What if Tyson had kept his corner complete for his entire career?

[la-califa]

How much different would have Tyson's legacy in boxing would have been? Up there with Ali & Louis?

[SuzieQ49]

1990: He beats Buster Douglas by Kayo

1990: He knocks out Evander Holyfield in 4-5 rounds

1991: Knocks out Razor Ruddock

1991: Knocks out Henry Tillman

1991: Outpoints Ray Mercer


1992: Knocks out Riddick Bowe

Knocks out Lennox Lewis

Outpoints George Foreman 12 rounds to Zero

1994 Knocks out Michael Mooorer
Knocks Out Tommy Morrison
Outpoints former sparring partner Oliver Mccall


1995-98 Continues to win but less and less fights.......Finally Lennox upsets Tyson who retires soon after at young age of 32.

[SuzieQ49]

tyson Legacy is already up there. 8 of his 9 title defenses were against top rated contenders, the other against a young promising prospect. He dominated his title reign And title opponents like no other champion, avoided no one, UNIFIED ALL THREE BELTS IN JUST ONE YEAR.

[Dempsey1238]

Tyson would be unbeating today with a 100000 wins and 0 losses. Today at 45 or so, he would be knocking out the likes of Wlad and Kilt.

[OBCboxer]

He would have gone undefeated and probably would have retired at the age of 40 or so after knocking out both Klit bros. My reasoning for this is because he was an athletic specimen, who could outlast the wear and tear.

[Dempsey1238]

Belive me, there would be no Lewis "Era".

Tyson would rein from 86 or 88, depends if you go by lineal or not, and still be the unbeating unify champ today.

[TBooze]

1991: Knocks out Henry Tillman



No way a 1991 Henry Tillman fights for the title against an unbeaten Tyson. No one would sanction such a mismatch.

I do find these debates interesting. With many people not ever factoring in that Tyson had hit the self-destruct button, and that having a Rooney rather than Bright in his corner would of only at best delayed the eventual car crash that was Tyson.

[Russell]

Don't know if any corner could replace what Cus did being in his life.

[TBooze]

Don't know if any corner could replace what Cus did being in his life.

Cus was a double edged sword though. Tyson's condition I suspect meant fame was perhaps the last thing he needed. Tyson needed control and discipline, boxing gave him that, but because he was so good, it led to his downfall.

Cus knew this I suspect and IMO was perhaps too interested in making another champ than recognizing the real needs of his adopted son.

[Russell]

Even indirectly he helped a massive deal. I doubt Tyson realize "Wow, this guys isn't there 100% for me".

He just knew he had a father of some sort.

[round15]

If Cus had lived and worked Tyson's corner for his entire career, I think he would have easily challenged Marciano's undefeated mark. Cus would have also made sure Tyson had no contact with Robin Givens or Desiree Washington.

Definitely Tyson vs Holyfield, Tyson vs Bowe, and Tyson vs Lewis would have happened earlier. Ruddock vs Tyson would have probably happened much earlier as well.

No doubt, Tyson would have a legitimate argument for being the greatest heavyweight of all time rounding out the top five with Jack Johnson, Ali, Joe Louis and Marciano. The fact that he's still debated as potentially the best heavyweight of all time speaks wonders about his career.

[Russell]

He was already 37-0 in his early 20's, it would of definitely been possible.

[la-califa]

Cus was a double edged sword though. Tyson's condition I suspect meant fame was perhaps the last thing he needed. Tyson needed control and discipline, boxing gave him that, but because he was so good, it led to his downfall.

Cus knew this I suspect and IMO was perhaps too interested in making another champ than recognizing the real needs of his adopted son. Teddy Atlas & Kevin Rooney provided intense training for Tyson to keep him in top shape. Also Jimmy Jacobs & Bill Cayton helped to try & keep Tyson focused on boxing. In addition to Cus. In all Tyson had a great supporting staff for any Champion to benifit from.

[Stonehands89]

Cus died. Jim Jacobs died. This was before 1990. Tyson's connection was stronger with both of those than he was with what remained. Rooney understood him and was a perfect trainer this side of Cus for him but Cayton was distant. Unless Rooney was ready to be with him 24/7, Tyson would be acting out like the adolescent he was when unsupervised. So there is no guarantee that he would be as stable as he was when he was living with the old man. Tyson was a lost soul pre-Cus and post-Cus.

Without Cus he was fatherless and ....bored. He needed alot of support (read: adult supervision and structure). Would Cayton and Rooney be enough? Who knows.

Let's say they were.

Tyson would have looked better in Bruno I. He needed Rooney to avoid the inevitable slide into ring brutishness just like he needed Cus to avoid taking up the inevitable mantle of the brute in life. You can see Tyson almost immediately slip a just a little in performance the first time that Rooney wasn't there. Of course, he was wrapping his car around a tree and smacking Robin "I'm going to Hell" Givens in the face and tearing his life apart in no time, too.

Tyson would have looked better in every subsequent fight, although I really don't know if Douglas wouldn't have beaten him anyway. If the fight took place in Tokyo as it did, then I see Tyson taking a lopsided -and unjust decision. Someone spiked the judges tea with methamphetamine, that much is clear if you remember the scores! Had it been held in America, then I don't discount Buster taken a just decision. Buster was firing on all cylinders that night and would be a tough man to beat for anyone.

By the way, I see his people realizing that they have to fight him often in his twenties because of his time-sensitive style...

In any event, Tyson would not have beaten Holyfield in 1991. Holyfield had his number. He knew his style, how to cope with it, had the tools to cope with it, and more importantly, Evander understood the fragile psychology under the armor... and he'd dent enough of it to expose that fragility underneath. I am utterly convinced and have been since the Dokes fight that Holyfield beats Tyson 5 out of 5 times.

[Only registered and activated users can see links] the antidote.

