EliteXC/Strikeforce: Shamrock vs. Cung

[Tko4]

It's tonight, folks, and if you can't tell...I'm rather excited.

Who's going to be watching?

[AJAX]

If I get my satellite back running I would likely.

[LB3000]

It's a shame injuries (Shields, Cyborg) and issues with the CSAC (Diaz) have ruined the fight card. However, I am looking forward to the main event. :good

[Action]

I have my finger on the remote.
winner versus Silva Anderson?

[WiDDoW_MaKeR]

I will be watching. I have always wanted to see how Cung Le would do against top fighters.

[IntentionalButt]

I might check this out, as there's no boxing. :good

[El Matador]

I'll be watching; it's a very interesting fight, considering they apparently sparred years ago, and Shamrock admits to getting his "ass kicked".

Since then, Shamrock has established himself as one of the most accomplished and most well-rounded MM-artists, knocking out Tito Ortiz among others, while Cung Le has fought no-names in san-shoe rules fights for K-1 (and some MMA fights for Elite XC).

When it's all said and done, I believe Shamrock is the better striker and submission artists. One problem- where's his conditioning at?

Shamrock, by knockout, two rounds.

[Tko4]

I will be watching. I have always wanted to see how Cung Le would do against top fighters.

That's what has me excited. He's either going to live up the hype, or get destroyed. The rest of the card's not great, but MMA is MMA. :happy

[Tko4]

Alright, it's go time! And Shamrock is saying he is going to stand with Cung and not try to grapple. He should easily be able to handle Cung if he takes him down, but I think he's going to be in for a rude awakening on his feet.

[IntentionalButt]

Villasenor's knockout of Jensen was NICE.

[Tko4]

I'll try to do some updates in case anyone wants them. If not, oh well.

First fight: Ryan Jensen vs. Joey Villasenor

Villasenor gets the early takedown and Jensen sucks him into a defensive guard. For about 2.5 minutes, Villasenor doesn't do much of anything in the guard, and Jensen finally gets to his feet (much to the delight of the fans).

Villasenor pops Jensen with a clean punch that hurts him, but he recovers and comes back with a vengeance. Jensen starts tagging Villasenor with jabs and straight right hands, then he lands two vicious, vicious leg kicks. Villasenor seems hurt by the kicks, and Jensen opens up again with the hands. Then out of almost no where, Villasenor drills him with a ridiculously hard right hand.

Jensen falls about 5 feet, right onto the side of his head. He's completely out.

[Tko4]

Villasenor's knockout of Jensen was NICE.

Yeah, that looked like it hurt. He literally went flying when that punch hit him.

[IntentionalButt]

I'll try to do some updates in case anyone wants them. If no, oh well.

First fight: Ryan Jensen vs. Joey Villasenor

Villasenor gets the early takedown and Jensen sucks him into a defensive guard. For about 2.5 minutes, Villasenor doesn't do much of anything in the guard, and Jensen finally gets to his feet (much to the delight of the fans).

Villasenor pops Jensen with a clean punch that hurts him, but he recovers and comes back with a vengeance. Jensen starts tagging Villasenor with jabs and straight right hands, then he lands two vicious, vicious leg kicks. Villasenor seems hurt by the kicks, and Jensen opens up again with the hands. Then out of almost no where, Villasenor drills him with a ridiculously hard right hand.

Jensen falls about 5 feet, right onto the side of his head. He's completely out. Villasenor doesn't even bother to take a step forward or jump on him.

:huh Villasenor dropped down to one knee and punched him in the head while he was unconscious, about a second after he hit the ground.

[Tko4]

:huh Villasenor dropped down to one knee and punched him in the head while he was unconscious, about a second after he hit the ground.

Okay, somehow I completely missed that. Last thing I saw was Jensen laying there against the cage, out cold.

[IntentionalButt]

Lightning fast sub by Wayne Cole. That tap was immediate, and what - twenty seconds into the fight? Not even?

On the replay this was kind of ridiculous, the difference in reflexes and form...looks like a pro and an amateur.

