View Full Version : Time To Re-Assess Cung Li
What are your objective thoughts about him now as an MMA fighter? He caught a lot of flak coming from the world of San Shou, and for fighting bums in this first few fights in MMA. He obviously has some skills and was underated by many. And, of course the tendency now after yesterday may be to overate him.
So what are your balanced opinions, all things equal?
hard to really judge last nights fight. shamrock is old and fought a stupid fight IMO. not trying to take anything away from Cung, but it really leaves some unanswered questions. it was a great night for him though.
Action
03-30-2008, 03:28 PM
hard to really judge last nights fight. shamrock is old and fought a stupid fight IMO. not trying to take anything away from Cung, but it really leaves some unanswered questions. it was a great night for him though.
Yeah Frank is old. He is 35......er....uh....hmm....Cung Le is 35. I guess he is old too. By the way how old is Chuck Liddell? How old is Randy Couture?
Cung is still developing as an MMA fighter however with another year of training and a few more perfomances like last night's I can see a mega-event versus Anderson Silva on the horizon.
Sweet Pea
03-30-2008, 04:21 PM
Le's standup is, and always has been, overrated. His hands anyway, his kicks are good, and his takedowns in San Shou were phenomenal, which is why he's been able to hold his own in terms of takedown defense, etc in MMA so far. He'd get handled by Silva on the feet.
He's a good fighter though, I just want to see him against a good ground fighter, or a really good striker.
Beebs
03-30-2008, 04:24 PM
Last night was hardly evidence of him being a top middleweight, 3 slow paced rounds of striking, 2 half hearted takedown attempts, got hurt, and then the fight ends on a weird injury.
We didn't learn anything new about him last night, sadly.
We know he's got fast hands and some amazing but bizarre kicks. We know he lacks any kind of instant knockout power, but his blows add up over time to some considerable damage. His takedown defense might be okay, but it's never really been tested. We know absolutely nothing about his groundgame.
Until we see a fighter face him who avoids the gameplan of, "I'm going to beat him standing!", we're not going to know anything we already don't.
Yeah Frank is old. He is 35......er....uh....hmm....Cung Le is 35. I guess he is old too. By the way how old is Chuck Liddell? How old is Randy Couture?
Cung is still developing as an MMA fighter however with another year of training and a few more perfomances like last night's I can see a mega-event versus Anderson Silva on the horizon.you a fool if you only take age into consideation. you don't think two people of the same age can have bodies that are miles apart as far as wear and tear? many fighters can't even last into their 30's then you get guys like BHOP and Randy well into their 40's. how long has Frank been fighting in MMA?
boxingcar
03-30-2008, 05:30 PM
What are your objective thoughts about him now as an MMA fighter? He caught a lot of flak coming from the world of San Shou, and for fighting bums in this first few fights in MMA. He obviously has some skills and was underated by many. And, of course the tendency now after yesterday may be to overate him.
So what are your balanced opinions, all things equal?
I think it's interesting to see a san shou / type of fighter...they're extremely rare. From what i've seen , i'd say that he's skilled but i'm not super impressed either. But yeah , he's got some skills...But what differenciates him from most fighters is that he's very endurant too.
rydersonthestorm
03-30-2008, 06:04 PM
Silva would ko him within a round.
swedeone
03-30-2008, 07:47 PM
Silva would ko him within a round.
I'll bet my house against yours on that one. NO WAY in hell he get's taken out in 1 round. :lol:
rydersonthestorm
03-30-2008, 08:05 PM
I'll bet my house against yours on that one. NO WAY in hell he get's taken out in 1 round. :lol:
Why he got rocked by shamrock and has fought 0 good to high level fighters.
audio101
03-30-2008, 10:58 PM
Last night was hardly evidence of him being a top middleweight, 3 slow paced rounds of striking, 2 half hearted takedown attempts, got hurt, and then the fight ends on a weird injury.
A broken arm is a weird injury?:huh
codeman99998
03-31-2008, 03:46 AM
Yeah Frank is old. He is 35......er....uh....hmm....Cung Le is 35. I guess he is old too. By the way how old is Chuck Liddell? How old is Randy Couture?
