Tyson - Your Ranking?

[Russell]

Some of his "lesser" wins get glossed over a little too much for my liking. Like two wins a piece over both Ruddock and Bruno.

So, where do you rank him?

[housecat]

Bottom of the top 20.

[SuzieQ49]

# 6 heavyweight of all time. His 1980s title reign was much more impressive than holmes IMO, unfication all 3(holmes didnt unify one belt), more dominance, beat better opposition, didnt avoid fighters during reign....


I am very impressed with tysons wins against ruddock, tucker, thomas, tubbs, spinx, berbick, and his knockout over holmes who never got stopped

[Sonny's jab]

He's not among the elite greats, IMO.

Terrific puncher, excellent KO artist, phenomenal talent, but not a great fighter in the truest sense.

I dont really do lists but housecat's estimation sounds reasonable.

[Marciano Frazier]

I consider him to belong in the 12th-13th spot amongst the greatest heavyweights of the gloved era. More or less, he was an absolutely monstrous talent and had a brilliant run in the late '80s, but his subsequent derailing at the hands of Douglas and unceremonious fall from grace prevent him entry into the top 10.

[Russell]

I consider him to belong in the 12th-13th spot amongst the greatest heavyweights of the gloved era. More or less, he was an absolutely monstrous talent and had a brilliant run in the late '80s, but his subsequent derailing at the hands of Douglas and unceremonious fall from grace prevent him entry into the top 10.

But how late do you consider that fall to of occured?

Even post Douglas he beat Ruddock twice, and then post prison beat Bruno faster than he did years previously.

He only really became a shot fighter post Lennox.

[fists of fury]

I'd be shocked to find him outside the top 15, let's put it like that. My personal bias would have him inside the top 10.

[dmt]

probably top 10

[ripcity]

#5 at Heavyweight.

[Russell]

#5 at Heavyweight.
Who's above him? Usual suspects?

[ripcity]

Who's above him? Usual suspects?
Ali, Louis, Marciano and Lewis.

[Russell]

Ah, you rank Lewis pretty highly.

Why, out of curiosity?

[Holmes' Jab]

Solid Top 10. His impressive and highly devestating first title reign seals his place there, and despite much of what came after he did return after prison and picked up a few belts looking pretty impressive in doing so. I have him at #8.

You could perhaps put foward an argument to put him as high as #6, whilst outside the Top 15 is definitely too low.

[McGrain]

8

[Holmes' Jab]

8


Me too as I've mentioned. I've actually had him as high as #6 in the past but he's been swapped places with Liston this past good while. My opinion of Liston just keeps going up. Frazier nearly always is my #7: all three are close together overall.

[Russell]

I'd put Frazier ahead of Liston, honestly.

Beating an unbeaten Ali as as close to his prime as he was beaten has to count for something, considering how spectacularly Liston failed there.

[McGrain]

Me too as I've mentioned. I've actually had him as high as #6 in the past but he's been swapped places with Liston this past good while. My opinion of Liston just keeps going up. Frazier nearly always is my #7: all three are close together overall.

8 is actually the highest i've had him - i've had him as low as 13, but he's just worked his way up, much as Liston has for you. I feel pretty happy with where I have him now.

[Russell]

I feel Liston's resume is thinner than Frazier's or even Tyson's, but that's just me.

I feel his career really hinges on chinny damned near middleweight charging at him trying to prove something (To whom I have zero idea) and brutally stopping him twice.

But that's just me.

[Mendoza]

Some of his "lesser" wins get glossed over a little too much for my liking. Like two wins a piece over both Ruddock and Bruno.

So, where do you rank him?

#1 all time heavy vs tomato cans, trial horses, journeyman, and fringe contenders. Tyson could blow them out better than ayone.

#11-13 in terms of legacy and head to head results. On an all time list, there are no cream puffs, and Tyson lost his biggest legacy fights.

