Sonny Liston v.s Joe Frazier

[Bad_Intentions]

predictions?

[robert ungurean]

Liston should take this one similar to the way Foreman did.Although I see him taking a few rds longer as I believe he would jab his way in and be a little more patiant than George.

[Muchmoore]

Liston wins by KO in 5.

[rekcutnevets]

Liston by ko.

[Bad_Intentions]

liston KO 1so early? :?

[McGrain]

This one is wrong, wrong, wrong for Joe.

Liston hits harder than Foreman. For the purposes of this fight he'd be as functionally as strong as Foreman. He's a better boxer than George, his reach is longer than George and we all know what George did to Frazier.

I pick Liston very early. Maybe round 2.

Maybe round 1.

[Bad_Intentions]

This one is wrong, wrong, wrong for Joe.

Liston hits harder than Foreman. For the purposes of this fight he'd be as functionally as strong as Foreman. He's a better boxer than George, his reach is longer than George and we all know what George did to Frazier.

I pick Liston very early. Maybe round 2.

Maybe round 1.don't you think frazier's movement would keep him alive until the 2nd round or 3rd???

[McGrain]

don't you think frazier's movement would keep him alive until the 2nd round or 3rd???

More his endurance and bloody-mindedness.

Probably he would make the 2nd or even the 3rd. But Liston was a pretty awesome finisher.

[timmers612]

I am legend is obviously an unappreciated boxing god. Aside from that I am sure glad we didn't see what would have been a very bad day for smokin Joe here. Anyone who came right at Sonny was in a heap o' trouble.

[Bad_Intentions]

Opinion: Foreman sucks
Fact: Foreman beat fraizer in round 2
Fact: Liston rapes Frazier in 1 round.much better.

[DocDevil]

Liston takes Frazier,Liston along with Foreman is a very bad matchup for Joe.

[Marciano Frazier]

Wow, this is incredible! Seven out of seven respondents think Liston would just blow Frazier away. I would like to repeat, for about the hundredth time I've said it, that the Frazier who was blasted out by Foreman was a deteriorated, overweight and unfocused version and not the same fighter who had beaten Ali. Liston was not as aggressive and, in my opinion, not as powerful as Foreman, Frazier was considerably more durable than Patterson, and Foreman took two and five rounds to stop a marginally past-prime and semi-shot Frazier respectively. In particular, then, it baffles me that people are predicting a Liston one-round knockout here.
Now, I think a Liston stoppage is a real possibility, especially if he could take charge immediately and maintain it for a few rounds, but there would be at least a very live chance that the quicker, busier, better-conditioned, and much tougher Frazier could survive early and take over the fight as it progressed through the middle and later rounds.

[JohnThomas1]

Liston KO inside 3.

[Holmes' Jab]

This is a bad, bad matchup for Joe, anybody who "pressure" fights Liston by going straight for him would realistically end up in big trouble. Frazier was a superb fighter, however styles make fights and I can't seen him lasting beyond the mid-rounds.

Liston TKO4 Frazier

[PowerPuncher]

Liston KO3

[janitor]

I think Liston would be an even worse match up for Frazier than Foreman was.

[Holmes' Jab]

I think Liston would be an even worse match up for Frazier than Foreman was.

It certainly wouldn't be out of the question.

[Executioner]

Liston would murder Frazier.

[Manassa]

This has been a real arse kicking. This thread doesn't do Frazier justice, but I have to agree with the majority... Liston crushes him.

[ironchamp]

This thread isnt really doing Frazier any justice but I agree,
Liston wins via TKO in round 6 with Frazier bagging at least one round in the process.

[Jack]

Too many people put weight on Frazier losing to Foreman. In reality, that version was not even close to prime Frazier.

Why would Liston stop Frazier early? Ignore the Foreman fight for a second and think about it. Who did Liston ever stop early? He stopped 23 boxers before the fourth round. How many of those were close to being as good as Frazier? None. Who was the best early KO? Against glass jawed Patterson.

I'd really like to know why people think Frazier would be stopped so early, when the facts clearly say that would be unlikely to happen. According to the general consensus here, Frazier would last less than 4 rounds. Added to that, outside of the Foreman fight, how many times was Frazier down early? Despite being an slow starter, it wasn't often. You could certainly sayit was because he was either green or well past it.

Making a prediction based on the loss against Foreman is like me bringing up the second Ali/Liston fight. Frazier had problems with Ron Stander. He was shot to pieces by the time he fought Foreman.