[Tko4]

Fight 2: Wayne Cole vs. Mike Kyle

Both men touch gloves. Cole throws a few jabs, then clinches with Kyle. He then trips Kyle down, almost gets the mount immediately, but instead gets side control. Then he pops the easiest looking armbar of all time, and Kyle taps about 30 seconds in.

It's nice to see Kyle lose. I can't stand that guy after he was suspended a couple years back.

[Tko4]

Lightning fast sub by Wayne Cole. That tap was immediate, and what - twenty seconds into the fight? Not even?

On the replay this was kind of ridiculous, the difference in reflexes and form...looks like a pro and an amateur.

That armbar was near perfect. Beautiful display of jiu jitsu from a 37-year old NCAA wrestler. Who says you can't teach an old dog new tricks?

[Tko4]

I love how Goldberg is playing Kimbo up and how popular he is, and the fans are booing him. Classic.

[chimba]

id bet on Cung Lee now if I could...I have a good feeling about it

hes on a collision course with Anderson

[El Puma]

id bet on Cung Lee now if I could...I have a good feeling about it

hes on a collision course with AndersonI respectfully disagree, he has as much chance of beating Frank as any of us bedding the young woman in your avatar.

[sugarngold]

Thanks for the play by play. I was going to watch this at a friend's house - but it's been a long day and I decided against it at the last minute.

I stand by my prediction of Cung Le TKO/KO Shamrock.

[sugarngold]

Thanks for the play by play. I was going to watch this at a friend's house - but it's been a long day and I decided against it at the last minute.

I stand by my prediction of Cung Le TKO/KO Shamrock.
Yeah - what he said.

[IntentionalButt]

I love how Goldberg is playing Kimbo up and how popular he is, and the fans are booing him. Classic.

As soon as I realized there was just going to be some gay promo and not another fight, I went to change my laundry.

Got back in time to catch Melendez finishing that other guy with a hailstorm of strikes. :good

[Tko4]

Fight 3: Gabe Lemley vs. Gilbert Melendez

Melendez beats the hell out of Lemley for about a round and half with some brutal ground and pound. Lemely was saved by the bell in the first, but didn't make it far enough in the second. He was a bruised and bloody mess when Herb Dean steps in and stops it.

[El Puma]

Fight 3: Gabe Lemley vs. Gilbert Melendez

Melendez beats the hell out of Lemley for about a round and half with some brutal ground and pound. Lemely was saved by the bell in the first, but didn't make it far enough in the second. He was a bruised and bloody mess when Herb Dean steps in and stops it.Would love to see Gilbert get his title back.

[chimba]

This shit is in ******* uninterrupted...MMA TV

[Tko4]

I respectfully disagree, he has as much chance of beating Frank as any of us bedding the young woman in your avatar.

Speak for yourself. I'm gonna land Stokke :good

But yeah, Frank shouldn't lose this fight. The only way I see him losing if he fights the stupidest fight of all time and refuses to even attempt a shot.

[El Puma]

Speak for yourself. I'm gonna land Stokke :good

But yeah, Frank shouldn't lose this fight. The only way I see him losing if he fights the stupidest fight of all time and refuses to even attempt a shot.We at ESB demand the release of pics and videos pertaining to said conquest. May the Force be with you:D

Indeed, Frank is not stupid and he is quite possibly the most analytical fighter in MMA today and top 3 all time.

[IntentionalButt]

I thought people were excited about this fight because it was supposed to be competitive...did I get that wrong? I don't actually know much about Le.

[Tko4]

Fight 4: Jae Suk Lim vs. Drew Fickett

Fickett gets him in the guillotine about a minute in and puts this one away early.

[Tko4]

I thought people were excited about this fight because it was supposed to be competitive...did I get that wrong? I don't actually know much about Le.
All the fights have been very one-sided. Fast and fun, yes, but not competitive. Bad matchmaking? The stuff with Shields and Diaz didn't help, either.

[Tko4]

Alright, it's Cung vs. Shamrock time! Damn, I hope this thing wasn't supposed to go three hours because the main event is starting at 10:20. :rofl

[IntentionalButt]

Alright, it's Cung vs. Shamrock time! Damn, I hope this thing wasn't supposed to go three hours because the main event is starting at 10:20. :rofl

Showtime's slot on my cable guide is scheduled from 9-11.

