Ali v tyson

[fg2227]

Been done million times, i was just wondering what the experts opinion is on this topic?

[McGrain]

:lol:

Ding-ding round 1.

I pick Ali. I think Ali is one of the two or three fighters that Tyson has little hope against. Both have freakish reactions, but Ali has proved his at the highest level. I don't think he'll have a problem getting out of the way of Tyson's first shot most of the time, and this idea that Tyson can launch his second before Ali has scored with accuracy, is not serious.

In the case that Ali does get caught he has the neccesary chin to ride it out in my view. He is a great survivor and smart enough to manage. Meanwhile there is every chance that Tyson will become discouraged in the later rounds and sacrifice defence for aggression. If that happens then Tyson could be stopped - if he keeps his head Ali wins a pretty wide UD.

[duran77]

Well said

[Danny Ocean]

ali ko 11 too fast to smart

[Robbi]

Tyson KO 6 Against the 60's ali.


What have you been smoking? :rasta

[626BrownBomber]

The Muhammad Ali that fought Liston vs. Mike Tyson that fought Mike Spinks. These were the two fights where I feel these men were at their absolute best. We all know that Mike's only chance of beating Muhammad is by ko, and the fact that Muhammad has never been ko'd(yes he was tkoed as and old man but he was on his feet) and he fought the likes of Foreman, Frazier, Norton, Liston, Cleavland Willams, Lamar Clark, Norton and Patterson speaks volumes about his chin. Mike on the other hand has been ko'd several times, only 2 of which in his prime or near prime. And in those prime or near prime ko's, he soaked up tremendous punishment before succumbing. There is no question who has the better technical skills, the Greatest. But Mike had freakish speed and punching power and anyone could be ko'd by him if they made a mistake. His hand and foot speed I think were second only to his hypothetical opponent. Tyson's body shots would not slow The Greatest down either. This being said, I would have to go with The Greatest on an 8 th round tko, but it would be the greatest fight at any weight of all time. The quenessential puncher vs. the quentessential boxer, what a dream fight. There is little shame in losing to a prime Ali or Tyson, thats for sure.

[My dinner with Conteh]

I do agree that Tyson has more chance against the mid-60s version than the 74-75 model. Still, UD either way.

[McGrain]

The Muhammad Ali that fought Liston vs. Mike Tyson that fought Mike Spinks. These were the two fights where I feel these men were at their absolute best.

Dunno about that friend. I take it you mean Liston II? How would we know what kind of shape/at what level Ali was at for that fight? It only lasted seconds - the same goes for Mike v Spinks. I'd go for Ernie Terrell Ali and Trevor Berbick Tyson. How about that?


There is no question who has the better technical skills, the Greatest.

Sorry man, I don't know about this either. Technically, I would give Mike the edge - certainly as far as punching goes. In other ares, Ali sort of creates his own rules but as far as offensive delivery goes, i'd give Tyson the nod.


There is little shame in losing to a prime Ali or Tyson, thats for sure.

No lie.

[McGrain]

I do agree that Tyson has more chance against the mid-60s version than the 74-75 model. Still, UD either way.

I have heard this idea floated before - feel like fleshing it out a little bit?

[Muchmoore]

Tyson is a bad matchup for Ali. Tyson was trained to beat boxers like Ali and disposed of them all. The guys that beat Tyson were strong, rough, tough guys that didnt back up from Tyson. Tyson loved when guys backpedaled from him because it was easy for him to get into mid range.

Tyson would be able to catch Ali as he backs up and finish him off. Alis lack of fundamental blocking and defense cost him here as hes fighting a guy with as good reflexes as himself.

[McGrain]

the one thats sees Clay carry his hands at his waist and almost get KO'd by cooper. His hands were so low, he could get away with it against bums like terrel, but not against a world class fighter like mike tyson.

Of course you would never see Clay fannying about like that v Tyson - I agree that if he did he would get murdered. Please don't call Terrel a bum, whatever he was, he wasn't that.


Ali never met a truly great finisher either, if he gets stunned against tyson, i reckon he'd be finished.

Let's agree that he never met a finisher as good as Tyson and leave it at that - unless you had fought Tyson, though, you probably never did.

I do think that it's interesting to postulate what would have happened if Ali got caught very very early in a late round by Tyson.

[Muchmoore]

I do agree that Tyson has more chance against the mid-60s version than the 74-75 model. Still, UD either way.

The 74-75 Ali didnt have the movement and elusiveness to avoid Tysons blows. If he rope a dopes against Tyson, its over. Tyson was a patient, steady destroyer at his best, not an impatient Foreman who threw every punch full power and gassed out.

[GazOC]

Tyson is a bad matchup for Ali. Tyson was trained to beat boxers like Ali and disposed of them all. The guys that beat Tyson were strong, rough, tough guys that didnt back up from Tyson. Tyson loved when guys backpedaled from him because it was easy for him to get into mid range.

Tyson would be able to catch Ali as he backs up and finish him off. Alis lack of fundamental blocking and defense cost him here as hes fighting a guy with as good reflexes as himself.

I dunno, Ali could fight this either way, on the back foot boxing (60's Ali) or in close leaning on Tyson and pushing down on him (70's Ali)

Either way I think Tyson would get discouraged and go into that mode where he just waits to get stopped (Holy 1, Lewis).

[McGrain]

Stick and move was THE way to get yourself obliterated against tyson

I agree with that - and that Tyson did what he did better than anyone else ever. But Ali (Terrell) also did what he did better than anyone else ever.

Overall, I would bet that Manilla Ali has the better chance. What do you see where that one is concerned?

[Muchmoore]

I dunno, Ali could fight this either way, on the back foot boxing (60's Ali) or in close leaning on Tyson and pushing down on him (70's Ali)

Either way I think Tyson would get discouraged and go into that mode where he just waits to get stopped (Holy 1, Lewis).

That was an unmotivated Tyson that was in it more for the money than to win. When Tyson was getting destroyed by Douglas he roared back and dropped Buster in the 8th, and had it not been the end of the round probably would of won. A young Tyson kept fighting no matter what you threw at him.

[McGrain]

I havent given it much thought. The ali of the frazier fights stands a much better chance, but his lack of power cripples his chances. He also doesnt have the dynamite uppercut required to stop tyson.

He doesn't have any uppercut!

Which single fight do you pick as Tyson's peak?

[GazOC]

That was an unmotivated Tyson that was in it more for the money than to win. When Tyson was getting destroyed by Douglas he roared back and dropped Buster in the 8th, and had it not been the end of the round probably would of won. A young Tyson kept fighting no matter what you threw at him.

I firmly believe the ear biting in Holy 2 was Tysons idea of quitting with honour without having to get the same beating he got last time.

[Muchmoore]

I firmly believe the ear biting in Holy 2 was Tysons idea of quitting with honour without having to get the same beating he got last time.

What's your point?

[McGrain]

I firmly believe the ear biting in Holy 2 was Tysons idea of quitting with honour without having to get the same beating he got last time.

:yikes

[My dinner with Conteh]

The 74-75 Ali didnt have the movement and elusiveness to avoid Tysons blows. If he rope a dopes against Tyson, its over. Tyson was a patient, steady destroyer at his best, not an impatient Foreman who threw every punch full power and gassed out.


I'm talking Frazier II and III era. That Ali doesn't get KO'd by anybody. Look, I'm giving Tyson some slack here, when, if we're honest, if our lives depended on it we'd pick Ali without a second's hesitation.

[GazOC]

What's your point?
That at a certain point, Tyson decides a fight is unwinnable a effectively gives up.

Fumbling for mouthpiece against Douglas instead of trying to get up
Ear biting agianst Holy
Looking to get KO'd against Lewis

He showed a similar trait in his last two defeats but I'll cut him some slack....


I think he'd get to that point with Ali.

[My dinner with Conteh]

I firmly believe the ear biting in Holy 2 was Tysons idea of quitting with honour without having to get the same beating he got last time.


Of course, quit job of the year. I thought everybody knew that. :huh

[McGrain]

Berbick. Averaged ~60 punches around, destroyed a peak, game opponent who had gone 15 rounds with a prime larry holmes, displayed incredible speed and power.