Prime Frazier wins. I'd say he stops Liston late - Probably 10 or 11. Slightly harder puncher, better defence, faster and a better chin. He wouldn't allow Liston to fight at range and fight the way he wanted to. After taking some early punishment, Frazier would wear Liston down throughout the fight.

Liston does give Frazier problems, but this fight is probably worse stylistically for him. Close fight, but the better man would win.

[fightking12]

Too many people put weight on Frazier losing to Foreman. In reality, that version was not even close to prime Frazier.

Why would Liston stop Frazier early? Ignore the Foreman fight for a second and think about it. Who did Liston ever stop early? He stopped 23 boxers before the fourth round. How many of those were close to being as good as Frazier? None. Who was the best early KO? Against glass jawed Patterson.

I'd really like to know why people think Frazier would be stopped so early, when the facts clearly say that would be unlikely to happen. According to the general consensus here, Frazier would last less than 4 rounds. Added to that, outside of the Foreman fight, how many times was Frazier down early? Despite being an slow starter, it wasn't often. You could certainly sayit was because he was either green or well past it.

Making a prediction based on the loss against Foreman is like me bringing up the second Ali/Liston fight. Frazier had problems with Ron Stander. He was shot to pieces by the time he fought Foreman.

Prime Frazier wins. I'd say he stops Liston late - Probably 10 or 11. Slightly harder puncher, better defence, faster and a better chin. He wouldn't allow Liston to fight at range and fight the way he wanted to. After taking some early punishment, Frazier would wear Liston down throughout the fight.

Liston does give Frazier problems, but this fight is probably worse stylistically for him. Close fight, but the better man would win.

True

[Luigi1985]

OMG is Liston overrated here! Liston would murder Frazier? WTF did this fighter that he´s so favoured by some of you?



Frazier TKO 9 Liston

[Jack]

OMG is Liston overrated here! Liston would murder Frazier? WTF did this fighter that he´s so favoured by some of you?



Frazier TKO 9 Liston
You got it right, Luigi :good

Liston beat no elite fighters in his career and certainly who was close to being as good as Frazier.

He was famous for quitting. That says a lot.

[Sonny's jab]

I think Joe Frazier is the greater fighter.

But I dont know who would win between him and Liston. I guess it would be a tough fight either way.

I think people under-rate Frazier terribly.

[Luigi1985]

You got it right, Luigi :good

Liston beat no elite fighters in his career and certainly who was close to being as good as Frazier.

He was famous for quitting. That says a lot.


Exactly! I like Sonny and have nothing against him, but if we look at his best wins (mental ill and for punchers tailor made Patterson, totally old and shot Valdes, point win over Machen) we clearly see that he was not in Frazier´s league for example...

[JohnThomas1]

Too many people put weight on Frazier losing to Foreman. In reality, that version was not even close to prime Frazier.


Many of us also feel Foreman would have done similar things to the best of Frazier.

Why would Liston stop Frazier early? Ignore the Foreman fight for a second and think about it. Who did Liston ever stop early? He stopped 23 boxers before the fourth round.

Stopping so many boxers early sure shows Liston had the Mad Pow to get someone out of their early.

How many of those were close to being as good as Frazier? None. Who was the best early KO? Against glass jawed Patterson.

How many guys did Frazier fight that were as hard hitting as Liston and with as much ability to boot? Foreman, and we all know what happened there.

I'd really like to know why people think Frazier would be stopped so early, when the facts clearly say that would be unlikely to happen. According to the general consensus here, Frazier would last less than 4 rounds. Added to that, outside of the Foreman fight, how many times was Frazier down early? Despite being an slow starter, it wasn't often.

Again, when did he ever face the punching and finishing calibre of a Liston? Again, we arrive at only Foreman, and IMO Liston is even more dangerous overall.

Making a prediction based on the loss against Foreman is like me bringing up the second Ali/Liston fight. Frazier had problems with Ron Stander. He was shot to pieces by the time he fought Foreman.

The majority of us believe the second Ali fight to be a fix, whilst Foreman's stoppage of George is undoubtably above board.

Prime Frazier wins. I'd say he stops Liston late - Probably 10 or 11. Slightly harder puncher, better defence, faster and a better chin.

Harder puncher, i cannot agree. I think Liston packs more punch in their single best of their best and far far more power when averaged out over both wings. Liston also IMO has an underrated defense and his chin certainly matches Joe's IMO too.

