My Ranking of Wladimir Klitschko presently.....hes got a long way to go

[SuzieQ49]

I am a big fan of Wlad......I have decided to presently place him in my all time rankings and then mark down what he would have to do to move up in my rankings....

After doing some hard studying on his resume/all around talent/film/intangibles I decided to currently place him 42nd on my All time Heavyweight list. He is certainly a very good heavyweight talent wise, but he has a long way to go accomplishment wise to be considered a great fighter and true champion.


Talent

There is no denying Wlad is A level talent wise. I used to say back in the late 1990s that he was the next Joe Louis, he reminded me so much of joe louis....one of the most complete offensive fighters that came along in a long time. Along with his superheavyweight size 6'6 240lb, he actually matches Lennox lewis and Riddick Bowe in terms of Talent. His jab is Remarkable, Telephone Pole like power wise and pistol like speed wise, it controls the whole tempo of his fights. His defense is very sound, blocking abilities very solid. His combination punching, Knockout power in both hands, and punching technique are off the charts. When he opens up with his underated left hook, hes virtually unstoppable. I thought wlad was going to be the next ATG heavyweight but he had 3 major flaws......

Intangibles

This is what really hurts Wlad. His 3 biggest weaknesses is he has a weak chin, lacks stamina, and I hate to admit this but he lacks Mental toughness. These are 3 attributes needed to be a great fighter. Its not just about Wlad getting knocked out by punchers, He has also been floored a number of times in his career by non punchers.

Heart Questioned: Ross Purrity Fight, I really tried to shrug this one off, but getting stopped late by A fighter of Purrity's Caliber when your coming into your own is very hard to ignore, Wlad did not respond well to being hurt and staggered late in the fight.


Heart/Stamina Questioned: I thought the Purrity fight was a big fluke until I saw Brewster I fight, where he really took a huge hit in his legacy. He had brewster all but beaten, and then suddenly in just 4 rounds Wlad completley runs out of Gas and instead of Trying to suck it up and bounce back from adversity like a true champ does, he essentially gives up the win and lets brewster finish him off. I hate this fight.

- Nearly Losing on technical decision, getting floored by average TOS does not help his legacy one bit.

- Getting flattened embarrasing fashion by a unrated 38 year old out of shape golfer to lose your title certainly does not look good.........

-Getting knocked down 3 times by peter and nearly stopped. If you watched the 3rd knockdown, wlad just goes down without getting hit like hes awfully tired and seemlingly just quit. it puts his stamina/mental toughness back into question. However, he does show improvement by finishing the fight and getting the W, good for him.

Improvement

Wlad has shown alot of improvement in some Areas. Lately his stamina has been far better, He FINALLY avenged a loss by destroying lamon brewster which really boosted his legacy in my eyes, and he hasnt been floored or caught as often by punchers as he was around 5 years ago which mean his defense as improved. I still would like to see him have that one definging fight that shows true heart of a champion.


Resume


Its good, but not great. What he is missing is that one win over a "very good heavyweight". Alexander Potvekin has come along and he looks to me like he has A level talent, he could be the missing link in Wlads resume.

When we Look at Wlads Resume we See his wins

Chris Bryd 2x- Chris Bryd is good heavyweight. but thats how far I will go. any tall heavyweight he ever faced regardless of talent(old golota and mccline).....he struggled vastly. Bryd had skills but he was not on the jimmy young level.

Monte Barett- Decent win over young contender very dominating

Derrick Jefferson- See monte barret explanation

Sam Peter- One of his better wins, especially if Sam Peter turns into a ron lyle caliber Slugger.

Sultan Ibragimov- Another good but not great win. Sultan was an undefeated solid contender like Calvin Brock, but he wasnt a world beater.


Calvin Brock- See Sultan Explanation

Jameel Mccline- Mccline has given alot of top fighters huge fits, and Wlad dominated a young mccline very badly. This is impressive.

Lamon Brewster- A legacy defining win because he avenged in dominating fashion a detrimental loss.


OVerall a good but not great resume, he is missing that one fighter that would put him over the top........That man is Alexander Potvekin most likely. We shall see.

How to rank higher

Back When Mike Tyson was on top in the 1980s he unified ALL THREE BELTS IN A ONE YEAR SPAN. I am not asking Wlad to attempt something this challenging, but at some point I would like to see him unify all 3-4 major belts. if he does this and Beats convinsingly Alexander Potevkin, he shall move into my top 30 heavyweights of all time. Because of his 3 stoppage losses near his prime, its hard to ever see him getting into the top 10 of all time since he is already 32, but if he keeps up this pace for years to come he could find his way into the top 20.

head to head he is a nightmare for alot of fighters, but his chin/stamina/mental toughness will also be a big letdown vs alot of the very good fighters from the past.


Time shall tell for Wlad.......I hope he keeps it up








* Vitali Klitschko does not rank in my top 50 heavyweights of all time.

[BOGART]

I'd agree with a lot of what you put down though I'd probably rate him a bit higher than #42. Couple things I'd disagree with. The Williamson knock down, to me, isn't really worth mentioning. I seem to recall Wlad being more off balance than actually going down from a shot. Besides, if it was a knockdown, than you'd have to reevaluate his mental toughness because he came back from the knockdown to win the round.

The Puritty fight, been a long time since I've seen this one but didn't Wlad's corner stop this? Wlad was in trouble but he simply seemed to have punched himself out. His current more measured pace shows he's learned from that.

Good breakdown on his opponents. Nice to see you mention Barrett. That was a nice dominating win over a young contender that usually gets overlooked for Wlad. Not a great win but a nice one nonetheless.

I too thought Wlad reminded me a bit of Joe Louis minus the Bombers inside game. Offensivly speaking. I also think Wlad's heart is fine. He's been down but will get off the floor and fight on. The problem seems to be more mental. Wlad just isn't a "fighter" like the greats were. He seems to panic at the thought of getting hit or dealing with presssure. Good for him he has the tools to keep guys at bay.

Povetkin could be his signature win but I really think Povetkin isn't ready for Wlad yet. If Wlad gets him now and Povetkin goes onto do some big things he will simply be viewed as having been too green for Wlad, and it would be true. If Povetkin could pull in a couple wins over a Rahman, Briggs, Tos, McCall, Virchis, Brewster, etc, than when he gets in the ring with Wlad he'll have more credibility coming in.

Never ranked that high but you might be right, based on accomplishments, Vitaly probably doesn't get into the top 50. Good post.

[SuzieQ49]

Thanx for the response Bogart. Wlad is knocking at the door of my top 30 heavyweights of all time, only problem is it is locked. He needs that big signature win/unficiation that will allow him to break the door down and jump into top 25-30.