Yeah, I agree. There is something other about that fight.

With this guy we just don't know what would happen if he got dragged out of his comfort zone. I know it's a touchy subject for you, but what Bonecrusher did with him always made me wonder.

But all Boncursher came to do was survive - I just think that there are ATG's, master boxers who could play that survival game attacking of the defense.

As we agreed (i think) Tyson in peak was never dragged out of his depth - but the inferior version was - and he consistantly reacted badly.

Bottom line - do you think that some of these great fighters could put Tyson in serious trouble?

And if he did find himself in that trouble, don't you think it's possible he could fail to show his best?

[My dinner with Conteh]

Shot joe frazier had ali in serious trouble in the thrilla, put a prime tyson in place of shot joe frazier in that fight and you'd get a KO/TKO in under 10 rounds.


What serious trouble? Near the end of round 14? Yeah, Tyson would really be able to throw the same amout of leather than Frazier for 14 rounds. :lol: :lol: :lol:

[GazOC]

As we agreed (i think) Tyson in peak was never dragged out of his depth - but the inferior version was - and he consistantly reacted badly.



I guess thats the point I'm trying to make....:D

[josak]

That at a certain point, Tyson decides a fight is unwinnable a effectively gives up.

Fumbling for mouthpiece against Douglas instead of trying to get up
Ear biting agianst Holy
Looking to get KO'd against Lewis

He showed a similar trait in his last two defeats but I'll cut him some slack....


I think he'd get to that point with Ali.
Dude, are you kidding me? Your claiming that Tyson threw the fight with Douglas? Did you even watch what happened? He got smacked with 4 flush shots that almost took his head off -- that's why he was 'fumbling with the mouthpiece.'

And Tyson wasn't 'looking' to get KO'd by Lewis. He gassed out very early into the fight and had no chance of winning after that. Tyson without stamina is like Foreman without power.

As for the ear bite -- who knows why that happened? I don't believe he was trying to 'get out of the fight', as he was actually winning that round. It probably had to do with the headbutting and the fact that Tyson was a pretty unstable guy.

[rekcutnevets]

To be honest with everyone, the speed of Tyson's hook is what bothers me for the Ali match up. Tyson's power is up there with the likes of Foreman, Louis, Lewis, Shavers, etc... I'm not here to debate who hit harder. They are all in the same ball park. Ali never faced anyone with Tyson's speed to compliment his power.

Ali's name has begun to bore me on this forum. It seems as if everyone keeps mentioning Ali so much that I want to pick Everett Martin to beat him. People even want to make him into some sci-fi monster, and wonder what would happen if. I sometimes feel like I have wandered onto some comedy scetch where people just keep mentioning Ali to the point that it is funny.

I really have no choice other than picking Ali, but I wish I could do otherwise.

Ali is my favorite fighter ever, but damn. I here Ali's name so much, that it is becoming cliche to pick him against anyone.

I have only been on this forum for 2 months by the way.

[Primadonna Kool]

Muhammad Ali 12 UD WINS


Mike Tyson is one dimensional you knew what you where going to get with Mike Tyson. Muhammad Ali is not one dimensional, he can fight coming forward, on the back foot, he can totally out move fighters. Muhammad Ali has the best footwork, speed and co-ordination of any heavyweight in history, and his hand speed is immense, and Muhammad Ail had a laser like Jab, all the tools to beat Mike Tyson, but it’s the game plan that needs to be executed. This is a big factor in this fight, Tony Tucker laid the blue print how to beat Mike Tyson. A moving target is harder to hit than a stationary Target, Mike Tyson had big problems with anybody, who could move, take a punch, and execute fast combinations, and this frustrated and confused him. Muhammad Ali would know this, and adopt and stick and move tatics, and who was better, combinations. With fast combinations, this fight will frustrate Mike Tyson. The only chance Mike Tyson has got is a K.O, there is no way he dominates Muhammad Ali round after round, Mike Tyson is one dimensional, and if Tony Tucker, James Quick Tills, can dance and stick and move against Mike Tyson for 12 rounds. Muhammad Ali will tear apart Mike Tyson physical atomy, he will totally Molester Mike Tyson. Muhammad is too big, fast and skillful. Mike Tyson's work rate was nothing out of this world in his prime, Muhammad Ali was overall had more endurance than Mike Tyson. And is not stupid, nothing is getting played into Mike Tyson's hands. It’s Lennox Lewis vs. Mike Tyson 2002 all over again, gorilla warfare. The Muhammad Ali that fought Sonny Listen, and the Muhammad Ali that fought Joe Frasier all three times, totally Molesters Mike Tyson for 12 rounds.

12 UD for Muhammad Ali.

[Robbi]

Muhammad Ali 12 UD WINS


Mike Tyson is one dimensional you knew what you where going to get with Mike Tyson. Muhammad Ali is not one dimensional, he can fight coming forward, on the back foot, he can totally out move fighters. Muhammad Ali has the best footwork, speed and co-ordination of any heavyweight in history, and his hand speed is immense, and Muhammad Ail had a laser like Jab, all the tools to beat Mike Tyson, but it’s the game plan that needs to be executed. This is a big factor in this fight, Tony Tucker laid the blue print how to beat Mike Tyson. A moving target is harder to hit than a stationary Target, Mike Tyson had big problems with anybody, who could move, take a punch, and execute fast combinations, and this frustrated and confused him. Muhammad Ali would know this, and adopt and stick and move tatics, and who was better, combinations. With fast combinations, this fight will frustrate Mike Tyson. The only chance Mike Tyson has got is a K.O, there is no way he dominates Muhammad Ali round after round, Mike Tyson is one dimensional, and if Tony Tucker, James Quick Tills, can dance and stick and move against Mike Tyson for 12 rounds. Muhammad Ali will tear apart Mike Tyson physical atomy, he will totally Molester Mike Tyson. Muhammad is too big, fast and skillful. Mike Tyson's work rate was nothing out of this world in his prime, Muhammad Ali was overall had more endurance than Mike Tyson. And is not stupid, nothing is getting played into Mike Tyson's hands. It’s Lennox Lewis vs. Mike Tyson 2002 all over again, gorilla warfare. The Muhammad Ali that fought Sonny Listen, and the Muhammad Ali that fought Joe Frasier all three times, totally Molesters Mike Tyson for 12 rounds.

12 UD for Muhammad Ali.


That sure was an enjoyable read. Tyson's power diminishes during the late rounds as well. Ali has the perfect style to offset Tyson. What everyone forgets, Tyson never had the mental strength to match Ali either.

[hdog]

A man versus a boy. Ali is way too tough for Tyson.

[My dinner with Conteh]

It does in this case. Ali wins. End of chat.

[My dinner with Conteh]

As for the ear bite -- who knows why that happened? I don't believe he was trying to 'get out of the fight', as he was actually winning that round. It probably had to do with the headbutting and the fact that Tyson was a pretty unstable guy.


He deliberately got himself disqualified, nothing could be more obvious, that's why the ear bit happened twice.

[My dinner with Conteh]

[quote=rekcutnevets]Ali is my favorite fighter ever, but damn. I here Ali's name so much, that it is becoming cliche to pick him against anyone./quote]


Join the club. The Ali worship is a bit embarrassing. Still, having Tyson as a hero is embarrassing in itself.


Despite this, Ali's still the logical pick to beat Tyson.

[McGrain]

It does in this case. Ali wins. End of chat.


...are you a schoolteacher, by any chance?

[Luigi1985]

Ali would win viá late TKO IMO, but he can´t "play" with Tyson or let his hands so low like against other fighters to disrespect them, because if Tyson lands something on him, he would/ could finish even the iron-chinned Ali. But a motivated and in-shape Ali would outpoint him and later TKO Mike...

[fatballer_10]

I think if it was to go down Tyson would win in 5 or 6 or if it went longer, Ali would win in 10 - 12. Tyson had massive power especially early in fights, but Ali had amazing stamina and heart and he was so quick and elusive.

9 times out of 10 Ali wins.

[groove]

When have you ever seen Muhammad ali come forward and press the attack effectively against a world class opponent? He was incredibly awkward when forced to attack


Well watch peak Ali v Williams and Terrell. That Ali would give Tyson a boxing lesson.