I do, however, believe that Tyson would have beaten Lewis had they met earlier. Although I don't believe that Tyson would have beaten Bowe.

The Tyson record would have been along the lines of 46-0 or 45-1 had he fought at the rate of 4x per year as he did when he got the belts before meeting Holyfield in 1991. He'd be breathing down Marciano's neck alright but I have the feeling that Peter Marciano would be relatively okay because Mike loved the Rock and would pay his respects probably in Brockton when he started getting close to the record and the press started clamoring about it.

However, I'm not so sure that he'd surpass it unless his management moved him even more quickly, like they were in 86 when he had like 12 fights and chose the opponents carefully. I think that Holyfield would not be recognized as the danger he was to Tyson's style and he'd change that 0 to a 1.

And by the time Tyson was about 28, he would begin to decelerate quickly. Worse yet, he was not the kind of fighter who had the physical advantages to to adapt -Short HWs do not have that luxury. He had to get inside and hurt the big and the powerful and once his speed, flexibility, and output diminished, Tyson was going to become vulnerable to larger HWs. So the young ones out here should diffuse their Tyson fantasies with heavy reality.

His record at 28, before the losses started to become regular would be about 55-5 with losses to Holyfield (two more times), Bowe, and Foreman (-neither of whom he'd choose to rematch). After that point, he'd lose every time to a bigger, better, stronger Lewis... but not before Lewis become more powerful and Tyson started to devolve. Then he'd start getting tired of training and that would be that... he'd be a glorified opponent by about 30 or so.

[janitor]

How much different would have Tyson's legacy in boxing would have been? Up there with Ali & Louis?

I think it would only have delayed the inevitable.

Tyson had a head start on both Louis and Ali going into the second Douglas fight. It is in the nature of champions to loose focus after they win the title and what set Louis and Ali apart from the rest as much as their ability was that they retained that hunger.

Tyson would have unraveled sooner rather than later and no corner in the world could have prevented it. His handelers would have been performing a conjouring trick to hold things together and it wouldnt have worked for ever.

[McGrain]

Tyson would be unbeating today with a 100000 wins and 0 losses. Today at 45 or so, he would be knocking out the likes of Wlad and Kilt.

:lol:

He would have been beaten by either Douglas or Hollyfield. The man had demons. The corner obsession is almost meaningless and I have never understood it.

[McGrain]

Cus was a double edged sword though.

Cus was not good for Tyson in my view.

And it would have ended in tears had the great man lived.

[McGrain]

[Only registered and activated users can see links] the antidote.

That's a generally good post ST.

[Stonehands89]

That's a generally good post ST.
Generally?!

[McGrain]

:lol:

[Dempsey1238]

Are you guys joking?? Tyson would have ko Holyfiled in round 1 had Rooney been there. Follow by more first round kos over the likes of Bowe, Lewis, Foreman, Wlad, and VK.

[Stonehands89]

Serious question Dempsey: How old are you?

[Stonehands89]

:lol:
"...a GENERALLY good post"...

Why don't you go get yourself inebriated so you can appreciate good work! Hell, get inebriated and then have 6 more and before you end up on the floor perhaps you'll STEAL MY POST AGAIN!!

[Haha! M, That still cracks me up.]

[McGrain]

I wasn't really stealing it...those thoughts were all inside my head...in a way YOU stole MY post.

[Stonehands89]

Dempsey, I see that you are 26. I re-read your posts on this thread and admit that I'm a little confused. I don't know if you are serious or not. I'm guessing that you are being facetious...

[Stonehands89]

I wasn't really stealing it...those thoughts were all inside my head...in a way YOU stole MY post.
Yah know, I have fun tormenting guys with no credibility; but when I first read that post that you STOLE in your drunken daze, I honestly doubted my own senses. That's because you have credibility. And just now I had an urge to apologize to you for "reading your mind".

[Sorry, man.]

[McGrain]

And just now I had an urge to apologize to you for "reading your mind".

:lol:

[la-califa]

I really don't see Holyfield having a chance against the Tyson which faced Spinks. The one punch at a time Tyson which faced Holyfield was a whole different fighter. Could Holyfield have handled the speed, combinations, & power which Tyson had at that time?

[Stonehands89]

I really don't see Holyfield having a chance against the Tyson which faced Spinks. The one punch at a time Tyson which faced Holyfield was a whole different fighter. Could Holyfield have handled the speed, combinations, & power which Tyson had at that time?
The short answer is yes.

Remember that Holyfield completely handled Tyson in both fights. Tyson figured this out early, before he started getting tired and hurt.

[McGrain]

I really don't see Holyfield having a chance against the Tyson which faced Spinks. The one punch at a time Tyson which faced Holyfield was a whole different fighter. Could Holyfield have handled the speed, combinations, & power which Tyson had at that time?

Well I think Hollyfield could have, yes. But regardless, Tyson was NOT the same fighter by the time he fought Hollyfield for a variety of reasons, not all of them related to his corner. Was it the new corner that caused him to beleive that one punch was all he needed to land in order to win fights? No, he was falling prey to the invincibility disease that affected punchers like Liston and Baer before him. Was it his corner that spared him the mental turmoil of that tortuos divorce?

Tyson, because of his mental make up was always headed for a meltdown. He was always waiting to be exposed by someone who could punch, had a good jaw, was not afraid and was expert at breaking rythym.

EVERY time, WITHOUT exceptiont that Mike has been asked to dig deep and find the extra that makes Louis and Ali 1 and 2 he failed to find it. That's a flaw as crucial as a sloppy jab and it's NOT going to be rectified by a cornerman.

[mcvey]

How much different would have Tyson's legacy in boxing would have been? Up there with Ali & Louis?
It wasnt just his corner ,he was allways a shit waiting to hit the fan,Mickey Duff the English promoter and manager was very friendly with Jim Jacobs ,used to stay at his apartment when in the States ,he said they were buying girls off ,very early in Tysons career ,he was a hand grenade with the pin out ,sooner or later the explosion was coming.