The problem seems to be more mental. Wlad just isn't a "fighter" like the greats were. He seems to panic at the thought of getting hit or dealing with presssure. Good for him he has the tools to keep guys at bay.



I agree wlad has it all below the neck. Now we have to determine if he has it upstairs.

[KobeIsGod]

i think klit could already be in the top 30. 50 wins, 44 kos, 11-2 9ko in titles fights, 9 titles defenses, unified belt holder and he is very good h2h. that's pretty solid. i think it would be interesting to see the 25-30 guys u rank ahead of him

i think povetkin is a cannon fodder for wlad. he has a come foward style, but lacks the power to cause problems. peter gave wlad problems as he pushed forward but could absorb wlad's best power shots. i have my doubts about povetkin doing the same. additionally, povetkin is not nearly as strong/powerful as peter. let us not forget, most of his success came from connecting on illegal punches. povetkin will make wlad throw punches but he looks like a sweller and is a sucker for the straight right hand. i dont think he's a better mark than iggy at this point. a good but not great win. there isnt a potenital great win for him out there right now.

overall, i think u did a very good analysis. imo, wlad's last 6 fights show a huge improvement in foot movement and control of distance. additionally, he uses pretty shrewd defensive techniques like using his left hand to defelect an opponent's head when they rush in and circle away. before steward, he was flat-footed, very hittable and threw too many power shots. sure, he look similar to joe louis but wlad is a much much bigger man than louis. it was simply not sustainable to be that liberal with punches. that was proven against purrity and brewster where he gassed himself. today, he is a less exciting fighter but far more difficult to beat. i don't think he will lose again. i agree though, a top 10 ranking is gonna be tough.

[Sizzle]

Purely head to head, do you rate Wlad ahead of Vitali?

I'd lean towards Vitali.

Good post BTW, I think by the end of his career Wlad will establish himself as a top20 all-time great.

[Sonny's jab]

He fights quite a lot like Lennox these days, IMO.

I dont rate Lennox much, so Wlad's gonna have to do something really special to get my vote.

Having said that, I think rating the all-time heavyweights gets a bit arbitrary after the top 20, so there wouldn't be too much in my mind to seperate number 22 from number 42, I reckon.

[mcvey]

Thanx for the response Bogart. Wlad is knocking at the door of my top 30 heavyweights of all time, only problem is it is locked. He needs that big signature win/unficiation that will allow him to break the door down and jump into top 25-30.




I agree wlad has it all below the neck. Now we have to determine if he has it upstairs.
I dont know if its just below the neck,might also be below the ticker ,for me the division stinks ,even if he beats everyone in the top10 it only makes him good not great.

[janitor]

How to rank higher

Back When Mike Tyson was on top in the 1980s he unified ALL THREE BELTS IN A ONE YEAR SPAN. I am not asking Wlad to attempt something this challenging, but at some point I would like to see him unify all 3-4 major belts. if he does this and Beats convinsingly Alexander Potevkin, he shall move into my top 30 heavyweights of all time.


I think you are being a tad ungenerous here.

Any heavyweight who seperated 3-4 of the belts from their respective owners would be deserving of a top 20 ranking however weak the era was IMHO.

[Mendoza]

Wlad only 42?
Vitali not even top 50?

UGH.

For now, let's look at Wlad. This is an older article. Wlad has accomplished more since...

Who are the top all time 30 heavyweights? You can pick your own. I'll list 30. Odds are we have matches on at least 20 names, and likely 25 names. I'm not here to debate any order, moreover just agree to a general consensus on the names.

M. Ali,L. Holmes,J. Jeffries,J. Louis,S. Liston,G. Foreman,L Lewis,J. Dempsey,R. Marciano,R. Bowe,E. Holyfield,M. Tyson,J. Frazier,J. Johnson,V. Klitschko,G. Tunney,K. Norton,S. Langford,B. Fitzsimmons,J. Corbett,P. Jackson,H Wills,E. Charles,J Walcott, F. Patterson,M Schmeling,J.L. Sullivan,T. Witherspoon, and I.Ibeabuchi

Now that we have the names out of the way, I'll get to my point. Is Wladimir Klitschko on his way to getting on this list? Let's examine by comparing him to the top 30 I just made up.

Current Winning percentage: 94.00%. 6th best of the listed 30 fighters

KO Percentage:85.17%. 3rd best of the listed 30 fighters

Heavyweight title bout record ( Alphabets included ) 11-2. At the top of the list in terms of total wins and percentage of wins. Some may roll their eyes at counting alphabet title defenses. Counter point. Is a guy like Brock any worse than say half of Louis, Ali's, Frazier, or Holmes title opponents? I think not!

Amount of times KO'd. 3 times. Only 13 of the 30 fighters have been Ko'd less. Many traditionally higher rated fighters were Ko'd more often, and in my opinion by lesser punchers.

Size: Few were bigger

Hand Speed: Few had faster hands

Skills: Few had a better jab or right hand.

Power: Few hit harder

Less bums: Wlad fought very few fighters with losing records

All over 200 pounds: Wlad has always fought heavyweights.

No color or geographical line: Wlad has never used the color line and has fought the best fighters from all over the world.

Is Wlad on his way to making a top 30 all time list? I think so! Head to head or accomplishment wise, he stacks up well.
_________________

[The Kurgan]

Purely head to head, do you rate Wlad ahead of Vitali?

I'd lean towards Vitali.


I actually think Wlad would win this decisively. Wlad is the most technically sound boxer, has the faster hands, the better arsenal, more power, and I think is better against other giants in comparison to Vitali. I would expect Wlad to box off the jab, keep Vitali off balance, and either win on cuts or more likely win a firm decision.

[ChrisPontius]

Heart/Stamina Questioned: I thought the Purrity fight was a big fluke until I saw Brewster I fight, where he really took a huge hit in his legacy. He had brewster all but beaten, and then suddenly in just 4 rounds Wlad completley runs out of Gas and instead of Trying to suck it up and bounce back from adversity like a true champ does, he essentially gives up the win and lets brewster finish him off. I hate this fight.

- Nearly Losing on technical decision, getting floored by average TOS does not help his legacy one bit.


Have you seen these fights, SQ?

Wlad never quit in either of the former two. He kept fighting against Purrity, trying to survive, but his corner threw in the towel. Rightfully so, but he didn't quit so i don't see how this reflects badly on his heart.
Same for the Brewster fight. He had nothing left but survived the round but fell down from fatigue, tried to go on but the referee stopped it. He always gets up from knockdowns. I don't see how any of his losses reflect poorly on his heart.