[JohnThomas1]

the one thats sees Clay carry his hands at his waist and almost get KO'd by cooper. His hands were so low, he could get away with it against bums like terrel, but not against a world class fighter like mike tyson.


Tyson had his hands absolutely full vs a decrepid "Quick" Tillis, get my drift?

Ali never met a truly great finisher either, if he gets stunned against tyson, i reckon he'd be finished.

Liston, Frazier, Foreman, Shavers, Holmes, surely a good finisher somewhere in that lot lmao. Whatever you are on, i'll have a pound of it.

[JohnThomas1]

Shot joe frazier had ali in serious trouble in the thrilla, put a prime tyson in place of shot joe frazier in that fight and you'd get a KO/TKO in under 10 rounds.

Maybe, tho Ali might stop Tyson a bit later than that. But you're right, Tyson wouldn't have the patience and calm to last as long as Frazier did. Good post

:good

[JohnThomas1]

He deliberately got himself disqualified, nothing could be more obvious, that's why the ear bit happened twice.

Total agreement here, and Holyfield said as much. Instead of being relieved to get out of a tough fight he stated Tyson took the cowards way out. Holyfield knew all along Tyson's ass was a gonna be grass. Wayyyy too much mental strength had Holyfield, beat him with your ability (not your fear factor or intimidation) or don't beat the man at all. Of course Mike didn't beat him at all, and never would as long as his ass pointed to the ground.

[Robbi]

Total agreement here, and Holyfield said as much. Instead of being relieved to get out of a tough fight he stated Tyson took the cowards way out. Holyfield knew all along Tyson's ass was a gonna be grass. Wayyyy too much mental strength had Holyfield, beat him with your ability (not your fear factor or intimidation) or don't beat the man at all. Of course Mike didn't beat him at all, and never would as long as his ass pointed to the ground.

Tyson sucked up Holyfield's ass at the post-fight press conference after their first fight. "I want to shake your hand man". He had respect for Holyfield with a capital R. And his indimidation was at its weakest for the rematch, especailly when they stared off in the centre of the ring. Tyson was blinking and glanced to the side for a second. You could say it was as if Tyson was looking at himself in his prime. He turned from intimidator, to the the intimidated.

[JohnThomas1]

Tyson sucked up Holyfield's ass at the post-fight press conference after their first fight. "I want to shake your hand man". He had respect for Holyfield with a capital R. And his indimidation was at its weakest for the rematch, especailly when they stared off in the centre of the ring. Tyson was blinking and glanced to the side for a second. You could say it was as if Tyson was looking at himself in his prime. He turned from intimidator, to the the intimidated.

Exactly, and Tyson lapped up to Lewis in one of the most surreal still in the ring post fight interviews ever. Even later in the dressing room he was coming out with some freaky stuff. Maybe it all supports the Tyson bully syndrome. I must add however that it takes an ATG to bring forth this scenario against the best of Tyson. But yes, he goes from driving noses thru brains to looking for easy ways out or potshotting when the chips are down. At least the post peak version does.

[Duodenum]

Let's get one damn thing straight about that ear bite. Tyson did it because he hadn't eaten all day and was hungry. Feeling himself getting weaker, he needed a quick and convenient source of protein to revitalize himself. Being descended from cannibals, Iron Bite went after the most readily available and convenient nutritional snack available, a chocolate Eario.:-((

If Frazier couldn't finish off Ali in round 11 of the FOTC, as diminished as Ali still was from his exile, it's difficult for me to imagine how Tyson would be able to do it. For three rounds, an aging and stale Larry Holmes, displaying considerable ring rust and difficulties with timing and accuracy, was able to nonetheless give Tyson a world of trouble with his greater height, reach, and cobweb shrouded jab. Given all that, how on earth would Tyson cope with similar physical disadvantages facing a prime Ali? Think Ali didn't have an uppercut? Check out the combination he used to finish off the rematch with Quarry.

Perhaps I'm wrong. Maybe Cus D'Amato had succeeded in developing the perfect style for defeating Ali, just like Eddie Futch. Yeah, no doubt about it. Along with Frazier and Norton, nobody bothered Ali the way Floyd Patterson did. When I look at how Floyd picked Muhammad apart in their pair of meetings, I have to ask myself, "How on Earth could Ali ever learn how to cope with a superfast hook and peek-a-boo defense?" Yep, styles make fights, and Patterson proved that Tyson had the perfect size and style for beating Ali.:nut :smoke :hat :rasta

[groove]

When I look at how Floyd picked Muhammad apart in their pair of meetings, I have to ask myself, "How on Earth could Ali ever learn how to cope with a superfast hook and peek-a-boo defense?" Yep, styles make fights, and Patterson proved that Tyson had the perfect size and style for beating Ali.

I hope you're joking?

[Duodenum]

I hope you're joking?Did you say "smoking?"

[hobgoblin]

Any version of Muhammad Ali from 1964-1975 will win handily IMO. In the case of 60s Ali - his lateral movement would have Tyson following around in circles as Ali scored points and gradually cut up Tyson with his speed and reach and workrate. Tyson would always be at bay - looking to land a few body shots and a few hard punches to the chin - Ali can handle that. Those who question Ali's power - his heavy punching is highly underrated as is the damage he can do - just look at Liston's face as early as round 7! Larry Holmes said that Holyfield hit at the level of Ali - this is sufficient power to stop Mike Tyson.

Ali's sense of timing, his reach, his speed, his accuracy, his jabs and right hand leads would be too much for Tyson's amazing reflexes to handle. The only way to deal with that IMO, is Joe Frazier's random bobbing and weaving or be be a boxer that stays back and fights with reach (not Tyson's style). Tyson would be flat footed after 5 rounds and then Ali would catch tag him.

Mike Tyson was a great puncher but he did not have the work rate or the ORGANIZED punching of Joe Louis (to catch Ali with a ripping combination of 4 punches and not let Ali recover). He doesn't have the consistent body punching of Joe Frazier to be able slow down Ali and get his head later. Frazier threw 1000+ punches and couldn't stop Ali. Ali has rough moments where Tyson rocks him but he wins a KO around round 10 with Tyson badly cut up and concussed but finishing gamely. Ali wins 8/10 times IMO. He outmaneuvers Mike Tyson who fails to come up with an adjustale strategy.

[hobgoblin]

For three rounds, an aging and stale Larry Holmes, displaying considerable ring rust and difficulties with timing and accuracy, was able to nonetheless give Tyson a world of trouble with his greater height, reach, and cobweb shrouded jab.

No, no, no - don't go there. That's ridiculous. No loss to Larry - he was way past his best. However, Larry won at most maybe 1 MINUTE of the fight and that is because Tyson allowed him - he knew Larry was little threat (which he was at the time). I could be winning against George Foreman for 5 seconds till he sends me to Africa with his punch - that means nothing.

For my money, Joe Frazier did prove that is style is good for beating Ali. However, Joe Frazier and Mike Tyson - for all the semblances, are vastly different fighters. Patterson did not have the power, ferocity, or chin of Mike Tyson. Ali would definitely have a tougher (but shorter) night with Tyson than Patterson who was more game.

[Muchmoore]

That at a certain point, Tyson decides a fight is unwinnable a effectively gives up.

Fumbling for mouthpiece against Douglas instead of trying to get up
Ear biting agianst Holy
Looking to get KO'd against Lewis

He showed a similar trait in his last two defeats but I'll cut him some slack....


I think he'd get to that point with Ali.

Fumbling for his mouthpiece against Douglas was pretty heroic. He had just got hit with an uppercut that made Douglas' trainers look up because they thought Tysons head was going to fly off and had gotten beaten up for 10 rounds. Even still he doesn't lose desire when he is nearly unconcious.

He was messed up mentally against Holyfield. It wasn't the same Tyson.

[mcvey]

Been done million times, i was just wondering what the experts opinion is on this topic?
Douglas showed that a fast big man with a strong jab could beat Tyson ,who does that description resemble?

[My dinner with Conteh]

he won 8 rounds against tillis


But you scored the 10th round of the Douglas fight 10-9 to Tyson too, so we'll ignore that '8 rounds'. :good

[Ted Stickles]

:lol:

Ding-ding round 1.