He wouldn't allow Liston to fight at range and fight the way he wanted to. After taking some early punishment, Frazier would wear Liston down throughout the fight.

Liston has no aversion whatsoever to slugging in the trenches if need be, he has enormous power in both hands, a tight hook and a massive uppercut which is the punch i am betting will be the beginning of the end for Joe. Liston's jab will force Frazier to take chances getting inside and his uppercuts will be hell on wheels. I see an uppercut staggering Joe early with Liston finishing his man. When badly hurt Joe isn't going to get on his bike and find safe haven.

Liston does give Frazier problems, but this fight is probably worse stylistically for him. Close fight, but the better man would win.

I still think it is a stylistic nightmare for Joe. I think Joe is underrated both for ability and power nowadays and would beat plenty an ATG, but not this one.

[JimmyShimmy]

Even Harry Greb would crack that bloody awful glass jaw.

Liston KO 1.

[Luigi1985]

Even Harry Greb would crack that bloody awful glass jaw.

Liston KO 1.


Frazier didn´t lose viá 1st round KO...

[JimmyShimmy]

Frazier didn´t lose viá 1st round KO...

That's cause he never faced Greb.

[timmers612]

Flabby gut, you made an interesting comparison there about the Quarry of the Spenser and Lyle fights. You may be right about Jerry winning but I don't think so because of Liston's big jab and that Jerry wouldn't hurt the Liston of the Cleaveland Williams fights. Mac Foster kept Jerry at bay until he was ko'd with nothing but his short repeated jabs and Jerry simply had no answer until he saw that opening and crushed Mac. I can't see Jerry avoiding being busted up from Liston's jab.

[Titan1]

Frazier Tko 8 Liston.He would not be intimidated and that would be half the battle.

[MachineGunMitch]

Fact: Foreman sucks
Fact: Foreman beat fraizer in round 2
Fact: Liston rapes Frazier in 1 round.

Fact:your an idiot

Id say Frazier puts up a great match and pulls off the UD

[mightyd40]

Fact: Foreman sucks
Fact: Foreman beat fraizer in round 2
Fact: Liston rapes Frazier in 1 round.
though i am amazed that u think foreman is so bad, i agree that liston would have probably ko'd frazier in 1......his equal power mixed with his straighter punches would have found joe even earlier........a nightmare of a fight for smoking joe

[DocDevil]

Liston lost four times to guys who stayed away,that was never in Smokin Joe;s programing.Frazier comes straight at Sonny,and gets pounded on.

[Maxmomer]

Liston KO 6.

[Seamus]

Frazier KO10 Liston.


I think the Liston-Foreman comparison is extremely imaginative and uninformed. Also, I tend to agree that Frazier was used up by the time of Foreman I, let alone II.

[Joe E]

joe frazier had a chance to fight liston on his way up and did'nt.why?because sonny was dangerous evan after he was beaten by ali and the people handling frazier knew better.joes' style was all wrong to beat liston.sonny would hold him off with an 84 in.reach and hit him almost at will with straight rights, with joe was prone to his entire carrer and with his monster left hook.evan with joes'bobbing style he was still easy to hit.i don't see this fight going 6 rds.with sonny winning via ko.thanks.

[mr. magoo]

[quote=Flabby Gut]The Jerry Quarry of the Thad Spencer or Ron Lyle fights would have kicked Liston's ass.

Jerry Quarry was one of my favorite fighters, but I can't credit him with having too good of a chance against a prime Liston. The Sonny of 1960 ( not the one who fought Clay 4 years later, ) was a powerful force, who could have devoured most heavyweights. Look at what he did to the likes of Folley, Williams, Machen and Patterson. Hell, even in his comeback days between 1966 and 1970, he was still very dangerous. Liston possesed good defensive skills, a great jab, and ferocious right hand. What's more, he never showed fear of anybody and had the abilty to make another fighter shit in his pants. Quarry was a tough S.O.B, no question about it. I'll always give him credit for being one of the greatest contenders of all time, but there's no fuckin' way his skin would hold up against Sonny. The sad fact of the matter is that he cut and bled way too easily against your more lethal hitters.
I could just picture Jerry a bloody mess by about the 5th round.