[Vanboxingfan]

This idea that Tyson would be some superhuman fighting machine had his corner stuck together is complete nonsense. We can't even say with any degree of certain that the would have done better than he did. It's certainly likely that he would have, but no guarantees. I think he would have beaten Douglas, not sure about Holyfield, Bowe or Lewis, depending on when they fought it could unfold a number of ways. And would his corner have kept him out of jail? Who knows?

[ripcity]

It is all sepulaction but....
I think he beats Douglas but I don't know for sure. Douglas excuted a perfict game plan that night.
1990 James Buster Douglas ko 8 38-0
1991 Evander Holyfield ko 7 Holyfield is tough and brave but too brave for his own good. 39-0
1991 George Foreman 11-1 y being the first man to go the distance sence 1987 when Tony Tucker managed to do so many people would talk about this as a moral victory for Big George. 40-0
1992 Donovan Ruddock 8-4 For the first time there will be talk of the posibility that Tyson is not invincible. 41-0
1992 Riddick Bowe 7-5 Posible split or majorty decision. 42-0
1993 Lennox Lewis ko 9 Lewis has his momets but Tyson catches up with him. 43-0
1993 Evander Holyfield ko 9 See my commets for their 1991 fight. 44-0
1994 Michael Moorer ko 11 Much will be made about the history between Tyson and Moorer's trainer Teddy Atlias. Morrer will fight well but will get careless. 45-0
1994 Tommy Morrison ko 1 46-0
1995 Riddick Bowe L 8-4 Bowe for a very breif period of time may have been the best heavyweight head to head. 46-1
1995 Lennox Lewis 7-5 Possible split or majorty decision. both are coming off loses Tyson to Bowe and Lewis to Oliver McCall 47-1
1996. Riddick Bowe 8-4 Many boxing fans and experts will find it hard that Bowe was the same guy who beat Tyson a year before 48-1
1996 Mile Tyson 31 years old two time undisputed heavyweight champion of the world with a record of 48-1-0 (39) anouces his retirement.
1996-1998 Joins the brodcast team for HBO or Showtime.
1998 David Tua ko 9 By now Lennox Lewis who Tyson has beten twice is the doment heaveyweight and their is a lot of talk about Ike Ibeabuchi He fights Tua who is coming off a loss to Ike Ibeabuchi to shake off some rust. 49-1
1999 Ike Ibeabuchi ko 11. Tyson stops Ibeabuchi in a great fight. 50-1
1999 Michael Grant ko 4. After disposeing of Tua and Ibeabuchi Tyson takes on another hot prospect Michael Grant who at 6′ 7″ and coming off a win aganst Lou Savarese. 51-1
2000. Lennox Lewis L 10-2 Lewis easily puts an end to Mike Tyson's hopes of becoming a three time heavyweight champion of the world. 51-2
2000 Mike Tyson 35 years old two time undisputed heavyweight champion of the world retires from boxing (again) with a record of 51-2-0 (42).
With a better team around than the one that Don King provided for him he will be no Saint but he will have stayed out of major trubble. He would also be in a much better finchial postion than he is now. Except as a comatator or possible trainer he will not have gotten into a boxing ring sence his loss to Lennox Lewis in 2000.

[Sonny's jab]

If Tyson had stayed with Kevin Rooney I think by now he would have made 150 or more successful title defences, with at least 50 championship 1st round KOs.

He'd still be champion now, obviously, and it would probably be a very boring situation. There would be more interest in "minor titles" and non-title fights at heavyweight, because every fighter would be a foregone conclusion to get KO'd.

Tyson fights would not draw great numbers after the late 90s, because we would have seen it all by then, but his back catalogue of KOs would basically amount to everything important in boxing history, especially when he began taking on several contenders on the same night, and then - at his absolute peak c. 1993-99 - several men at the same time.
New techniques, new punches, new levels of athleticism, new freakish feats, the re-definition of boxing ability, the complete re-writing of the boxing textbook, would have occured if the Tyson and Rooney team had stayed together.

No one would talk about Ali, Louis, the Sugar Rays, not in the same breath as Tyson. The men we know todau as "great fighters" would not be considered such had Tyson stayed with Rooney, there would only be one GREAT fighter - Mike Tyson. The others would be just "good fighters", "former champions".

Tyson's peak in the 1990s would have been the pinnacle of boxing history, but it also would have featured some lowpoints, like he probably would have killed three consecutive challengers in 1994, and almost cause boxing's permanent extinction.

He'd be made to wear special gloves to slow down his phenomenal speed and lessen his power. A contender would need to undergo tests to prove they have a 20+ inch neck, alomg with a record of never being stopped, and a abnormal skull thickness and high levels of skeletal and muscle mass, before being allowed to fight Tyson. Steroids tests would be waivered for his opponents, some state commisions and sanctioning bodies would actually make a course of HGH and testosterone compulsory for anyone wishing to fight Tyson.

Between 1988 and '93 we would have seen young Tyson improve dramatically with every fight. Guys like Holyfield, Bowe, Mercer, Lewis would have gone out in matter of seconds, perhaps tragically killed. Tyson's power would have reached frightening levels, and his head-movement would be tested in the gym against speeding live bullets (perhaps Teddy Atlas would have been brought back on board for this).

From '93 to '99 it would be surreal, even though we all know Tyson would be pulling his punches and playing, he'd still have the appearance of the deadliest creature that ever lived.

A new field of science called Tysonology would emerge during the 90s, a study of the anatomical, biological, ballistics and physics surrounding the phenomenon known as "Tyson" Scientists would struggle to grasp and explain Tyson using generally accepted science. The religious people would stand in awe of the blinding light of his punches. Civilization itself would tremble in fear of Tyson's power unleashed.

