His only problem? Lack of experience.

The Gomez win is the best between the both of them. He was undefeated, had 32 knockout wins in 32 fights, and was clearly a dangerous opponent. Sanchez beat him as if it was nothing. right from the opening bell. He also beat Danny Lopez twice in a masterful displays of counterpunching.

Against his three best opponents (Gomez, Nelson, Lopez), Sanchez struggled all but once. And in the end, he won every one of those fights by stoppage (definitive endings). His wins over Gomez and Lopez x 2 were as clear as they come, all the way through. And he never lost to any of them.

By comparison, Pacquiao failed to stop Barrera and Marquez. One of those wins was controversial, and in my eyes, a close, but CLEAR decision for the loser. He also struggled more in the middle rounds against a past-it Morales in the second fight than Sanchez did in the Lopez or Gomez fights. To make matters worse for Pacquiao, he drew with Marquez in another controversial fight and lost to Morales. Unlike Sanchez, he wasn't undefeated against his 3 best opponents.

Does Pacquiao have a great resume? Yes, one would be crazy not to think so. Does Pacquiao's 3 best wins surpass Sanchez's? No, I don't think so.

I will say that Pacquiao's wins over Ledwaba and Sasakul are vastly underrated, mostly because people simply don't have a clue who Sasakul is. Those wins are greater than Sanchez's wins over Castillo and Cowdell, because not only were Pacquiao's opponents better, but he stopped both. Cowdell was a good fighter, and could make just about anybody look bad, but Sanchez should have beaten him in more convincing fashion. It illustrates that Sanchez was a guy who fought to the level of his competition.

The Larios and Laporte wins tip this in favor of Sanchez. Larios was never meant to be a super featherweight and had seen his best days. Pacquiao failed to stop him. And he really should have. Even Jorge Linares stopped Larios a year or so later. The Laporte that Sanchez fought was much better than the Larios that Pacquiao fought. That's not even disputable. And you can't hold it against Sanchez for not winning by KO, since Laporte had a cast iron jaw.

[brooklyn1550]

The classic enthusiasts would disagree with you because of not rating Campbell or Guzman as anything.:yep

No question about it:yep

[196osh]

Salvador Sanchez

[puga_ni_nana]

Pacquiao's best win of the big three he's faced was his TKO11 over Marco Antonio Barrera. His other wins are either 1) against older opponents (Barrera II, Morales II and III) or 2) controversial (Marquez II).

I'd take a green Azumah Nelson over a well-past-it Barrera or a shot Morales. Why? Because unlike Barrera or Morales, his reflexes were top notch, his speed was better than ever, and his hunger was through the roof. No skills had eroded Nelson at that time the way they did with Barrera and Morales. His only problem? Lack of experience.

The Gomez win is the best between the both of them. He was undefeated, had 32 knockout wins in 32 fights, and was clearly a dangerous opponent. Sanchez beat him as if it was nothing. right from the opening bell. He also beat Danny Lopez twice in a masterful displays of counterpunching.

Against his three best opponents (Gomez, Nelson, Lopez), Sanchez struggled all but once. And in the end, he won every one of those fights by stoppage (definitive endings). His wins over Gomez and Lopez x 2 were as clear as they come, all the way through. And he never lost to any of them.

By comparison, Pacquiao failed to stop Barrera and Marquez. One of those wins was controversial, and in my eyes, a close, but CLEAR decision for the loser. He also struggled more in the middle rounds against a past-it Morales in the second fight than Sanchez did in the Lopez or Gomez fights. To make matters worse for Pacquiao, he drew with Marquez in another controversial fight and lost to Morales. Unlike Sanchez, he wasn't undefeated against his 3 best opponents.

Does Pacquiao have a great resume? Yes, one would be crazy not to think so. Does Pacquiao's 3 best wins surpass Sanchez's? No, I don't think so.

I will say that Pacquiao's wins over Ledwaba and Sasakul are vastly underrated, mostly because people simply don't have a clue who Sasakul is. Those wins are greater than Sanchez's wins over Castillo and Cowdell, because not only were Pacquiao's opponents better, but he stopped both. Cowdell was a good fighter, and could make just about anybody look bad, but Sanchez should have beaten him in more convincing fashion. It illustrates that Sanchez was a guy who fought to the level of his competition.

The Larios and Laporte wins tip this in favor of Sanchez. Larios was never meant to be a super featherweight and had seen his best days. Pacquiao failed to stop him. And he really should have. Even Jorge Linares stopped Larios a year or so later. The Laporte that Sanchez fought was much better than the Larios that Pacquiao fought. That's not even disputable. And you can't hold it against Sanchez for not winning by KO, since Laporte had a cast iron jaw.


good post. i am waiting for someone to explain in detail why they picked sanchez or pac.

some points. imo morales was not shot in any of the three fights. you could argue the third but it was more mainly to weight problem. pac did stopped barrera. it was an old barrera but a little closer to a prime barrera and an improved version of his prime years. the manner of when the fights took place and condition must be given importance. who was the reigning champion? who was going up in weight? the quality and variety of styles that each faced.

[4Rounder]

good post. i am waiting for someone to explain in detail why they picked sanchez or pac.

some points. imo morales was not shot in any of the three fights. you could argue the third but it was more mainly to weight problem. pac did stopped barrera. it was an old barrera but a little closer to a prime barrera and an improved version of his prime years. the manner of when the fights took place and condition must be given importance. who was the reigning champion? who was going up in weight? the quality and variety of styles that each faced.

Only nuthuggers believe Morales was not shot in that 3rd fight. IT WAS OBVIOUS for those watching without pacman eyes.

I was rooting for Morales and after round 1 I knew it was gonna be over soon.

[PacDbest]

Pacquiao's best win of the big three he's faced was his TKO11 over Marco Antonio Barrera. His other wins are either 1) against older opponents (Barrera II, Morales II and III) or 2) controversial (Marquez II).

I'd take a green Azumah Nelson over a well-past-it Barrera or a shot Morales. Why? Because unlike Barrera or Morales, his reflexes were top notch, his speed was better than ever, and his hunger was through the roof. No skills had eroded Nelson at that time the way they did with Barrera and Morales. His only problem? Lack of experience.

The Gomez win is the best between the both of them. He was undefeated, had 32 knockout wins in 32 fights, and was clearly a dangerous opponent. Sanchez beat him as if it was nothing. right from the opening bell. He also beat Danny Lopez twice in a masterful displays of counterpunching.

Against his three best opponents (Gomez, Nelson, Lopez), Sanchez struggled all but once. And in the end, he won every one of those fights by stoppage (definitive endings). His wins over Gomez and Lopez x 2 were as clear as they come, all the way through. And he never lost to any of them.

By comparison, Pacquiao failed to stop Barrera and Marquez. One of those wins was controversial, and in my eyes, a close, but CLEAR decision for the loser. He also struggled more in the middle rounds against a past-it Morales in the second fight than Sanchez did in the Lopez or Gomez fights. To make matters worse for Pacquiao, he drew with Marquez in another controversial fight and lost to Morales. Unlike Sanchez, he wasn't undefeated against his 3 best opponents.

Does Pacquiao have a great resume? Yes, one would be crazy not to think so. Does Pacquiao's 3 best wins surpass Sanchez's? No, I don't think so.

I will say that Pacquiao's wins over Ledwaba and Sasakul are vastly underrated, mostly because people simply don't have a clue who Sasakul is. Those wins are greater than Sanchez's wins over Castillo and Cowdell, because not only were Pacquiao's opponents better, but he stopped both. Cowdell was a good fighter, and could make just about anybody look bad, but Sanchez should have beaten him in more convincing fashion. It illustrates that Sanchez was a guy who fought to the level of his competition.

The Larios and Laporte wins tip this in favor of Sanchez. Larios was never meant to be a super featherweight and had seen his best days. Pacquiao failed to stop him. And he really should have. Even Jorge Linares stopped Larios a year or so later. The Laporte that Sanchez fought was much better than the Larios that Pacquiao fought. That's not even disputable. And you can't hold it against Sanchez for not winning by KO, since Laporte had a cast iron jaw.

Are you blind or just Plain biased???

Pac moving up in weight TKOing a top 5 P4P in MAB. There's nothing on Chava's resume with that matches that. This is greater than Chave winning against A SMALLER Gomez.

Pac the only one who Koed Morales & he did it twice. That's the importance of that fight.

Pac's the 1st elite fighter to Fight JMM, and he never played hard to get fighting an avoided fighter like JMM. He was robbed by the judge the 1st time, He won a close one on the rematch. Chava has some SD win too against a not so Great Opponent. JMM is one of the best technical fighter in boxing history. Pac winning twice in my book is a Great accomplishment in itself.

Pac's winning the lineal 112 title against sasakul is Great in itself . Pac's was just 19 & still raw & win in shear natural talent. It's just Like Nelson who's green Knocking out Chava for the title.

The ledwaba fight becomes Great win coz is took Pac only 2 weeks to prepare & the way he demolished a very Good technical fighter.

I told you forget about larios. It's just a tune up.

[brooklyn1550]

Are you blind or just Plain biased???


PacDbest asking me if I'm blind or, better yet, biased? There's a good laugh.

I gave my thoughts already, and I think I was pretty fair. Certainly I'm not the only one who voted for Sanchez.

[puga_ni_nana]

Only nuthuggers believe Morales was not shot in that 3rd fight. IT WAS OBVIOUS for those watching without pacman eyes.

I was rooting for Morales and after round 1 I knew it was gonna be over soon.

morales' weight problem was properly covered during that time. its easy to say in hindsight that morales was shot but before the fight a lot of morales backers are confident that morales can bat pac again and him getting on a weight control program could fix his weight problem.

[Antonio]

I would like to add that sanchez was younger than azuma and gomez (azuma was never koed after sanchez fight), also there were some possible matches for salvador Alexis Arguello and Julio Cesar Chavez at 130 that if he would had beaten I have no doubt he would be concidered in the Top 10 boxers in all history.

[Sweet Pea]

Are you blind or just Plain biased???
:rofl :rofl :rofl

[punch13]

Pacquiao again

[punch13]

Pacquiao vs. Marquez fight in the first round should have been stop after the third knockdown.

[brooklyn1550]

Pacquiao vs. Marquez fight in the first round should have been stop after the third knockdown.

Pacquiao would have easily had the very best record.

Why?

Marquez wasn't old cold, his eyes weren't rolling back, and there was no 3 knockdown rule. The ref made a judgement call, allowed Marquez to get up, and asked him a critical question. Smart move on his part because Marquez was able to continue and win most of the remaining rounds, winning on many people's scorecards.

[Nestea]

I still say both. We can't/shouldn't compare these guys. They fought different opposition and no way telling what would be the difference.

[1lehudson]

Well I would say based on two facts I would have to say Sanchez.

Reason 1 Sanchez beat fighters in thier primes.

Reason 2 Sanchez actually won those fights:good

[jecxbox]

Sanchez beating Gomez...That was godly.

[kg0208]

Are you blind or just Plain biased???

Pac moving up in weight TKOing a top 5 P4P in MAB. There's nothing on Chava's resume with that matches that. This is greater than Chave winning against A SMALLER Gomez.

Pac the only one who Koed Morales & he did it twice. That's the importance of that fight.

Pac's the 1st elite fighter to Fight JMM, and he never played hard to get fighting an avoided fighter like JMM. He was robbed by the judge the 1st time, He won a close one on the rematch. Chava has some SD win too against a not so Great Opponent. JMM is one of the best technical fighter in boxing history. Pac winning twice in my book is a Great accomplishment in itself.

Pac's winning the lineal 112 title against sasakul is Great in itself . Pac's was just 19 & still raw & win in shear natural talent. It's just Like Nelson who's green Knocking out Chava for the title.

The ledwaba fight becomes Great win coz is took Pac only 2 weeks to prepare & the way he demolished a very Good technical fighter.

I told you forget about larios. It's just a tune up.
Tell us a little bit about Gomez and LaPorte PacD? Also elaborate on the career of Lopez....

[kg0208]

morales' weight problem was properly covered during that time. its easy to say in hindsight that morales was shot but before the fight a lot of morales backers are confident that morales can bat pac again and him getting on a weight control program could fix his weight problem.

Yes, but MOST believed he was shot. He was considered past it a bit when he fought MAB the 3rd time, and others had mentioned his slowing down. This wasn't in hindsight, as it was noticable that it WASN'T the weight because he was unsucessful just 5lbs higher. His body had broken down....He lost 5 of his last 6 fights. That is the very definition of a shot fighter.