As for "nearly" losing a technical decision. :lol:
Have you seen that fight? He won every second of the fight outside of the flash knockdown, the fight was stopped on a cut that came from a headbutt.


I also find it remarkable that you think Byrd is no more than good, and how he struggled in winning his fights, while you think Machen (a similar fighter with a lesser resume) is outstanding, but have a truckload of excuses for him in his losses, where Byrd won.

[ChrisPontius]

Wladimir Klitschko has been ranked the #1 contender for over two and a half years between 2000 and 2003. He has been the best heavyweight in the world between late 2005 until now and who now for how long. That's six years of being the #1 contender or the best out there, that alone qualifies for a spot in the top30 or even top20 to me.

A guy like Tunney did fuck all at heavyweight outside of a washed up Dempsey and a fat Tom Heeney but he's often ranked in the top15. Guys like Charles and Walcott were at or near the top of the division for something like 7 years and they're ranked in the top15.


Of course, it is only natural to not grant active fighters a high ranking. Throughout the entire history, fighters have ranked low while being active, had their opposition critized, etc, while suddenly raising quite a bit 5 to 10 years after retirement. The same happened recently with Lewis.

[mr. magoo]

Have you seen these fights, SQ?

Wlad never quit in either of the former two. He kept fighting against Purrity, trying to survive, but his corner threw in the towel. Rightfully so, but he didn't quit so i don't see how this reflects badly on his heart.
Same for the Brewster fight. He had nothing left but survived the round but fell down from fatigue, tried to go on but the referee stopped it. He always gets up from knockdowns. I don't see how any of his losses reflect poorly on his heart.


As for "nearly" losing a technical decision. :lol:
Have you seen that fight? He won every second of the fight outside of the flash knockdown, the fight was stopped on a cut that came from a headbutt.


I also find it remarkable that you think Byrd is no more than good, and how he struggled in winning his fights, while you think Machen (a similar fighter with a lesser resume) is outstanding, but have a truckload of excuses for him in his losses, where Byrd won.

He lost the Brewster fight because he had too much vaseline slathered all over his body.

Funny, having vaseline all over me never hindered my performance. Of course, I'm not talking about boxing.

[Mendoza]

Have you seen these fights, SQ?

Wlad never quit in either of the former two. He kept fighting against Purrity, trying to survive, but his corner threw in the towel. Rightfully so, but he didn't quit so i don't see how this reflects badly on his heart.
Same for the Brewster fight. He had nothing left but survived the round but fell down from fatigue, tried to go on but the referee stopped it. He always gets up from knockdowns. I don't see how any of his losses reflect poorly on his heart.

As for "nearly" losing a technical decision. :lol:
Have you seen that fight? He won every second of the fight outside of the flash knockdown, the fight was stopped on a cut that came from a headbutt.

I also find it remarkable that you think Byrd is no more than good, and how he struggled in winning his fights, while you think Machen (a similar fighter with a lesser resume) is outstanding, but have a truckload of excuses for him in his losses, where Byrd won.

Well said Chris. I agree with you on all points. Suzie can reply to your points if he wishes.

[JohnThomas1]

Same for the Brewster fight. He had nothing left but survived the round but fell down from fatigue, tried to go on but the referee stopped it.

I think i'd blame the big left hook a lot more than fatigue. Wlad was firing some punches and not stumbling all over the place right before it, but thereafter wasn't the same man whatsoever. Could be wrong tho.

[mr. magoo]

I'm not a particularly huge fan of Wladimir Klitschko, but frankly I find it unbelievable that SuzieQ can think of 41 heavyweights who ought to be rated ahead of him.

[SuzieQ49]

Theres plenty of time left for him to move up, Wlads still got a long way to go, but he can do it. Ill leave it at that. I think some of you have the "bigger is better" disease and arn't looking at the whole picture. As far as him head to head, I said my peice. He is a nightmare for many contenders/champions throughout history but some of his major flaws also make him susceptible to many top fighters throughout history

[mr. magoo]

Theres plenty of time left for him to move up, Wlads still got a long way to go, but he can do it. Ill leave it at that. I think some of you have the "bigger is better" disease and arn't looking at the whole picture.

What does " bigger is better " have to do with the fact that the guy has won 50 out of 53 fights, is 11-2 in title bouts, and currently holds two belts? He's probably beaten more ranked opponents than Sonny Liston or Rocky Marciano. He's come back from some horrible losses to salvage his career and become a champion-something that most guys can't do.

If you ask me, Wlad is pretty damn awesome.

[SuzieQ49]

What does " bigger is better " have to do with the fact that the guy has won 50 out of 53 fights, is 11-2 in title bouts, and currently holds two belts? He's probably beaten more ranked opponents than Sonny Liston or Rocky Marciano. He's come back from some horrible losses to salvage his career and become a champion-something that most guys can't do.

If you ask me, Wlad is pretty damn awesome.

Yes Wlad is awesome, but what very good/great fighter has Wlad beaten? Has he even established himself linear champ yet? Like I said Wlad still had a lot of time

[mr. magoo]

=SuzieQ49]Yes Wlad is awesome, but what very good/great fighter has Wlad beaten?


Champions are only capable of facing the best fighters who are available during their era. For the most part, I think he's beaten the best men around. Of course, I'd like to see him fight the winner of Chagaev-Valuev, and perhaps give Samuel Peter a rematch, but still.




Has he even established himself linear champ yet? Like I said Wlad still had a lot of time


Usually the public decides who it is that they feel is "THEE" champ. Frankly, I think the popular concensus is that Wladimir Klitschko is the best heavyweight in the world. He currently holds two fragments of the title, which by the way, is more than Holmes ever had at one time.

[PowerPuncher]

Wlad's top30 already, he may move upto top20 when all is said and done and way above his brother Vitali. Thats a fair rating and there are some extremes - Mendoza has Wlad as knocking out a Prime Ali, Suzie doesn't have Wlad in the top40 of all time. This is the dominant HW of the last 5years that is flawed but excellent in many areas and despuite being in a weak era has beaten many of the better fighters in this era

Suzie what 41 fighters do you rate over Wlad? I can understand someone not rating Vitali as top50but Wlad should be top30.

Mendoza how do you see Wlad ko'ing Prime Ali?

[mr. magoo]

Wlad's top30 already, he may move upto top20 when all is said and done and way above his brother Vitali. Thats a fair rating and there are some extremes - Mendoza has Wlad as knocking out a Prime Ali, Suzie doesn't have Wlad in the top40 of all time. This is the dominant HW of the last 5years that is flawed but excellent in many areas and despuite being in a weak era has beaten many of the better fighters in this era

Suzie what 41 fighters do you rate over Wlad? I can understand someone not rating Vitali as top50but Wlad should be top30.