[chimba]

Is it just me or I see this production somewhat bigger than any UFC shows lately..I dare say that its because of the Shamrock brand or teh good publicity theyve gotten lately..maybe it Le being a Socal guy as well

They land fedor or something UFCs got some serious competition..Shaw over Dana any day

[Tko4]

Showtime's slot on my cable guide is scheduled from 9-11.

Okay, so this will fit in perfectly. Apparently they knew all the fights would be short.

[chimba]

Damn Im excited..they kinda copied Pride with the entrances...Wished Cung had more power lets see if he can stuff Franks TD

[Tko4]

Is it just me or I see this production somewhat bigger than any UFC shows lately..I dare say that its because of the Shamrock brand or teh good publicity theyve gotten lately..maybe it Le being a Socal guy as well

They land fedor or something UFCs got some serious competition..Shaw over Dana any day

It def. looks more grand, with the big arena and big entrances. They've got a crisp production, but Bill Goldberg has to go. The guy doesn't know MMA, and his post fight interviews are horrible...

[sugarngold]

Is it just me or I see this production somewhat bigger than any UFC shows lately..I dare say that its because of the Shamrock brand or teh good publicity theyve gotten lately..maybe it Le being a Socal guy as well

They land fedor or something UFCs got some serious competition..Shaw over Dana any day

Elite XC puts on good shows. If they keep on course - they could become the second most recognizable brand in MMA. The UFC will always have that brand name advantage from being the first American known MMA brand. Dana White is the VInce MachMahon of MMA - so I don't see him going away any time soon - but Gary Shaw could make some noise in the scene. The competition keeps things interesting.

[sugarngold]

It def. looks more grand, with the big arena and big entrances. They've got a crisp production, but Bill Goldberg has to go. The guy doesn't know MMA, and his post fight interviews are horrible...


They should bring in Quatros and Rutten.

[chimba]

It def. looks more grand, with the big arena and big entrances. They've got a crisp production, but Bill Goldberg has to go. The guy doesn't know MMA, and his post fight interviews are horrible...

lol Goldberg is a fuckin Joke...That Kimbo interview was horrible..I thought Kimbo was going to slap him :lol:

[IntentionalButt]

That first thirty seconds was very cool!

[IntentionalButt]

Barring some lazy measuring kicks from Frank and that one takedown attempt, it's been all Le halfway through 1st. Tagged him with at least one very solid kick and an overhand.

[IntentionalButt]

Shamrock came on stronger in second half. Tough round to score, literally split it in half.

[sugarngold]

Sounds like a good fight.

[chimba]

I love Frank Shamrock!! Hes fuckin awesome!!!

[Tko4]

Shamrock came on stronger in second half. Tough round to score, literally split it in half.

Yeah, I had it fairly even. Shamrock probably could have subbed Cung if he actually tried. I'm not sure why he insists of putting Cung to sleep. Could backfire on him.

[sugarngold]

I love Frank Shamrock!! Hes fuckin awesome!!!

Frank is a great fighter.

[IntentionalButt]

This fight is flying by. Both guys fighting very technical fights but at a steady pace. I want more than 5 rounds of this. It very likely won't even go 5 though. :yep

CL getting the better of most exchanges in 2nd..

[sugarngold]

This fight is flying by. Both guys fighting very technical fights but at a steady pace. I want more than 5 rounds of this. It very likely won't even go 5 though. :yep

CL getting the better of most exchanges in 2nd..
Cung Le's standup game is on another level - in my humble opinion of course.

[IntentionalButt]

Yeah, I had it fairly even. Shamrock probably could have subbed Cung if he actually tried. I'm not sure why he insists of putting Cung to sleep. Could backfire on him.

He's definitely got machismo written on his face tonight.

[ravtrav]

The announcers love some Frank Shamrock

[IntentionalButt]

The announcers love some Frank Shamrock

But all have a Le shutout so far. :yep

[Tko4]

He's definitely got machismo written on his face tonight.