Cung is still developing as an MMA fighter however with another year of training and a few more perfomances like last night's I can see a mega-event versus Anderson Silva on the horizon.
I don't know, I think it is pretty clear that Le will probably never be good enough to last more than one round with Anderson Silva...
Last night was hardly evidence of him being a top middleweight, 3 slow paced rounds of striking, 2 half hearted takedown attempts, got hurt, and then the fight ends on a weird injury.
I'm with you on this. Beating Frank Shamrock at standup, when your thing is standup is not a huge deal if your name is Kung Le. Come on now, world class striker versus a guy who is more known as a game grappler who is slippery and has a ton of endurance..
Looks like Kung Le is very vulnerable to being punched in the face.. All those kicks, many of them translate to takedown opportunities.. Kicks should be reserved for the legs, or at very opportune times, and not used as the staple of an offense for an MMA fighter. Crocop gets away with it because he only needs to land one, and can back it up with punching power, mix it up with devastating liver kicks since he is a southpaw..
Keep watching him, if he can handle a quality grappler, then yeah. Lets see him up against some big names.
charlievint
03-31-2008, 11:32 AM
What are your objective thoughts about him now as an MMA fighter? He caught a lot of flak coming from the world of San Shou, and for fighting bums in this first few fights in MMA. He obviously has some skills and was underated by many. And, of course the tendency now after yesterday may be to overate him.
So what are your balanced opinions, all things equal?
Cung Le is extremley talented and very athletic. He was able to control Frank which is fucking amazing....I honestly thought Frank would dominate by round 2 but Cung's Kicks were too much for Frank to get anything going.
I think the Variety, speed and power were all underestimated by Frank. Hade Frank been able to get Cung to the ground the fight would have been different but Kudos to Cung he was able to avoid the Take down attempts from Frank.
By the time Frank wanted to switch up his game plan I think His wrist was already on the brinks from blocking too many of those high round house kicks. Cung deserves all the Respect for beating a guy who is a legend in MMA. FRank may be old but he still whoops everyone's ass at 185. Aside from Cung of course....:yep
I'm going with Frank in the rematch though....if it occurs.
charlievint
03-31-2008, 11:37 AM
Why he got rocked by shamrock and has fought 0 good to high level fighters.
B/c Frank has power and Cung showed a good Chin and he has faught 1 ELITE level MMA fighter in Frank. Grant it....it wasn't a well versed MMA fight...it was mostly a Kickboxing/Boxing match and the better striker in Cung proved his hands and feet are superior. Silva is a striker like Cung so the match up is VERY interesting. I'm leaning towards Silva but I can see Cung beating Silva as well. To me it's more of a toss up between the two deadly strikers.
codeman99998
03-31-2008, 01:27 PM
B/c Frank has power and Cung showed a good Chin and he has faught 1 ELITE level MMA fighter in Frank. Grant it....it wasn't a well versed MMA fight...it was mostly a Kickboxing/Boxing match and the better striker in Cung proved his hands and feet are superior. Silva is a striker like Cung so the match up is VERY interesting. I'm leaning towards Silva but I can see Cung beating Silva as well. To me it's more of a toss up between the two deadly strikers.
I don't see that at all. Cung has a pretty good chin sure, but he clearly does NOT have the chin to be able to take strikes from Anderson Silva. Frank Shamrock has a pretty solid right hand, but he is not the striker Silva is. I believe Silva not only has a better ground game than Cung, but he is also the stronger, faster, more technically dominant striker.
If Cung can get some real KO power behind his strikes he might stand a chance.
charlievint
03-31-2008, 01:51 PM
I don't see that at all. Cung has a pretty good chin sure, but he clearly does NOT have the chin to be able to take strikes from Anderson Silva. Frank Shamrock has a pretty solid right hand, but he is not the striker Silva is. I believe Silva not only has a better ground game than Cung, but he is also the stronger, faster, more technically dominant striker.