[Cruiser1]

I judge Tyson mainly on his fights before prison so I have him at a solid #9 all-time. He impressively cleaned out the heavyweight division, unified the belts, and stopped just about all of his opponents in his title defenses (Tucker and Smith went the route). In other words, he got better as he went on. If you're gonna argue that he didn't have the longevity that many ATGs have you must take into consideration the fact that guys with Tyson's dimensions don't last long.

[mr. magoo]

I think he's more deserving of a top spot than a lot of people give him credit for. At one point, he was regularly being overrated, but as time goes on, he seems to be sold short. He was the youngest heavyweight champ in history, he unified every title, was unbeaten in his first 37 fights, had 9 title defenses, scored one of the earliest knockouts of another all time great and regained two thirds of the title after spending 4 years in prison. Of course, I think he was strategically steared into those later title fights, but still.

Tyson probably belong around 5-8.

[fadeintobolivia]

TOP 8-10 all time Heavyweight.

[PhillyPhan69]

I consider him to belong in the 12th-13th spot amongst the greatest heavyweights of the gloved era. More or less, he was an absolutely monstrous talent and had a brilliant run in the late '80s, but his subsequent derailing at the hands of Douglas and unceremonious fall from grace prevent him entry into the top 10.

Sounds about right...I rank him 13

[ChrisPontius]

#1 all time heavy vs tomato cans, trial horses, journeyman, and fringe contenders. Tyson could blow them out better than ayone.

#11-13 in terms of legacy and head to head results. On an all time list, there are no cream puffs, and Tyson lost his biggest legacy fights.

I disagree with that bold notion. Spinks was the linear champ and unbeaten. Just because it took him only 91 seconds doesn't mean that that isn't a legacy fight.

Sonny Liston had a legacy fight against a chinny, tiny heavyweight that came right at him. Should we, for that reason discard that as a "legacy" fight? What about Dempsey's win over a rusty, old and unskilled Willard? What about Marciano's win over a 37 year old Walcott? What about Lewis' win over a 36 year old Holyfield?

Bottomline is that not everyone can have a legacy fight a la Frazier vs Ali I.


The Holmes fight was very significant as well. Almost everyone thought Holmes had beaten Spinks in the rematch, which would still make him the linear champion. Tyson blew him away in a fashion that no one did, even when he continued in his 40's.



The Tyson vs Lewis fight is indeed a legacy fight he lost.


What about the Holyfield fight?

I think the only reason everyone sees this as a legacy fight is because he lost it. Had he knocked out Holyfield, then Holyfield would've been a washed up cruiserweight, having lost 2 out of 3 with Bowe and recently looked terrible against Moorer as well as Czyz.

Same with the Douglas fight.

[Cruiser1]

Mike Tyson has made some off-the-wall statements in his day and alot of the time I would have no idea what he was getting at. Other times he would say profound things and come across as very introspective. One of the statements that Mike Tyson made that has stuck out for me is something he said after the McBride fight. He said "don't feel bad for me, my career ended in 1990."

Not only was that statement long overdue but it's pretty tough to refute.

[Cruiser1]

#1 all time heavy vs tomato cans, trial horses, journeyman, and fringe contenders. Tyson could blow them out better than ayone.

#11-13 in terms of legacy and head to head results. On an all time list, there are no cream puffs, and Tyson lost his biggest legacy fights.

Tyson beat a lot of solid fighters and his "legacy fights" came well after his prime. Yeah, the heavyweight division was rather barren in the 80's but let's not forget that Tyson dispatched his opponents emphatically whereas alot of ATG's (in any weight class) have fought down to the level of opposition. Tyson never did that. Hell, I love Evander but he was guilty of fighting down to the opposition a few times. Not tyson though. He got u out of there quickly.

[godking]

Some of his "lesser" wins get glossed over a little too much for my liking. Like two wins a piece over both Ruddock and Bruno.

So, where do you rank him?lower top ten there is no logical argument that you can make for keeping Tyson oujt of the top 10

[SuzieQ49]

I feel Liston's resume is thinner than Frazier's or even Tyson's, but that's just me.

I feel his career really hinges on chinny damned near middleweight charging at him trying to prove something (To whom I have zero idea) and brutally stopping him twice.