Yeah, and I don't think he's fighting a very smart fight. I said the only way Shamrock would lose is if he fought a stupid fight, and he's fighting one right now. He's proved that he can stand with Cung...now he needs to just take him down and put an end to this.

[IntentionalButt]

Yeah, and I don't think he's fighting a very smart fight. I said the only way Shamrock would lose is if he fought a stupid fight, and he's fighting one right now. He's proved that he can stand with Cung...now he needs to just take him down and put an end to this.

You called this shit on the money. :good

[IntentionalButt]

WOW backhand by Le

also

WOW leg sweep by Le

[chimba]

Cung Le's standup game is on another level - in my humble opinion of course.

Anderson will kill both these guys
Les not in Silvas level...just because he doesnt have the same power and not as crisp.. He wastes alot of kicks.. Franks should put this to the ground though fast, hell lose by decision

[IntentionalButt]

Cung is HURT - minute left in the 3rd

[sugarngold]

Anderson will kill both these guys
Les not in Silvas level...just because he doesnt have the same power and not as crisp.. He wastes alot of kicks.. Franks should put this to the ground though fast, hell lose by decision

I agree. Anderson Silva would handle both of them - but what great fights they would be along the way.

[ravtrav]

Franks taking too many shots

[ravtrav]

Cung Le wins

[IntentionalButt]

Shamrock was chasing him around tagging him at will, Cung's face opening up the entire last minute of round 3...Cung did get some distance in the last fifteen seconds and landed an insanely BRUTAL kick to the head. Then a quick flurry and another similarly BRUTAL kick before the bell. Shamrock bleeding as well.

FIGHT OVER! Shamrock cannot answer bell for 4th!

[chimba]

One of the greatest fights Ive ever seen in MMa so far ..Stand up technically

[sugarngold]

Wow.

Ah thank yew. Ah thank yew.

[IntentionalButt]

Le was in serious danger of getting stopped there...nice job not only surviving the round but turning it around at the end...those last two kicks are what won him the fight IMO, they fucking thunderclapped off Frank's skull. Had those not landed he might have been finished off in the next round.

Announcers are saying it was actually an arm injury :blood

I think it has to be the kicks to the head...

[chimba]

I called the fight...

[Tko4]

Um, Shamrock can't answer the bell?

[IntentionalButt]

Um, Shamrock can't answer the bell?

Physician stoppage at Shamrock's request, my bad.

[Tko4]

That was an insane fight. Nothing like I expected. I'd say Silva would throw Cung into the Muy Thai clinch and knee him through the roof if they ever fought...but who knows. This sport is crazy. Entertaining...but crazy.

[Tko4]

Physician stoppage at Shamrock's request, my bad.

No, I wasn't calling you out on that. I was trying to wrap my head around what was happening myself. Didn't expect him to not come out. So my only response was "um...".

[Tko4]

This fight solidifies it. Leg kicks are so the thing of the past. Arm kicks are the way to go. :blood

[chimba]

That was an insane fight. Nothing like I expected. I'd say Silva would throw Cung into the Muy Thai clinch and knee him through the roof if they ever fought...but who knows. This sport is crazy. Entertaining...but crazy.\

Silva would kill both too Big too strong too sharp...But this was a beautiful tactical fight..the amount of kicks blocked in this fight was insane. Mad respect for Frank..RESPECT..Long live MMA!!!

[IntentionalButt]

Didn't really get to see how well-rounded (or not) he is, but Cung Le has cemented himself in my mind as someone to watch (high praise as I'm a serious slackass when it comes to following this sport :lol:). That was some very sweet standup.

[El Puma]

Wow, uhm....damn *proceeds to eat humble pie*

Big congrats to Le on his win.

[IntentionalButt]

Frank saying Cung broke his right arm with a single kick. He's in a sling and wincing visibly. Damn...

[mann187]

Very good fight with excellent stand up hats off to both men, Shamrock took 2 huge kicks to the head but couldnt carry on. Le got caught by some big shots as well, best fight of year so far

[sugarngold]

Frank saying Cung broke his right arm with a single kick. He's in a sling and wincing visibly. Damn...