If Cung can get some real KO power behind his strikes he might stand a chance.
Cung has KO power beleive that...All you have to do is check his record in MMA and in K-1. Silvia is a great striker no doubt but to say Cung is not is playing yourself. The fight between the two would be a competitive bout for as long as it lasted but I don't see Sivia being that much better than Le or vise versa. Both men are Elite level strikers....I think the only thing Silvia has over Cung in terms of striking would be his elbows.
errsta
03-31-2008, 02:53 PM
Cung has KO power beleive that...All you have to do is check his record in MMA and in K-1. Silvia is a great striker no doubt but to say Cung is not is playing yourself. The fight between the two would be a competitive bout for as long as it lasted but I don't see Sivia being that much better than Le or vise versa. Both men are Elite level strikers....I think the only thing Silvia has over Cung in terms of striking would be his elbows.
Getting close enough for to land those elbows is going to be a bitch.
I don't count Cung out against anyone.
charlievint
03-31-2008, 03:08 PM
Getting close enough for to land those elbows is going to be a bitch.
I don't count Cung out against anyone.
I don't either....although...Frank didn't try very hard to get Cung on the ground....alot has to do with Cungs very diverse and very intelligent offense.......and alot has to do with Franks pride and wanting to "PROVE" he could beat Cung at his own game.
There is little doubt who is better on the ground just as there is little doubt who is the better striker.....Anderson is a great striker as well and the elbows would be hard to land on Cung given how well Le can control range, but this fight is a toss up.
rydersonthestorm
03-31-2008, 03:48 PM
Anderson silva's koed hendo and other tough fighters so he ha legit ko power, cung le has koed nobody of note. Also frank shamrock is not an eltie middleweight he is not top ten, i like cung le but until he fights some better guys and gets the same result i am not jumping on the bandwagon.
In regards ti silva he is also excellent on the ground, something which cung is not.
charlievint
03-31-2008, 04:53 PM
Anderson silva's koed hendo and other tough fighters so he ha legit ko power, cung le has koed nobody of note. Also frank shamrock is not an eltie middleweight he is not top ten, i like cung le but until he fights some better guys and gets the same result i am not jumping on the bandwagon.
In regards ti silva he is also excellent on the ground, something which cung is not.
What!!! Look...in MMA Cung is still new...his only real meaningful KO was against Frank but it's only his 6th fight in MMA...Given that in only his 6th MMA fight he KO'd one of the best Mix Martial Artists in the world that is fucking amazing.
But you forget Cung had a long K-1 career or kick boxing career where they used 8-10 ounce gloves! Cung was KOing most his opponents. Soild fighters like Ben Harris, Minaro Tauro, Dan Garett,Mike Altman,Jeff Thornhill......He even dominated Shonnie Carter and had him Rocked on a couple of occassions.
To say Frank is not an ELITE MW is ridicoulous! There are no other people close to frank at MW besides guys like Hendo and Silva. Frank has always been an ELITE MMA fighter when he is active. You don't have to be sold on Cung to respect his accomplishments in his young MMA career....Dominating Frank shamrock isn't something that happens often and has never happened until this past weekend.
Cung isn't great on the ground which I agree but he is an ELITE striker.
Sweet Pea
03-31-2008, 05:08 PM
Cung's standup is overrated. His hands are really sub-par. His kicks are good, but without the use of his patented scissor kicks and throws(that likely wouldn't be as effective against top notch grapplers) that made him so great in San Shou, his standup game is reduced to unorthodox kicks and punch-kick combos. He'll get beaten by any good grappler with a gameplan, or any top notch striker. Anderson would destroy him.
charlievint
03-31-2008, 07:02 PM
Cung's standup is overrated. His hands are really sub-par. His kicks are good, but without the use of his patented scissor kicks and throws(that likely wouldn't be as effective against top notch grapplers) that made him so great in San Shou, his standup game is reduced to unorthodox kicks and punch-kick combos. He'll get beaten by any good grappler with a gameplan, or any top notch striker. Anderson would destroy him.