I pick Ali. I think Ali is one of the two or three fighters that Tyson has little hope against. Both have freakish reactions, but Ali has proved his at the highest level. I don't think he'll have a problem getting out of the way of Tyson's first shot most of the time, and this idea that Tyson can launch his second before Ali has scored with accuracy, is not serious.

In the case that Ali does get caught he has the neccesary chin to ride it out in my view. He is a great survivor and smart enough to manage. Meanwhile there is every chance that Tyson will become discouraged in the later rounds and sacrifice defence for aggression. If that happens then Tyson could be stopped - if he keeps his head Ali wins a pretty wide UD.


Well said...

[My dinner with Conteh]

Referee: Joe Cortez | Judge: Bernie Friedkin 4-6 | Judge: Al Reid 4-6 | Judge: Tony Moret 2-8



Tillis was also knocked down in the fourth, He was battered around like a red headed step child but tyson detractors seem to think tillis was robbed or somehow dominated tyson.



So, 4-6 is the majority, not 2-8. So obviously you score every Tyson fight the same as the judge with the biggest margin towards Gay Mike. How sad.

[Robbi]

No, no, no - don't go there. That's ridiculous. No loss to Larry - he was way past his best. However, Larry won at most maybe 1 MINUTE of the fight and that is because Tyson allowed him - he knew Larry was little threat (which he was at the time). I could be winning against George Foreman for 5 seconds till he sends me to Africa with his punch - that means nothing.

Up until Holmes got floored during the 4th round against Tyson he was not winning the fight. However Holmes' experience was making life difficult for Tyson to get off with punches up until he got boomed. After 20 months of inactivity, father time as well, Holmes never had the stamina to keep moving with a high punch output at the same time. He was stricly focused on defense, until the start of the 4th round when he got on his toes and popped Tyson with some nice jabs.

Larry maybe only dominated Tyson for 1 minute, but Tyson hardly looked great up until he smashed him with the overhand right.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Holmes was mashed.

[Duodenum]

No, no, no - don't go there. That's ridiculous. No loss to Larry - he was way past his best. However, Larry won at most maybe 1 MINUTE of the fight and that is because Tyson allowed him - he knew Larry was little threat (which he was at the time). I could be winning against George Foreman for 5 seconds till he sends me to Africa with his punch - that means nothing.

For my money, Joe Frazier did prove that is style is good for beating Ali. However, Joe Frazier and Mike Tyson - for all the semblances, are vastly different fighters. Patterson did not have the power, ferocity, or chin of Mike Tyson. Ali would definitely have a tougher (but shorter) night with Tyson than Patterson who was more game.Don't worry hobgoblin-I was merely reeling from the shock of a pomogranate marguerita brainfreeze when I posted that disdainfully dismissive commentary. (You're the logistician here. My blissfully sotted self defers to your sober judgement. But in the condition I was enjoying, Tyson and Foreman would not have inflicted any hurting on me...until the next morning-hell, I'm headed there anyway!)

[My dinner with Conteh]

Don't worry mate, some of us 'get it'. :good

[Robbi]

:-(
Holmes was DESTROYED. He had a majority of his jabs slipped and his right hands had zero effect on tyson's chin, tyson was landing his jab throughout the first 3 rounds untill he timed the perfect right hand which obliterated holmes. Holmes could never beat tyson, He lacked the uppercut and inside fighting ability to even trouble tyson and his weakness to right hands made him an easy target.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]


:yep Tyson looked great during the first three rounds?. You maybe need to get your TV checked out, combined with a visit to your local opticians.

Holmes tied up Tyson whenever he wished, and moved laterally which never let him get set for his power punches. Tyson was trying to get Holmes into those spots where he could get off, but Holmes experience and ring generalship were causing Tyson problems. Great finish, no question about it.

Look above at the clip, and tell me if your man Tyson ever got up off the floor to win. I'll awnser that for you. Nope, he did not. Holmes on the otherhand did, and from devastating knockdowns as well it must be said.

Douglas, Holyfield, Lewis, Williams, McBride. All knocked Tyson down, and he was also stopped inside the distance on every occassion as well.

And don't give me the nonsense about Tyson being past his best, especially against Lewis, Williams, and McBride. Because thats part of being a great fighter, turning possible defeats into wins when past your prime. I will give Tyson the benefit of the doubt to a certain extent, as he clearly was past his best in those fights, but he simply never had two things, the ability to come back from adversity and self belief.

[Robbi]

Maybe it's because he was REDICULOUSLY FAR PAST HIS BEST?


Ali sucks, he lost his legacy fights against berbick and holmes. dont give me that "he was past his best nonsense" Part of being great is truning possible defeats into wins when past your prime.

Ali had done enough up until he fought Holmes and Berbick though, know what I mean?. Your a Tyson nuthugger, so you probably don't realise exactly what I mean.

He had beaten Liston, Frazier twice, Foreman, Norton twice, and came back to win his rematch against Spinks at the age of 36 while past his prime, and other decent heavyweight challengers during his era. He regained the title three times, and fought and beat much better oppostion than Tyson.

"Part of being a great fighter is turning possible defeats into wins". Ali achieved this while in his prime, and even when past his prime. He got up off the floor to stop Cooper in the very next round, beat two of the best punchers in heavyweight history, Liston and Foreman against the odds.

Thats the difference sucker. If you want to twist it further and hide behind the facts, go ahead.

[ironchamp]

:yep Tyson looked great during the first three rounds?. You maybe need to get your TV checked out, combined with a visit to your local opticians.

Holmes tied up Tyson whenever he wished, and moved laterally which never let him get set for his power punches. Tyson was trying to get Holmes into those spots where he could get off, but Holmes experience and ring generalship were causing Tyson problems. Great finish, no question about it.

Look above at the clip, and tell me if your man Tyson ever got up off the floor to win. I'll awnser that for you. Nope, he did not. Holmes on the otherhand did, and from devastating knockdowns as well it must be said.

Douglas, Holyfield, Lewis, Williams, McBride. All knocked Tyson down, and he was also stopped inside the distance on every occassion as well.

And don't give me the nonsense about Tyson being past his best, especially against Lewis, Williams, and McBride. Because thats part of being a great fighter, turning possible defeats into wins when past your prime. I will give Tyson the benefit of the doubt to a certain extent, as he clearly was past his best in those fights, but he simply never had two things, the ability to come back from adversity and self belief.

Since when is it a criteria that you have to get off the floor to be a great fighter. Time and time again I've always put more stock in guys who dont hit the floor at all.

For you a great fighter NEEDS to struggle, needs to get hurt only to come back and win as though boxing is some sort of rocky movie.

To me boxing is a sport. I embrace perfection whereas you embrace imperfection.

To me Mayweather's win over Corrales is more impressive than Corrales's win over Castillo.

Chico's win was more dramatic but in terms of his performance I think PBF's dominant performance deserves more praise.

I should add that Ali (at the time Clay) may have gotten up from the knockdown against Cooper and stopped him in the next round. But for me the obvious question is; "why the fuck was he on the floor in the first place?"

[Primadonna Kool]

Ali had done enough up until he fought Holmes and Berbick though, know what I mean?. Your a Tyson nuthugger, so you probably don't realise exactly what I mean.

He had beaten Liston, Frazier twice, Foreman, Norton twice, and came back to win his rematch against Spinks at the age of 36 while past his prime, and other decent heavyweight challengers during his era. He regained the title three times, and fought and beat much better oppostion than Tyson.

"Part of being a great fighter is turning possible defeats into wins". Ali achieved this while in his prime, and even when past his prime. He got up off the floor to stop Cooper in the very next round, beat two of the best punchers in heavyweight history, Liston and Foreman against the odds.

Thats the difference sucker. If you want to twist it further and hide behind the facts, go ahead.

Mike Tyson never won a fight, he was'nt suppose to win, or was'nt favourite for.

Lennox Lewis ended the myth, but some people still believe the bullshit.

[ironchamp]

Mike Tyson never won a fight, he was'nt suppose to win, or was'nt favourite for.

Lennox Lewis ended the myth, but some people still believe the bullshit.

Tyson was only the underdog in 1 fight.