..... if only he had stayed with Rooney.

[joe33]

He still may have gone to prison though,his corner where not out on the town with him all the time,he had that madness about him that sadly cost him his best years of his career

[Sonny's jab]

No prison would have been able to hold the Rooney-trained Tyson.

He'd be far too fast to get caught, and too strong to be contained behind mere walls and bars.

[Bummy Davis]

I think Cus, Jacobs and Rooney were the best team that Tyson had, at least they were boxing people unlike Rory Holoway. Cus gave Mike the mental strength he needed and Cus was good at the mind games. I think Jacobs was the next closest to Tyson but Cus was the Key and Kevin a reminder but Cus did not care about money, he wanted the best Tyson, Years after Cus;s death Mikes wife found an account with 250,000 in it, they couldn't figure out where it came from but then found out it was Cus saving money for Mike. That kind of love you can not replace. Tyson may have had trouble with Douglas and Holtfield but with Cus in his corner he would have been better prepared to win and would have had some answers to his problems. He would have had a better chance to be and stay as the best MIKE TYSON he could be and unfortunatly that is not what he became

[Russell]

If Tyson had stayed with Kevin Rooney I think by now he would have made 150 or more successful title defences, with at least 50 championship 1st round KOs.

He'd still be champion now, obviously, and it would probably be a very boring situation. There would be more interest in "minor titles" and non-title fights at heavyweight, because every fighter would be a foregone conclusion to get KO'd.

Tyson fights would not draw great numbers after the late 90s, because we would have seen it all by then, but his back catalogue of KOs would basically amount to everything important in boxing history, especially when he began taking on several contenders on the same night, and then - at his absolute peak c. 1993-99 - several men at the same time.
New techniques, new punches, new levels of athleticism, new freakish feats, the re-definition of boxing ability, the complete re-writing of the boxing textbook, would have occured if the Tyson and Rooney team had stayed together.

No one would talk about Ali, Louis, the Sugar Rays, not in the same breath as Tyson. The men we know todau as "great fighters" would not be considered such had Tyson stayed with Rooney, there would only be one GREAT fighter - Mike Tyson. The others would be just "good fighters", "former champions".

Tyson's peak in the 1990s would have been the pinnacle of boxing history, but it also would have featured some lowpoints, like he probably would have killed three consecutive challengers in 1994, and almost cause boxing's permanent extinction.

He'd be made to wear special gloves to slow down his phenomenal speed and lessen his power. A contender would need to undergo tests to prove they have a 20+ inch neck, alomg with a record of never being stopped, and a abnormal skull thickness and high levels of skeletal and muscle mass, before being allowed to fight Tyson. Steroids tests would be waivered for his opponents, some state commisions and sanctioning bodies would actually make a course of HGH and testosterone compulsory for anyone wishing to fight Tyson.

Between 1988 and '93 we would have seen young Tyson improve dramatically with every fight. Guys like Holyfield, Bowe, Mercer, Lewis would have gone out in matter of seconds, perhaps tragically killed. Tyson's power would have reached frightening levels, and his head-movement would be tested in the gym against speeding live bullets (perhaps Teddy Atlas would have been brought back on board for this).

From '93 to '99 it would be surreal, even though we all know Tyson would be pulling his punches and playing, he'd still have the appearance of the deadliest creature that ever lived.

A new field of science called Tysonology would emerge during the 90s, a study of the anatomical, biological, ballistics and physics surrounding the phenomenon known as "Tyson" Scientists would struggle to grasp and explain Tyson using generally accepted science. The religious people would stand in awe of the blinding light of his punches. Civilization itself would tremble in fear of Tyson's power unleashed.

..... if only he had stayed with Rooney.

Ahahaha, Sonny's Jab is getting disgruntled by this thread.

[Seamus]

I think it would only have delayed the inevitable.


Thank you.

It's depressing that Tyson myopia seeps into these erudite ranks.

Tyson's corner didn't help a whole lot during Douglas, but he still showed every trait that led to his losses, lack of a plan b, a tendency to get single tracked in the pursuit of the KO and be shockingly open for counters ,and the propensity to get discouraged once his bullying proved unfruitful.

I still think Holyfield beats him, Foreman gives him a good tussle, and Bowe takes him outright. Also, a post-McCall Lewis beats him everytime out.

[JohnThomas1]

Are you guys joking?? Tyson would have ko Holyfiled in round 1 had Rooney been there. Follow by more first round kos over the likes of Bowe, Lewis, Foreman, Wlad, and VK.

Hell, he'd still be champ!!!

:D

[JohnThomas1]

Serious question Dempsey: How old are you?

He's kidding

:D

[JohnThomas1]

No prison would have been able to hold the Rooney-trained Tyson.

He'd be far too fast to get caught, and too strong to be contained behind mere walls and bars.

Hahahaha, which leads me to the ultimate question Sonny, the matchup most are only game to whisper in hushed tones

Psssssssssssssst........Mike Tyson vs Chuck Norris


:yikes

[TBooze]

Psssssssssssssst........Mike Tyson vs Chuck Norris


:yikes


Well he could not beat Orlin without drugs....;)

[Stonehands89]

He's kidding

:D
I figured it out... just slowly!

[JohnThomas1]

I figured it out... just slowly!

Hahahaha, better late than never.

[housecat]

1990: He beats Buster Douglas by KO

1990: Evander Holyfield knocks Tyson out in 10

1991: Knocks out Razor Ruddock

Goes to Jail for rape


1995: Riddick Bowe wins on pts

Lennox Lewis Knocks tyson out

Avoids fighting George Foreman , has to pay him off


1996 Tyson knocks out a bum in 2
Knocks out Michael Mooorer

1997 David Tua Knocks Tyson out in 4

1998 Tyson knocks out a bum in 3

1999 Ike Ibeabuchi Knocks tyson out in 9


Tysonn retires

[Conn]

Are you guys joking?? Tyson would have ko Holyfiled in round 1 had Rooney been there. Follow by more first round kos over the likes of Bowe, Lewis, Foreman, Wlad, and VK.