Cung was pretty damn effective against Frank who is a Top Rated Grappler. the Scissor kicks won't do much in MMA. Cung used the Scissor kicks in K-1 b/c it was a flashy was to score points and he was damn good at it.
Cung's stand up can't be overrated b/c no one really rates him....welll at least they didnt until Saturday. But his Stand up is legit! If it casued problems for Frank it will cause problems for anyone at this elite level.
Cung has a chance at anyone who is at the top due to his accurate and powerful strikes. His hands are decent...nothing great but then again...in MMA no ones hands are great...not even Silva. But kicks.....Cung and Anderson are in a class by themselves at MW.
rydersonthestorm
04-01-2008, 03:11 AM
Frank wasn't top rated and isn't elite, he was 5-10 years ago though. His lat big win was against tito in 1999, and he has only had 6 fights since the year 2000. Cung lee isn't that new to mma he has been around for a about 2 years.
codeman99998
04-01-2008, 04:21 AM
Whatever. Sure he beat Frank Shamrock by a Technical Knock Out when Frank couldn't answer the bell due to an injury. Admittedly, the injury was caused by repeated kicks to Frank's forearms but let's not compare that KO to Anderson Silva's brutal lightning fast knockouts.
Anderson Silva puts people to sleep in devastating fashion and Cung made a guy quit on his stool because he kicked his arms for three rounds.
It is almost impossible for me to imagine a middleweight making it into the third round with Silva (it's been so long since I've seen it, after all). He can really hurt almost any opponent very very badly with knees, elbows, punches or kicks. All it takes is ONE blow from Anderson and you could be on queer street, and as mentioned it could be one blow from any of his very very numerous weapons.
Cung Le is good but Anderson Silva is MMA superman. I don't see the fight even being competitive.
charlievint
04-01-2008, 12:47 PM
Frank wasn't top rated and isn't elite, he was 5-10 years ago though. His lat big win was against tito in 1999, and he has only had 6 fights since the year 2000. Cung lee isn't that new to mma he has been around for a about 2 years.
That's relatively new in MMA standards and 6 fights in 2 years isn't a lot to say he has "seniority" nor high level experience.
Frank is always Top Rated in his repsective division bc he hasn't ever lost convincingly. Frank has been inactive but the last person to beat was a decade ago!
charlievint
04-01-2008, 12:54 PM
Whatever. Sure he beat Frank Shamrock by a Technical Knock Out when Frank couldn't answer the bell due to an injury. Admittedly, the injury was caused by repeated kicks to Frank's forearms but let's not compare that KO to Anderson Silva's brutal lightning fast knockouts.
Anderson Silva puts people to sleep in devastating fashion and Cung made a guy quit on his stool because he kicked his arms for three rounds.
It is almost impossible for me to imagine a middleweight making it into the third round with Silva (it's been so long since I've seen it, after all). He can really hurt almost any opponent very very badly with knees, elbows, punches or kicks. All it takes is ONE blow from Anderson and you could be on queer street, and as mentioned it could be one blow from any of his very very numerous weapons.
Cung Le is good but Anderson Silva is MMA superman. I don't see the fight even being competitive.
No one is comparing a straight KO to a TKO. I'm only stating that to break someone's arm with a kick doesn't mean you kick like a toddler. That means you got power.
There have been one punch and one Kick KO's from Cung just as there have been for Silva. Both men have this ability. My point is only that for some of you it's very easy to write Cung off b/c you don't know his ability. Cung has just as good of strikes as does Silva.
Tuffnutz
04-01-2008, 01:21 PM
Frank fought the same dumb fight Fryklund fought.
Fryklund fought the same dumb fight against Ludwig and Ludwig beat the shit out of Fryklund far worse than Le did.
I'm not sold on Le.
So far he's been one dimensional against guys who've allowed him to be one dimensional.
I need to see what he's like against a well round world class fighter who is'nt into matcho BS like Fryklund and Frank were.
rydersonthestorm
04-01-2008, 06:24 PM
That's relatively new in MMA standards and 6 fights in 2 years isn't a lot to say he has "seniority" nor high level experience.