Amazing. I can't believe I missed this. lol

[audio101]

This sport is sooo much better when they stand on their feet!

[Tko4]

So, who can they give to Cung next... winner of Scott Smith and Robbie Lawler? Those are two guys better known for their standup, so I can't imagine they'd pose a huge threat to Cung. EliteXC needs to get a good ground fighter that doesn't wake up thinking he's an elite level kickboxer.

[chimba]

Frank wasnt elite but he did his homework..His standup was sharp., patient..aware..hands up.

any other guy like Lawler better take it to the ground fast (which I think is not an advantage for him against Cung)..With his wildness..Hed be lucky to last a round, maybe 2

[sugarngold]

So, who can they give to Cung next... winner of Scott Smith and Robbie Lawler?

That sounds like the perfect way to go. A fight between Le and Lawler would be highly entertaining while it lasts.

[J_Roth]

Great fight. Frank losing nothing IMHO. I would love to love to see a rematch where Frank actually uses all his tools. Cung is a better stand up guy and Frank should dominate the ground if he can get him there. I've been watching Cung since his San Shou days and I have to say that his stand up is solid. Le vs Silva would be a war on the feet. Anderson is a bad man though.

[IntentionalButt]

I wouldn't bet a red cent on Robbie. :yep

[chimba]

I wouldn't bet a red cent on Robbie. :yep

The kid is half Pinoy but that mean shit to me:lol:

[WiDDoW_MaKeR]

Great fight... I don't want to hear people pretending like Frank CHOSE to stand with Cung Le, either. Frank clearly tried to take him down, but he couldn't. Cung is a better wrestler than Frank is, but Frank is a better grappler while on the ground. Frank couldn't get him down, and Cung absolutely tooled Frank on their feet. Great fight.

[chimba]

Great fight... I don't want to hear people pretending like Frank CHOSE to stand with Cung Le, either. Frank clearly tried to take him down, but he couldn't. Cung is a better wrestler than Frank is, but Frank is a better grappler while on the ground. Frank couldn't get him down, and Cung absolutely tooled Frank on their feet. Great fight.

Lets not forget the fact that Frank was willing to go to the ground...but only when Cung inside his guard.. He tried twice but it was obvious that Cungs base was pretty sturdy..especially how he popped back right up from when he missed that spin kick

[elixirvtec]

anyone got a link to the fight???

[IntentionalButt]

anyone got a link to the fight???

:? The fight ended barely two hours ago. I would think it would be at least tomorrow before clips surface.

[Tko4]

Great fight... I don't want to hear people pretending like Frank CHOSE to stand with Cung Le, either. Frank clearly tried to take him down, but he couldn't. Cung is a better wrestler than Frank is, but Frank is a better grappler while on the ground. Frank couldn't get him down, and Cung absolutely tooled Frank on their feet. Great fight.
I'd hardly call those much more than half-hearted attempts. He never shot for a double leg takedown. Someone looking to take someone down would have shot for them over and over, ala Monson on Sylvia (or even Nog on Sylvia). Shamrock only tried to get it to the ground when he was forced into a clinch and really had no other choice.

The other "attempt" wasn't even an attempt at all. He got knocked down, mockingly invited Cung into his guard (knowing full he wouldn't, so it was showmanship) and then got up.

So to say that he couldn't take Cung down is ridiculous. Shamrock never made a concerted effort to get a takedown. Frank fought like an idiot, and deserved to lose.

[Killer_Fish]

Well I just watch it on Showtime and it's the first I see of Cung Le in MMA. I would like to know how his other fights were like? How he handle being on the ground

[Tko4]

Well I just watch it on Showtime and it's the first I see of Cung Le in MMA. I would like to know how his other fights were like? How he handle being on the ground

He's never really been on the ground for any considerable amount of time. His fights pretty much all went like it did tonight, except he landed even more strikes against far weaker competition. He lands some punches and lots of bizarre kicks for a few rounds, and the accumulation of damage usually leads to some kind of stoppage.