Mendoza how do you see Wlad ko'ing Prime Ali?

This is a very good observation.

I too have noticed that there never seems to be much balance in terms of people's opinions on klitschko. They either love the guy or hate him all together. Some have him beating guys like Holmes and Ali while others don't even see him beating Chuck Wepner.

Me personally, I think I would probably have him ranked somewhere between 15-20 He is a very good fighter with an impressive resume, and can certainly see moving him up in the future.

[Mendoza]

Wlad's top30 already, he may move upto top20 when all is said and done and way above his brother Vitali. Thats a fair rating and there are some extremes - Mendoza has Wlad as knocking out a Prime Ali, Suzie doesn't have Wlad in the top40 of all time. This is the dominant HW of the last 5years that is flawed but excellent in many areas and despuite being in a weak era has beaten many of the better fighters in this era

Suzie what 41 fighters do you rate over Wlad? I can understand someone not rating Vitali as top50but Wlad should be top30.

Mendoza how do you see Wlad ko'ing Prime Ali?

Don't make things up PowerPuncher, I never said Wlad knocks out a prime Ali. Show the source here, or lose credibility. Or simply take the out that you were being sarcastic.

I do think Ali would have hard time with Wlad....Any version of Ali. 66-67' or 71-74. The closest thing to Wlad that Ali faced was Norton, Lyle or Holmes. I think Ali on his best night would win. Re-read this 2x.


I also think on other nights Wlad could win. Norton did it. Lyle almost did it, and like Young or Jones might have done it on points depending on how you score the fights. Of Coruse Holmes and Berbick beat Ali, but Ali was too old for those fights.

[Mendoza]

I'm not a particularly huge fan of Wladimir Klitschko, but frankly I find it unbelievable that SuzieQ can think of 41 heavyweights who ought to be rated ahead of him.

This is how I see its well. As for Wlad being #1, Ring Magaizne, Fight News, Box Rec, and just about every fight expert on quote feels he is the #1 guy out there, and has been for a few years.

[mr. magoo]

Don't make things up PowerPuncher, I never said Wlad knocks out a prime Ali. Show the source here, or lose credibility. Or simply take the out that you were being sarcastic.

I do think Ali would have hard time with Wlad....Any version of Ali. 66-67' or 71-74. The closest thing to Wlad that Ali faced was Norton, Lyle or Holmes. I think Ali on his best night would win. Re-read this 2x.


I also think on other nights Wlad could win. Norton did it. Lyle almost did it, and like Young or Jones might have done it on points depending on how you score the fights. Of Coruse Holmes and Berbick beat Ali, but Ali was too old for those fights.

With all fairness to powerpuncher, he could have easily mistaken someone elses quote for your own. I'm not trying to bail him out of trouble here, but if power puncher has visited the general forum lately, then he's likely heard such claims. Somebody started a thread in the general forum with a title like " 1967 Ali vs klitschko" or something like that. It was astonishing how many people actually said that Wlad would knockout Ali. Additonally, I have read threads in the past where some people have actually rated Corrie Sanders as a top 10 all time great, soley on the basis of his win over Klitschko.


Its really quite bad.

[mr. magoo]

This is how I see its well. As for Wlad being #1, Ring Magaizne, Fight News, Box Rec, and just about every fight expert on quote feels he is the #1 guy out there, and has been for a few years.


I have certainly developed a lot more respect for him over the years. When I saw him get destroyed by Sanders 5 years ago, then by Brewster a year later, I was certain that he was finished. To my surprise, he has regained composure, and elevated himself to the top of the boxing world. This takes a great man to do. Not many fighters can come back from such devastating losses, only to become even better fighters. For this reason, I will never again question the man's heart.

[janitor]

One point that stands in his favour is the fact that he was ranked No1 by Ring Magazine in 4 seperate years.

Do you know how many fighters have been ranked No1 in 3 seperate years?

Harry Wills
Max Schmeling
Jersey Joe Walcott
Sonny Liston
Joe Frazier
Muhamad Ali
Mike Tyson
Evander Holyfield
George Forema (if you include his second career)
Wladamir Klitschko

Once a fighter is on that list they have to be at least encroaching on your top 20 IMHO.

[mr. magoo]

One point that stands in his favour is the fact that he was ranked No1 by Ring Magazine in 4 seperate years.

Do you know how many fighters have been ranked No1 in 3 seperate years?

Harry Wills
Max Schmeling
Jersey Joe Walcott
Sonny Liston
Joe Frazier
Muhamad Ali
Mike Tyson
Evander Holyfield
George Forema (if you include his second career)
Wladamir Klitschko

Once a fighter is on that list they have to be at least encroaching on your top 20 IMHO.

I think if Wladimir klitschko were to retire tommarow, he'd be an all time great.

[SuzieQ49]

To become an ATG, don't you have to fight at least one great fighter, or at least one very good fighter to be considered for such a placement? Is Wlad linear champ? Has he beat the man who beat the man who beat the man?

[mr. magoo]

=SuzieQ49]To become an ATG, don't you have to fight at least one great fighter, or at least one very good fighter to be considered for such a placement?

No, you have to simply prove that you are the best of your era, something that Wlad has already done. History will decide how great his opponents were.




Is Wlad linear champ?

What defines lineal champ? If there is someone else in the world who you think has a good argument for being the heavyweight champion, then why don't you tell me who it is?


Has he beat the man who beat the man who beat the man?


How was he supposed to? " the man" never gave him a title shot, then retired in 2003. Floyd Patterson never fought Rocky Marciano, does that mean he shouldn't be considered " the man "????

By your logic, there hasn't been a real champion in over half a century, so there for I guess there is no lineal title.

[SuzieQ49]

No, you have to simply prove that you are the best of your era, something that Wlad has already done. History will decide how great his opponents were.



Hes only been on top for 2 years, The Era is not over yet. there is some new young blood out there in the heavyweight division that wlad still hasnt fought yet. When he beats some of those top guys, then yes we will dub him # 1 of the era.

[ChrisPontius]

There are several reasons why #42 is too low, but here is a random one:


Two of my favorite non-champion fighters, Jimmy Young and Tim Witherspoon are often ranked in the top25, sometimes top20.

But how much did they really do?

Young was on top of the division for 3-4 years, from Shavers II (74) until Norton (77). He had an impressive streak but did not do all that much outside of that.
What about Witherspoon? He gave Holmes a dead even fight in 83 but had a very good winning streak with a few losses between 82 and 86. After that he was out of the top10 picture, just like Young after '77.