:lol:

Yeah, it might get so they schedule 3 or 4 defences on the same night, so the fans watching get their money's worth.

[Conn]

Thank you.

It's depressing that Tyson myopia seeps into these erudite ranks.

Tyson's corner didn't help a whole lot during Douglas, but he still showed every trait that led to his losses, lack of a plan b, a tendency to get single tracked in the pursuit of the KO and be shockingly open for counters ,and the propensity to get discouraged once his bullying proved unfruitful.

I still think Holyfield beats him, Foreman gives him a good tussle, and Bowe takes him outright. Also, a post-McCall Lewis beats him everytime out.

I'd actually give him his best chance of a KO win against Lewis.

[Foreman Hook]

If Tyson had stayed with Kevin Rooney I think by now he would have made 150 or more successful title defences, with at least 50 championship 1st round KOs.

He'd still be champion now, obviously, and it would probably be a very boring situation. There would be more interest in "minor titles" and non-title fights at heavyweight, because every fighter would be a foregone conclusion to get KO'd.

Tyson fights would not draw great numbers after the late 90s, because we would have seen it all by then, but his back catalogue of KOs would basically amount to everything important in boxing history, especially when he began taking on several contenders on the same night, and then - at his absolute peak c. 1993-99 - several men at the same time.
New techniques, new punches, new levels of athleticism, new freakish feats, the re-definition of boxing ability, the complete re-writing of the boxing textbook, would have occured if the Tyson and Rooney team had stayed together.

No one would talk about Ali, Louis, the Sugar Rays, not in the same breath as Tyson. The men we know todau as "great fighters" would not be considered such had Tyson stayed with Rooney, there would only be one GREAT fighter - Mike Tyson. The others would be just "good fighters", "former champions".

Tyson's peak in the 1990s would have been the pinnacle of boxing history, but it also would have featured some lowpoints, like he probably would have killed three consecutive challengers in 1994, and almost cause boxing's permanent extinction.

He'd be made to wear special gloves to slow down his phenomenal speed and lessen his power. A contender would need to undergo tests to prove they have a 20+ inch neck, alomg with a record of never being stopped, and a abnormal skull thickness and high levels of skeletal and muscle mass, before being allowed to fight Tyson. Steroids tests would be waivered for his opponents, some state commisions and sanctioning bodies would actually make a course of HGH and testosterone compulsory for anyone wishing to fight Tyson.

Between 1988 and '93 we would have seen young Tyson improve dramatically with every fight. Guys like Holyfield, Bowe, Mercer, Lewis would have gone out in matter of seconds, perhaps tragically killed. Tyson's power would have reached frightening levels, and his head-movement would be tested in the gym against speeding live bullets (perhaps Teddy Atlas would have been brought back on board for this).

From '93 to '99 it would be surreal, even though we all know Tyson would be pulling his punches and playing, he'd still have the appearance of the deadliest creature that ever lived.

A new field of science called Tysonology would emerge during the 90s, a study of the anatomical, biological, ballistics and physics surrounding the phenomenon known as "Tyson" Scientists would struggle to grasp and explain Tyson using generally accepted science. The religious people would stand in awe of the blinding light of his punches. Civilization itself would tremble in fear of Tyson's power unleashed.

..... if only he had stayed with Rooney.

:rofl:rofl:rofl:nut:nut:nut:patsch

ARE YOU FOR REAL?!:silly



Foreman Hoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooook!:smoke

[Conn]

If Tyson had stayed with Kevin Rooney I think by now he would have made 150 or more successful title defences, with at least 50 championship 1st round KOs.

He'd still be champion now, obviously, and it would probably be a very boring situation. There would be more interest in "minor titles" and non-title fights at heavyweight, because every fighter would be a foregone conclusion to get KO'd.

Tyson fights would not draw great numbers after the late 90s, because we would have seen it all by then, but his back catalogue of KOs would basically amount to everything important in boxing history, especially when he began taking on several contenders on the same night, and then - at his absolute peak c. 1993-99 - several men at the same time.
New techniques, new punches, new levels of athleticism, new freakish feats, the re-definition of boxing ability, the complete re-writing of the boxing textbook, would have occured if the Tyson and Rooney team had stayed together.

No one would talk about Ali, Louis, the Sugar Rays, not in the same breath as Tyson. The men we know todau as "great fighters" would not be considered such had Tyson stayed with Rooney, there would only be one GREAT fighter - Mike Tyson. The others would be just "good fighters", "former champions".

Tyson's peak in the 1990s would have been the pinnacle of boxing history, but it also would have featured some lowpoints, like he probably would have killed three consecutive challengers in 1994, and almost cause boxing's permanent extinction.

He'd be made to wear special gloves to slow down his phenomenal speed and lessen his power. A contender would need to undergo tests to prove they have a 20+ inch neck, alomg with a record of never being stopped, and a abnormal skull thickness and high levels of skeletal and muscle mass, before being allowed to fight Tyson. Steroids tests would be waivered for his opponents, some state commisions and sanctioning bodies would actually make a course of HGH and testosterone compulsory for anyone wishing to fight Tyson.

Between 1988 and '93 we would have seen young Tyson improve dramatically with every fight. Guys like Holyfield, Bowe, Mercer, Lewis would have gone out in matter of seconds, perhaps tragically killed. Tyson's power would have reached frightening levels, and his head-movement would be tested in the gym against speeding live bullets (perhaps Teddy Atlas would have been brought back on board for this).

From '93 to '99 it would be surreal, even though we all know Tyson would be pulling his punches and playing, he'd still have the appearance of the deadliest creature that ever lived.