The original topic of this thread is what would happen between Liston and Frazier. Well, for those who assume that Sonny would crush him because George did, I have to say that it's a bad comparison. For one thing, Joe's health was declining against Foreman, and for another, George fought a style that differed greatly from Liston's. Sure, both guys had enough power to send the average heavyweight through a brick wall, but George liked to get his guys at about mid range, and use those looping hooks to the head and body. Liston, on the otherhand preffered to jab his way in for the kill. While both methods were usually effective throughout these guy's careers, jabbing against Joe Frazier would probably not be as effective early on, as George's savage style was. What's more, George was a bit bigger than Sonny. In his prime, he was 6'3.5, and weighed 220, while Liston was 6'0", 213. Okay, not a huge difference but possibly enough for the 5'11", 205 pound Frazier to not get overwhelmed against Sonny as he did against George. Also, even though I don't question Sonny's ability to take a punch, I do question weather or not he ever faced a hitter with the power, lightening handspeed, punch frequency, and upper body movement of Joe Frazier.

I can't say for sure who'd take this one, but I can say one thing for a fact. Joe Frazier was better than anyone Sonny ever defeated in his 50 win career. The same cannot be said, however in reverse.

[Seamus]

That's right, I forgot. Liston beats everyone. At once. With one hand tied behind his back.

Or is it that Liston faced nowhere near the level of competition Frazier did and on that record are judgements passed.

I'll second what Mr. Magoo above stated so well, that no one know who wins against two ATG's, that Frazier is vastly under-rated despite a great resume, and lastly, that Liston is chronically over-rated. Even though most concede he is in consideration as a top-10 AT heavy, certain folks want to deify him.

[Shake]

I'd pick Liston by K.O around the 9th.

Joe would come straigt at Liston, and while his perpetual motion would serve him well, I feel Sonny had too good and too stiff a jab to not rattle Joe. Frazier routinely took punches getting inside, that was part of the job, and I simply don't see him taking Liston's jab + follow-up all night long.

It would be a great match.

[Nick Balsamo]

Sonny Liston by 4th round TKO.

Joe would get destroyed moving forward vs Sonny Liston. The jab would hurt him, the uppercuts and hooks would put him down. Bad matchup for Smoking Joe. Liston is too big, too strong, had good boxing skills and put some punches together very well for a big man.

Frazier isn't exactly a great dancer. He's a coming forward machine. He can do it only one way. So against a faster or bigger or stronger guy with explosive power, his chances aren't good. He was tailor made for guys like Foreman, Lewis, Liston, big guys with long range and great power.

Joe Frazier could fight on even terms with shorter punchers like him... Marciano, Dempsey, Tyson.

However he would have a better chances versus the likes of Ali, Holmes, Johnson, Tunney, Charles, putting pressure on them without the danger of being knocked.

[Muchmoore]

This fight is tough. Frazier definently gets dropped early and maybe multiple times. Liston was a big time puncher and his jab would stop Frazier in his tracks many times.

Theres two scenarios I see playing out, either Liston stops Frazier early, or Frazier is able to rally back, winning the mid to late rounds and winning by UD.

I would favor the latter. Frazier is able to outwork the slower Liston and win by UD after getting beat up the first 4 rounds.

[Muchmoore]

That's right, I forgot. Liston beats everyone. At once. With one hand tied behind his back.

Or is it that Liston faced nowhere near the level of competition Frazier did and on that record are judgements passed.

I'll second what Mr. Magoo above stated so well, that no one know who wins against two ATG's, that Frazier is vastly under-rated despite a great resume, and lastly, that Liston is chronically over-rated. Even though most concede he is in consideration as a top-10 AT heavy, certain folks want to deify him.

I agree, Frazier is often under rated because he was stopped by arguably the most powerful puncher in history. Frazier holds a win over a guy who made Liston quit and has the overall better resume. Liston's best win is over Floyd Patterson who is a good win but had a style that Liston would devour. Other than that, his resume consists of Machen, Folley, Williams as the best fighters who are all good fighters but fairly ordinary contenders. Liston is supposed to be this big, invincible monster but lost to Marty Marshall early in his career and struggled with Machen who was destroyed by Ingo.

[apollack]

As far as I can recall, the only two guys to drop Frazier were Foreman and Bonavena. He got up six times against Foreman and wasn't about to quit. He got off the deck twice early on to Bonavena and went on to outpoint him and win a decision. He won a 15 round decision over Bonavena in a championship fight. Bonavena could punch - I remember him landing a hook on Ali that staggered him badly. Guys like Quarry and Chuvalo never hurt Frazier, and guys like Ellis, Ali, Mathis, and Bugner never decked him either. That said, Foreman showed that a big, devastating puncher could take him out. I like Frazier as a fighter overall better than Liston, but that said, I think this is a very bad matchup for Joe, who would move right into Liston's power punching zone, and boy could Sonny punch. Keep in mind, the only guys to ever defeat or give Sonny trouble were quick boxer types. Outside was the way to beat Sonny, but Joe was an inside fighter.