[1lehudson]

Tell us a little bit about Gomez and LaPorte PacD?He is going to have to get back to you on that one. He needs to check box r e c . com first.:hey

[1lehudson]

Yes, but MOST believed he was shot. He was considered past it a bit when he fought MAB the 3rd time, and others had mentioned his slowing down. This wasn't in hindsight, as it was noticable that it WASN'T the weight because he was unsucessful just 5lbs higher. His body had broken down....He lost 5 of his last 6 fights. That is the very definition of a shot fighter.Remeber it was after Erik was outclassed by Raheem that everyone was saying that he was shot...It was after that when Pac won a fight with Erik..Before Erik won the first fight. I think that only a truely BLIND Pacbacker would say that Erik wasnt shot.

[kg0208]

Remeber it was after Erik was outclassed by Raheem that everyone was saying that he was shot...It was after that when Pac won a fight with Erik..Before Erik won the first fight. I think that only a truely BLIND Pacbacker would say that Erik wasnt shot.

And it wasn't that he lost to Raheem....he was outclassed!

He was having trouble making 130 supposedly, so he moves up to 135 and is sluggish and gets beaten easily by an above average fighter with no power.

He moves back down to 130 and is still sluggish and gets KO'd. If you can't make either weight class and you're reflexes are gone, it means your body has broken down.

[PacDbest]

Tell us a little bit about Gomez and LaPorte PacD? Also elaborate on the career of Lopez....

check my previous post.

[kg0208]

check my previous post.
No. You posted a boxrec link. Anyone can do that and it tells you little.

Tell me about their careers, highlights, how they were perceived. You're post on Pacquaio's opponents, you keep referring to how the fighters weres perceived and the context the fight happened in. If you are going to compare objectively (as you claim to be doing) you will be able to tell us some of the context around those 3 fighters, and how they were perceived. So, tell me about them.

[PacDbest]

No. You posted a boxrec link. Anyone can do that and it tells you little.

Tell me about their careers, highlights, how they were perceived. You're post on Pacquaio's opponents, you keep referring to how the fighters weres perceived and the context the fight happened in. If you are going to compare objectively (as you claim to be doing) you will be able to tell us some of the context around those 3 fighters, and how they were perceived. So, tell me about them.

KG I'm older than you. I was a young teenager when this guys fought. I don't think you're even born when this guys were the stars. I've seen them live on delayed telecast. All the information about them is well documented in the net. Boxrec can't lie. It's well documented. Check wiki too.

[kg0208]

KG I'm older than you. I was a young teenager when this guys fought. I don't think you're even born when this guys were the stars. I've seen them live on delayed telecast. All the information about them is well documented in the net. Boxrec can't lie. It's well documented. Check wiki too.
Yes, and my father is older than me. I can talk circles around him in a sports debate. Age has little to do with this as you well know, otherwise you would never debate with older members. I have seen more boxing than you (you missed at least 13 years worth even if you're not lying about the 80's and you're watching the fighters then)

I never said boxrec lied, I simply said it doesn't tell you everything, especially context. You elaborated on the context of Pacquiao's opponents. I am asking you, in fairness, to do so as well with Sanchez's for the sake of objectivity, something you brought up when questioning Brooklyn.

Now are you going to actually answer the question or not? I am not asking you to elaborte because I don't know, but because I know that YOU don't know. Which is why you are dodging the question. I also think you're lying about seeing them. Now stop stalling.

[chimba]

Well I would say based on two facts I would have to say Sanchez.

Reason 1 Sanchez beat fighters in thier primes.

Reason 2 Sanchez actually won those fights:good

Sanchez beat a green Nelson in Nelsons 10th pro fight.. And it wasnt easy..Nelson would have wrecked him abit later.

Gomez was superb at 122..but he stepped up and never did well at 126..got blown out by Nelson as well

Otherswise sanchez struggled with his other title defenses...

He was a great fighter but was Diefied when he died just like everyone else famous who died early..I can understand that

[PacDbest]

Yes, and my father is older than me. I can talk circles around him in a sports debate. Age has little to do with this as you well know, otherwise you would never debate with older members. I have seen more boxing than you (you missed at least 13 years worth even if you're not lying about the 80's and you're watching the fighters then)

I never said boxrec lied, I simply said it doesn't tell you everything, especially context. You elaborated on the context of Pacquiao's opponents. I am asking you, in fairness, to do so as well with Sanchez's for the sake of objectivity, something you brought up when questioning Brooklyn.

Now are you going to actually answer the question or not? I am not asking you to elaborte because I don't know, but because I know that YOU don't know. Which is why you are dodging the question. I also think you're lying about seeing them. Now stop stalling.

Coz I'm at work & no time to give you a long post.

[kg0208]

Coz I'm at work & no time to give you a long post.
Doubtful.

You may very well be at work. But your response to Brooklyn was long. And you neglected all the info I am asking for in that post. You posted a boxrec link for Sanchez and his foes, and you elaborated on Pacquiao's resume. I stand by my initial assessment. Especially since instead of posting to me 3 seperate times, you could have answered the question by now.

[Sweet Pea]

Sanchez beat a green Nelson in Nelsons 10th pro fight.. And it wasnt easy..Nelson would have wrecked him abit later.How so? That Nelson gave Sanchez problems for a few reasons. One being his constant pressure, which a prime Nelson didn't use in the same manner, but rather opted to box and become a more well-rounded fighter. That style plays more into Sanchez's hands, as he was a better boxer than Nelson would ever be. Second, as has been discussed, Sanchez fought often to the level of his competition, and had to adapt to Nelson during their fight, as he likely didn't take him as seriously off the bat as he did someone like Gomez. I used to think similarly to what you just said, but when you look at it closer, it's not that simple at all.


Gomez was superb at 122..but he stepped up and never did well at 126..got blown out by Nelson as well
A far past his prime Gomez lost at 130 to Nelson. Gomez was the top P4P fighter in the world when he stepped up 4 pounds to face Sanchez.


Otherswise sanchez struggled with his other title defenses...
Such as? He struggled early on, pre-prime with guys like Badillo, and in one of his defenses against Cowdell, but once again, fought to the level of his competition, and looked his best when faced with the best, such as Gomez and Lopez.


He was a great fighter but was Diefied when he died just like everyone else famous who died early..I can understand that
Such as Pancho Villa?

[1lehudson]

Sanchez beat a green Nelson in Nelsons 10th pro fight.. And it wasnt easy..Nelson would have wrecked him abit later.

Gomez was superb at 122..but he stepped up and never did well at 126..got blown out by Nelson as well

Otherswise sanchez struggled with his other title defenses...

He was a great fighter but was Diefied when he died just like everyone else famous who died early..I can understand thatWell Pac was knockedout when he was a younger fighter, and hasnt had it easy with past thier prime fighters.

One thing that you are forgetting to mention.....Nelsons is one of the greateast fighters ever at 126. Young or not he was a great fighter. There has been plenty times when a young fighter that went on to become great has beat a older great fighter later in his career.

Robinson beat Armstrong, Lamotta and Zivic all in his first three years as a pro.

Leonard beat Benitez and Duran in his first three years as a pro.

Point being its nothing to be ashamed of for Sanchez to have a tough fight with a young Nelson. Its more shameful that Pac was knockedout by two nobodies.:good

[PacDbest]

Doubtful.

You may very well be at work. But your response to Brooklyn was long. And you neglected all the info I am asking for in that post. You posted a boxrec link for Sanchez and his foes, and you elaborated on Pacquiao's resume. I stand by my initial assessment. Especially since instead of posting to me 3 seperate times, you could have answered the question by now.
Coz early in the morning I'm not busy. I'm busy now. see u later guys.

[kg0208]

Coz early in the morning I'm not busy. I'm busy now. see u later guys.
Except that it follows the same pattern you always do. You'll never answer the question I asked. That's fine....it was amusing to watch your tip toe around it.

[huki]

Coz early in the morning I'm not busy. I'm busy now. see u later guys. Owned. :lol:

It's obvious Pacquiao's set of wins are inferior to Sanchez's (plus one of those "wins" should be a loss) and it's even more obvious Sanchez would have destroyed any version of Pac. Pacquiao's biggest win by far is the first MAB fight. Without that fight, Pacquiao's set of wins are not great enough to even make him a top 100 ATG. Beating Casamayor wouldn't mean anything IMO because I believe Casamayor is nearly shot, but beating Juan Diaz, Campbell, or Guzman would be very big.. the biggest win since the MAB one in 2001.

[jupzrooni]

Except that it follows the same pattern you always do. You'll never answer the question I asked. That's fine....it was amusing to watch your tip toe around it.

LOL on PacDBESt always relying on boxrec when it comes to boxer's records

[puga_ni_nana]

Yes, but MOST believed he was shot. He was considered past it a bit when he fought MAB the 3rd time, and others had mentioned his slowing down. This wasn't in hindsight, as it was noticable that it WASN'T the weight because he was unsucessful just 5lbs higher. His body had broken down....He lost 5 of his last 6 fights. That is the very definition of a shot fighter.

in hindsight you can say that he was a shot fighter because he lost 5 of his last 6 fights, 3 of them was a war against pac. he was past his prime after the barrera trilogy but no no way he was shot when he beaten pac the 1st time. during the raheem fight, the issue was still primary the weight coz morales fought over the weight limit even at 135. i don't deny that he is past his prime but that morales who fought pac the 2nd time around can still beat any top 130 pounder during that time. saying morales was shot there is a convenient way to discredit pac's win and preserve morales' indestructible image whom only a barrera can beat.

[jupzrooni]

in hindsight you can say that he was a shot fighter because he lost 5 of his last 6 fights, 3 of them was a war against pac. he was past his prime after the barrera trilogy but no no way he was shot when he beaten pac the 1st time. during the raheem fight, the issue was still primary the weight coz morales fought over the weight limit even at 135. i don't deny that he is past his prime but that morales who fought pac the 2nd time around can still beat any top 130 pounder during that time. saying morales was shot there is a convenient way to discredit pac's win and preserve morales' indestructible image whom only a barrera can beat.

:good

[kg0208]

in hindsight you can say that he was a shot fighter because he lost 5 of his last 6 fights, 3 of them was a war against pac. he was past his prime after the barrera trilogy but no no way he was shot when he beaten pac the 1st time. during the raheem fight, the issue was still primary the weight coz morales fought over the weight limit even at 135. i don't deny that he is past his prime but that morales who fought pac the 2nd time around can still beat any top 130 pounder during that time. saying morales was shot there is a convenient way to discredit pac's win and preserve morales' indestructible image whom only a barrera can beat.
It isn't convenient. I said he was shot before he fought Pacquaio the FIRST time. I could just as easily say it is convenient to dismiss the fact that he lost 5 of his last 6. And while 2 of those were to Pacquiao and one was to Barrera (a far past it MAB), he also lost to Raheem and David Diaz, neither of which is a great fighter, or really even good fighters. They are above average guys. One's Morales would have beaten easily in his prime or even slightly past it. Everything points to him being shot. Weight issues while applicable, only go so far. He couldn't make 130 OR 135? No, he could make 135....he made it against Diaz. He just wasn't the same fighter.

I don't care one bit about preserving Morales "indestructable" image. Never have. He never was indestructable and I can think of a few fighters in each division he was in that could beat him besides MAB.

[puga_ni_nana]

It isn't convenient. I said he was shot before he fought Pacquaio the FIRST time. I could just as easily say it is convenient to dismiss the fact that he lost 5 of his last 6. And while 2 of those were to Pacquiao and one was to Barrera (a far past it MAB), he also lost to Raheem and David Diaz, neither of which is a great fighter, or really even good fighters. They are above average guys.

I don't care one bit about preserving Morales "indestructable" image. Never have.


i don't know about everyone's definition of a shot fighter but can you please define yours?

[El Puma]

Except that it follows the same pattern you always do. You'll never answer the question I asked. That's fine....it was amusing to watch your tip toe around it.I have seen a beating like that since Sweet Pea laid the law down in the Classic forum.:yikes

[El Puma]

i don't know about everyone's definition of a shot fighter but can you please define yours?Losing 5 of your last 6 is a good start.

[puga_ni_nana]

Losing 5 of your last 6 is a good start.

without the benefit of hindsight. how do we know that a fighter was shot? for example, is pac now shot because he had a close fight with marquez? is marquez shot now because he was kd in his last few fights.

i'll repeat that i'm not an expert. i first encountered the word "shot" a few years ago. am i under the impression that we can only correctly label a fighter shot after he retires? is casamayor shot now?

[kg0208]

i don't know about everyone's definition of a shot fighter but can you please define yours?

A fighter who's reflexes are no longer close to what they were, who's body clearly no longer cooperates with the process of fighting at the level or the level below what they fought before. Jones Jr is a perfect example of a shot fighter, despite his recent wins.