A new field of science called Tysonology would emerge during the 90s, a study of the anatomical, biological, ballistics and physics surrounding the phenomenon known as "Tyson" Scientists would struggle to grasp and explain Tyson using generally accepted science. The religious people would stand in awe of the blinding light of his punches. Civilization itself would tremble in fear of Tyson's power unleashed.

..... if only he had stayed with Rooney.


:rofl

[orriray59]

That was an ATG post by Sonny's Jab.

Tysonology. :rofl

[salty trunks]

Noone can say Tyson definitely gets beat by any of his future potential opponents.

The difference was Tyson was a disciplined fighter under Rooney. Rooney being an ex fighter knew the importance of discipline for every opponent because of what would later happen to Tyson against Douglas.

Tyson was looking really good. Undefeated and dominating every opponent. His future opponents weren't even close with the same opposition. Tyson by the Spinks fight was ready for any fighter down the line. Holyfield, Bowe, Lewis, all great fights and Tyson would have been the favorite to beat them all.

[carlosg815]

How much different would have Tyson's legacy in boxing would have been? Up there with Ali & Louis?

Mike Tyson would have never lost to Douglas.

Mike Tyson would have broken Marciano's record, retired undefeated and gone down as the greatest heavyweight that ever lived.

[Guyfawkes]

Mike Tyson would have never lost to Douglas.

Mike Tyson would have broken Marciano's record, retired undefeated and gone down as the greatest heavyweight that ever lived.

Seriously?

[MMJoe]

Tyson would be unbeating today with a 100000 wins and 0 losses. Today at 45 or so, he would be knocking out the likes of Wlad and Kilt.

Unbeating?

[teeto]

wow, I never posted in this?

No excuses, it is what it is.

I was reading 'Facing Tyson' lately though and there's a great chapter on Buster Mathis jr, who knew Tyson well and he spoke a lot about something called 'The Willie', which was a system which the D'amato camp used for punching the bag. Certain shots were coded with numbers, Kevin Rooney would shout out the number sequences and then Tyson would hit the combo on the bag. Mathis jr was watching Tyson fight in the later part of his career and he said he could tell right away that Tyson 'wasn't training with the willie', and had became a head hunter.

[anut]

1990: He beats Buster Douglas by Kayo

1990: He knocks out Evander Holyfield in 4-5 rounds

1991: Knocks out Razor Ruddock

1991: Knocks out Henry Tillman

1991: Outpoints Ray Mercer


1992: Knocks out Riddick Bowe

Knocks out Lennox Lewis

Outpoints George Foreman 12 rounds to Zero

1994 Knocks out Michael Mooorer
Knocks Out Tommy Morrison
Outpoints former sparring partner Oliver Mccall


1995-98 Continues to win but less and less fights.......Finally Lennox upsets Tyson who retires soon after at young age of 32.


why woul dtyson ever fight tillman if he never lost to douglas?????..to avenge his amatuer loss???

[carlosg815]

Seriously?

Yes, that is what I believe.

[anut]

if rooney in corner..............tko douglas in 6 rds.........then tkos holy 9 rds ....then tko donovan ruddock.......then tkos tim witherspoon........tko lennox lewis......but by 1993 tyson is starting to slip.....bowe/tyson in 93????? tyson woulda been 27 yrs of age....and a short fighter peaking from age 20 to 27 as a heavyweight?????...you got to be realistic......lets say tyson does beat bowe in 93.........then hes got mercer in 94 and tyson would be 28 yrs of age.....at that point i think a mercer....or even moorrer(who is chinless)..or even morrison at that point i know it sounds awfull but fighers do get old especially short heavyweights...they peak for 3 yrs at best...

[TAC602]

if rooney in corner..............tko douglas in 6 rds.........then tkos holy 9 rds ....then tko donovan ruddock.......then tkos tim witherspoon........tko lennox lewis......but by 1993 tyson is starting to slip.....bowe/tyson in 93????? tyson woulda been 27 yrs of age....and a short fighter peaking from age 20 to 27 as a heavyweight?????...you got to be realistic......lets say tyson does beat bowe in 93.........then hes got mercer in 94 and tyson would be 28 yrs of age.....at that point i think a mercer....or even moorrer(who is chinless)..or even morrison at that point i know it sounds awfull but fighers do get old especially short heavyweights...they peak for 3 yrs at best...

Pretty spot on as I see it. Although if he does beat Bowe in '93, it warrants a rematch. Which Tyson loses.

[Jayhaych]

:goodwow, I never posted in this?

No excuses, it is what it is.

I was reading 'Facing Tyson' lately though and there's a great chapter on Buster Mathis jr, who knew Tyson well and he spoke a lot about something called 'The Willie', which was a system which the D'amato camp used for punching the bag. Certain shots were coded with numbers, Kevin Rooney would shout out the number sequences and then Tyson would hit the combo on the bag. Mathis jr was watching Tyson fight in the later part of his career and he said he could tell right away that Tyson 'wasn't training with the willie', and had became a head hunter.


Exactly right!

Also I must say this....people that compare thE post prison Tyson That lost to Holy to the pre prison Tyson that was stronger, moved his head, could absorb a shot better and had better handspeed and footspeed are just delusional or Haters.....or just plain stupid.

Surely it's clear that the Tyson who: came out of prison to beat the woeful Mckneely, looked awful in the first 2 rounds against Mathis before his power told, smashed an ageing Bruno in what looked like his best performance in terms of timing and who barely clipped the paper champ seldon wasn't the same man physically as the beast that Destroyed Berbick, Thomas, spinks etc etc.....Pre prison Tyson would've destroyed Post prison Tyson in 4 rds, heck the dimensions of both men visually were different! Post Prison Tyson simply wasn't as solid in his frame as Pre prison Tyson....he also threw a basic jab right hand combination...granted, when he got his opponent hurt with the right hand...he did finish well in some fights...i.e Bruno, Saverese the examples....but he wasn't the same fighter....physically or Mentally.