[WiDDoW_MaKeR]

I'd hardly call those much more than half-hearted attempts. He never shot for a double leg takedown. Someone looking to take someone down would have shot for them over and over, ala Monson on Sylvia (or even Nog on Sylvia). Shamrock only tried to get it to the ground when he was forced into a clinch and really had no other choice.

The other "attempt" wasn't even an attempt at all. He got knocked down, mockingly invited Cung into his guard (knowing full he wouldn't, so it was showmanship) and then got up.

So to say that he couldn't take Cung down is ridiculous. Shamrock never made a concerted effort to get a takedown. Frank fought like an idiot, and deserved to lose.
Frank didn't take shots for two reasons....

1. Cung Le is a better wrestler than Shamrock. Taking a shot from the outside, especially the way that Cung uses movement and space, would not be a very effective strategy,

2. It would have put him in a bad position to eat some strikes, as I already stated that Cung is a better wrestler. Shamrock would have been in a vulnerable position.

The only reason that Cung wouldn't use his better takedowns to take Shamrock to the ground, is because he wouldn't want to play a submission game with him. We can't pretend like he didn't try to take Cung down, when you could see that everytime he had an opportunity to leap on him and put him down... he tried. We can't say that they were half hearted, just because Cung was able to escape.

Shamrock lost to a better fighter. Bad stylistic match-up for him. He dominates Shamrock on their feet, and Shamrock has a slim chance of taking the fight to the ground.

[sugarngold]

The fight is posted on Dailymotion today.

[Tko4]

Frank didn't take shots for two reasons....

1. Cung Le is a better wrestler than Shamrock. Taking a shot from the outside, especially the way that Cung uses movement and space, would not be a very effective strategy,

2. It would have put him in a bad position to eat some strikes, as I already stated that Cung is a better wrestler. Shamrock would have been in a vulnerable position.

The only reason that Cung wouldn't use his better takedowns to take Shamrock to the ground, is because he wouldn't want to play a submission game with him. We can't pretend like he didn't try to take Cung down, when you could see that everytime he had an opportunity to leap on him and put him down... he tried. We can't say that they were half hearted, just because Cung was able to escape.

Shamrock lost to a better fighter. Bad stylistic match-up for him. He dominates Shamrock on their feet, and Shamrock has a slim chance of taking the fight to the ground.

Shamrock said he wanted to stand with Cung, and he did. And you're trying to tell me Shamrock couldn't take him down, while also admitting he didn't try to shoot. And you're saying he didn't try because he knew Cung Le was a better wrestler. That makes no sense, and I don't buy it.

Of course, a paragraph later you're saying he was trying to take Cung down all the time. Seems slightly contradictory. I don't really know what fight you were watching. Certainly not the one last night.

Shamrock made no concerted effort to get a takedown. Show me evidence, beside that one weak ass attempt from the clinch in the first round.

I've also seen plenty of wrestler get taken down while watching MMA, so I don't buy the "Cung is such a great wrestler" argument. Shamrock's rolled on the mat with plenty of good wrestlers.

Shamrock wanted to stand. He said as much himself. And he didn't do anything to suggest his gameplan was any different. Wayne Cole said he wanted to stand, then immediately took his guy down. That was obviously a pysch out. When Shamrock said he wanted to stand, he clearly meant it. Otherwise, he would have tried what Cole tried. Plus, he said he would stand with Baroni, and for the most part, he did.

Shamrock is an arrogant little SOB and thought he could knock Cung out. At one point, he came close. He went into the fight with Andy Wang syndrome.

He deserved to lose. Cung was the better fighter on the feet. Cung still hasn't answered any questions about his ground game.

That's all there is to it.

[WiDDoW_MaKeR]

Shamrock said he wanted to stand with Cung, and he did. And you're trying to tell me Shamrock couldn't take him down, while also admitting he didn't try to shoot. And you're saying he didn't try because he knew Cung Le was a better wrestler. That makes no sense, and I don't buy it.

Of course, a paragraph later you're saying he was trying to take Cung down all the time. Seems slightly contradictory. I don't really know what fight you were watching. Certainly not the one last night.