So, they both have four - seven years of being in the top10.

Wlad already had three years at the #1 position and another three years (up to now) of being the best heavyweight out there. So he's already surpassed them, yet he ranks twenty+ spots lower?

[mr. magoo]

Hes only been on top for 2 years, The Era is not over yet. there is some new young blood out there in the heavyweight division that wlad still hasnt fought yet. When he beats some of those top guys, then yes we will dub him # 1 of the era.

The man in your avator was only on top for maybe 2 years, until some young blood came along. Given, that Wlad has the same number of years holding a title, more defenses and has beaten more ranked opponents during his career, wouldn't you say he should be rated higher than Liston?

[Mendoza]

Much like Lennox Lewis, Wlad has faced similar acceptance problems with the Western media.

I think Wlad’s problems actually exceed Lewis in terms of acceptance because Lewis was Jamaican, Canadian, and British. This is close to the Western Media. Wlad came from the Ukraine. Many western based boxing fans still have cold war mentality and cannot look past ancient history.

Wlad also had to overcome the stereo type of being the #1 heavyweight in the world who happens to be white. The bias against him from some well known white and minority boxing writers and fans is obvious. Many of the top boxing writers who happened to be Jewish strongly disliked Wlad’s German based promoter, and went out of their way to belittle him based on that alone. This really was not fair.

How Wlad never became bitter is a testimate to his character. Wlad seems to be one of the most intellectually cultured and generous heavyweights of all time. Make no mistake about it, some people will never like Wlad, but at least they admit he is the #1 guy out there at present. His fists took care of that.

[Sonny's jab]

SuzieQ, I'd be interested in seeing your top 50 list.

I'm surprised Wlad is getting so much praise, but I simply dont know much about him. I didn't realize his winning run since the Brewster loss was meaningful, I'm really not familiar with the fighters of this era.

[mr. magoo]

SuzieQ, I'd be interested in seeing your top 50 list.

I'm surprised Wlad is getting so much praise, but I simply dont know much about him. I didn't realize his winning run since the Brewster loss was meaningful, I'm really not familiar with the fighters of this era.

Yeah right.

I bet you have Wlad and Vitali plastered all over your wall sonny.


[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Sonny's jab]

Yeah right.

I bet you have Wlad and Vitali plastered all over your wall sonny.


[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]
:lol:

[PowerPuncher]

Don't make things up PowerPuncher, I never said Wlad knocks out a prime Ali. Show the source here, or lose credibility. Or simply take the out that you were being sarcastic.

I do think Ali would have hard time with Wlad....Any version of Ali. 66-67' or 71-74. The closest thing to Wlad that Ali faced was Norton, Lyle or Holmes. I think Ali on his best night would win. Re-read this 2x.


I also think on other nights Wlad could win. Norton did it. Lyle almost did it, and like Young or Jones might have done it on points depending on how you score the fights. Of Coruse Holmes and Berbick beat Ali, but Ali was too old for those fights.

I could post a link to a post where you Voted 'Wlad KOs '67 Ali' :hey Do you deny this? I'll find the post and make a thread about it if you want me to :yep :lol:

I think Prime Wlad may outpoint a post-75 Ali but its not a given, Ali tended to find a way to win. Jones never beat Ali, no way he took half of the rounds but it was close

[Mendoza]

I could post a link to a post where you Voted 'Wlad KOs '67 Ali' :hey Do you deny this? I'll find the post and make a thread about it if you want me to :yep :lol:

I think Prime Wlad may outpoint a post-75 Ali but its not a given, Ali tended to find a way to win. Jones never beat Ali, no way he took half of the rounds but it was close

Find that link. I highly doubt its there, and if by chance it is, there was an X mod who manipulated polls in the past.:deal I know what I said here, and that is what counts.

I think Wlad's chin is better than Norton, and Ali couldn't floor norton in three fights that went the distance. Wlad has a much better chance here that you'll admit.

[SuzieQ49]

There are several reasons why #42 is too low, but here is a random one:


Two of my favorite non-champion fighters, Jimmy Young and Tim Witherspoon are often ranked in the top25, sometimes top20.

But how much did they really do?

Young was on top of the division for 3-4 years, from Shavers II (74) until Norton (77). He had an impressive streak but did not do all that much outside of that.
What about Witherspoon? He gave Holmes a dead even fight in 83 but had a very good winning streak with a few losses between 82 and 86. After that he was out of the top10 picture, just like Young after '77.

So, they both have four - seven years of being in the top10.

Wlad already had three years at the #1 position and another three years (up to now) of being the best heavyweight out there. So he's already surpassed them, yet he ranks twenty+ spots lower?


I dont care about how long you been on top. I care about who you beat and how you did vs great fighters. Jimmy young beat a ATG fighter, something Wlad has not done. Tim Witherspoon fought a dead even fight against an ATG and also beat two young A level talent heavyweights in tubbs, page. Both spoon and young undisputably beat better quality than Wlad. Wlad still had tons of time to catch up and pass them though. We will see how he does against the new young blood in the heavyweight division.

[SuzieQ49]

The man in your avator was only on top for maybe 2 years, until some young blood came along.


The man in my avater already demolished all the top young blood in just a 3 year span(Williams 2x, Folley, Patterson 2x, Machen, Bethea)......something no fighter can lay claim to except mike tyson and jersey joe walcott.


If wlad in the next 3 years dominates guys like Potvekin, Chambers, dimentrikov, (already beat Peter), and Chagaev........then Yes Wlad would defintley move into my top 15 heavyweights of all time.

[mr. magoo]

I think Wladimir klitschko deserves to be rated leagues above Jersey Joe Walcott....

[PowerPuncher]

Find that link. I highly doubt its there, and if by chance it is, there was an X mod who manipulated polls in the past.:deal I know what I said here, and that is what counts.

I think Wlad's chin is better than Norton, and Ali couldn't floor norton in three fights that went the distance. Wlad has a much better chance here that you'll admit.

[Only registered and activated users can see links] - I dont think any mods have been editing your votes on here Z

Was Wlads chin better than Nortons? Maybe but not a given, Shavers and Foreman hit harder than Sanders/Brewster/Purity. Alis power and stopping ability is a little underrated too

[SuzieQ49]

Mendoza why do you always bring up the Norton fights when it comes to Ali? Ali was nowhere near his prime for any of the norton fights.

[mr. magoo]

The man in my avater already demolished all the top young blood in just a 3 year span(Williams 2x, Folley, Patterson 2x, Machen, Bethea)......something no fighter can lay claim to except mike tyson and jersey joe walcott.