So the people who say that Holy had his number....well we'll never know but Tyson would've been a stronger fighter than the man who fought Holy in 96 and again in 97(must point out that Tyson was dominating the 3rd round before commiting the foul) His body conditioning i.e ability to absorb blows would've been better and unlike post prison Mike....he would've been fighter and more able to last 12 rounds.....so in saying that, I don't see Holy having Pre prison Tyson's number....he just got a Tyson that spent 3 years not being able to train...not being able to condition his body to take blows and not having the same fitness that he'd had in the late 80's.

As for the Buster Douglas fight....I'm truly of the opinion that if the fight had been staged in the U.S Tyson would've finished the job in less than 8rds......The press would've been all over the greg page knockdown in training and the fact that Tyson was overweight and out of shape as late as 2 weeks before the fight...so Tyson would've been under scrutiny to put more effort into his training...that scrutiny wasn't there in Tokyo...infact most reporters stayed at home not bothering to even cover the fight!

Having said that...Tyson without rooney was a car crash waiting to happen...King, Holloway and the rest were just bad influences on an already mentally damaged Tyson....it's possible that Tyson may have killed someone or even been shot himself had he got through indianapolis, or infact never went there.



Tyson with rooney equals Tyson without King, holloway, and Horne....whether Rooney would've controlled Tyson to the end of his career is debatable...I think the combination of Jacobs dying, the divorce and splitting from Rooney made any potential Tyson meltdown expediated..



1990 Tyson v Douglas.....win 6th rd

1990 Tyson v Holy...win 11th rd

1991 Tyson V Ruddock...win 10th rd

1991 Tyson v Holy win points

1992 Tyson v Lewis win 8th rd

1992 Tyson v Foreman win 10th rd stoppage

1993 Tyson v Holy win points

1993 Tyson v Lewis win 5th rd

1994 Tyson v Bruno win 3rd rd

1994 Tyson V McCall win Points

1994 Tyson v Seldon win 1st rd

1994 Tyson V Akinwande win 9th rd stoppage and equals Marciano's 49 unbeaten fight run...proclaimed as the greatest of all time by the world boxing journo's

1995 Tyson fights a few nondescript fighters to take his record to 51-0-


1995 Accusations of Tyson fathering illegitimate kids does the rounds, along with more groping accusations

America is disgusted and Tyson protests his innocence...rooney splits from Tyson a few months later citing disagreements in the camp.

1996 Tyson signs with don king

1996 Tyson v Bowe L points

1996 Tyson v Mercer W points

1997 Tyson v Bowe 2 L 10th rd stoppage

1998 Tyson jailed for 2years GBH

1999 Tyson v saverese w 2rd

1999 Tyson v Orlin Norris W 5th rd

1999 Tyson v Botha w 7th rd

2000 Tyson V Lewis L 8th rd


Retires



I can definitely see this happening although I expect the haters to accuse me of being a student of "Tysonology" :lol:

[MAG1965]

his corner not being there is not what made Mike great, it was what he learned from Cus Damato and being able to stay disciplined. Mike in his prime was almost unbeatable. Guys could not hit him, and when they missed he would be within range for his devastating punches. When he got older he didn't train as hard and took it all for granted and his defense slipped and then it all changed. If Damato had lived I do think Mike would have stayed on course more, but it doesn't matter if he had Kevin Rooney or Clayton and all that. Mike at his best could beat anyone. Just imagine 1986-1989 for another 5 years.

[TAC602]

I agree Tyson wasnt as solid in his frame post-prison... With the exception of Holyfield II.

[sauhund II]

I agree Tyson wasnt as solid in his frame post-prison... With the exception of Holyfield II.
He was done mentally, I do not agree much with Teddy Atlas but he was right when he proclaimed " the man dont want to fight anymore"

When he broke the staredown with Holy I knew this is going to end bad, and it DID end bad.

[TAC602]

He was done mentally, I do not agree much with Teddy Atlas but he was right when he proclaimed " the man dont want to fight anymore"

When he broke the staredown with Holy I knew this is going to end bad, and it DID end bad.

That he was.

As far as physical condition, he'd rarely ever looked better. That's really all he had going for him, with most of his skills having been eradicated.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[fists of fury]

I think pretty much every really successful athlete (or athlete aspiring to be sucessful) needs a good support system. Tyson was no different.

He had his demons no doubt, but with Rooney and Jacobs around, they were easier to contain. The people that came after were by and large lackeys or yes men.

I'd like to think that, fighting aside, Tyson would have been a more settled guy. More grounded. Jacobs kept Tyson very, very grounded. His ego was kepy nicely in check.

Maybe Tokyo would have happened anyway, I don't know. What I do know is that Tyson would have come in better prepared. More focussed.

It's impossible to say how exactly he would have fared against Holyfield, Bowe and Lewis; all three were excellent fighters, and Lewis was really coming into his own around '94 or so. Tyson would have been champ (assuming he did not lose in the meantime) for nearly eight years...that's a heck of a long stay at the top for a short heavyweight, and it's a lot to ask of anyone in such a competitive era. (Staying undefeated)

My guess is that he would have lost some, won some against these three guys.

[Azzer85]

Im a big Tyson fan, as you know and ive recently come to the conclusion.

Holyfield would give any version of Tyson hell. I recently watched the second fight and looked at some of Holyfields movements, he had studied Tysons style to a T.

To beat Holyfield, Tyson would have to be at his upmost best and put on a performance like never before.

Holyfield is Tysons only obstacle IMO. Tyson wipes the floor with Lennox and i feel Bowe mixing it with Tyson (Like he did with Holyfield) means bad news for Bowe.

[Lester1583]

Holyfield would give any version of Tyson hell.

Isn't the same thing can be said about any fighter who steps into the ring with Holyfield?