[Robbi]

Since when is it a criteria that you have to get off the floor to be a great fighter. Time and time again I've always put more stock in guys who dont hit the floor at all.

For you a great fighter NEEDS to struggle, needs to get hurt only to come back and win as though boxing is some sort of rocky movie.

To me boxing is a sport. I embrace perfection whereas you embrace imperfection.

To me Mayweather's win over Corrales is more impressive than Corrales's win over Castillo.

Chico's win was more dramatic but in terms of his performance I think PBF's dominant performance deserves more praise.

I should add that Ali (at the time Clay) may have gotten up from the knockdown against Cooper and stopped him in the next round. But for me the obvious question is; "why the fuck was he on the floor in the first place?"

Im making a comparison between Tyson and Ali. Both hit the canvas but one got up to win, the other didn't.

"Since when is it a criteria that you have to get off the floor to be a great fighter".

Im laughing at that statement. Is it better to stay on the canvas, than get up?. You have just tried to knock my criteria, then at the same time make a complete mockery of your own.

[hitman_hatton1]

Up until Holmes got floored during the 4th round against Tyson he was not winning the fight. However Holmes' experience was making life difficult for Tyson to get off with punches up until he got boomed. After 20 months of inactivity, father time as well, Holmes never had the stamina to keep moving with a high punch output at the same time. He was stricly focused on defense, until the start of the 4th round when he got on his toes and popped Tyson with some nice jabs.

Larry maybe only dominated Tyson for 1 minute, but Tyson hardly looked great up until he smashed him with the overhand right.

holmes just wasn't in shape for that fight.

he would have done a bit better with some better prep.

he proved himself again in the 90's, when he got some comeback fights and got himself into shape.

[JohnThomas1]

he won 8 rounds against tillis


Liston was old and shot, and still not an epic finisher in the mold of tyson or louis, Frazier had an amazing one punch in his arsenal,
Foreman fucking sucks dick at everything except power, his punches were embarassingly poor in form and he had dick for stamina.
Shavers, see foreman
Holmes, Not a puncher nor a finisher.

So basically you just don't rank anyone, well except Tyson lol. 8 rounds? Many would beg to differ :lol:

[JohnThomas1]

Maybe it's because he was REDICULOUSLY FAR PAST HIS BEST?


Ali sucks, he lost his legacy fights against berbick and holmes. dont give me that "he was past his best nonsense" Part of being great is truning possible defeats into wins when past your prime.

Good lord, your fave Tyson would be the worst great in history regarding these circumstances :lol:

[Maxmomer]

Maybe it's because he was REDICULOUSLY FAR PAST HIS BEST?


Ali sucks, he lost his legacy fights against berbick and holmes. dont give me that "he was past his best nonsense" Part of being great is truning possible defeats into wins when past your prime.

Ali was "past his prime" when he beat Fraizier, Foreman and Norton. 38-39 when he fought Holmes and Berbick and already showing signs of Parkinsons and even those losses were by decision or TKO.

How old was Tyson when he got his ass handed to him by Holyfeild? 30-31? Did Tyson ever get up when he was knocked down?

[Muchmoore]

How old was Tyson when he got his ass handed to him by Holyfeild? 30-31? Did Tyson ever get up when he was knocked down?

Did Tyson ever get dropped in his twenties by a guy like Henry Cooper?

[Robbi]

Ali was "past his prime" when he beat Fraizier, Foreman and Norton. 38-39 when he fought Holmes and Berbick and already showing signs of Parkinsons and even those losses were by decision or TKO.

How old was Tyson when he got his ass handed to him by Holyfeild? 30-31? Did Tyson ever get up when he was knocked down?

Ali was past his prime, but still showed what a great fighter he was against the fighters you mentioned. Tyson's best win after his humilation at the hands of Douglas, probably Ruddock. The others were mediocre heavyweights, and I'm including the fighter who Tyson regained the title from, Bruno.

Ive posted about five decent posts regarding Tyson and the element of greatness, on this thread and another.

Because Tyson was beaten at the age of 23 years of age, someone replied and said "Joe Louis was beaten at the same age by Schemling". Its what you prove after the defeat which counts, and we all know what Louis proved, which puts Tyson well and truely in the shade to be kind on him.

[ironchamp]

Im making a comparison between Tyson and Ali. Both hit the canvas but one got up to win, the other didn't.

"Since when is it a criteria that you have to get off the floor to be a great fighter".

Im laughing at that statement. Is it better to stay on the canvas, than get up?. You have just tried to knock my criteria, then at the same time make a complete mockery of your own.

The comparison between Tyson and Ali.

Tyson in the 80s was better than Ali in the 60s.

Ali in the 70s was better than Tyson in the 90s.

The 70s and 90s had better opponents that allowed for better legacy fights. Ali flourished and Tyson for the most part floundered.

When people look at Ali's legacy they generally look at the 70s, not the 60s.

When people look at Tyson's legacy they generally look at the 90s not he 80s.

You missing the point of what I'm saying. Of course when you get knocked down you get up immediately but the point is you shouldnt get knocked down the first place.

[JohnThomas1]

Did Tyson ever get dropped in his twenties by a guy like Henry Cooper?

Ali was never stopped in his 20's and showed he could actually come off the floor to win.

[Robbi]

Ali was never stopped in his 20's and showed he could actually come off the floor to win.


:bush

[AnthonyJ74]

Up until Holmes got floored during the 4th round against Tyson he was not winning the fight. However Holmes' experience was making life difficult for Tyson to get off with punches up until he got boomed. After 20 months of inactivity, father time as well, Holmes never had the stamina to keep moving with a high punch output at the same time. He was stricly focused on defense, until the start of the 4th round when he got on his toes and popped Tyson with some nice jabs.

Larry maybe only dominated Tyson for 1 minute, but Tyson hardly looked great up until he smashed him with the overhand right.

Holmes was trying his best to make the fight a "non-fight". As Larry Merchant said at a point during the fight, "Holmes has been practicing the art of escapology. The question is, when is he going to start practicing fightology". Holmes wasn't fighting. He was losing every round, and when he decided to open up a little bit, Tyson nailed him! It's often times hard to look good against a guy who is more interested in surviving than fighting!

[Robbi]

The comparison between Tyson and Ali.

Tyson in the 80s was better than Ali in the 60s.

Ali in the 70s was better than Tyson in the 90s.

The 70s and 90s had better opponents that allowed for better legacy fights. Ali flourished and Tyson for the most part floundered.

When people look at Ali's legacy they generally look at the 70s, not the 60s.

When people look at Tyson's legacy they generally look at the 90s not he 80s.

You missing the point of what I'm saying. Of course when you get knocked down you get up immediately but the point is you shouldnt get knocked down the first place.

Now its came to the point your trying to take the shine off Ali's ability to rise from the canvas and win. "the point is you shouldn't get knocked down in the first place". So your point it is, no fighter should ever get knocked down throughout the course of their careers?. Because I have clearly stated valuable facts when presenting you with the evidence comparing Tyson and Ali and the ingredients of greatness, its now suddenly came to the stage that getting knocked down means everything, no matter if its much more impressive getting up to win after being knocked down.

Ali got up off the floor to win against Banks, Cooper and Wepner. Was knocked down by Frazier and lost, then fought him again and beat him twice. Beat the fearsome Liston convincingly twice, and took Foreman's best blows when nobody gave him a prayer, then knocked him out. When well past his prime, he came back to outbox Spinks to win the crown for a third time.


Tyson was floored and beaten in his prime by Douglas, who was a 42-1 underdog. Again 6 years later was beaten up by Holyfield, again a massive underdog. And to make matters even worse, decided to get himself DQ'd in a rematch 7 months later.

Tyson has done nothing outstanding since the 42-1 underdog beat him up in front of the Japanese.

[NickHudson]

Agreed.

I have no doubt that if Tyson suffered a KD from the likes of Thomas, Berbick, Holmes, Spinks or any of his other foes from the late 80s he would have got up and gone on to win. But, he was both too elusive and too rock chinned. Surely this shouldn't count against him.

To put it further into perspective. How does his 4 year '86-'89 spell compare to other HWs in terms of not only never hitting the deck, but not looking close to hitting the deck? To my mind, most impressive indeed...