The problem is, most people don't see the downslide of a fighter until he is well past it so someone saying he is "shot" always comes as a shock.

Example. MAB was past his prime before he fought Hamed. He adjusted his style a bit, much like Hopkins. Jones Jr was on the decline since 2001. No one noticed until he came down from HW. Pacquiao is currently on the decline, due to the same reasons Morales and MAB were on the decline in their late 20's.

[kg0208]

without the benefit of hindsight. how do we know that a fighter was shot? for example, is pac now shot because he had a close fight with marquez? is marquez shot now because he was kd in his last few fights.

i'll repeat that i'm not an expert. i first encountered the word "shot" a few years ago. am i under the impression that we can only correctly label a fighter shot after he retires? is casamayor shot now?

Casamayor is very close to being shot if he isn't already. His legs are no longer what they were, nor are his reflexes.

Most fighters decline at a steady rate and at first no one notices. Then it becomes noticable, then you can tell they are no longer close to what they were. Then they are shot.

SOME fighter, few actually, get old overnight. It's rare, but I have seen it happen. Sometimes it's age, or lack of training (Riddick Bowe got old overnight)

[El Puma]

without the benefit of hindsight. how do we know that a fighter was shot? for example, is pac now shot because he had a close fight with marquez? is marquez shot now because he was kd in his last few fights.

i'll repeat that i'm not an expert. i first encountered the word "shot" a few years ago. am i under the impression that we can only correctly label a fighter shot after he retires? is casamayor shot now? *sigh* There are certain levels of downward sloping in a fighters career and Erik's was evident in losing to Barrera the third time out. Many were concerned about Erik going into the first fight with Pac due to the previous bouts he had.

[PacDbest]

LOL on PacDBESt always relying on boxrec when it comes to boxer's records

jups & Huki, Answer me this, I know you guys are young & weren't born yet during the Sanchez era. How did you learned about Sanchez???

[Asterion]

Very close.

I'd choose Salvador Sanchez.

[puga_ni_nana]

A fighter who's reflexes are no longer close to what they were, who's body clearly no longer cooperates with the process of fighting at the level or the level below what they fought before. Jones Jr is a perfect example of a shot fighter, despite his recent wins.

The problem is, most people don't see the downslide of a fighter until he is well past it so someone saying he is "shot" always comes as a shock.

Example. MAB was past his prime before he fought Hamed. He adjusted his style a bit, much like Hopkins. Jones Jr was on the decline since 2001. No one noticed until he came down from HW. Pacquiao is currently on the decline, due to the same reasons Morales and MAB were on the decline in their late 20's.


the problem with that defenition is you have set a standard for which a fighter must perform. or it has to be a series of bad performance to know someone is shot? by your definition a lot of fighters are in a shot condition now. do you consider the barrera that fought marquez shot or way before it? how do you distinguish a shot fighter or just a past his prime fighter? am sorry for the questions but i sincerely need an answer, its not to test you or anything.

[kg0208]

Very close.

I'd choose Salvador Sanchez.

I agree....and only the Gomez win elevates Sanchez over Pacquiao.

[Sweet Pea]

jups & Huki, Answer me this, I know you guys are young & weren't born yet during the Sanchez era. How did you learned about Sanchez???I can assure you it wasn't boxrec, and as has been said numerous times, looking at the opponent's record doesn't fully do a fighter justice, especially considering how certain fans aren't familiar with the majority of an opponent's resume in the first place, you being a prime example.

You do your best to understand the ins and outs of Pac's resume but noone else's, which is why you're never taken seriously.

[PacDbest]

I agree....and only the Gomez win elevates Sanchez over Pacquiao.

Answer me this. Aside from your Grandpa's story, How did you learned about Sanchez, Gomez & all those Great feathers in that era???

[puga_ni_nana]

Casamayor is very close to being shot if he isn't already. His legs are no longer what they were, nor are his reflexes.

Most fighters decline at a steady rate and at first no one notices. Then it becomes noticable, then you can tell they are no longer close to what they were. Then they are shot.

SOME fighter, few actually, get old overnight. It's rare, but I have seen it happen. Sometimes it's age, or lack of training (Riddick Bowe got old overnight)


ok no need to answer my previous post. i got what you mean.
but still labelling morales shot even before his bout with pac is quite amazing to believe.

[kg0208]

the problem with that defenition is you have set a standard for which a fighter must perform. or it has to be a series of bad performance to know someone is shot? by your definition a lot of fighters are in a shot condition now. do you consider the barrera that fought marquez shot or way before it? how do you distinguish a shot fighter or just a past his prime fighter? am sorry for the questions but i sincerely need an answer, its not to test you or anything.
The fighter sets the standard over a long period of time. If over a number of fights they no longer perform to this level, they are in decline. And it is not the OUTCOME of the fight in which they were in, but how they perform in the fight themselves.

Edit: saw you understood my point of view. I am not saying it's correct. It is how I choose to see things. Some may disagree, others may not.

[kg0208]

Answer me this. Aside from your Grandpa's story, How did you learned about Sanchez, Gomez & all those Great feathers in that era???

No. You answer my questions for once instead of changing the subject.

[puga_ni_nana]

*sigh* There are certain levels of downward sloping in a fighters career and Erik's was evident in losing to Barrera the third time out. Many were concerned about Erik going into the first fight with Pac due to the previous bouts he had.

i see. so do you feel it was a shot morales by the time he fought pac the 1st and 2nd time? what do you think were his chances of winning against pac at that time?

i saw back then the fight, and imo it was won by barrera because of his determination and not because morales was shot or anything.

[kg0208]

ok no need to answer my previous post. i got what you mean.
but still labelling morales shot even before his bout with pac is quite amazing to believe.

Watch MAB vs Morales 1 & 2. The watch the 3rd bout. There is a big difference.

[PacDbest]

No. You answer my questions for once instead of changing the subject.

You have to answer me first because you, Huki & Jups are discrediting me for using Boxrec as reference. Now tell me how you've learn about these fighters??? By old tales, by boxrec, By wiki, by boxing Mag, or by youtube, etc??? I have to know where are you basing your knowledge???

[Asterion]

I agree....and only the Gomez win elevates Sanchez over Pacquiao.


:nod

[kg0208]

You have to answer me first because you, Huki & Jups are discrediting me for using Boxrec as reference. Now tell me how you've learn about these fighters??? By old tales, by boxrec, By wiki, by boxing Mag, or by youtube, etc??? I have to know where are you basing your knowledge???
I don't have to do a thing.

I discredited you for ONLY using boxrec AND for talking up the circumstances surrounding Pacquiao's fights and the fighters to elevate them, but dismissing Sanchez's opponents without knowing anything about the fighters or how they were perceived at the time of the fights, and just using their records.

Case and point. Beating Gomez when Sanchez did was a HUGE win. No one cared that he was coming up in weight.

[Sweet Pea]

You have to answer me first because you, Huki & Jups are discrediting me for using Boxrec as reference. Now tell me how you've learn about these fighters??? By old tales, by boxrec, By wiki, by boxing Mag, or by youtube, etc??? I have to know where are you basing your knowledge???Fool, you're missing the point. He's discrediting you for using Boxrec, not the rest of the internet. Boxrec only gives you a fighter's record, not the whole story behind the fight or the fighters. It is a good reference, but if you think you'll find out all you need to find out about a fighter from boxrec you're thoroughly mistaken.

[chimba]

I agree....and only the Gomez win elevates Sanchez over Pacquiao.

How so.?

When it was Gomez who went up in weight and lost

while Pac went up in weight and beat MAB?

both same circumstances 122 to 126

[puga_ni_nana]

Watch MAB vs Morales 1 & 2. The watch the 3rd bout. There is a big difference.

i saw it, the difference is they are quite faster. maybe because of youth. its the same with pac. quite faster in 122 compared to the one who fought morales. maybe because of youth, maybe because of weight. but still doesn't warrant to be called a shot fighter. by your definition now, i can feel that pac is now a shot fighter. pac is way past his prime now but i would not call him shot by any means.

[El Puma]

How so.?

When it was Gomez who went up in weight and lost

while Pac went up in weight and beat MAB?

both same circumstances 122 to 126Pac beat a declining Barrera while Gomez was a top#2 p4p fighter on a monsterous tear and the favorite going into the bout with Sanchez.

[El Puma]

i saw it, the difference is they are quite faster. maybe because of youth. its the same with pac. quite faster in 122 compared to the one who fought morales. maybe because of youth, maybe because of weight. but still doesn't warrant to be called a shot fighter. by your definition now, i can feel that pac is now a shot fighter. pac is way past his prime now but i would not call him shot by any means.I believe he is refering to the gradual decline more so than being shot. The Morales in the Rahim fight is clearly shot.

[kg0208]

How so.?

When it was Gomez who went up in weight and lost

while Pac went up in weight and beat MAB?

both same circumstances 122 to 126

No one cared that Gomez went up in weight. It was never a consideration at the time.

Gomez was prime and thought to be unbeatable. MAB was still a great fighter, not at his peak AND no one thought he was unbeatable. The circumstances are entirely different. And I would venture to say that Gomez was regarded higher P4P than MAB was when he lost to Pacquaio.

Why so much emphasis in going up in weight in relation to this fight? This is not like when DLH went up to fight Hopkins or something.

[puga_ni_nana]

How so.?

When it was Gomez who went up in weight and lost

while Pac went up in weight and beat MAB?

both same circumstances 122 to 126


imo, it was because they rated gomez more highly than barrera. the barrera that fought pac a little past his prime and was defeated while gomez even if he is at a size and weight disadvantage was undefeated during that time.

i have no problem with that. the only problem is when people say that their resume is not even close. it's not only unfair to pac, it's also unfair with barrera, morales and marquez.

[chimba]

Pac beat a declining Barrera while Gomez was a top#2 p4p fighter on a monsterous tear and the favorite going into the bout with Sanchez.

You cant say Mab was declining but was still prime he beat Erik afterwards and was champion again in 2 years time...

Gomez had his moments against Sal... Pac basically humiliated MAB...

all Im saying is that its hard to compare eras..I for one doesnt like it unless its obvious like Hearns vs Floyd at 147..

Had Sal..for example lost to Nelson in the rematch that would have certainly change perspective.. Fact is Nelson doesnt get half the credit that Sanchez gets in these boards..I wonder why?

[Sweet Pea]

No one cared that Gomez went up in weight. It was never a consideration at the time.

Gomez was prime and thought to be unbeatable. MAB was still a great fighter, not at his peak AND no one thought he was unbeatable. The circumstances are entirely different. And I would venture to say that Gomez was regarded higher P4P than MAB was when he lost to Pacquaio.

Why so much emphasis in going up in weight in relation to this fight? This is not like when DLH went up to fight Hopkins or something.Easily, he was considered #1 at the time.

[kg0208]

i saw it, the difference is they are quite faster. maybe because of youth. its the same with pac. quite faster in 122 compared to the one who fought morales. maybe because of youth, maybe because of weight. but still doesn't warrant to be called a shot fighter. by your definition now, i can feel that pac is now a shot fighter. pac is way past his prime now but i would not call him shot by any means.

You keep saying by my definition, but then you say something else which that demonstrates that you don't get my definition at all.

MAB and Morales III was fought on an entire diffrent level than the first two. Neither had their legs, neither had the old fire. Neither had reflexes they had before, and it was noticable to a high degree.

Pacquaio has not shown anywhere near that decline. He still has his legs and most of his reflexes. He doesn't have as much power and speed. He is also having a much harder time keeping weight off which is a sign he is declining. But he is not shot.

[kg0208]

You cant say Mab was declining but was still prime he beat Erik afterwards and was champion again in 2 years time...

Gomez had his moments against Sal... Pac basically humiliated MAB...

all Im saying is that its hard to compare eras..I for one doesnt like it unless its obvious like Hearns vs Floyd at 147..

Had Sal..for example lost to Nelson in the rematch that would have certainly change perspective.. Fact is Nelson doesnt get half the credit that Sanchez gets in these boards..I wonder why?

Not true at all. The alternative is to say that all fighters are prime until they lose. Then you will say that we only used it as an excuse BECAUSE he lost.

Hopkins has been champion for how long? He is no where near prime. Many great fighters are champions but past their prime.

[chimba]

No one cared that Gomez went up in weight. It was never a consideration at the time.

Gomez was prime and thought to be unbeatable. MAB was still a great fighter, not at his peak AND no one thought he was unbeatable. The circumstances are entirely different. And I would venture to say that Gomez was regarded higher P4P than MAB was when he lost to Pacquaio.