[TAC602]

Isn't the same thing can be said about any fighter who steps into the ring with Holyfield?

He was definitely something else.

Holyfield was a damn good fighter on his own merit. His heart, chin and toughness were particularly extraordinary and it does carry him as far as you really want to go with it. He's in the Highest Tier here and that was established before he ever beat Mike Tyson. Every fighter has a bag of dirty tricks, but lets not pretend Holyfield wasnt one of the more exceptional in this area as well. By the mid-90s, he'd also mastered the "counter-clinch".

[lufcrazy]

Not sure it'd be different at all.

Douglas beats him in 90. Maybe he gets a shot at holyfield before prison but more likely he doesn't.

In 96 he'd probably be in better shape but it's hard to say what the 4 year prison stint did.

[Foreman Hook]

Not sure it'd be different at all.

Douglas beats him in 90. Maybe he gets a shot at holyfield before prison but more likely he doesn't.

In 96 he'd probably be in better shape but it's hard to say what the 4 year prison stint did.

Tyson's first Manager Billy Cayton would NOT make Tyson rematch Razza Ruddock like Donny King did.

Donny only made Tyson rematch Ruddock to say a big "FUCK YOU!" to Team Holyfield - as in "i got teh most hyped boxer on teh planet And he doesnt need a title or a Undefeated record to make multi-million$$$ like your champion does!!"

And that means Tyson would not have 3 cracked ribs from teh rematch with Razza, so the Holyfeild fight would NOT be cancelled in 1991.


Foreman Hoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooook!:hat

[TAC602]

Tyson's first Manager Billy Cayton would NOT make Tyson rematch Razza Ruddock like Donny King did.

Donny only made Tyson rematch Ruddock to say a big "FUCK YOU!" to Team Holyfield - as in "i got teh most hyped boxer on teh planet And he doesnt need a title or a Undefeated record to make multi-million$$$ like your champion does!!"

And that means Tyson would not have 3 cracked ribs from teh rematch with Razza, so the Holyfeild fight would NOT be cancelled in 1991.


Foreman Hoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooook!:hat

Yeah, but then again if the second fight didnt happen, we'd have to hear about how Tyson "wouldnt give Ruddock a rematch" and all that bullshit. He ruined Ruddock, and definitely didnt come out unscathed himself.

[Foreman Hook]

Yeah, but then again if the second fight didnt happen, we'd have to hear about how Tyson "wouldnt give Ruddock a rematch" and all that bullshit. He ruined Ruddock, and definitely didnt come out unscathed himself.

I am NOT a Tyson-fan as you all know - But there was no bloody need for a rematch. Razza was v.badly hurt on queer-street And Tyson was stringing together proper vintage combos, a few seconds longer And it would of been night night, lights out for Mr.Ruddock. :dead


Foreman Hoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooook!:smoke

[TAC602]

Great moment in the first fight when Tyson taunts Ruddock and leaves himself intentionally wide open to get hit with a right. What fucking arrogance and risk. Perfect illustration of how Douglas had absolutely no impact on Tyson's psyche. Another occurred in the second fight when Tyson throws low and gets scolded by Mills Lane. The next punch he rips off an overhand right that drops Ruddock to his knees. Thats the type of stuff - among other things - that make people gravitate towards him.

[Jayhaych]

Not sure it'd be different at all.

Douglas beats him in 90. Maybe he gets a shot at holyfield before prison but more likely he doesn't.

In 96 he'd probably be in better shape but it's hard to say what the 4 year prison stint did.


Do you honestly think that Tyson was in shape for the fight Luf? Seriously? Tyson dropped serious weight in the last few weeks leading up to the fight...you don't think that if he hadn't been partying in Tokyo he would've done infinitely better?

And it would've been way different in the sense of the sudden downward spiral would've been postponed by Rooney and Cayton...he wouldn't have been half as wild as he was with Horne Holloway and King.

He'd have destroyed douglas if the fight would've been in america...just as Lennox Lewis destroyed Hasim Rahman when he took it serious! :deal

[Jayhaych]

He was definitely something else.

Holyfield was a damn good fighter on his own merit. His heart, chin and toughness were particularly extraordinary and it does carry him as far as you really want to go with it. He's in the Highest Tier here and that was established before he ever beat Mike Tyson. Every fighter has a bag of dirty tricks, but lets not pretend Holyfield wasnt one of the more exceptional in this area as well. By the mid-90s, he'd also mastered the "counter-clinch".


Lets not forget his 3rd fist (Head) In both Lewis fights...2nd fight much more so, Holyfield used his head again and again......and he was more than deliberate in doing so...Antonio Tarver saying that he trained his head by headbutting the heavybag :bbb

[TAC602]

The Carl Williams fight wouldve been Douglas' fate otherwise.

Jesus Christ, what a powerful left hook.

[Jayhaych]

The Carl Williams fight wouldve been Douglas' fate otherwise.

Jesus Christ, what a powerful left hook. :good

Just a shame that Tyson and Holyfield didn't fight straight after the williams fight...Holyfield starched Rodrigues in the same week in 2.


Mike Tyson " we were working on slipping and hooking, so I slipped to get in there, instantaneously BING throw the punch...and I was successful! "

[TAC602]

Yup.

After disposing of Williams, Tyson made no secret of his feelings about his future. Charging across the ring, he leaned over the ropes and shook his right fist in Holyfield's direction. Tyson later offered to fight Holyfield for nothing in the Convention Center's basement. "The guy who comes back up with the key will be the champion," he said.

[Jayhaych]

Shame it didn't happen...even in 91

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[TAC602]

Yeah, it realistically came anywhere from 5-7 years too late although as a youngster at the time, I have fond memories of the spectacle and thats because I actually, truly really cared about boxing at its then current juncture. The second one was on some kind of excessively diabolical tip. And I mean literally everything to do with it.