Which HWs compare favourably to this?

The fact that tyson made douglas a 42-1 underdog should show just how good tyson was in his prime (1986-1988 ). he was shot post prison.


I'd rather my fighter dominate everyone and never taste canvas then get up from it to win.

[JohnThomas1]

The fact that tyson made douglas a 42-1 underdog should show just how good tyson was in his prime (1986-1988 ). he was shot post prison.


I'd rather my fighter dominate everyone and never taste canvas then get up from it to win.

Trouble is Tyson did taste the canvas, and didn't get up to win. Obviously with the Douglas loss he didn't totally dominate. 2 years is a damn short prime, too short i'm afraid.

[Robbi]

The fact that tyson made douglas a 42-1 underdog should show just how good tyson was in his prime (1986-1988 ). he was shot post prison.


I'd rather my fighter dominate everyone and never taste canvas then get up from it to win.

Tyson was a brilliant "on top" destructive machine during his prime years. As much as we are disagree and counter back at each other, I'm positive you don't think he's god, because I sure don't think he's the devil.

He was shot post prison. To what extent exactly?. Because Tyson looked pretty good against McNeely, Mathias, Bruno, and Seldon. Before his fight with Holyfield, nobody was claiming he was looking shot in the four fights previously. Holyfield seen the openings, and capatalised on them, he also had the heart and self belief. Tyson was exposed, plain and simple. Coming to the conclusion he was not quite as good as his prime days I can accept, but "shot" is simply too strong.

Ali was shot against Holmes and Berbick, and Tyson against Lewis, Williams, and McBride.

I'll tell you one thing, Tyson looked awesome against Savarese 7 years ago. The timing and leverage of the left hook he dropped Savarse with was not a man who looked shot to me.

[My dinner with Conteh]

holmes just wasn't in shape for that fight.

he would have done a bit better with some better prep.

he proved himself again in the 90's, when he got some comeback fights and got himself into shape.


He had enough preparation, the fight was mooted before Tyson beat Biggs in fact. The 38 year old version was always going to get mashed.

[JohnThomas1]

He had enough preparation, the fight was mooted before Tyson beat Biggs in fact. The 38 year old version was always going to get mashed.

Exactly, peak Tyson was a little different to Mercer, McCall and co, and offensively certainly far more dangerous as a stoppage threat than Holyfield to Holmes.

[JIm Broughton]

Tyson's only chance is by KO. We all know that. He's not going to outbox Ali and win by decision. That leaves us with the big question. Can Mike KO Ali? It all depends on which Ali we're talking about. The Ali that defeated Cleveland Williams, Sonny Liston the 2nd time, Joe Frazier and George Foreman would be too much for Mike. Fighters like Quick Tillis and Buster Douglas laid out the blueprint for beating a fighter like Mike. Movement. Stick and move, box and tie him up in close. If you have a good chin to boost then you can beat Mike and Ali had one of the best chins(if not the best) in the history of the HW division. Ali would also have a big mental edge over Mike who was a bit screwy if you catch my drift. When the going got tough Ali got going (to paraphrase an old saying) wheras Mike folded. Styles make fights as we all know and Ali had just the right style for a puncher like Tyson. A young Ali, the one who got dropped by Banks and Cooper and had fits with Doug Jones, probably would have been KOed by MIke. But a fully mature Ali, bigger and stronger than the aforementioned version, would be too much for Mike.

[ironchamp]

Tyson was a brilliant "on top" destructive machine during his prime years. As much as we are disagree and counter back at each other, I'm positive you don't think he's god, because I sure don't think he's the devil.

He was shot post prison. To what extent exactly?. Because Tyson looked pretty good against McNeely, Mathias, Bruno, and Seldon. Before his fight with Holyfield, nobody was claiming he was looking shot in the four fights previously. Holyfield seen the openings, and capatalised on them, he also had the heart and self belief. Tyson was exposed, plain and simple. Coming to the conclusion he was not quite as good as his prime days I can accept, but "shot" is simply too strong.

Ali was shot against Holmes and Berbick, and Tyson against Lewis, Williams, and McBride.

I'll tell you one thing, Tyson looked awesome against Savarese 7 years ago. The timing and leverage of the left hook he dropped Savarse with was not a man who looked shot to me.

For once....Agreed..

I think Holyfield beat a good version of Tyson..

Again like Ali Tyson came back from his lay off with a loss in speed, fluidity, reflexes. While they were still well above average, his ring smarts should have carried him like they carried Ali but Tyson's ring smarts simply were not there.

Tyson looked rusty against McNeeley and Mathis.

He look sharp against Bruno and Seldon.

Holyfield prepared very well for Mike. He knew what he was going to do and planned it accordingly. He took away Mike's left hook completely.

[Duodenum]

Agreed.

I have no doubt that if Tyson suffered a KD from the likes of Thomas, Berbick, Holmes, Spinks or any of his other foes from the late 80s he would have got up and gone on to win. But, he was both too elusive and too rock chinned. Surely this shouldn't count against him.

To put it further into perspective. How does his 4 year '86-'89 spell compare to other HWs in terms of not only never hitting the deck, but not looking close to hitting the deck? To my mind, most impressive indeed...

Which HWs compare favourably to this?That's a rather intriguing query.

Jeffries wasn't dropped until his comeback (during an era of 2 ounce gloves). Holmes wasn't dropped from Snipes in 1981 to Tyson in 1988, and then, never again in his remaining 24 matches over the next 14 years (Esch didn't drop him to the deck anymore than Roldan punched down Hagler). Foreman was never floored during his second career, spanning ten years and 34 fights. It can be argued that Ali did not sustain a legitimate KD from the FOTC to the end of his career against Berbick nearly eleven years later, a span of 29 matches.

Tunney was only dropped by Dempsey, in the next to last bout of his career, his 86th contest. Max Baer was floored by Louis in Baer's 49th battle, then not again, until Lou Nova retired him in Baer's 94th match, nearly six years later. Of course Chuvalo was never dropped in 93 bouts over a span of more than 22 years (although Frazier and Foreman stopped him on his feet).

In 28 fights over more than eight years, nobody came close to flooring Liston (from the middle bout with Marshall, until Clay nearly scored an early third round KD in their first encounter nearly identical to the one Ali actually did score the next year in Maine), then not again until Leotis Martin put him down and out over four years later.

In Tony Galento's 110 fights, I can only find evidence for Joe Louis flooring Two-Ton in his 104th match. (If true, this might make Galento the only HW to get through his first 100 competitive fights without tasting the canvas. Tony deserves enormous credit for coming off the deck to return the favor, something no other opponent of Louis's could lay claim to in Joe's 72 match career spanning over 17 years.) Uzcudun was only floored by Louis, in the 70th and final match of Paulino's career, spanning a stretch of over a dozen years boxing with five and six ounce gloves.

While Tyson was certainly not chinny by any stretch of the imagination, his ability to remain upright was not unprecedented either.

[NickHudson]

Thanks for the info and effort Duo, much appreciated.

Jeffries, Tunney, Liston. Amazing!

The Foreman 'phoenix from the ashes' career is a good one, but Holy did put some serious hurt on him on some of their rounds. Likewise, Ali got smashed around during his second phase (71-78) even if he didnt actually hit the deck. During Tyson 86-89 you never saw him being 'comboed' to death like 2nd career Foreman and Ali.

Concede the Holmes stat, but admittedly it does include prolonged inactivity and some very ordinary contenders...

Love the comment on Galento, that is surely a great stat. But Galento, like Chuvalo, wasn't the champ defending against legit #1 contenders like Iron Mike was.

Great food for thought.

That's a rather intriguing query.

Jeffries wasn't dropped until his comeback (during an era of 2 ounce gloves). Holmes wasn't dropped from Snipes in 1981 to Tyson in 1988, and then, never again in his remaining 24 matches over the next 14 years (Esch didn't drop him to the deck anymore than Roldan punched down Hagler). Foreman was never floored during his second career, spanning ten years and 34 fights. It can be argued that Ali did not sustain a legitimate KD from the FOTC to the end of his career against Berbick nearly eleven years later, a span of 29 matches.

