Was Sonny really that slow?????

[JohnThomas1]

I have a fight summation and Liston story from not long before he won the title and in the description is, "he punches with blinding speed and in dazzling combinations".

Now even giving room for plenty of exaggeration this could still mean Liston is a long way from the plodder many seem to see him as.


Discuss.....

[mr. magoo]

At one point, I read that Sonny's trianer's had to pay his sparring partners to slow down for him so that he wouldn't lose confidence. Of course, this was right around the time he fought Clay, which was not the peak of his career in my opinion.

[JohnThomas1]

At one point, I read that Sonny's trianer's had to pay his sparring partners to slow down for him so that he wouldn't lose confidence. Of course, this was right around the time he fought Clay, which was not the peak of his career in my opinion.

One of the sparring partners wasn't Hector "Macho" Camacho was it? :lol:

[Sonny's jab]

I've rarely seen a heavyweight explode and pounce with a punch out of the blue as quickly and as deadly as Liston did with that left against Roy Harris.

If that's slow, I've never seen fast.

[ChrisPontius]

I think he was very slow.


Put it this way: which champion over 200 pounds was slower than Liston?

Carnera perhaps, but he was 260lbs.

Who else? I can't think of a single one. Hell, even the heavier ones, like Bowe (240lbs), Foreman (220lbs), Ali (215lbs), Holmes (213lbs), Lewis (245lbs) were all easier faster.

Machen completely neutralised Sonny's jab because he was so slow. Dito with Clay. With the final punches that knock down Williams. Slow and telegraphed. Compared to other champions, of course.

[JohnThomas1]

Keep em coming guys, cheers.

[Mendoza]

I have a fight summation and Liston story from not long before he won the title and in the description is, "he punches with blinding speed and in dazzling combinations".

Now even giving room for plenty of exaggeration this could still mean Liston is a long way from the plodder many seem to see him as.

Discuss.....

Sonny was one of the slower handed champions. I think ever lineal champion post Liston had faster hands, with the exception of the 90's version of Foreman.



However, Sonny's technique, strength, range, and heavy-handed power more than made up for his average speed.

[mr. magoo]

One of the sparring partners wasn't Hector "Macho" Camacho was it? :lol:

I think Goerge Foreman was one of them. I certainly hope that they didn't need to pay him to slow down.

[JohnThomas1]

I think Goerge Foreman was one of them. I certainly hope that they didn't need to pay him to slow down.

:lol:

[mr. magoo]

I really don't think it matters how fast Liston was. The fact is, if he hit you, you were fucked.....Period.........

[mcvey]

I have a fight summation and Liston story from not long before he won the title and in the description is, "he punches with blinding speed and in dazzling combinations".

Now even giving room for plenty of exaggeration this could still mean Liston is a long way from the plodder many seem to see him as.


Discuss.....
At his peak ,I don't think you could call his hand speed better than average,and his feet were slow,though most of his weight was in his upper body ,he didnt have big legs,like say Tyson.

[ChrisPontius]

Maybe not as big as Tyson's (who had?), but his legs looked very strong and his thighs were immense.

Have a look:


[Only registered and activated users can see links]



[Only registered and activated users can see links]


But he wasn't light on his feet, no.

[Sonny's jab]

Liston slowed down when he got older. Around 1964.

People are under the impression that Liston quit on his stool against Clay. It's not true, he was just a bit slow getting off it.

In the rematch he suffered a flash knockdown. Where a young Liston would have been up in that flash in 1 or 2 seconds, the slow old Liston was up in a "flash" of 18 seconds ! Luckily the referee Walcott had slowed down even more than Liston and was just getting set to toll "One!" when Liston got up.

Cassius Clay was so fast he needed to suffer a hernia to adjust to Liston's pace.

The relative difference in speed between the two men was such that by the time Liston had left the ring in Miami and got to the press conference, Clay had undergone a full religious/political conversion, changed his name to Muhammad Ali, caused multiple minor contoversies, recited a volume of poetry and re-shaped boxing history forever. Liston, for his part, had got his arm put in a sling.

[JohnThomas1]

Maybe not as big as Tyson's (who had?), but his legs looked very strong and his thighs were immense.

Have a look:


[Only registered and activated users can see links]



[Only registered and activated users can see links]


But he wasn't light on his feet, no.

I disagree Chris, he looks damn light on his feet in the second pic!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[JohnThomas1]

Liston slowed down when he got older. Around 1964.

People are under the impression that Liston quit on his stool against Clay. It's not true, he was just a bit slow getting off it.

In the rematch he suffered a flash knockdown. Where a young Liston would have been up in that flash in 1 or 2 seconds, the slow old Liston was up in a "flash" of 18 seconds ! Luckily the referee Walcott had slowed down even more than Liston and was just getting set to toll "One!" when Liston got up.

Cassius Clay was so fast he needed to suffer a hernia to adjust to Liston's pace.

The relative difference in speed between the two men was such that by the time Liston had left the ring in Miami and got to the press conference, Clay had undergone a full religious/political conversion, changed his name to Muhammad Ali, caused multiple minor contoversies, recited a volume of poetry and re-shaped boxing history forever. Liston, for his part, had got his arm put in a sling.

:lol:

[JohnThomas1]

I really don't think it matters how fast Liston was. The fact is, if he hit you, you were fucked.....Period.........

Well here's a tasty morsel for ya - Liston knocked out 7, count em, SEVEN of Bethea's teeth with one right hand.