[NickHudson]

I agree with this, I think it is a more sober analysis than some of the previous ones.

Foremans pummeling of Frazier is clear in all our minds, but it was THE performance of Foremans career - a truly staggering, awe-inspiring cumulative battering from a man who would become known as a destroyer over the course of 4 decades, felling generation after generation of HWs.

Foreman was a very hungry, deadly accurate, superbly conditioned wrecking machine on that night AND Frazier was off, both physically and mentally.

Its a stretch for me to say anyone else can KO1 or 2 a prime Frazier.

Wow, this is incredible! Seven out of seven respondents think Liston would just blow Frazier away. I would like to repeat, for about the hundredth time I've said it, that the Frazier who was blasted out by Foreman was a deteriorated, overweight and unfocused version and not the same fighter who had beaten Ali. Liston was not as aggressive and, in my opinion, not as powerful as Foreman, Frazier was considerably more durable than Patterson, and Foreman took two and five rounds to stop a marginally past-prime and semi-shot Frazier respectively. In particular, then, it baffles me that people are predicting a Liston one-round knockout here.
Now, I think a Liston stoppage is a real possibility, especially if he could take charge immediately and maintain it for a few rounds, but there would be at least a very live chance that the quicker, busier, better-conditioned, and much tougher Frazier could survive early and take over the fight as it progressed through the middle and later rounds.

[ChrisPontius]

Liston is about as big as Frazier; doesn't have the size advantage that Foreman enjoyed. I think Liston will quit on his stool in the 8th after he saw Frazier rise from an early knockdown and now keeps hitting him more and more often with that left hook.

[JIm Broughton]

Liston early or Joe late. Put a gun to my head and I'd say Liston early.

[Ted Stickles]

Liston wins this one he destroyed crouch fighter Paterson but i think Joe would last until the 2nd or 3rd

[yancey]

Frazier by either decision or late knockout.

I agree that Frazier most likely survives early and prevails, but I don't think Sonny Liston goes the distance with Frazier.

Not enough heart for Sonny. By the time the tide turned around the 5th round and those body shots started kicking in, the bully would start melting.

Prime Joe in 10.

[round15]

Liston would proably knock out the same Frazier who showed up weighing 214 lbs against Foreman in Jamaica. Frazier at or near his prime weight of 205 - 208 lbs would KO liston, probably inside 8 rounds IMO.

[teeto]

All the negativity towards Frazier is just madness here. Frazier in his prime coming at you rolling with everything coming at him is a nitemare. If Frazier could pin Liston on the ropes the fight is over, Liston would not want any part of that scenario and cant fight on the inside anywhere near as good as Joe. But I do think that the one punch that spells troublw for Frazier is the jab and Liston had one of the best in HW history and he could box (he was a box puncher). I pick Liston to win, I think his jab would bother Frazier and it could lead to a big right hand or an uppercut as Frazier comes in . Its a hard pick though because if Frazier can slip the jab and rush Liston the fight could be over fast. But I will pick the first scenario.

Also , someone said before that Liston would use his jab to box his way in , box his way into what? A left hook ? You dont box your way into Joe Frazier trying to make an opening , because if you do, you are boxing you way into the hospitall

[Hydraulix]

This is a good debate. My heart tells me Frazier would win it, but my mind says Liston would knock him out. I'll explain.

Sonny made quick work of Patterson, sure, but Patterson's bobbing and weaving made things difficult for a second. Frazier had better inside movement than Patterson, and would hurt Liston with crushing left hook counters. He'd cut off the ring, slip the jab, and pressure Sonny constantly. I don't think Liston ever dealt with a pressure fighter like Frazier, and knowing his reputation for quitting when he was losing, I see a KO from Smokin Joe.

On the other hand, if Sonny fought smart and struck the crouching Frazier with uppercuts, I see him getting a victory. I think Frazier would avoid the heavy Sonny Liston jab by bobbing and weaving, but all Sonny needs are powerful uppercuts to turn the tide in his favor, and then he'd destroy Frazier the same way he did Patterson.

I'm on the fence with this one. I see either one of the above outcomes occuring for this fight.

[OBCboxer]

I've commented on this fight so many times before so I'll save my breath. Frazier stops Liston late but is dropped early in an all out war.