Why so much emphasis in going up in weight in relation to this fight? This is not like when DLH went up to fight Hopkins or something.

Lets start wth the premise that Gomez was #2 and Mab was p4p #4..How much is a different is that?

Yes but you cannot escape the fact the PAc was the one who went up and beat Mab..Sal wasnt the one who went up to Gomez. And couple that with the point that the fighter with the disadvantage (and yes its a disadvantage for teh guy to come up) won in PACs case..it reinforces the argument for him.

Also how successful was Gomez at 126...that should be a factor as well as to how a great fighter like Gomez carries the extra weight.
Because if he became a monster at 126 as well and then Sal beat him..that would enhance the argument for Sal

[puga_ni_nana]

I believe he is refering to the gradual decline more so than being shot. The Morales in the Rahim fight is clearly shot.

raheem was quite a good fighter. and his style is quite hard to handle. morales is moving up in weight and even had a problem going making 135. his sloppiness could be attributed more to weight issues than being shot.

[chimba]

Not true at all. The alternative is to say that all fighters are prime until they lose. Then you will say that we only used it as an excuse BECAUSE he lost.

Hopkins has been champion for how long? He is no where near prime. Many great fighters are champions but past their prime.

Ok now you are saying that MAB who Pac beat was no longer prime?? Ok whatever you say Ill agree...

then with the way he got dominated..what Prime years of MAB will you say would have beaten Pac at the time...coz frankly MAB was dominated every round..you think in his prime Mab would have won 8 rounds or so??

[El Puma]

You cant say Mab was declining but was still prime he beat Erik afterwards and was champion again in 2 years time...

Gomez had his moments against Sal... Pac basically humiliated MAB...

all Im saying is that its hard to compare eras..I for one doesnt like it unless its obvious like Hearns vs Floyd at 147..

Had Sal..for example lost to Nelson in the rematch that would have certainly change perspective.. Fact is Nelson doesnt get half the credit that Sanchez gets in these boards..I wonder why?:huhHow does Nelson NOT get enough credit on these boards?

MAB prime in 1st pac bout?:nono He was fighting past prime fighters in Tapia and Kevin Kelley and looked slower yet more technical than 4 years prior.

Sal may not have lost to Nelson in a rematch due to his ability to fight up to the level of his comp. It is however his tendancy to fight down to the level of his comp that contributed to his struggle against Nelson.

[puga_ni_nana]

You keep saying by my definition, but then you say something else which that demonstrates that you don't get my definition at all.

MAB and Morales III was fought on an entire diffrent level than the first two. Neither had their legs, neither had the old fire. Neither had reflexes they had before, and it was noticable to a high degree.

Pacquaio has not shown anywhere near that decline. He still has his legs and most of his reflexes. He doesn't have as much power and speed. He is also having a much harder time keeping weight off which is a sign he is declining. But he is not shot.


well i'm confused again. can you define when did barrera declined and did he approached the level of being shot? if so when was it in your opinion?

[chimba]

:huhHow does Nelson NOT get enough credit on these boards?

MAB prime in 1st pac bout?:nono He was fighting past prime fighters in Tapia and Kevin Kelley and looked slower yet more technical than 4 years prior.

Sal may not have lost to Nelson in a rematch due to his ability to fight up to the level of his comp. It is however his tendancy to fight down to the level of his comp that contributed to his struggle against Nelson.

See this thing fighting to the level of competition is quite a ridiculous concept.. I was bad tonight because you were bad...really?

I am neither for PAc or Sanchez..all Im saying is this..You cannot find a reasonable conclusion to whose resume is better..it is not that simple..

If you say that Salvador will mop the ring with PAC..that actually is better because it is a more direct argument..that plays into your (or mines) bias

[El Puma]

raheem was quite a good fighter. and his style is quite hard to handle. morales is moving up in weight and even had a problem going making 135. his sloppiness could be attributed more to weight issues than being shot.As was stated before, having trouble making 135 when you have been a career 122-126lber speaks volumes about how much Erik was declining physically and mentally.

Raheem had a style to trouble Erik yes, but for such a poor showing to come from Morales had to have raised many a eyebrow and questions regarding how much he really had left.

[kg0208]

Lets start wth the premise that Gomez was #2 and Mab was p4p #4..How much is a different is that?

Yes but you cannot escape the fact the PAc was the one who went up and beat Mab..Sal wasnt the one who went up to Gomez. And couple that with the point that the fighter with the disadvantage (and yes its a disadvantage for teh guy to come up) won in PACs case..it reinforces the argument for him.

Also how successful was Gomez at 126...that should be a factor as well as to how a great fighter like Gomez carries the extra weight.
Because if he became a monster at 126 as well and then Sal beat him..that would enhance the argument for Sal
BS. Going up in weight is not always a disadvantage. It's a case by case basis. It's easy for you as a Pacquiao fan to try and lay that down, but it simply isn't true. You think Trinidad was at a disadvantage when he went up to face Vargas? Or Jones when he went up to face Toney? They had naturally grown into that weight class.

And yes, Gomez P4P #2 (I think he was regarded as the best, not #2) is better than MAB's #4 by a significant margin. Much like PBF's P4P#1 is not equal to RJJ's #1 ranking.

[kg0208]

Ok now you are saying that MAB who Pac beat was no longer prime?? Ok whatever you say Ill agree...

then with the way he got dominated..what Prime years of MAB will you say would have beaten Pac at the time...coz frankly MAB was dominated every round..you think in his prime Mab would have won 8 rounds or so??

Don't play stupid with me Chimba. Every couple of months, you get a Pac bug up your ass and forget conversations past.

First off, I have always said that MAB was past his prime when he fought Hamed, not to mention Pacquaio. He changed his style to compensate.

Secondly, I have ALWAYS said, and YOU AGREED, that a Prime MAB gets beaten WORSE by Pacquiao because his style would have been too agressive and he would have gotten KO'd earlier.

MAB can be prime and not beat Pacquiao. I never once said he was a better fighter than Pacquiao. You are incorporating scenarios that have little to do with the discussion.

[El Puma]

See this thing fighting to the level of competition is quite a ridiculous concept.. I was bad tonight because you were bad...really?

I am neither for PAc or Sanchez..all Im saying is this..You cannot find a reasonable conclusion to whose resume is better..it is not that simple..

If you say that Salvador will mop the ring with PAC..that actually is better because it is a more direct argument..that plays into your (or mines) biasThe thing is, i rarely have a bias and announce it when i do. The fact is Pac has enough tools to prevent getting "mopped" by the past greats.

The fighting to the level of comp means (imho) that a fighter was not properly motivated by the opponent at the time and thus, didnt bother to bring his "A" game to the table. Thus, having a night of trouble against a spirited opponent.

[chimba]

BS. Going up in weight is not always a disadvantage. It's a case by case basis. It's easy for you as a Pacquiao fan to try and lay that down, but it simply isn't true. You think Trinidad was at a disadvantage when he went up to face Vargas? Or Jones when he went up to face Toney? They had naturally grown into that weight class.

PAC could have fought at 122 but Murad was the one who wanted him up for big money..Its known everywhere that HBO was salivating at the thought of Pac vs. the big three..

But youre right...when Pac went up to 126 to face MAB..the advantage was on PAC since he was faster and stronger at 126 anyways:good but like you say its a case by case basis..In this case you knew MAB was in trouble 126 was Pacs lucky number

[puga_ni_nana]

As was stated before, having trouble making 135 when you have been a career 122-126lber speaks volumes about how much Erik was declining physically and mentally.

Raheem had a style to trouble Erik yes, but for such a poor showing to come from Morales had to have raised many a eyebrow and questions regarding how much he really had left.

i saw the fight and raheem just fought a good fight plan. he box morales and keep running on his bike. morales was not in his best condition there because he had trouble with his conditioning (weight issue). he failed to cut the always runnning raheem.

[chimba]

Don't play stupid with me Chimba. Every couple of months, you get a Pac bug up your ass and forget conversations past.

First off, I have always said that MAB was past his prime when he fought Hamed, not to mention Pacquaio. He changed his style to compensate.

Secondly, I have ALWAYS said, and YOU AGREED, that a Prime MAB gets beaten WORSE by Pacquiao because his style would have been too agressive and he would have gotten KO'd earlier.

MAB can be prime and not beat Pacquiao. I never once said he was a better fighter than Pacquiao. You are incorporating scenarios that have little to do with the discussion.

lol ..just in a happy mood...great night for mMA..what a fight..truthfully I admit..i get hyped up for BJ Penn than PAC by a mile..Cant wait for BJ to kick Sherks ass boiii!

[kg0208]

well i'm confused again. can you define when did barrera declined and did he approached the level of being shot? if so when was it in your opinion?

You're confused because you are relating wins and ranking to primes.

MAB had been fighting for 14 years when he fought Pacquaiao. And much of that time he had been fighting an "in your face" warring style. Notice that most of these fighters are past their prime by their late 20's early 30's.

MAB was prime until about 1999, maybe 2000. He was at his best at 122.

Pacquaio would have beaten him worse in his prime because of MAB's prime style.

[kg0208]

lol ..just in a happy mood...great night for mMA..what a fight..truthfully I admit..i get hyped up for BJ Penn than PAC by a mile..Cant wait for BJ to kick Sherks ass boiii!

I thought Sherk was out....like kicked out? Penn is a good fighter, though I admittedly like Silva as my fav in MMA.

[chimba]

The thing is, i rarely have a bias and announce it when i do. The fact is Pac has enough tools to prevent getting "mopped" by the past greats.

The fighting to the level of comp means (imho) that a fighter was not properly motivated by the opponent at the time and thus, didnt bother to bring his "A" game to the table. Thus, having a night of trouble against a spirited opponent.

Fair enough Puma..prime example is Benitez...actually no! because this fuckin guy parties hard the night before and still toys with his opponents ;lol..I see your point though:good

[chimba]

I thought Sherk was out....like kicked out? Penn is a good fighter, though I admittedly like Silva as my fav in MMA.

He was susp for a while but Dana needs him..hes a great heel for BJ..one more PPV..when BJ has choked or KO Sean back to Minnesota..Dana will release him quietly

[PacDbest]

Fool, you're missing the point. He's discrediting you for using Boxrec, not the rest of the internet. Boxrec only gives you a fighter's record, not the whole story behind the fight or the fighters. It is a good reference, but if you think you'll find out all you need to find out about a fighter from boxrec you're thoroughly mistaken.

I can't wait for your answers kids.

I was there watching this fights when I was a young teenager. Sanchez only becomes known after he beat the smaller Gomez. Those early 80s Ali, SRL, Hearns, Duran, Hagler, Holmes, Frazier, Arguello are the top P4P pounders & the main events. There's a lot of boxing on TV for free.

Because of Navarette I become interested with the Featherweights. Arguello, Mancini, Boza, Limon, chacon, Those guys are the stars in the lower Class. Sanchez only surfaced on Big time TV with the Gomez & Nelson fights. But still Chava never became the Man. That title really belongs to Arguello, who beats everybody in that era.

So this is from my recollection. Not a tale from my Dad or Grandpa. Not from the History book . Not from Boxrec. it's from my boxing experience in my younger days.

Fast forward today. Who's Pac Nowadays. The Man at the lower weight Class. The one holding the record for the best Money fight at 140 & below. P4P #2 & arguably #1, Beat 3 HOF, who at the fight day are considered Legend or HOFamer. Pac is way above in Popularity & a much significant in this era than Chava in his era.

Lets start with the best win: Pac-MAB 1 vs Chava-Gomez. Pac beating top 5 P4p MAB was more impressive coz he's the one moving up in weight. Gomez is the one moving up, what's impressive in beating a smaller man. After Chava, it's proven Gomez never carry his Power at the higher weight class.

I already said, Nelson was an unknown, 2 week replacement & Green fighter going into Chava fight. So what's so impressive about it??? He was expected to last 3 rds only, It end up in 14. So it's a dissapointing show for Chava coz he's expected to annihilate Azuma.

For comparison, this is the same as Pac fighting Lucero, but in this case Lucero last for 14 rds then become great after wards. One more sample. What if Pac beat Linares when he was 15-0(I know Linares will be a future great), will you give him Props??? Will you say it's a Great win???? I don't think so!!!

I'll post more of my research using wiki to supplement boxrec. I also review all this fight in youtube in the past. I know you kids just got it from there. I've seen history in the making. you young kids don't.:hi:

[puga_ni_nana]

You're confused because you are relating wins and ranking to primes.

MAB had been fighting for 14 years when he fought Pacquaiao. And much of that time he had been fighting an "in your face" warring style. Notice that most of these fighters are past their prime by their late 20's early 30's.