If wlad in the next 3 years dominates guys like Potvekin, Chambers, dimentrikov, (already beat Peter), and Chagaev........then Yes Wlad would defintley move into my top 15 heavyweights of all time.

Your man doesn't have as many victories over top rated opposition, lost to journeyman early in his career, and never avenged a single loss he ever had. I think Wlad is better than Sonny liston. The truth hurts, but its also a lot of fun.

[PowerPuncher]

I think Wladimir klitschko deserves to be rated leagues above Jersey Joe Walcott....

Jersey Joe beat: Louis, Charles (twice), Johnson, Maxim, Ray, Bivins and a host of contenders. So I don't as of this moment as that Louis performance trumps any win on Wlads ledger, maybe in the future

[SuzieQ49]

I think Wladimir klitschko deserves to be rated leagues above Jersey Joe Walcott....


Well thats your opinion and your entitled too it. I disagree strongly, as others here would too. Thats the Beauty of an opinion. When Wlad proves to me he can essentially clean out all the top 10 rated fighters in a 3 year span like walcott did and embarrass at least one great fighter, I will gladly move him right next to Walcott.

[janitor]

I think Wladimir klitschko deserves to be rated leagues above Jersey Joe Walcott....

No way.

Not yet certainly.

Walcott made a prety clean sweep of the top 10 in the late 40s early 50s.

[SuzieQ49]

Your man doesn't have as many victories over top rated opposition

My man not only beat but he dominated 4 out of the 5 best fighters of his era. He also holds 2 dominating wins over an ATG fighter. He also never lost in his prime in dominating fashion like Wladimir Klitschko did.

lost to journeyman early in his career

Lost to one Ranked fighter in his 7th pro fight on a split decision. This loss was avenged in dominating fashion twice. Your man who had an extensive amatuer background and 20 pro fights lost by TKO, this loss was NEVER avenged. He also subsequently was knocked out twice there after once by a 38 year old man.

I think Wlad is better than Sonny liston. The truth hurts, but its also a lot of fun.


Its nice to dream. I hope it brings a smile to your face

[mr. magoo]

No way.

Not yet certainly.

Walcott made a prety clean sweep of the top 10 in the late 40s early 50s.

Yes but who can we say is better than Wladimir klitschko over the last 3 years or so? It works both ways. Walcott was the best of his era, while Wlad is currently the best of his era.

[Mendoza]

Mendoza why do you always bring up the Norton fights when it comes to Ali? Ali was nowhere near his prime for any of the norton fights.

Norton beat Ali's rear on March 1973 whe Ali was on a long wining streak. Norton beat Ali before Ali beat Frazier and Foreman!!!

Are you saying Ali was past his prime as early as March 1973?

I'm buying that all. Ali had plenty left for the thrid fight with Frazier in October 1975.

While anyone is entitled to an opninion, I still do not think you view things fairly on many fighters you rank over Wlad. They seems to get all excuses, Wlad does not.

[mr. magoo]

[quote=SuzieQ49]My man not only beat but he dominated 4 out of the 5 best fighters of his era. He also holds 2 dominating wins over an ATG fighter. He also never lost in his prime in dominating fashion like Wladimir Klitschko did.


Your man had all but a single title defense against the same guy he took it from. Big deal. Wlad has been beating ranked contenders for years.

Lost to one Ranked fighter in his 7th pro fight on a split decision.

Marty Marshall wasn't ranked, but lets continue.


This loss was avenged in dominating fashion twice.

Heput on his ass in the rematch so I wouldn't say that it was necessarily dominant.


Your man who had an extensive amatuer background and 20 pro fights lost by TKO, this loss was NEVER avenged. He also subsequently was knocked out twice there after once by a 38 year old man.



So what?? Liston has 4 unavenged losses...


Its nice to dream. I hope it brings a smile to your face



Reality makes me smile more, and I'm quite comfortable that I'm living within its borders.

[janitor]

Yes but who can we say is better than Wladimir klitschko over the last 3 years or so? It works both ways. Walcott was the best of his era, while Wlad is currently the best of his era.

What I am saying is that if you look at the rankings over their peak runs and who each beat you will see that Walcott did a more thorough number on his era than Wlad has on his....so far.

[SuzieQ49]

Marty Marshall wasn't ranked, but lets continue.

Not True. Marshall was # 7 rated by Ring Magazine lightheavyweight rankings. He was 18-4 and Young. Doesn't fit the description of a journeyman.

Your man had all but a single title defense against the same guy he took it from. Big deal. Wlad has been beating ranked contenders for years.


Liston already cleaned out the divison pre title. It is a matter of opinion, but I view the young top contenders Liston beat as alot as major step up to the Monte Barrets, and Derrick Jeffersons.


Heput on his ass in the rematch so I wouldn't say that it was necessarily dominant.

Is this your pathetic attempt at trying to get under my skin? Marshall did not put liston on his ass, He scored a quick Flashknockown That put Liston to one knee when Listons was caught off balance. I guess Wlad getting decked by TOS and Castillo isnt embarrasing right? Note liston barely weighed 200lb and it was his 8th pro fight. As for it "not being dominant" have you read a fight report or better read Marty Marshalls quotations on the fight?

In response to knocking liston down marshall said "I regret doing that. I wish I hadn't done that, because he got up with a killer look in his eyes and beat me like no other man should be beaten."

Liston brutalized Marshall knocking him down 4 times and finishing him off in the 6th round.

In the 3rd fight, Marshall said "I ran, no way was I going to let him beat on me like in the 2nd fight." Liston won all 10 rounds.

So what?? Liston has 4 unavenged losses...

I think your Math is wrong, Liston has 2 unavenged losses.......to Muhammad Ali and when he was around 40 years old vs Leotis Martin.

How many fighters at age 33 would be able to avenge a loss to Muhammad Ali??

I wouldn't expect Wlad to avenge a loss at 40 years old to a powerful young contender. Not to mention did liston really get a chance to avenge his loss to Martin? I mean he was killed shortly after the fight.



I can assure you this, Liston was never brutalized in 2 rounds by a 38 year old man, nor was he stopped in 5 rounds by a contender while in his prime.

[mr. magoo]

Not True. Marshall was # 7 rated by Ring Magazine lightheavyweight rankings. He was 18-4 and Young. Doesn't fit the description of a journeyman.

he was a former lightheavyweight journeyman who managed to break liston's jaw. he was nothing special.



[QUOTE]
Liston already cleaned out the divison pre title. It is a matter of opinion, but I view the young top contenders Liston beat as alot as major step up to the Monte Barrets, and Derrick Jeffersons.