But that's just me.


Eddie Machen, Floyd Patterson 2x, Zora Folley, Cleveland Williams 2x, Johnny Summerlin 2x, Nino Valdez, Mike Dejohn, Wayne Bethea. Thats a great resume.......also take note outside of nino valdez, liston beat all these men at the top of there games.

I rank liston over frazier because head to head, and because liston dominated his era more than frazier did, and liston beat better punchers.

[mr. magoo]

=SuzieQ49]Eddie Machen, Floyd Patterson 2x, Zora Folley, Cleveland Williams 2x, Johnny Summerlin 2x, Nino Valdez, Mike Dejohn, Wayne Bethea. Thats a great resume.......also take note outside of nino valdez, liston beat all these men at the top of there games.


You listed the names of 8 men, and counted some of them twice.

Frazier defeated:

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Jimmy Ellis
3. Jerry Quarry
4. Buster Mathis
5. George Chuvalo
6. Oscar Bonavena
7. Eddie Machen
8. Doug Jones
9. Joe Bugner
10. Bob Foster

Notice that I didn't even count some of them twice as you did, and nor did I include some of his defenses against guys like Ramos, Stander, or Zyglewicz, only because I didn't think they were very good, but they were contenders nonethless.

Conclusion: Frazier defeated a larger list of ranked fighters in only 32 victories than Liston did in 50. Additionally, his win over Muhammad Ali was by far better than Sonny ever had. Additionally, he has a better record in world title fights, and was a gold medalist in the olympics. he lost to only two men who were both concensus top 10 greats.

Frazier's resume is better.

[SuzieQ49]

and was a gold medalist in the olympics

Liston never got the chance. Liston did defeat the olympic champion 6'4 220lb Ed Sanders with far viewer fights under his belt than Frazier. Also take note if not for Buster Mathis injury, frazier doesnt even QUALIFY for the olympics.

Frazier defeated:

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Jimmy Ellis
3. Jerry Quarry
4. Buster Mathis
5. George Chuvalo
6. Oscar Bonavena
7. Eddie Machen
8. Doug Jones
9. Joe Bugner
10. Bob Foster






No doubt frazier had a great resume, but the machen frazier defeated was nowhere near the machen liston defeated. Also take note about the lack of punchers frazier defeated. The only skilled puncher frazier fought was foreman and he got wrecked. Liston fought Williams twice and Nino Valdez and demolished them both.


Notice that I didn't even count some of them twice as you did, and nor did I include some of his defenses against guys like Ramos, Stander, or Zyglewicz, only because I didn't think they were very good, but they were contenders nonethless.



Outside of the Muhammad Ali win, if you compare frazier and listons resumes, liston defeats frazier. Its the Ali win that puts it on par.


victories than Liston did in 50. Additionally, his win over Muhammad Ali was by far better than Sonny ever had. Additionally, he has a better record in world title fights, and was a gold medalist in the olympics. he lost to only two men who were both concensus top 10 greats.


In fairness, Frazier got to face ali when frazier was at the absolute peak of his powers. When Liston faced Ali, he was considerably on the decline physically and mentally. Also take note that Frazier was blown away from foreman, a fighter who was very similiar to liston in terms of size, power, strength.

Additionally, he has a better record in world title fights,


Liston already cleaned out his division pre title.






Judgind resumes isnt the only criteria in my book. In terms of resume frazier is on par with liston. Its listons head to head ability, more dominance of his era in his prime, and the fact he defeated skilled punchers that separate him from frazier in my view. Interesting how Fraziers management wouldnt even throw frazier in vs a very old liston.

[mr. magoo]

[quote=SuzieQ49]Liston never got the chance. Liston did defeat the olympic champion 6'4 220lb Ed Sanders with far viewer fights under his belt than Frazier. Also take note if not for Buster Mathis injury, frazier doesnt even QUALIFY for the olympics.