MAB was prime until about 1999, maybe 2000. He was at his best at 122.

Pacquaio would have beaten him worse in his prime because of MAB's prime style.

not really about wins. i consider the ring age and the wars that they went thru. well i understand it was a case to case basis. and you see that morales was shot while barrera was not. i prefer to see it that morales was not yet shot up until the 3rd fight with pac (which imo is still debatable).

[kg0208]

I can't wait for your answers kids.

I was there watching this fights when I was a young teenager. Sanchez only becomes known after he beat the smaller Gomez. Those early 80s Ali, SRL, Hearns, Duran, Hagler, Holmes, Frazier, Arguello are the top P4P pounders & the main events. There's a lot of boxing on TV for free.

Because of Navarette I become interested with the Featherweights. Arguello, Mancini, Boza, Limon, chacon, Those guys are the stars in the lower Class. Sanchez only surfaced on Big time TV with the Gomez & Nelson fights. But still Chava never became the Man. That title really belongs to Arguello, who beats everybody in that era.

So this is from my recollection. Not a tale from my Dad or Grandpa. Not from the History book . Not from Boxrec. it's from my boxing experience in my younger days.

Fast forward today. Who's Pac Nowadays. The Man at the lower weight Class. The one holding the record for the best Money fight at 140 & below. P4P #2 & arguably #1, Beat 3 HOF, who at the fight day are considered Legend or HOFamer. Pac is way above in Popularity & a much significant in this era than Chava in his era.

Lets start with the best win: Pac-MAB 1 vs Chava-Gomez. Pac beating top 5 P4p MAB was more impressive coz he's the one moving up in weight. Gomez is the one moving up, what's impressive in beating a smaller man. After Chava, it's proven Gomez never carry his Power at the higher weight class.

I already said, Nelson was an unknown, 2 week replacement & Green fighter going into Chava fight. So what's so impressive about it??? He was expected to last 3 rds only, It end up in 14. So it's a dissapointing show for Chava coz he's expected to annihilate Azuma.

For comparison, this is the same as Pac fighting Lucero, but in this case Lucero last for 14 rds then become great after wards. One more sample. What if Pac beat Linares when he was 15-0(I know Linares will be a future great), will you give him Props??? Will you say it's a Great win???? I don't think so!!!

I'll post more of my research using wiki to supplement boxrec. I also review all this fight in youtube in the past. I know you kids just got it from there. I've seen history in the making. you young kids don't.:hi:
Just keep quiet.

We waited for your answers "kid" and you didn't provide any. Playing the age card is kinda pathetic. Especially since you should know so much more if your age is an indication. Don't blame everyone else because your experience as a child in the sport was limited.

Gomez is the one moving up, what's impressive in beating a smaller man.
As for this laughable little nugget, let me remind you that you started a thread saying Hatton was ducking Pacquaio! And when people said he wasn't, you asked why he hadn't responded to Pacquiao's challenge if he wasn't ducking.

NOW, you ask "what's impressive about beating a smaller man"? But you blame Hatton for not responding to Pacquiao?:lol::lol::lol:

[1lehudson]

I can't wait for your answers kids.

I was there watching this fights when I was a young teenager. Sanchez only becomes known after he beat the smaller Gomez. Those early 80s Ali, SRL, Hearns, Duran, Hagler, Holmes, Frazier, Arguello are the top P4P pounders & the main events. There's a lot of boxing on TV for free.

Because of Navarette I become interested with the Featherweights. Arguello, Mancini, Boza, Limon, chacon, Those guys are the stars in the lower Class. Sanchez only surfaced on Big time TV with the Gomez & Nelson fights. But still Chava never became the Man. That title really belongs to Arguello, who beats everybody in that era.

So this is from my recollection. Not a tale from my Dad or Grandpa. Not from the History book . Not from Boxrec. it's from my boxing experience in my younger days.

Fast forward today. Who's Pac Nowadays. The Man at the lower weight Class. The one holding the record for the best Money fight at 140 & below. P4P #2 & arguably #1, Beat 3 HOF, who at the fight day are considered Legend or HOFamer. Pac is way above in Popularity & a much significant in this era than Chava in his era.

Lets start with the best win: Pac-MAB 1 vs Chava-Gomez. Pac beating top 5 P4p MAB was more impressive coz he's the one moving up in weight. Gomez is the one moving up, what's impressive in beating a smaller man. After Chava, it's proven Gomez never carry his Power at the higher weight class.

I already said, Nelson was an unknown, 2 week replacement & Green fighter going into Chava fight. So what's so impressive about it??? He was expected to last 3 rds only, It end up in 14. So it's a dissapointing show for Chava coz he's expected to annihilate Azuma.

For comparison, this is the same as Pac fighting Lucero, but in this case Lucero last for 14 rds then become great after wards. One more sample. What if Pac beat Linares when he was 15-0(I know Linares will be a future great), will you give him Props??? Will you say it's a Great win???? I don't think so!!!

I'll post more of my research using wiki to supplement boxrec. I also review all this fight in youtube in the past. I know you kids just got it from there. I've seen history in the making. you young kids don't.:hi:I got to the part were you said that Ali was a p4p top fighter in the 80's and stopped reading. You do know that Ali's last win came in 1978 and he only fought twice in the 1980's and lost both fights. That alone tells me that you have NO FUKKING clue about the history of boxing, and there for have NO business in this thread. Outside of being a totally biased PacBacker you know dick about boxing.:hey

[PacDbest]

I can't wait for your answers kids.

I was there watching this fights when I was a young teenager. Sanchez only becomes known after he beat the smaller Gomez. Those early 80s Ali, SRL, Hearns, Duran, Hagler, Holmes, Frazier, Arguello are the top P4P pounders & the main events. There's a lot of boxing on TV for free.

Because of Navarette I become interested with the Featherweights. Arguello, Mancini, Boza, Limon, chacon, Those guys are the stars in the lower Class. Sanchez only surfaced on Big time TV with the Gomez & Nelson fights. But still Chava never became the Man. That title really belongs to Arguello, who beats everybody in that era.

So this is from my recollection. Not a tale from my Dad or Grandpa. Not from the History book . Not from Boxrec. it's from my boxing experience in my younger days.

Fast forward today. Who's Pac Nowadays. The Man at the lower weight Class. The one holding the record for the best Money fight at 140 & below. P4P #2 & arguably #1, Beat 3 HOF, who at the fight day are considered Legend or HOFamer. Pac is way above in Popularity & a much significant in this era than Chava in his era.

Lets start with the best win: Pac-MAB 1 vs Chava-Gomez. Pac beating top 5 P4p MAB was more impressive coz he's the one moving up in weight. Gomez is the one moving up, what's impressive in beating a smaller man. After Chava, it's proven Gomez never carry his Power at the higher weight class.

I already said, Nelson was an unknown, 2 week replacement & Green fighter going into Chava fight. So what's so impressive about it??? He was expected to last 3 rds only, It end up in 14. So it's a dissapointing show for Chava coz he's expected to annihilate Azuma.

For comparison, this is the same as Pac fighting Lucero, but in this case Lucero last for 14 rds then become great after wards. One more sample. What if Pac beat Linares when he was 15-0(I know Linares will be a future great), will you give him Props??? Will you say it's a Great win???? I don't think so!!!

I'll post more of my research using wiki to supplement boxrec. I also review all this fight in youtube in the past. I know you kids just got it from there. I've seen history in the making. you young kids don't.:hi:

Here's what I dug from wiki so you guy can learn:



Sánchez started his career very young, as a teenager, and he started piling up wins against tough Mexican ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) opposition. His first fight of note came against the Mexican ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) bantamweight ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) champion Antonio Becerra ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), and Becerra proved far too experienced for the young Sánchez, dropping him in the first round, en route to a 12 round split decision. This would turn out to be Sánchez's last knockdown and loss suffered during his career.
Sánchez kept on fighting and moved to the Featherweight division. Soon he had beaten people like the Puerto Rican ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) featherweight champion Felix Trinidad Sr. ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), on his way to securing a title shot at world champion Danny "Little Red" Lopez ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), a popular TV fighter of the late 1970s ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) who was an impressive fighter and had won some spectacular fights against the likes of former world champion David Kotei ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) (twice), Juan Malvares ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) and Mike Ayala ([Only registered and activated users can see links]). Confident and hard to beat, Lopez was beaten by Sánchez, who knocked out the defending champion in 13 rounds in Phoenix, Arizona ([Only registered and activated users can see links]). Thinking it was just a case of 'beginner's luck ([Only registered and activated users can see links])' (as it was Sánchez's first world title fight ever) Lopez looked for a rematch and this he got, in Las Vegas ([Only registered and activated users can see links]). This time he lasted one more round.
After defeating the young future world champion Juan Laporte ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Sánchez embarked on a string of defenses against men like Patrick Ford ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) and Roberto Castanon ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), retaining his title each time. Then World Jr Featherweight champion Wilfredo Gómez ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) went up in weight and challenged Sánchez. Sánchez retained the crown by a knockout in round eight on August 21 ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), 1981 ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) in Las Vegas, and Gómez had to return to the Jr. Featherweight division.
With that victory, Salvador Sánchez was an unknown to the casual boxing ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) fan no more. He became a household name all over America ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) that night.
Two fights later, his defense vs unheralded Jorge "Rocky" Garcia ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) was the first fight featuring two featherweights ever to be televised by HBO ([Only registered and activated users can see links]). He beat Garcia punch after punch, but the challenger gave honor to his nickname, an unknown fighter who lasts the distance with the world champion.
Then came Azumah Nelson ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) at Madison Square Garden ([Only registered and activated users can see links]). The unknown Nelson came from Ghana ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) and would later become a 3 time world champion and a future hall of famer. He was unknown however, and was expected to only go a few rounds with the champ. It was an intense battle, with Sánchez managing to drop his young charge in the 7th round. After that they engaged in violent exchange after violent exchange. In the 15th, Sánchez broke out finally, connecting with a serious combination that dropped the challenger almost outside the ring. Referee Tony Perez ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) had to stop the fight seconds later.

[kg0208]

Here's what I dug from wiki because I don't know much myself

Fair enough.

[Lance_Uppercut]

Here's what I dug from wiki so you guy can learn:



Sánchez started his career very young, as a teenager, and he started piling up wins against tough Mexican ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) opposition. His first fight of note came against the Mexican ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) bantamweight ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) champion Antonio Becerra ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), and Becerra proved far too experienced for the young Sánchez, dropping him in the first round, en route to a 12 round split decision. This would turn out to be Sánchez's last knockdown and loss suffered during his career.
Sánchez kept on fighting and moved to the Featherweight division. Soon he had beaten people like the Puerto Rican ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) featherweight champion Felix Trinidad Sr. ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), on his way to securing a title shot at world champion Danny "Little Red" Lopez ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), a popular TV fighter of the late 1970s ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) who was an impressive fighter and had won some spectacular fights against the likes of former world champion David Kotei ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) (twice), Juan Malvares ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) and Mike Ayala ([Only registered and activated users can see links]). Confident and hard to beat, Lopez was beaten by Sánchez, who knocked out the defending champion in 13 rounds in Phoenix, Arizona ([Only registered and activated users can see links]). Thinking it was just a case of 'beginner's luck ([Only registered and activated users can see links])' (as it was Sánchez's first world title fight ever) Lopez looked for a rematch and this he got, in Las Vegas ([Only registered and activated users can see links]). This time he lasted one more round.
After defeating the young future world champion Juan Laporte ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Sánchez embarked on a string of defenses against men like Patrick Ford ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) and Roberto Castanon ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), retaining his title each time. Then World Jr Featherweight champion Wilfredo Gómez ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) went up in weight and challenged Sánchez. Sánchez retained the crown by a knockout in round eight on August 21 ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), 1981 ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) in Las Vegas, and Gómez had to return to the Jr. Featherweight division.
With that victory, Salvador Sánchez was an unknown to the casual boxing ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) fan no more. He became a household name all over America ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) that night.
Two fights later, his defense vs unheralded Jorge "Rocky" Garcia ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) was the first fight featuring two featherweights ever to be televised by HBO ([Only registered and activated users can see links]). He beat Garcia punch after punch, but the challenger gave honor to his nickname, an unknown fighter who lasts the distance with the world champion.
Then came Azumah Nelson ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) at Madison Square Garden ([Only registered and activated users can see links]). The unknown Nelson came from Ghana ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) and would later become a 3 time world champion and a future hall of famer. He was unknown however, and was expected to only go a few rounds with the champ. It was an intense battle, with Sánchez managing to drop his young charge in the 7th round. After that they engaged in violent exchange after violent exchange. In the 15th, Sánchez broke out finally, connecting with a serious combination that dropped the challenger almost outside the ring. Referee Tony Perez ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) had to stop the fight seconds later.