Shamrock made no concerted effort to get a takedown. Show me evidence, beside that one weak ass attempt from the clinch in the first round.

I've also seen plenty of wrestler get taken down while watching MMA, so I don't buy the "Cung is such a great wrestler" argument. Shamrock's rolled on the mat with plenty of good wrestlers.

Shamrock wanted to stand. He said as much himself. And he didn't do anything to suggest his gameplan was any different. Wayne Cole said he wanted to stand, then immediately took his guy down. That was obviously a pysch out. When Shamrock said he wanted to stand, he clearly meant it. Otherwise, he would have tried what Cole tried. Plus, he said he would stand with Baroni, and for the most part, he did.

Shamrock is an arrogant little SOB and thought he could knock Cung out. At one point, he came close. He went into the fight with Andy Wang syndrome.

He deserved to lose. Cung was the better fighter on the feet. Cung still hasn't answered any questions about his ground game.

That's all there is to it.
Seems to me that you are doing nothing more than making excuses for Shamrock's loss. If he only wanted to stand with him... then why did he try to take him down when the opportunity presented itself? Did you see how easy Cung was able to get out of that situation? It wasn't because it was a "weak assed" attempt... it was because he couldn't take him down. Stop making excuses. Why on earth would Shamrock bother trying a "weak assed" takedown attempt? You aren't even making sense. I didn't contradict myself at all, maybe you just have some reading comprehension problems. Shamrock knows that Cung is a better wrestler, so he only tried takedowns when the opportunity for a takedown came up... and it didn't come up often as Cung was using movement, and space. Cung was the better fighter, period. He didn't prove himself on the ground, I never said that he did, and he didn't have to.

[WiDDoW_MaKeR]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

I guess that Shamrock was already prepared to go back on his promise to stand with Cung Le 23 seconds into the fight.:-( He was also willing to call Cung down into his guard... stop making excuses. Shamrock didn't take the fight to the ground because he couldn't get the fight to the ground.

[Tko4]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

I guess that Shamrock was already prepared to go back on his promise to stand with Cung Le 23 seconds into the fight.:-( He was also willing to call Cung down into his guard... stop making excuses. Shamrock didn't take the fight to the ground because he couldn't get the fight to the ground.
I'm not making excuses. I don't even like Shamrock...even the tiniest bit. He's an arrogant prick and deserved a broken arm.

But he only tried *once* to take Cung down, and it wasn't much of an attempt at all. And that "attempt" came from a clinch, where there really isn't much option. As for him inviting him into his guard, if you couldn't tell that was more showmanship than anything, you need to have your head checked. Shamrock clearly knew Cung wasn't going to just lay down his guard (how many fighters have ever done that anyway?), and was showboating. He mockingly invited him into his guard, and made motions several times that he wanted to put him to sleep.

So, yeah, Shamrock didn't try at all to take it the ground. If he wanted, he would have done it over and over and over until he got it. Nog struggled against Sylvia, but he finally got him down. Did the Shamrock fight look anything like that? No. Because Shamrock wanted it on his feet.

Anyway, I'm done with this argument. You can go on thinking whatever you want. I'm not even sure why I'm debating it at this point. I've got no problem with Cung, though I think he will eventually get exposed on the ground. And I can't stand Shamrock.

Oh, and 90 percent of the published reports on the fights have noted that Shamrock didn't try to take the fight to the ground. So seasoned MMA writers and I agree. It was quite plain to see.

[Beebs]

For the record, Lawler would smash Cung Le.

[WiDDoW_MaKeR]

I'm not making excuses. I don't even like Shamrock...even the tiniest bit. He's an arrogant prick and deserved a broken arm.

But he only tried *once* to take Cung down, and it wasn't much of an attempt at all. And that "attempt" came from a clinch, where there really isn't much option. As for him inviting him into his guard, if you couldn't tell that was more showmanship than anything, you need to have your head checked. Shamrock clearly knew Cung wasn't going to just lay down his guard (how many fighters have ever done that anyway?), and was showboating. He mockingly invited him into his guard, and made motions several times that he wanted to put him to sleep.