Frank is always Top Rated in his repsective division bc he hasn't ever lost convincingly. Frank has been inactive but the last person to beat was a decade ago!
So he didn;t get his ass kicked by renzo and that cheat to try and win and get dq'ed.:huh
charlievint
04-02-2008, 12:58 PM
So he didn;t get his ass kicked by renzo and that cheat to try and win and get dq'ed.:huh
Ooooh hell no! Renzo was getting dominated... Even with the positon (Top) that he had Renzo wasn't able to do anythig while Frank was scoring points and breaking down Renzo's ribs. Of course Frank is a dick and got DQ'd by scoring the back of Renzo's head or neck, but it was very clear who was getting the better of who.
sugarngold
04-02-2008, 06:29 PM
Renzo was handling Frank Shamrock during their fight. If the ref hadn;t separated them in the first round - just as Renzo transitioned into knee-on-belly position - Frank was about to take some punishment and possibly get worked into a submission. As it is - Shamrock got himself DQ'ed - but I thought Renzo was going to take him.
This in no way diminishes Cung Le's accomplishment. A quick review of the almost universal dismisal of Le prior to the Shamrock fight should remind us of the momentousness of this victory. This was no tainted DQ victory. Cung Le left Frank Shamrock laying in a broken and bloody heap prior to round four. That's a fact.
A Renzo Gracie vs Cung Le match would be very interesting. If Renzo could get Cung to the ground - he would eat him up. But if he can't get past Cung's wrestling defense - then he would get picked to pieces by the San Shou master.
There are no more questions about Cung Le after the SHamrock fight. Anyone saying otherwise is just making excuses. Frank Shamrock brought out the best in Cung Le and he was only going to get better as the fight progressed. How would Cung Le handle himself on the ground? He will try to get back to his feet ala Chuck Liddell. On his feet - he picks apart anyone in his weight category and that includes Anderson Silva. What else do you need to know?
Matches I want to see Cung Le in:
Renzo Gracie, Frank Shamrock rematch, Anderson Silva, Matt Hughes, Matt Serra, GSP, BJ Penn, and Dan Henderson.
What great fights are out there to be made. The grand daddy of these match ups is Le vs Silva. That would be a sight to behold as the two most versatile strikers in MMA mixed it up.
codeman99998
04-02-2008, 08:21 PM
On his feet - he picks apart anyone in his weight category and that includes Anderson Silva. What else do you need to know?
:lol:
charlievint
04-04-2008, 03:20 PM
I saw the 1st round of Frank and Renzo as Frank doing more damage while Renzo controlled the postion of the fight. He had frank on the ground most of the time but wasn't doing ANYTHING. Frank was constantly landing blows to Renzo on the ground. Renzo didn't land anything of note, he had one opportunity for a Knee bar which wasn't a strong possiblity..Frank would have gotten out of it.
Sweet Pea
04-04-2008, 04:48 PM
On his feet - he picks apart anyone in his weight category and that includes Anderson Silva. What else do you need to know?:rofl Yes, with his awesome arsenal of side kicks.
amhlilhaus
04-05-2008, 11:49 PM
hard to really judge last nights fight. shamrock is old and fought a stupid fight IMO. not trying to take anything away from Cung, but it really leaves some unanswered questions. it was a great night for him though.
shamrock, a non striker tried to beat a striker, and failed miserably.
le will answer the questions when he's taken down several times and has to defend on the ground in a lengthy fight.
sugarngold
04-05-2008, 11:58 PM
:rofl Yes, with his awesome arsenal of side kicks.
Don't forget the array of spin kicks, hook kicks, spinning backfists, suplexes, throws and the dreaded scissor kick takedown! :bbb:scaredas::admin:yikes
I'm surprised that a Sweat Pea Whitaker fan such as yourself doesn't have at the very least a slight admiration for the finesse shown by the southpaw, quick hitting, slick kick-boxing Cung Le.
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