So? Pac was unknown prior to Barerra. Means?

[PacDbest]

Just keep quiet.

We waited for your answers "kid" and you didn't provide any. Playing the age card is kinda pathetic. Especially since you should know so much more if your age is an indication. Don't blame everyone else because your experience as a child in the sport was limited.


As for this laughable little nugget, let me remind you that you started a thread saying Hatton was ducking Pacquaio! And when people said he wasn't, you asked why he hadn't responded to Pacquiao's challenge if he wasn't ducking.

NOW, you ask "what's impressive about beating a smaller man"? But you blame Hatton for not responding to Pacquiao?:lol::lol::lol:

What ta fac has Hatton got to do with this Discusion??? Diversion??? KG style.

[puga_ni_nana]

I can't wait for your answers kids.

I was there watching this fights when I was a young teenager. Sanchez only becomes known after he beat the smaller Gomez. Those early 80s Ali, SRL, Hearns, Duran, Hagler, Holmes, Frazier, Arguello are the top P4P pounders & the main events. There's a lot of boxing on TV for free.

Because of Navarette I become interested with the Featherweights. Arguello, Mancini, Boza, Limon, chacon, Those guys are the stars in the lower Class. Sanchez only surfaced on Big time TV with the Gomez & Nelson fights. But still Chava never became the Man. That title really belongs to Arguello, who beats everybody in that era.

So this is from my recollection. Not a tale from my Dad or Grandpa. Not from the History book . Not from Boxrec. it's from my boxing experience in my younger days.

Fast forward today. Who's Pac Nowadays. The Man at the lower weight Class. The one holding the record for the best Money fight at 140 & below. P4P #2 & arguably #1, Beat 3 HOF, who at the fight day are considered Legend or HOFamer. Pac is way above in Popularity & a much significant in this era than Chava in his era.

Lets start with the best win: Pac-MAB 1 vs Chava-Gomez. Pac beating top 5 P4p MAB was more impressive coz he's the one moving up in weight. Gomez is the one moving up, what's impressive in beating a smaller man. After Chava, it's proven Gomez never carry his Power at the higher weight class.

I already said, Nelson was an unknown, 2 week replacement & Green fighter going into Chava fight. So what's so impressive about it??? He was expected to last 3 rds only, It end up in 14. So it's a dissapointing show for Chava coz he's expected to annihilate Azuma.

For comparison, this is the same as Pac fighting Lucero, but in this case Lucero last for 14 rds then become great after wards. One more sample. What if Pac beat Linares when he was 15-0(I know Linares will be a future great), will you give him Props??? Will you say it's a Great win???? I don't think so!!!

I'll post more of my research using wiki to supplement boxrec. I also review all this fight in youtube in the past. I know you kids just got it from there. I've seen history in the making. you young kids don't.:hi:


i agree on most points except comparing nelson to lucero. :lol:
if lucero dominated after pac demoilished him, there is a comparison.

over-all good post PacD. i just cant believe that some people are dismissing pac's accomplishment as downright inferior to sanchez without looking at whole scenario. it's not a shame to look at boxrec also but its best if you experienced it live by yourself.

[PacDbest]

Fair enough.

That's a foul!!! Changing my words.

[kg0208]

What ta fac has Hatton got to do with this Discusion??? Diversion??? KG style.
As opposed to how popular Sanchez was having to do with his resume? Or when and where he got his name recognition? Or how much money Pacquiao makes?

Or you not actually answering the original question I asked at any point in this thread?:deal

And now, you notice you didn't address what I said, because it makes you look like a jackass.

[PacDbest]

i agree on most points except comparing nelson to lucero. :lol:
if lucero dominated after pac demoilished him, there is a comparison.

over-all good post PacD. i just cant believe that some people are dismissing pac's accomplishment as downright inferior to sanchez without looking at whole scenario. it's not a shame to look at boxrec also but its best if you experienced it live by yourself.

You don't get it!!! Nelson coming as an unknown. Lucero has almost identical record going into the fight. An unknown or just chicken feed. that's what I'm comparing.

[kg0208]

You don't get it!!! Nelson coming as an unknown. Lucero has almost identical record going into the fight. An unknown or just chicken feed. that's what I'm comparing.
Which has nothing at all to do with how good a fighter they were. I believe you don't get it....he's got it, even though I don't agree with him.

[puga_ni_nana]

You don't get it!!! Nelson coming as an unknown. Lucero has almost identical record going into the fight. An unknown or just chicken feed. that's what I'm comparing.


ever heard of an improving resume even if your not fighting? cotto looked very good after quintana beats williams.

but as far as comparison, maybe yes. sanchez and his camp maybe don't expect a tough fight from this unknown (future great) fighter.

[PacDbest]

As opposed to how popular Sanchez was having to do with his resume? Or when and where he got his name recognition? Or how much money Pacquiao makes?

Or you not actually answering the original question I asked at any point in this thread?:deal

And now, you notice you didn't address what I said, because it makes you look like a jackass.

Did you read it all?? Did you understand my comparisons??? If not I'm not gonna waste time explaining it to an Ego maniac like you. I'll just gonna do my research, comparison & analysis. This for young guys who want to know more. In you case, I'm not gonna waste time with a Head case.

[kg0208]

Did you read it all?? Did you understand my comparisons??? If not I'm not gonna waste time explaining it to an Ego maniac like you. I'll just gonna do my research, comparison & analysis. This for young guys who want to know more. In you case, I'm not gonna waste time with a Head case.

You want to get into a name calling contest to deflect from the fact that you CAN'T respond to my posts.

Egomaniac lol, this from the guy who calls himself "Guru" and creates threads to brag about a prediction 6 or 7 times. :thumbsup

[brooklyn1550]

I was there watching this fights when I was a young teenager. Sanchez only becomes known after he beat the smaller Gomez. Those early 80s Ali, SRL, Hearns, Duran, Hagler, Holmes, Frazier, Arguello are the top P4P pounders & the main events. There's a lot of boxing on TV for free.

In the early 1980s, Ali and Frazier were not on the pound for pound lists. Frazier's only fight in the 80s was a draw with Jumbo Cummings while Ali lost to Holmes and Berbick.

Both were shot and had no business fighting.

Fast forward today. Who's Pac Nowadays. The Man at the lower weight Class. The one holding the record for the best Money fight at 140 & below. P4P #2 & arguably #1, Beat 3 HOF, who at the fight day are considered Legend or HOFamer. Pac is way above in Popularity & a much significant in this era than Chava in his era.

In today's era, Pacquiao generates more money than Sanchez did in his era. Why? Because promoters, PPVs, and the fact that ticket prices have gone up. It doesn't mean that his fights are more significant simply because of PPV buys and money.

Before the time of his death, I remember the talk about a Sanchez/Arguello superfight. This would have been a massive event to the casual fan and general sports fans. More people talked about a potential fight between the two than I heard people talk about the actual fights between Pacquiao and Marquez, Barrera, or Morales.

And bringing up popularity to argue greatness is so flawed, I don't even know where to begin. If popularity and PPV numbers equals greatness, then I guess Oscar De La Hoya is the GOAT. You brought up popularity to improve Pacquiao's ranking, when in reality, it does't mean a damn thing.

Lets start with the best win: Pac-MAB 1 vs Chava-Gomez. Pac beating top 5 P4p MAB was more impressive coz he's the one moving up in weight. Gomez is the one moving up, what's impressive in beating a smaller man. After Chava, it's proven Gomez never carry his Power at the higher weight class.

What impressive about beating a smaller man? I don't know, the fact that he's considered unbeatable by many, considered the best fighter in boxing, and all but one of his fights ended in a knockout.

At the time, Barrera was slipping. Still a great fighter, but slipping. He had many distractions leading up to the fight.

On that night, Gomez was a more dangerous man.

I already said, Nelson was an unknown, 2 week replacement & Green fighter going into Chava fight. So what's so impressive about it??? He was expected to last 3 rds only, It end up in 14. So it's a dissapointing show for Chava coz he's expected to annihilate Azuma.

Yes, at the time, Nelson wasn't considered a legitimate threat. By my own admission, I didn't even know who he was before he fought Sanchez. But the fact that Sanchez struggled shouldn't take away from his win. Nelson proved himself to be a great fighter and was never stopped again.

I'd take a green Nelson over a shot Morales and any version of Barrera. This win also surpasses the Marquez win for Pacquiao because Sanchez beat him convincingly whereas a majority of posters had Pacquiao losing.

I've seen history in the making. you young kids don't.

The younger posters on here haven't seen history in the making? Only you, and I, have?

These "kids" are all witnessing significant portions of Manny Pacquiao's career.

I guess you don't think that highly of Pacquiao then, for you not to consider these stages of his career history in the making.

[PacDbest]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Read this too. Sanchez vs Laporte.

Salvador Sanchez had a record of 37 wins, one loss and one draw, with 29 knockouts. He had won the WBC world Featherweight championship by defeating Danny Lopez by a thirteenth round knockout on February 2 of that year. He followed that win with defenses against Ruben Castillo, Lopez in a rematch and Patrick Ford. Despite the fact that Sanchez was a world champion, he had reached celebrity status only in his native Mexico and among hardcore boxing fans. It was when Sanchez beat Wilfredo Gómez that it can be said Sanchez gained full celebrity status.

On the other hand, Laporte was even lesser known than Sanchez, as even many among his fellow Puerto Ricans did not know him. He was known more than anywhere else in the New York area, having fought at the Madison Square Garden often during the early parts of his career. He sported a record of 15 wins and 1 loss, with 8 wins by knockout, coming into his bout with Sanchez.

[PacDbest]

:hi: You want to get into a name calling contest to deflect from the fact that you CAN'T respond to my posts.

Egomaniac lol, this from the guy who calls himself "Guru" and creates threads to brag about a prediction 6 or 7 times. :thumbsup

:hi: not wasting time.....

[Sweet Pea]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Read this too. Sanchez vs Laporte.

Salvador Sanchez had a record of 37 wins, one loss and one draw, with 29 knockouts. He had won the WBC world Featherweight championship by defeating Danny Lopez by a thirteenth round knockout on February 2 of that year. He followed that win with defenses against Ruben Castillo, Lopez in a rematch and Patrick Ford. Despite the fact that Sanchez was a world champion, he had reached celebrity status only in his native Mexico and among hardcore boxing fans. It was when Sanchez beat Wilfredo Gómez that it can be said Sanchez gained full celebrity status.

On the other hand, Laporte was even lesser known than Sanchez, as even many among his fellow Puerto Ricans did not know him. He was known more than anywhere else in the New York area, having fought at the Madison Square Garden often during the early parts of his career. He sported a record of 15 wins and 1 loss, with 8 wins by knockout, coming into his bout with Sanchez.What the fuck is your point? You're arguing that Pacquiao is better because his fans love him more? You're such a simple-minded fool. :patsch

[PacDbest]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

read this too. Sanchez-Gomez;

[kg0208]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Read this too. Sanchez vs Laporte.

Salvador Sanchez had a record of 37 wins, one loss and one draw, with 29 knockouts. He had won the WBC world Featherweight championship by defeating Danny Lopez by a thirteenth round knockout on February 2 of that year. He followed that win with defenses against Ruben Castillo, Lopez in a rematch and Patrick Ford. Despite the fact that Sanchez was a world champion, he had reached celebrity status only in his native Mexico and among hardcore boxing fans. It was when Sanchez beat Wilfredo Gómez that it can be said Sanchez gained full celebrity status.

On the other hand, Laporte was even lesser known than Sanchez, as even many among his fellow Puerto Ricans did not know him. He was known more than anywhere else in the New York area, having fought at the Madison Square Garden often during the early parts of his career. He sported a record of 15 wins and 1 loss, with 8 wins by knockout, coming into his bout with Sanchez.

Yes.....and? LaPorte was a FW champion after Sanchez beat him AND a top 10 Featherweight for nearly a decade.

You keep bringing up popularity as a measure of how good a fighter is. It certainly is not. But by all means, create criteria that helps Pacquiao stand out.

[kg0208]

:hi:

:hi: not wasting time.....

Code for I have no response.

Good to know.

[PacDbest]

What the fuck is your point? You're arguing that Pacquiao is better because his fans love him more? You're such a simple-minded fool. :patsch

read it analyse my previous post. I'm just backing my words by what's written in history.

[kg0208]

What the fuck is your point? You're arguing that Pacquiao is better because his fans love him more? You're such a simple-minded fool. :patsch

Look at his responses:rofl

PacDbest = Bigtime9 in his prime.