Once again, Wlad fought more rated fighters.



Is this your pathetic attempt at trying to get under my skin?

I can tell by your snear that it was an excellent attempt.








I wouldn't expect Wlad to avenge a loss at 40 years old to a powerful young contender. Not to mention did liston really get a chance to avenge his loss to Martin? I mean he was killed shortly after the fight.








I can assure you this, Liston was never brutalized in 2 rounds by a 38 year old man, nor was he stopped in 5 rounds by a contender while in his prime.


How many 6'4" 230 Lb south paws with great power and handspeed did Liston fight? If you're going to say that he never lost to a 38 year old man, then at least tell the whole story about the 38 year old man whom you are referring to.

[SuzieQ49]

he was a former lightheavyweight journeyman who managed to break liston's jaw. he was nothing special.

He was a Ranked contender, since when are journeyman ranked contenders? Did Wlad take on a ranked contender in his 6th professional fight?

Once again, Wlad fought more rated fighters.

Liston fought better fighters

I can tell by your snear that it was an excellent attempt.



Not quite. It kind of made me laugh out loud, thanx for bringing a smile to my face.


How many 6'4" 230 Lb south paws with great power and handspeed did Liston fight?

This literally made me laugh out loud. Going into the fight, Sanders was viewed nothing more than a old out of shape journeyman. Now after he knocks out Wlad, hardcore Wlad supporters have been attempting to make Corrie Sanders look like some kind of joe louis. The only world class fighter Sanders had fought going into the Wladimir Klitschko fight was Hasim Rahman. Sanders was knocked out in the 7th round. I saw the fight too. Rahman is essentially a poor mans liston.

But to fully answer your question........Liston fought and knocked out 6'6 225lb Southpaw German Champ Gherad Zech. In case you try to pull "Zech was a bum"....I will use your own arguements against you by saying Zech fought more rated fighters than Corrie Sanders. O one more thing, Zech was 28 when he fought liston, 10 years younger than sanders.

[mr. magoo]

Look Suzie, if you want to rate Liston above Wlad then fine, but your placing Wlad at #42 was just ridiculous.

[SuzieQ49]

Look Suzie, if you want to rate Liston above Wlad then fine, but your placing Wlad at #42 was just ridiculous.


No more ridiculous then you saying Wlad was a better fighter than Liston. Don't get so wound up, its one kids opinion. Wlad still has many years left to prove to me that I should move him up.

[ChrisPontius]

He also holds 2 dominating wins over an ATG fighter. He also never lost in his prime in dominating fashion like Wladimir Klitschko did.

He lost pretty embarrassingly when he quit on his stool after 6 light rounds in his prime.

Oh wait, when he just annihilated Patterson in one round he is not his prime i guess :patsch



Oh, and you can be pretty sure that if Wlad gets to fight a 180lbs chinless fighter, he'd be linear heavyweight champion by early knock out as well. Wlad doesn't have the benefit of fighting mostly cruiserweights.

[ChrisPontius]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]
:lol:
You're on a roll today SJ. :D

[mr. magoo]

He lost pretty embarrassingly when he quit on his stool after 6 light rounds in his prime.

Oh wait, when he just annihilated Patterson in one round he is not his prime i guess :patsch



Oh, and you can be pretty sure that if Wlad gets to fight a 180lbs chinless fighter, he'd be linear heavyweight champion by early knock out as well. Wlad doesn't have the benefit of fighting mostly cruiserweights.

That's a good point that I never even thought of. In Liston's 54 pro fights, 28 of them are against fighters who weighed less than 200 Lbs, including two of them who beat him.

[janitor]

That's a good point that I never even thought of. In Liston's 54 pro fights, 28 of them are against fighters who weighed less than 200 Lbs, including two of them who beat him.

You can focus too much on weight here.

Some posters here would almost equate fighting Joe Louis to fighting Jean Mak Mormeck because they were both the best fighter of around that weight in their respective eras.

[Sonny's jab]

I'd like to see the full top 50.

[Mendoza]

SuzieQ49

Marshall did not put liston on his ass, He scored a quick Flashknockown That put Liston to one knee when Listons was caught off balance. I guess Wlad getting decked by TOS and Castillo isnt embarrasing right? Note liston barely weighed 200lb and it was his 8th pro fight. As for it "not being dominant" have you read a fight report or better read Marty Marshalls quotations on the fight?

Castillo did not put Wlad down at all. This is false information. Castillo got blown away. TOS did score an off balance knockdown. Wlad got up and won the rest of the round to the point of a 10-9 round being an option. TOS hit harder than Marshall by the way. I don't think Liston ever got off the deck to win fight.

[janitor]

Another way to look at it is this-

If Wlad falls under a bus tomorrow where would he rank in the pantheon of great heavyweights who never held the lineal title?

Would anybody have a case to be ranked ahead of him post colour bar and if so who?

[mr. magoo]

[
quote=janitor]Another way to look at it is this-

If Wlad falls under a bus tomorrow where would he rank in the pantheon of great heavyweights who never held the lineal title?


I think I would still rate him rather generously. He wouldn't make my top 15, but certainly top 30. You can argue that he's not a lineal champion, but I think this title is typically given to a fighter by the concencus. Popular opinion has him listed as the best heavyweight of the last 4 years. Holmes never unified the crown, nor fought every top contender, and in fact was stripped of a title, as was Lennox Lewis, but both make most people's top 10 list. Therefore, we have to at least make some of the same considerations for Klitschko.



Would anybody have a case to be ranked ahead of him post colour bar and if so who?


I'm not sure. What time frames are we talking about when we say post colour bar? If we're talking about anytime post Joe Louis, then I would say that quite a few would rank ahead of him in my own book, as I feel that most of history's best heavyweights lived and fought from Joe Louis's era onward.

[Vanboxingfan]

Interesting discussion. certainly on a H2H basis Wald is anywhere between top 15 +/- 5 depending on how you think he'd react to getting hit, whether or not he would in fact get hit, and the offense he brings to the table. In terms of legacy I think he's pretty much in the top 20-25 range at the moment. He'd have a hard time cracking the top 10 ATG status given his losses, but he could possibly get into the top 15. That's my take on him anyway. Regarding the linear title, that technically stopped when Tunney retired, although I guess one can talk about the man who beat the man etc., more recently Lewis retired and closed that option.

[SuzieQ49]

I don't think Liston ever got off the deck to win fight.

Liston was floored in the marshall rematch, got off the floor and knocked marshall out in the 6th round.