Tunney was only dropped by Dempsey, in the next to last bout of his career, his 86th contest. Max Baer was floored by Louis in Baer's 49th battle, then not again, until Lou Nova retired him in Baer's 94th match, nearly six years later. Of course Chuvalo was never dropped in 93 bouts over a span of more than 22 years (although Frazier and Foreman stopped him on his feet).

In 28 fights over more than eight years, nobody came close to flooring Liston (from the middle bout with Marshall, until Clay nearly scored an early third round KD in their first encounter nearly identical to the one Ali actually did score the next year in Maine), then not again until Leotis Martin put him down and out over four years later.

In Tony Galento's 110 fights, I can only find evidence for Joe Louis flooring Two-Ton in his 104th match. (If true, this might make Galento the only HW to get through his first 100 competitive fights without tasting the canvas. Tony deserves enormous credit for coming off the deck to return the favor, something no other opponent of Louis's could lay claim to in Joe's 72 match career spanning over 17 years.) Uzcudun was only floored by Louis, in the 70th and final match of Paulino's career, spanning a stretch of over a dozen years boxing with five and six ounce gloves.

While Tyson was certainly not chinny by any stretch of the imagination, his ability to remain upright was not unprecedented either.

[booradley]

Boxing fans of the late 80's and 90's often think Tyson was a great fighter. That is mostly due to the level of competition during that era. Had he fought in the same era as Ali or Holmes it would be a different story. In Ali's era he would have been considered a B level fighter. Later with Larry Holmes as the dominate force in the HW division Tyson would have faired better, but he would never have been champion. Put Tyson against a prime Ali or a prime Holmes he loses 9 out of 10 times against either. Put him with Liston; he'd probably win 1 out of 3. Against Marciano, he gets brutalized. I mean think about it. Was Buster Douglas better than Ali, or Holmes. Was he better than Marciano, Foreman, or Patterson? To me the whole question of Tyson ever beating any of the ATG's at HW while they were in their prime is ridiculous. Tyson against Ali in Ali's era would never have come up. Prime for Prime Ali wins by humilation.

Boo

[Holmes' Jab]

The smart money is on a close, but clear UD for Ali. However, a prime-time Tyson has a genuine shot at beaten anybody on his best night- he'd have to do it before the mid-rounds in this one though, and given Ali's great chin, powers of recovery and movement it would be an extremely tough ask. Ali eventually takes Tyson into the deep water of the later rounds after braving out the early stages, Can't see a stoppage, though the longer this fight goes on the less it favours Tyson.

Ali UD15 Tyson

[mcvey]

:-(
Holmes was DESTROYED. He had a majority of his jabs slipped and his right hands had zero effect on tyson's chin, tyson was landing his jab throughout the first 3 rounds untill he timed the perfect right hand which obliterated holmes. Holmes could never beat tyson, He lacked the uppercut and inside fighting ability to even trouble tyson and his weakness to right hands made him an easy target.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]
Holmes had one of the best uppercuts of the Heavyweight Champions,check out his fight with Mike Weaver.

[McGrain]

Ali UD15 Tyson

NICE avatar.

[JohnThomas1]

Holmes had THE shittiest era in heavyweight history bar non, tyson dominated all the people larry " the mallard" holmes ducked/struggled with.

Of course translated some of this means Tyson mopped up the guys Holmes had already beaten. It also means they were older and usually had some taken out of them, most often by Larry. Also, if Holmes era was the shittiest and you tell us how Tyson was fighting a lot of the same opponents.......

Tyson dominated holmes 11/10 times, get the fuck out of here, they met, tyson obliterated him.

Lewis, Douglas and Holyfield obliterated Tyson too, not to mention Danny Williams and McBride showing him who was daddy.

Ali's era was remarkably weak, it's only idiots like yourself who get caught up in the ali legend and the vicious cycle of 70's overratedness.

Foreman would have mopped the floor with your precious Mike Tyson and Frazier was close to even money too. Tyson fought 2 great opponents and they both mopped the floor with him.

Marciano would be facing a heavier, faster, more skilled, harder hitting, better chinned version of himself. Tyson TKO 1.

Don't forget he'd also be fighting someone with about 1/4 of his heart and resolve. Tyson better get him out fast too :lol:

[JohnThomas1]

Holmes had one of the best uppercuts of the Heavyweight Champions,check out his fight with Mike Weaver.

He must be rating the Holmes that fought Tyson and i agree with him, by this time Holmes had nothing at all. Holmes uppercut in his peak would have given Tyson fits.

[Holmes' Jab]

NICE avatar.

Yeah, gem of an album wasn't it? Amongst the greatest ever committed to vinyl. No doubt. :good

Pity about the sophomore slump, though ... :-(

[Muskyrat]

Would be similar to the frasier fights but tyson not having smokey joes stamina would be exhausted and become increasingly frustrated by Ali.
consequently He'd get KO'd in the 8th or 9th round

[Muskyrat]

Ali's era was so "weak "he beat a prime foreman who came back in tysons era and won a world title.
hell of a long "weak" era it mustve been too

[codeman99998]

Saying that Tyson was a 42-1 favorite over Buster is pretty much the worst claim you can make for his greatness. He not only lost that fight, he was beaten very very badly.

Tyson could not KO or hurt Holyfield, who has pretty decent chin to say the least. He could not KO or hurt Douglas. Ali probably has a better chin than both of those fighters.

There is no justification for thinking that Tyson could KO Ali. This is no bash on Tyson, there is no justification for thinking that any of the top HWs today could KO, say, Valuev. When a fighter has a reputation for REFUSING to get KOd and NOT getting KOd, when he fights at the HW elite level, it's tough to give anyone enough credit that they would be able to.

Ali is a better fighter, and a sorta similar fighter, to Buster Douglas. Mike Tyson MAY be a better fighter than Joe Frazier, but I wouldn't necessarily bet my life on it. Also, Ali beat Frazier 2 out of 3.

Liston had a somewhat similar style to Tyson, and he was beaten handily by Ali in the 60s.

[Joe E]

Thats right.I forgot Mike was a Rhodes Scholar and a member of the Mensa Society.Ali takes it in an embarassment.

[codeman99998]

Tyson went 12 rounds multiple times without being "exhuasted", he wouldn't become frustrated against ali because 1. He can land on ali and 2. Ali doesnt have the infighting ability or power to push tyson back.
The problem with your arguing style is that you are presenting opinion (basically, just GUESSES) as facts without laying down the facts that substantiate your claims.

1. He can land on ALI.

That's a bold as hell fucking statement to make without substantiating it.

2. Ali doesn't have the infighting ability or power to push Tyson back.

The problem with that statement is that it's irrelevant. It is a common boxing fan misunderstanding that you have to have power to STOP an incoming fighter in all situations, and without it, the tougher fighter will just "walk through" all of the punches and land easily. This is a common idea among people who don't really understand how boxing works.

Ask Floyd Mayweather, against Iron chinned Baldomir, if his lack of power and Baldo's great chin and Floyd's lack of inside fighting was enough for Baldomir to win.

I'm not saying Tyson is Baldomir, I'm just saying, when the BASIS of what you are saying is wrong, than what you say has no credit.

[josak]

He deliberately got himself disqualified, nothing could be more obvious, that's why the ear bit happened twice.
I don't buy that Teddy Atlas theory. I've watched the fight many times. Tyson was having a great round - he hit Holyfield flush with a left hook and a jab/right-cross. The earbite came out of no-where and no one knows why it happened except Tyson. Someone who wants out of a fight is scared and Tyson wasn't scared -- he was pissed. It took like 50 security guards to restrain him afterwards. He was trying to kill Holyfield. He was getting headbutted. Tyson's from the streets, he had a violent past -- he's also one hot-tempered mofo, so that's enough explanation right there. And Tyson bit Lewis in the press conference too; so he was trying to get out of that fight too?

[josak]

Originally Posted by MR KOOL
Muhammad Ali 12 UD WINS


Mike Tyson is one dimensional you knew what you where going to get with Mike Tyson.
No, He was one dimensional in the sense that he fought moving forward. he had an excellent jab, a better left hook than joe frazier, a cast iron chin, incredibly tight defense, a good workrate and legendary headmovement. He would be the best puncher ali has ever fought and arguably the hardest hitter ( if you dont buy into the foreman myth like so many do)



Muhammad Ali is not one dimensional, he can fight coming forward, on the back foot, he can totally out move fighters.