He simply creates a meaning for his position so that he has something to argue.

[El Puma]

What the fuck is your point? You're arguing that Pacquiao is better because his fans love him more? You're such a simple-minded fool. :patsch:rofl:rofl:roflBeat me to it.

[PacDbest]

Yes.....and? LaPorte was a FW champion after Sanchez beat him AND a top 10 Featherweight for nearly a decade.

You keep bringing up popularity as a measure of how good a fighter is. It certainly is not. But by all means, create criteria that helps Pacquiao stand out.

Top 10??? MAB, EM & JMM where are they rated??? #1, 2 , & 3 That's better than top 10. I told you guys Sanchez never beat the Man. That title belongs to Arguello. Pac beat the Man from 126-130. He has better resume. The only man Chava beat was Gomez, but he's the Bigger guy.

[PacDbest]

class dismiss!!!

[kg0208]

Top 10??? MAB, EM & JMM where are they rated??? #1, 2 , & 3 That's better than top 10. I told you guys Sanchez never beat the Man. That title belongs to Arguello. Pac beat the Man from 126-130. He has better resume. The only man Chava beat was Gomez, but he's the Bigger guy.

Run along......

[El Puma]

class dismiss!!!:-(:-(:-( Your so dumb it's sad.

[Sweet Pea]

Top 10??? MAB, EM & JMM where are they rated??? #1, 2 , & 3 That's better than top 10. I told you guys Sanchez never beat the Man. That title belongs to Arguello. Pac beat the Man from 126-130. He has better resume. The only man Chava beat was Gomez, but he's the Bigger guy.Just because you're unaware of the credentials of Nelson and Danny Lopez doesn't diminish them in any way. Lopez was arguably the most powerful puncher in Featherweight history(FYI, a lot more powerful than Pac) and Sal stopped him twice. He also stopped a Nelson who'd I'd have easily favored over any version of Pac based on styles, regardless of whether or not he was young. And let's not even get into Gomez, who was one of the most complete fighters of all time at his best(though he was better at 122). All stoppage wins for Sanchez.

On the other hand, Pacquiao recieves gifts against Marquez, loses to a fading Morales and wins in two rematches with an increasingly faded and shot Morales, and beats Barrera. If he had won by convincing stoppage against prime versions of all of them, you'd have a case for him, as it is now, you don't. Especially considering the Marquez fights.

[puga_ni_nana]

Top 10??? MAB, EM & JMM where are they rated??? #1, 2 , & 3 That's better than top 10. I told you guys Sanchez never beat the Man. That title belongs to Arguello. Pac beat the Man from 126-130. He has better resume. The only man Chava beat was Gomez, but he's the Bigger guy.

pacD, since you experienced it all, care to elaborate how fans back then think and rate gomez, sanchez and arguello with respect to each other? other senior posters can help pacD if you want.

[brooklyn1550]

class dismiss!!!

Way to run from this debate, which has yet to conclude:good

[PacDbest]

In the early 1980s, Ali and Frazier were not on the pound for pound lists. Frazier's only fight in the 80s was a draw with Jumbo Cummings while Ali lost to Holmes and Berbick.

Both were shot and had no business fighting.



In today's era, Pacquiao generates more money than Sanchez did in his era. Why? Because promoters, PPVs, and the fact that ticket prices have gone up. It doesn't mean that his fights are more significant simply because of PPV buys and money.

Before the time of his death, I remember the talk about a Sanchez/Arguello superfight. This would have been a massive event to the casual fan and general sports fans. More people talked about a potential fight between the two than I heard people talk about the actual fights between Pacquiao and Marquez, Barrera, or Morales.

And bringing up popularity to argue greatness is so flawed, I don't even know where to begin. If popularity and PPV numbers equals greatness, then I guess Oscar De La Hoya is the GOAT. You brought up popularity to improve Pacquiao's ranking, when in reality, it does't mean a damn thing.



What impressive about beating a smaller man? I don't know, the fact that he's considered unbeatable by many, considered the best fighter in boxing, and all but one of his fights ended in a knockout.

At the time, Barrera was slipping. Still a great fighter, but slipping. He had many distractions leading up to the fight.

On that night, Gomez was a more dangerous man.



Yes, at the time, Nelson wasn't considered a legitimate threat. By my own admission, I didn't even know who he was before he fought Sanchez. But the fact that Sanchez struggled shouldn't take away from his win. Nelson proved himself to be a great fighter and was never stopped again.

I'd take a green Nelson over a shot Morales and any version of Barrera. This win also surpasses the Marquez win for Pacquiao because Sanchez beat him convincingly whereas a majority of posters had Pacquiao losing.



The younger posters on here haven't seen history in the making? Only you, and I, have?

These "kids" are all witnessing significant portions of Manny Pacquiao's career.

I guess you don't think that highly of Pacquiao then, for you not to consider these stages of his career history in the making.

The question is who has a greater resume? My answer is Pac. Because He actually beat the man. And he did in an impressive way.

Saying Chava & ARguello was Planned is worthless coz it never Happened. What if Arguello actually won??? I guess we have nothing to discuss today about Chava & Pac.:hi:

[El Puma]

The question is who has a greater resume? My answer is Pac. Because He actually beat the man. And he did in an impressive way.

Saying Chava & ARguello was Planned is worthless coz it never Happened. What if Arguello actually won??? I guess we have nothing to discuss today about Chava & Pac.:hi:Again dumbass, its set of wins NOT overall resume.

Answer me this, who was closer to thier primes, Pacs opponents or Sal's?

[johnco]

wow, pacdbest braving the traditional cry baby losers

huki, el puma, brooklyn, hudson ... :lol: :lol: nothing new :rofl

cant blame them their heroes was whooped by
THE MAN---> PAC 3 time world champion, 3 time lineal champ.

[johnco]

Again dumbass, its set of wins NOT overall resume.

Answer me this, who was closer to thier primes, Pacs opponents or Sal's?

coming from you :lol: :lol: :lol:

[brooklyn1550]

Saying Chava & ARguello was Planned is worthless coz it never Happened. What if Arguello actually won??? I guess we have nothing to discuss today about Chava & Pac.

Again, you took my post out of context.

I didn't bring up a potential Sanchez/Arguello fight to add to my case as to why Sanchez's resume is better.

[brooklyn1550]

wow, pacdbest braving the traditional cry baby losers

huki, el puma, brooklyn, hudson ... :lol: :lol: nothing new :rofl

cant blame them their heroes was whooped by
THE MAN---> PAC 3 time world champion, 3 time lineal champ.

Dear johnco,

Please get the fuck off of ESB and get your dumbass back to Pacland.

Thanks!

[El Puma]

Dear johnco,

Please get the fuck off of ESB and get your dumbass back to Pacland.

Thanks!Don't waste your time with him. :good

[PacDbest]

pacD, since you experienced it all, care to elaborate how fans back then think and rate gomez, sanchez and arguello with respect to each other? other senior posters can help pacD if you want.

Arguello is the man, beats all popular fighters Mancini, Navarette, Limon, Chacon etc.

Here's how I rate by Popularity:

Ali
SRL, Duran, Hearns, Hagler
Frazier, Foreman, Holmes
Mancini, Chacon, Arguello, Boza, Navarette & Limon
Gomez, Benitez & Sanchez.

[brooklyn1550]

Don't waste your time with him. :good

Yeah, I'll let it be:lol:

[brooklyn1550]

Arguello is the man, beats all popular fighters Mancini, Navarette, Limon, Chacon etc.

Here's how I rate by Popularity:

Ali
SRL, Duran, Hearns, Hagler
Frazier, Foreman, Holmes
Mancini, Chacon, Arguello, Boza, Navarette & Limon
Gomez, Benitez & Sanchez.

Popularity doesn't equal greatness

[El Puma]

Arguello is the man, beats all popular fighters Mancini, Navarette, Limon, Chacon etc.

Here's how I rate by Popularity:

Ali
SRL, Duran, Hearns, Hagler
Frazier, Foreman, Holmes
Mancini, Chacon, Arguello, Boza, Navarette & Limon
Gomez, Benitez & Sanchez.:patsch:patsch:patschAGAIN with the popularity. Your last shred of credibility was lost when you refered to Ali as a p4p'r in the 80's.

Now your just tatooing "dumbass" on your forehead.

[johnco]

Dear johnco,

Please get the fuck off of ESB and get your dumbass back to Pacland.

Thanks!

Dear Brook,

Ive seen your hatred many times. Nothing new ;)

I am just here to tell you that depression of yours courtesy of pac whooping your heroes is creating a great deal in your part. :hi:

BTW, a prime pac will obliterate the great sanchez :good

you got crystal ball, i got mine :rofl

Ciao

[PacDbest]

Again dumbass, its set of wins NOT overall resume.

Answer me this, who was closer to thier primes, Pacs opponents or Sal's?

Read Boxrec & learn.

Nelson- green
Gomez- Small
Lopez- Old, was Koed twice before


JMM- best technician, P4P #3
MAB- Top 5 P4P, Man at 126. HOFamer
EM- P4P #7, Never been Koed by anybody except Pac.

[El Puma]

Read Boxrec & learn.

Nelson- green
Gomez- Small
Lopez- Old, was Koed twice before


JMM- best technician, P4P #3
MAB- Top 5 P4P, Man at 126. HOFamer
EM- P4P #7, Never been Koed by anybody except Pac.Boxrec:-(Why am i NOT surprised? Goodbye.

[PacDbest]

:patsch:patsch:patschAGAIN with the popularity. Your last shred of credibility was lost when you refered to Ali as a p4p'r in the 80's.

Now your just tatooing "dumbass" on your forehead.

This Popularity not P4P.

[kg0208]

Read Boxrec & learn.

Nelson- green
Gomez- Small
Lopez- Old, was Koed twice before


JMM- best technician, P4P #3
MAB- Top 5 P4P, Man at 126. HOFamer
EM- P4P #7, Never been Koed by anybody except Pac.

JMM, old, lost to unknown Chris John
MAB, slightly past it, was beaten 2 times by Jones
EM, old, lost 5 of his last 6 and was beaten by 2 above average fighters no one cares about.

Anyone can do that.

[PacDbest]

Boxrec:-(Why am i NOT surprised? Goodbye.

So where did you get your boxing knowledge???

[brooklyn1550]

Dear Brook,

Ive seen your hatred many times. Nothing new ;)

I am just here to tell you that depression of yours courtesy of pac whooping your heroes is creating a great deal in your part. :hi:

BTW, a prime pac will obliterate the great sanchez :good

you got crystal ball, i got mine :rofl

Ciao

Goodbye. I really don't have time for your nonsense.:good

[PacDbest]

JMM, old, lost to unknown Chris John
MAB, slightly past it, was beaten 2 times by Jones
EM, old, lost 5 of his last 6 and was beaten by 2 above average fighters no one cares about.

Anyone can do that.

Wait for the History books in How they write it. I'm sure it's not gonna like from a Philosopher like you.

[johnco]

Goodbye. I really don't have time for your nonsense.:good


and as if you have a sense too :lol: :lol:

get back at me if you know the mega lotto this coming tuesday. we'll be best of friends :good

[kg0208]

Wait for the History books in How they write it. I'm sure it's not gonna like from a Philosopher like you.

You quoted Wikipedia little kid. I can alter that page. It isn't a historical reference.

Besides, you think history books point out only what you did about those fighters? Grow up.

[brooklyn1550]

and as if you have a sense too :lol: :lol:

get back at me if you know the mega lotto this coming tuesday. we'll be best of friends :good

:hi:

[johnco]

Top 10??? MAB, EM & JMM where are they rated??? #1, 2 , & 3 That's better than top 10. I told you guys Sanchez never beat the Man. That title belongs to Arguello. Pac beat the Man from 126-130. He has better resume. The only man Chava beat was Gomez, but he's the Bigger guy.

damn pacdbest... you are smoking here and owning them :good

[PacDbest]

Boxrec:-(Why am i NOT surprised? Goodbye.

This internet age. those boxing fan who don't use Boxrec as reference can be called ignorant. boxrec is the best source of boxing history. It gives you the date, the records, the stats, The weight, the sequence of events, the lineage of title etc etc.

No wonder there's a lot of stupid guys here like you. Coz you don't know how to use this tool.:hi:

[sues2nd]

Why does Pac have this many votes????

[kg0208]

This internet age. those boxing fan who don't use Boxrec as reference can be called ignorant. boxrec is the best source of boxing history. It gives you the date, the records, the stats, The weight, the sequence of events, the lineage of title etc etc.