:!:

[mr. magoo]

Well here's a tasty morsel for ya - Liston knocked out 7, count em, SEVEN of Bethea's teeth with one right hand.

:!:

Yeah, He was known for snapping fighter's teeth off right at the gumline.

[Sonny's jab]

No, Liston's jab was so slow that by the time it hit his opponent in the mouth their teeth had fallen out due to neglect and decay.

[mr. magoo]

No, Liston's jab was so slow that by the time it hit his opponent in the mouth their teeth had fallen out due to neglect and decay.

LOL :lol:
I never realized what a great sense of humor you had Sonny. :good

[Big N Bad]

if you watch his fights against besmanoff, you will see he has more than decent speed. not great though. but very good!

no way he is slower than some of our recent super heavies.
when he was finishing williams off, he was throwing bombs, not flurries.

also this shows that he is also extremly heavyhanded! just look at the way and speed of foremans punches for example, he is extremly heavy handed.
guys who have that sort of born structure (broad shouldered), thick/heavy bones tend to be limited speed wise.

its almost like they are having trouble moving those heavy arms.

i am saying all this from personal experience. i have broad shoulders, and i have very heavy hands, when i try to throw combos in fast flurries, i can only make them so much faster, cos of my build.

[Sonny's jab]

LOL :lol:
I never realized what a great sense of humor you had Sonny. :good

Well, it's got to the point on this forum where we can have a laugh about most things or we can go have a traumatic breakdown over someone else's rating of a notable fighter. I've decided on the first option, but I think others are doomed to the latter ! :lol:

[sthomas]

Just watched Clay vs. Liston I last night. Round 3 was a great round. Clay's blinding speed and accuracy in the first 1/2 of the round, then Liston coming back and landing some nice shots. Obviously he looks slower than Clay but I actually thought his speed was pretty good considering who he was up against. It was truely a modern, fully evolved boxing match; great footwork, punching technique, power. Watched a bit of Wlad Klit too and thought, Clay/Liston would be right in the mix in this era, of course Ali would be champ.

[mr. magoo]

Well, it's got to the point on this forum where we can have a laugh about most things or we can go have a traumatic breakdown over someone else's rating of a notable fighter. I've decided on the first option, but I think others are doomed to the latter ! :lol:

I myself don't take much seriously around here anymore either. When I first joined the forum, I used to spend an obscene amount of time responding to adversary's posts with these long and elaborate responses. Now, I don't even bother. The way I see it, someone either knows a subject or they don't, and no amount of talking is going to undo the human tendency to let pride and ego take over, even when they know they're wrong.

So let's just laugh it up my good friend :cheers

P.S. I've even considered becoming a troll on here just for the fun of it. Maybe I'll start a thread about how Holyfield and Ali were both such pussies.

[Lobotomy]

I myself don't take much seriously around here anymore either. When I first joined the forum, I used to spend an obscene amount of time responding to adversary's posts with these long and elaborate responses. Now, I don't even bother. The way I see it, someone either knows a subject or they don't, and no amount of talking is going to undo the human tendency to let pride and ego take over, even when they know they're wrong.

So let's just laugh it up my good friend :cheers

P.S. I've even considered becoming a troll on here just for the fun of it. Maybe I'll start a thread about how Holyfield and Ali were both such pussies.When I grow up, I wanna be just like you!:bowdown

[ChrisPontius]

no way he is slower than some of our recent super heavies.
when he was finishing williams off, he was throwing bombs, not flurries.


So did Lewis when he finished off Golota/Botha/Rahman/Ruddock/etc, but he never looked that slow.
So did Tyson when he finished off Thomas/Berbick (watch the 1st knockdown)/Holmes/etc etc. And you can go on. They were all in a different speed category despite being at least as heavy handed.

[fists of fury]

P.S. I've even considered becoming a troll on here just for the fun of it. Maybe I'll start a thread about how Holyfield and Ali were both such pussies.

As long as you keep those avatars coming, you can do whatever the hell you want. :good

[dmt]

yes, slow but dangerous

[Marciano Frazier]

I think he was very slow.


Put it this way: which champion over 200 pounds was slower than Liston?

Carnera perhaps, but he was 260lbs.

Who else? I can't think of a single one. Hell, even the heavier ones, like Bowe (240lbs), Foreman (220lbs), Ali (215lbs), Holmes (213lbs), Lewis (245lbs) were all easier faster.

Machen completely neutralised Sonny's jab because he was so slow. Dito with Clay. With the final punches that knock down Williams. Slow and telegraphed. Compared to other champions, of course.
:huh I don't think Foreman was faster than Liston. Do you really think Jess Willard was faster than Liston was? I don't. Max Baer may not have been, either.

That said, you do have something there in principle, I'd say. Liston was not "slow," in my opinion, but he was one of the slow-er champs for his size.

[McGrain]

He wasn't slow, no.

[ChrisPontius]

:huh I don't think Foreman was faster than Liston. Do you really think Jess Willard was faster than Liston was? I don't. Max Baer may not have been, either.

That said, you do have something there in principle, I'd say. Liston was not "slow," in my opinion, but he was one of the slow-er champs for his size.
I'd say Foreman and Liston are both about as slow, but since Foreman is 10-15lbs bigger, Liston is slower for his weight.

You are right, i forgot about Willard and Baer. They're probably smaller though Willard also is a lot bigger. That's hardly a good bunch to be compared with ability-wise, though. Outside of chin and power, they were absolutely horrible.