- Your Right about Castillo, I was thinking of Panell

[Quick Cash]

Norton beat Ali's rear on March 1973 whe Ali was on a long wining streak. Norton beat Ali before Ali beat Frazier and Foreman!!!

Are you saying Ali was past his prime as early as March 1973?

I'm buying that all. Ali had plenty left for the thrid fight with Frazier in October 1975.

While anyone is entitled to an opninion, I still do not think you view things fairly on many fighters you rank over Wlad. They seems to get all excuses, Wlad does not.

Of course Ali was past his prime. Not since he was banned from ring action has he moved as gracefully in and out of trouble. In his comeback, that grace diminished and then later abandoned him altogether; it was through guile and determination that he ultimately achieved what he did in his return.

Just because his best wins were still ahead of him in 1973 doesn't necessitate that he was still smack in the middle of his prime years; that just proves that he was far from a shot fighter. Having plenty left in the tank does not equate to a full tank and you know it.

Foreman, Frazier and Norton, like so many wins and losses, happened past his best. He won against all of them past his prime and he lost to two of them past his prime.

[Mendoza]

Of course Ali was past his prime. Not since he was banned from ring action has he moved as gracefully in and out of trouble. In his comeback, that grace diminished and then later abandoned him altogether; it was through guile and determination that he ultimately achieved what he did in his return.

Just because his best wins were still ahead of him in 1973 doesn't necessitate that he was still smack in the middle of his prime years; that just proves that he was far from a shot fighter. Having plenty left in the tank does not equate to a full tank and you know it.

Foreman, Frazier and Norton, like so many wins and losses, happened past his best. He won against all of them past his prime and he lost to two of them past his prime.

Spoken like a true Ali fan trying to excuse his loses and close calls. Here's the deal. A post 1971 Ali was a better ring strategist, clincher, counter puncher, technician on defense, and power hitter. Ali had a string of good performances post 1971 leading up to the Norton fight in 1973.

The 1960's version of Ali was green on these skills, and faced weaker competition in general. While Ali's foot speed of the early 70’s was not as great, he was still fast. IMO, Ali from 1973-1975 was still in his prime. He was 31-33 years old in these years.

You might say Ali 73-75’ had plenty left in the tank, but not a full tank. My reply is, Ali tank grew in capacity in the ways I outlined above. Let’s not confuse tougher competition with Ali being past his prime as they are different things.

[Quick Cash]

Spoken like a true Ali fan trying to excuse his loses and close calls. Here's the deal. A post 1971 Ali was a better ring strategist, clincher, counter puncher, technician on defense, and power hitter. Ali had a string of good performances post 1971 leading up to the Norton fight in 1973.

The 1960's version of Ali was green on these skills, and faced weaker competition in general. While Ali's foot speed of the early 70’s was not as great, he was still fast. IMO, Ali from 1973-1975 was still in his prime. He was 31-33 years old in these years.

You might say Ali 73-75’ had plenty left in the tank, but not a full tank. My reply is, Ali tank grew in capacity in the ways I outlined above. Let’s not confuse tougher competition with Ali being past his prime as they are different things.

I'm not trying to excuse anything. I'm not even going to speculate on what Ali might have been capable of had he not been pulled from the ring in '67 because I don't need to quite honestly. On strategy, Ali relied solely on quickness of hand and foot whilst in his prime, and in every outing up to that point it worked! Upon his return maybe you were awed by his use of the rope-a-dope, his scientific clinching when faced with a relentless Frazier the second time around; these things were reactions elicited by the situation at the time. I'm sure you would not refute me when I say that Ali was a adapting fighter. Well, if you're not convinced that he exhibited these qualities in his earlier years, then I suggest you rewatch the Terrell and Chuvalo fights for reference. In the Chuvalo fight, he was darting in and out, constantly changing his approach round after round then switching back at will. These things could be classified as strategy, but to be honest, I think they're something more than that. Frankly, Ali was never possessed of the kind of conventional intellect that would enable him to be completely successful in a strategic match against the very best. If he was smart, for instance, he would not have used the rope-a-dope again and again to the point of obsolescence. Holmes, Lewis and Tunney had more strategic prowess at their disposal in my point of view. They're more systematic. Ali, for his part, had the kind of adaptive ability Dempsey had when in his prime. He was that kind of talent.

His defensive stance remained mostly unchanged through all the fighting years: gloves in front of the face in the classical position of defense. How exactly in your opinion did he improve in this regard? He had to forgo some of the techniques he had used in the past because he could no longer move with the same speed in fact! The way he parried Terrell with extended arms to prevent incoming blows to the head. You think Cooper and Banks scored heavily on Ali is that it?
How do you explain Chuvalo saying that Ali had not come out of the exile the same as he came in? He wasn't an avid fan. He had no reason to make his loss any more aggravating by telling the world he lost to an inferior article. Why were the scores closer the second time around, with George being mostly unaffected. Remember that Chuvalo suffered a cut in the first time and his face was very severely marked. Remember also that this was Chuvalo's last meaningful fight, happening well after his losses to Bonavena, Frazier, Mathis, Foreman and Ellis so he wasn't exactly fresh in there. This was a fight that happened while Ali was stringing up those good performances you mentioned. Why did the first opponent that had previous experience with Clay say that he was not the same?

Simple yes or no, Mendoza: can a fighter rake in a series of impressive wins while past his best? Shouldn't Ali, arguably the best heavyweight ever, be able to string along wins more impressive than the average Joe Blow-- say, wins against Frazier, Foreman and Norton?

Don't make the mistake of confusing his most noteworthy wins with his biggest wins; that has more to do with oppostion in a given era. You seem to be saying that since he hadn't yet recorded his career-making victories--the victories he had against his greatest rivals-- that he was still the same Ali that danced under the lights for fifteen rounds. He clearly was not.

[SuzieQ49]

Spoken like a true Ali fan trying to excuse his loses and close calls. Here's the deal. A post 1971 Ali was a better ring strategist, clincher, counter puncher, technician on defense, and power hitter. Ali had a string of good performances post 1971 leading up to the Norton fight in 1973.

The 1960's version of Ali was green on these skills, and faced weaker competition in general. While Ali's foot speed of the early 70’s was not as great, he was still fast. IMO, Ali from 1973-1975 was still in his prime. He was 31-33 years old in these years.



I couldn't disagree more. I think Ali at his very best was 65-67, he would have won wide decisions over norton and young had this version of ali fought them.

[C. M. Clay II]

I couldn't disagree more. I think Ali at his very best was 65-67, he would have won wide decisions over norton and young had this version of ali fought them.

Personally, I think he would have stopped both in his prime years.:good