No wonder there's a lot of stupid guys here like you. Coz you don't know how to use this tool.:hi:

:rofl:rofl:rofl

[brooklyn1550]

This internet age. those boxing fan who don't use Boxrec as reference can be called ignorant. boxrec is the best source of boxing history. It gives you the date, the records, the stats, The weight, the sequence of events, the lineage of title etc etc.

No wonder there's a lot of stupid guys here like you. Coz you don't know how to use this tool.:hi:

Boxrec doesn't tell you the whole fight.

The best source: actual film

[PacDbest]

You quoted Wikipedia little kid. I can alter that page. It isn't a historical reference.

Besides, you think history books point out only what you did about those fighters? Grow up.

Try to alter it!!! I can back it up with boxrec data & from history books which is all available online.

Why do you have to alter it??? Coz you can't win an argument??? where's your facts, where's you data? Where's you source???:bbb

[kg0208]

Boxrec doesn't tell you the whole fight.

The best source: actual film

Oh my god!! You don't say!!

[johnco]

Why does Pac have this many votes????

1.because pac is 3 time world champ/3 time lineal champ
2. because pac whooped the 3 amigos all of whom are part of top ten pound per pound fighters. (they all kissed the canvass more than 10 times. :good
3. sal beat an upstart nelson, old lopez, and moving up gomez ;)

[brooklyn1550]

Oh my god!! You don't say!!

Well, I have to spell it out for some people.

[sues2nd]

I hate boxrec. Makes people like this guy think he knows about a fight just by seeing things like this...

Ramirez UD Whitaker

And yes, I used that one for a reason.

[kg0208]

Try to alter it!!! I can back it up with boxrec data & from history books which is all available online.

Why do you have to alter it??? Coz you can't win an argument??? where's your facts, where's you data? Where's you source???:bbb
Hmmm.....

One, I already won the argument. It's why you can't answer my questions and keep running off on something about popularity.

Two, my obvious point, to someone of minimal intelligence, was that you can't say "that history will write it different than me" and refer to Wikipedia as proof, when I can personally go an alter than site just like anyone else. Obviously then it wouldn't be written differently now would it?

Three, source, facts? You dismiss them all the time when its convenient. So lets not go there. You only use facts that help you.

[brooklyn1550]

3. sal beat an upstart nelson, old lopez, and moving up gomez ;)

Pac beat a shot Morales, an unfocused Barrera, an old Barrera, and didn't beat Marquez.

Anybody can play that game

[El Puma]

Boxrec doesn't tell you the whole fight.

The best source: actual filmIt also helps to read what other very intelligent UNBIASED posters have to say about boxing and learning from that when it comes time to form your own opinion. As opposed to blindly swinging off the ballsack of your fave fighter and twisting things to your liking.

[johnco]

Boxrec doesn't tell you the whole fight.

The best source: actual film

hahahaha.. :lol: :lol: :lol:

anyone can fantasized about watching films :lol: dumb

[sues2nd]

1.because pac is 3 time world champ/3 time lineal champ
2. because pac whooped the 3 amigos all of whom are part of top ten pound per pound fighters. (they all kissed the canvass more than 10 times. :good
3. sal beat an upstart nelson, old lopez, and moving up gomez ;)

:patsch

[PacDbest]

Boxrec doesn't tell you the whole fight.

The best source: actual film

Tell me?? What is Azuma's actual record & weight & age in the Chava fight using films??? Don't cheat!!! Don't use Boxrec!!!

By the way i use film too. Ups not anymore I use youtube. It's the digital age now my friend!!!!:hi:

[kg0208]

Boxrec doesn't tell you the whole fight.

The best source: actual film

hahahaha.. :lol: :lol: :lol:

anyone can fantasized about watching films :lol: dumb

Tell me you didn't just say it was better to look at boxrec instead of watching film?

[El Puma]

I hate boxrec. Makes people like this guy think he knows about a fight just by seeing things like this...

Ramirez UD Whitaker

And yes, I used that one for a reason.:lol: Let's keep it going. Whitaker Draw Chavez

[sues2nd]

Oh and I will ask again...how did Pac get so many votes.

There should be a limit to how many screennames one person can sign up for. Because there is no way there are THAT many people who either never saw Chava fight or are that stupid/biased.

[johnco]

Pac beat a shot Morales, an unfocused Barrera, an old Barrera, and didn't beat Marquez.

Anybody can play that game

1 shot morales who was still part of top 10. :good
2. unfocused mab who was top 3 :lol:
3. and jmm lost twice to pac. ref admitted scoring mistake and the second one you know the story :good and jmm was pound per pound # 3 :good

[PacDbest]

Boxrec doesn't tell you the whole fight.

The best source: actual film

hahahaha.. :lol: :lol: :lol:

anyone can fantasized about watching films :lol: dumb

Go easy on the old guy Bro!!!!:rofl

[kg0208]

Tell me?? What is Azuma's actual record & weight & age in the Chava fight using films??? Don't cheat!!! Don't use Boxrec!!!

By the way i use film too. Ups not anymore I use youtube. It's the digital age now my friend!!!!:hi:

Relevance?

You know what most would think of Ledwaba from his boxrec record? He was a protected asian fighter who was too much of a pussy to face anyone good. That's why film is better.

[sues2nd]

:lol: Let's keep it going. Whitaker Draw Chavez

Ottke UD Reid

Come guys lets show how fantastic a measuring stick is boxrec is!!!

[sthomas]

Some guy on here is talking about popularity???? WTF is that all about?? So Michael Jackson must be the greatest musician/entertainer ever....Not in my book.

I was watching in front of my TV when my favorite fighter Little Red Lopez, who was on a very good roll @ the time (even on the cover of Sports Illustrated sporting a full headress, ) was systematically destroyed by the relatively unkown Sanchez . Even Howard Cosell did not seem to know much about him, but Howard was pretty astute and fairly early in the fight he started complementing Sanchez about his poise and skill. After Lopez #1, Sanchez was a household name among US boxing fans. Going into fight #2, there was sense that Sanchez was not a lucky, catching Lopez on a bad day afair. He was the real deal and proved it again against Lopez. Sanchez kept winning and gaining popularity, though it is true, like many great atheletes, his performances were amplified by the quality of his competition. So going into the Gomez fight the big question was, "Which Sanchez will show up?" and even if the sharp Sanchez shows up will it even matter against a perceived invincible monster like Gomez???? I was rooting for Sanchez, but I had the feeling that Gomez was going to walk through the whispy looking Sanchez and take him out in the mid-rounds. Sure am glad I was wrong. The victory was a springboard from stardom to superstardom. The win over future great Azumah Nelson became a long shadow cast by Sanchez, begging the thought "So Nelson beat all these fighters for so many years, how would Sanchez do?" I am confident that Sanchez would have done quite well.

The Arguello match would have been a beauty, two of my alltime favorites, but as I stated a few days ago on another post, I'd take Sanchez by late stoppage or UD. He had every advantage (especially speed) except for size and power, but he had a way of handling both those issues, and he had some deceptive power and strength himself. Just ask Gomez

BTW, Sanchez would beat Pac. by late KO also.

[brooklyn1550]

anyone can fantasized about watching films :lol: dumb

Wow, I literally spit out my drink when I read this. Wait a second...

:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl

How is Boxrec better than watching actual film?

:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl

[kg0208]

Ottke UD Reid

Come guys lets show how fantastic a measuring stick is boxrec is!!!

Lewis vs Holyfield Draw

[sues2nd]

1 shot morales who was still part of top 10. :good
2. unfocused mab who was top 3 :lol:
3. and jmm lost twice to pac. ref admitted scoring mistake and the second one you know the story :good and jmm was pound per pound # 3 :good

:patsch

[johnco]

[quote=johnco]

Tell me you didn't just say it was better to look at boxrec instead of watching film?

i didnt say that... but it is easy to exaggerate film fights. specially when it comes to this discussion

[sues2nd]

Lewis vs Holyfield Draw

Forrest UD Quartey

[brooklyn1550]

Ottke UD Reid

Come guys lets show how fantastic a measuring stick is boxrec is!!!

Valuev KO3 McCline

McCline got knocked the fuck out!

[johnco]

Wow, I literally spit out my drink when I read this. Wait a second...

:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl

How is Boxrec better than watching actual film?

:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl

did i say that?? prove it :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl

[El Puma]

Ottke UD Reid

Come guys lets show how fantastic a measuring stick is boxrec is!!!De La Hoya UD Felix Sturm

[brooklyn1550]

Go easy on the old guy Bro!!!!:rofl

Would ya look at that: two simple minded idiots conversing:lol:

[El Puma]

Some guy on here is talking about popularity???? WTF is that all about?? So Michael Jackson must be the greatest musician/entertainer ever....Not in my book.

I was watching in front of my TV when my favorite fighter Little Red Lopez, who was on a very good roll @ the time (even on the cover of Sports Illustrated sporting a full headress, ) was systematically destroyed by the relatively unkown Sanchez . Even Howard Cosell did not seem to know much about him, but Howard was pretty astute and fairly early in the fight he started complementing Sanchez about his poise and skill. After Lopez #1, Sanchez was a household name among US boxing fans. Going into fight #2, there was sense that Sanchez was not a lucky, catching Lopez on a bad day afair. He was the real deal and proved it again against Lopez. Sanchez kept winning and gaining popularity, though it is true, like many great atheletes, his performances were amplified by the quality of his competition. So going into the Gomez fight the big question was, "Which Sanchez will show up?" and even if the sharp Sanchez shows up will it even matter against a perceived invincible monster like Gomez???? I was rooting for Sanchez, but I had the feeling that Gomez was going to walk through the whispy looking Sanchez and take him out in the mid-rounds. Sure am glad I was wrong. The victory was a springboard from stardom to superstardom. The win over future great Azumah Nelson became a long shadow cast by Sanchez, begging the thought "So Nelson beat all these fighters for so many years, how would Sanchez do?" I am confident that Sanchez would have done quite well.

The Arguello match would have been a beauty, two of my alltime favorites, but as I stated a few days ago on another post, I'd take Sanchez by late stoppage or UD. He had every advantage (especially speed) except for size and power, but he had a way of handling both those issues, and he had some deceptive power and strength himself. Just ask Gomez

BTW, Sanchez would beat Pac. by late KO also.:think Very nice.

[johnco]

[quote=johnco]

Go easy on the old guy Bro!!!!:rofl

so from now on i can do my research and essays based on films, not too much credit on actual source and data..

hey i can say jordan was superman before because i saw him fly and slam that ball :yep :yep :yep :yep :yep :yep :yep

[El Puma]

Would ya look at that: two simple minded idiots conversing:lol::lol::lol:

[brooklyn1550]

did i say that?? prove it :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl

That's what it seemed like.

Why don't you explain to me what you meant...in a sentence that people can actually understand.

[sues2nd]

Anyone else starting to believe that PacDbest and johnco are the same person?

:lol:

[johnco]

Would ya look at that: two simple minded idiots conversing:lol:

you just got owned buddy your discussions are based on films LOL

:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl

[sues2nd]

you just got owned buddy your discussions are based on films LOL

:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl

:huh

[kg0208]

so from now on i can do my research and essays based on films, not too much credit on actual source and data..

hey i can say jordan was superman before because i saw him fly and slam that ball :yep :yep :yep :yep :yep :yep :yep
Actually, you do your research and write your papers much better from experience in labs then you do by looking up data in a book. Right? Even video taped surgeries for reference are better than reading it in a text book. So actually, you prove the exact opposite of your point.

Same thing.

Your exaggeration doesn't change that. However, it is much easier to realize how great Jordan was by watching him then by comparing his numbers to others.

[brooklyn1550]

you just got owned buddy your discussions are based on films LOL

:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl

This is just getting too funny:D

Watching footage of fights is the best way to know how a fight went down.

[puga_ni_nana]

Arguello is the man, beats all popular fighters Mancini, Navarette, Limon, Chacon etc.

Here's how I rate by Popularity:

Ali
SRL, Duran, Hearns, Hagler
Frazier, Foreman, Holmes
Mancini, Chacon, Arguello, Boza, Navarette & Limon
Gomez, Benitez & Sanchez.


i mean how do people at the time view arguello with respect to sanchez and with respect to gomez. not the popularity.

for example, is it the same that today vazquez is to gomez, john is to sanchez and arguello is to pac. vazquez is a monster but if john beats him, john will be remembered even if it was a moving up in weight vazquez? now if john will beat pac, it will be like sanchez beating an arguello? is this what you are thinking pacD?

[PacDbest]

Oh and I will ask again...how did Pac get so many votes.

There should be a limit to how many screennames one person can sign up for. Because there is no way there are THAT many people who either never saw Chava fight or are that stupid/biased.

You think I never saw Sanchez??? Here just a click away.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]