So, yeah, Shamrock didn't try at all to take it the ground. If he wanted, he would have done it over and over and over until he got it. Nog struggled against Sylvia, but he finally got him down. Did the Shamrock fight look anything like that? No. Because Shamrock wanted it on his feet.

Anyway, I'm done with this argument. You can go on thinking whatever you want. I'm not even sure why I'm debating it at this point. I've got no problem with Cung, though I think he will eventually get exposed on the ground. And I can't stand Shamrock.

Oh, and 90 percent of the published reports on the fights have noted that Shamrock didn't try to take the fight to the ground. So seasoned MMA writers and I agree. It was quite plain to see.
"Seasoned MMA writers?":lol: I happen to be pretty deep in the MMA world. I have been since 1994. That's 14 years of following, and training in MMA. Do you know how many times that I have heard a fighter "promise" to stand with his opponent? Do you know that it just always HAPPENS to be against a guy who is better on their feet, but has good takedown defense? They make that "promise" because they honestly don't believe that they will be able to score a takedown to begin with. However, in every single fight... you see that "promise" go out the window if opportunity presents itself... like Shamrock tried to do 23 seconds into the fight. I'm not knocking on your or anything... but when you are in an MMA fight, or even just heavy MMA sparring/rolling, ect... you can tell rather quick what your chances are of taking your opponent down. When you lock up with them, or try one takedown attempt, it gives you a good feel of exactly how that is going to go. The fact that Shamrock was able to get behind Cung, lock his hands, and have GREAT position for a takedown, and was still unable to take him down shows a lot. I think that it was rather clear from that point on to Frank that his chances of taking Cung down were slim. So he figured that he should just focus on the stand up game, and hope to land something huge. Let's not forget that they trained together... I am sure that Frank already knew how good Cung's takedown defense, and wrestling was.

If you listened to most people before the fight, people were trying to say that Shamrock was a better standup fighter than Le. I never believed that, but I think that a lot of people did, and Shamrock might have started believing it too. He probably felt that was his best chance to win.

[WiDDoW_MaKeR]

For the record, Lawler would smash Cung Le.
I have a feeling that we will find out.

[IntentionalButt]

For the record, Lawler would smash Cung Le.

Elaborate?

[chimba]

Elaborate?

Its the Pinoy blood in him ..Hes got PAC power!:yep

[Beebs]

Elaborate?

Better all around fighter basically. He has serious power, if Lawler lands like Frank or even Tony Frykland did that fight is done. Since moving to 185 Lawler has on a serius tear and has shown maturation as a fighter and profesional athlete, even in losing to Mayhem he looked great until getting subbed, which wouldn't happen against Le.

[charlievint]

For the record, Lawler would smash Cung Le.

Lawler gets KO'd by a head Kick from Cung.

[sugarngold]

Better all around fighter basically. He has serious power, if Lawler lands like Frank or even Tony Frykland did that fight is done. Since moving to 185 Lawler has on a serius tear and has shown maturation as a fighter and profesional athlete, even in losing to Mayhem he looked great until getting subbed, which wouldn't happen against Le.

I'll take whatever odds you're laying out. Cung Le will punish Robbie Lawler. Lawler's wild swings will walk him into Cung's feet - face first all night long. Luckily, we might see this fight sooner than later. It will take months for Shamrock to heal properly. That gives Le some free time to face some of the other Strikeforce/Elite XC fighters.

[IntentionalButt]

I'll take whatever odds you're laying out. Cung Le will punish Robbie Lawler. Lawler's wild swings will walk him into Cung's feet - face first all night long. Luckily, we might see this fight sooner than later. It will take months for Shamrock to heal properly. That gives Le some free time to face some of the other Strikeforce/Elite XC fighters.
I didn't really want to just counter stupidly going with my instincts based on limited exposure (I've seen like, three of Lawler's fights) :yep - but yeah, this is more in line with what I thought when confronted with the idea of Cung vs. Robbie. Would expect it to end well within the distance, likely never even getting to the ground.