When have you ever seen Muhammad ali come forward and press the attack effectively against a world class opponent? He was incredibly awkward when forced to attack

Muhammad Ali has the best footwork, speed and co-ordination of any heavyweight in history, and his hand speed is immense, and Muhammad Ail had a laser like Jab,

Tunney had better footwork, Patterson was faster, and louis was more cordinated and balanced. Tyson could move forward faster than ali could move backward and the two are equals in handspeed. Ali had a fast jab with little power behind it, Tyson's specialty is taking away jabs anyway.



all the tools to beat Mike Tyson,
He doesnt have the power or the uppercut needed to hurt and back tyson up.

Tony Tucker laid the blue print how to beat Mike Tyson.
Tony tucker lost 11 rounds versus tyson and won the first round by using his power and uppercut, ali had neither

Mike Tyson had big problems with anybody, who could move, take a punch, and execute fast combinations, and this frustrated and confused him.

You mean like tyrell biggs and pinklon thomas? You need power to bother mike tyson, ali doesnt have it. Ali doesnt have combinations, he has a jab and a right cross, both easy to slip punches for tyson.

Muhammad Ali would know this, and adopt and stick and move tatics, and who was better, combinations. With fast combinations, this fight will frustrate Mike Tyson.
No. Stick and move was the sure way to LOSE against tyson. Cus D'amato specifically trained tyson to fight larry holmes, an ali clone. This training involved extensive work in slipping jabs and countering.


the only chance Mike Tyson has got is a K.O, there is no way he dominates Muhammad Ali round after round,.

Joe Frazier did it.




Mike Tyson is one dimensional, and if Tony Tucker, James Quick Tills, can dance and stick and move against Mike Tyson for 12 rounds.

They did it against what is not a peak tyson, and they weren sticking and moving, they were moving and holding on for dear life.


Muhammad Ali will tear apart Mike Tyson physical atomy, he will totally Molester Mike Tyson.

You suck at life AND at english


Muhammad is too big, fast and skillful. Mike Tyson's work rate was nothing out of this world in his prime,

Tyson was bigger, just as fast, and much more techincally skilled. His workrate was 60 punches a round in his prime, that is not significantly lower than joe frazier.


Muhammad Ali was overall had more endurance than Mike Tyson.
So?


And is not stupid, nothing is getting played into Mike Tyson's hands. It’s Lennox Lewis vs. Mike Tyson 2002 all over again, gorilla warfare.

Lennox is a 6'5 230 pound clincher puncher who is nothing like Ali, Tyson was almost 15 years past his best in that fight and its spelled guerrila warfar you stupid cock.


The Muhammad Ali that fought Sonny Listen, and the Muhammad Ali that fought Joe Frasier all three times, totally Molesters Mike Tyson for 12 rounds.

Wrong. You suck.
Tyson KO 6 Ali
:good

[hobgoblin]

Tyson could not KO or hurt Holyfield. He could not KO or hurt Douglas.
Don't go there. Holyfield was rocked and sent reeling back on MANY occasions - you just didn't notice because Holy is a warrior who made it LOOK like little. Watch first 3s of the first fight and you'll know what I mean. Did you forget the Douglas knockdown in round 8? Dougie recovered but he definitely was hurt, no question.

Are you trying to suggest that a puncher of Tyson's caliber will not be ABLE to hurt Muhammad Ali? Forget rating him as fighter, how do you rate him as a puncher? Earnie Shavers was a HORRIBLE fighter but an all time great puncher. How does Tyson rank as a puncher? I personally rate only Joe Louis above him - not Dempsey, Foreman, Liston, Marciano, Shavers etc. Every punch of his was bread and butter punch and it came at blazing speed and angle and power. His delivery without question was second only to Joe Louis. Watch Foreman throw a right hand watch Tyson do it -you'll know what I mean.

[Shake]

It's a tough fight, but I don't see Mike being very successful with his leaping left hook early. Frazier was, but he got inside before throwing it, eating leather in the process. Ali was a very focussed fighter and ring general, and I think he'd adjust accordingly.

Then again, Tyson's head-movement was great. He might be able to slip the Ali jab.

I don't buy Tyson manhandling Ali, though. I rather see it the other way around. Leaping left from Tyson, slip, clinch, push from Ali. With the amount of punishment Ali could take, I think he'd swell Tyson's eyes (above his peek-a-boo guard) almost shut before wilting from Tyson's battering.

[Shake]

And Shavers had a heavier blow than Tyson and Louis both. You can't knock out Ali with a single punch -- but it's possible Tyson could K.O him with multiples, of course.

The Shavers shot Ali ate was, I believe, the heaviest blow that didn't produce a knockdown or stoppage. On the other hand, Tyson wouldn't let Ali off the hook as Shavers did. Ali's clinching was ATG, though.

Nasty fight to predict. Hold a gun to my head and I go with Ali, but it's a very volatile and fluid match.

[Shake]

Yeah, Patterson scared the hell out of him. :roll:

Tyson would outjab him with his tremendous reach and timing.

[Shake]

If you asked me honestly what Ali hated, it's a good counterpuncher. Or someone like Joe, who reckons being hit in the face is a good thing since the opponents guard is down.

[Shake]

I have no idea which fight you watched, but in the one I saw, Ali tortured Patterson, and could have ended him way sooner than he did.

[torchkit]

Ali v Tyson is a tough call. It would likely come down to the referee. If the ref lets Ali cheat (holding and hitting, rabbit punches) then Tyson would probably get frustrated and get DQ'd for biting.

If Ali is forced to follow the rules, and has points taken away and faces DQ, he might lose to Tyson. He definitely would have lost to Frazier in Manilla, and to several other opponents.

[codeman99998]

Tyson has all the advantages

1. Tyson biggest money punch is Ali's biggest weakness
2. Ali hated fighting people as fast as himself ( patterson)
3. Ali hated pressure ( Jones, Frazier)
4. Ali hated people who could time his jab and jab back at him ( Norton, Holmes), Tyson had an excellent jab.

Yes, but what's really important is that he beat all of the fighters you mentioned (except Holmes, at the very end of his career.)

I was wrong when I said Tyson didn't hurt Douglas. I, seriously, did forget about the KD (I don't know how, with all of the controversy caused by Don King).

Tyson was a good puncher but he didn't KO the best.

[Robbi]

Ali would have beaten Tyson. Not only with skill, but mental strength as well.

[MachineGunMitch]

Ali would be saying to Tyson
WHATS MY NAME ....bitch..

Ali ownsall

[Muchmoore]

If Tyson did so well against a fighter like Ali why did he have so much trouble with a fighter of similar style but not nearly the skill in Quick Tillis?

Ali by UD.

Because Tyson was sick for the fight. He didnt have that much trouble anyway, Tillis won 3 rounds tops.

And I could use the same logic for Ali, if he is so good against Tyson then why did he get dropped and nearly stopped by Cooper?

[Marcianothebest]

Ali that's funny he'd a killed Tyson:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[fists of fury]

As much as I love Iron Mike, Ali would deal with mentally before the fight. He'd make Mike doubt himself, and a Tyson who doesn't believe in himself can't beat Ali.
It would be close for a while, but down the stretch Ali would prevail, possibly by stoppage.

[Sweet Science]

If you took the Tyson who beat Spinks in 88' and took the Ali from 66' who beat Cleveland Williams (I think that would be the time they were in their respective primes). If they were to fight each other, Ali would keep Tyson on the end of his jab all night long and win a comfortable UD.


There isn't a man that has walked this earth who could have beaten that version of Ali. He was untouchable.

[NickHudson]

I used to have a magazine which did a great feature on Tyson, with great info on every one of his fights.

Tyson himself admitted that the combination of the flash knockdown (where hardman Tillis famously smiles then gets back up) and the home crowd sneaked him the decision.

It was much closer than you guys are making out.

he won 8 rounds against tillis, 6 if you have some sort of deep seated hatred of him. and he knocked him down in the fourth.

Hardly " struggling"