I don't hold it against Liston for not having as great or extensive of an amateur career, but we shouldn't take it away from Frazier either. Winning the gold is a huge accomplishment and one that belongs in the books for Joe. As for him getting his chance due to Mathis being injured, well thats all part of the game, and at least Frazier was able to make the best of the opportunity. Not to mention. He took care of Mathis in the pros.




No doubt frazier had a great resume, but the machen frazier defeated was nowhere near the machen liston defeated. Also take note about the lack of punchers frazier defeated. The only skilled puncher frazier fought was foreman and he got wrecked. Liston fought Williams twice and Nino Valdez and demolished them both.


In all fairness, Liston never faced a puncher of Foreman's level either, so to say that Frazier got destroyed by the only puncher he ever faced, whereas Liston didn't is somewhat misleading. Also, you pointed out that Frazier defeated a washed up Machen, but Joe had only 12 fights when he faced him, as opposed to Liston who was a 30-1 contender. While Liston beat a better version of Machen, he was also at a more advanced phase of his career, so the difference shouldn't be considered so vast. Also, Frazier is not the only one guilty of fighting an aging foe here. Liston's win over Nino Valdez was at or near the end of Valdez's career.





Outside of the Muhammad Ali win, if you compare frazier and listons resumes, liston defeats frazier. Its the Ali win that puts it on par.



How so? Frazier defeated more fighters who were ranked and in a lesser number of fights. I'm also not going to be so easily convinced that Wayne Bethea, Mike Dejohn, Eddie Machen, Cleveland Williams, Jimmy Summerlin or an aging Valdez were better than Jerry Quarry, Jimmy Ellis, Goerge Chuvalo, Bob Foster or Oscar Bonavena. You may think they were, but thats leaning more towards opinion rather than fact.



In fairness, Frazier got to face ali when frazier was at the absolute peak of his powers. When Liston faced Ali, he was considerably on the decline physically and mentally.

True, but he was heavily favored to win that fight, and was coming off the best wins of his career, albeit pretty far apart but still. It also wasn't like he gave Ali hell for a declining fighter. He was for the most part dominated, and by a rather inexperienced Ali who was still a work in progress.



Also take note that Frazier was blown away from foreman, a fighter who was very similiar to liston in terms of size, power, strength.



Now you're getting back into head to head assumptions by implying that just because Foreman shared similarities with Liston, that it automatically means that the result would be the same. This criteria can't be used when issuing ratings to fighters. Fantasy matchups are inconclusive, and have nothing to do with what fighters actually accomplished. Besides, even actual head to head matchups which DID OCCUR, do not necessarily mean that one fighter should be rated over another. Do you rate Thomas Hearns lower than Iran Barkley, because Barkley beat him twice? Liston and Frazier are two men who never even met, yet you're rating Liston higher soley on the basis that you think he'd beat him.

Liston already cleaned out his division pre title.


Yes, but wins in world title fights is still another statistic that needs to be looked at. If the stat meant nothing, then Joe Louis winning 25 title defenses is worthless.







Judgind resumes isnt the only criteria in my book. In terms of resume frazier is on par with liston. Its listons head to head ability, more dominance of his era in his prime, and the fact he defeated skilled punchers that separate him from frazier in my view. Interesting how Fraziers management wouldnt even throw frazier in vs a very old liston


With all due respect, this is selective criteria that you're using. The very best fighters in the heavweight division between 1968-1973 were not big punchers. Frazier cleaned out his divsion by beating Ali, Ellis, Mathis,Quarry, Bonavena, and Chuvalo. And by the way, Quarry, bonavena and Chuvalo were not exactly feather fisted. The only two punchers that you listed for Liston were a washed up Valdez, and Williams who had 58 KO's in 78 wins, plus was limited in other areas. Saying that Frazier couldn't compete against punchers just because he was beaten by one of the greatest sluggers of all time is not a well balanced view. I also don't think that Liston's reign was more dominant outside of the overhyped fear factor that the media was giving him.

[Punisher33]

I got Tyson at 8 or 9, his talent was good enough to be an easy top 3, but his 3 and half year jail stint, and no Kevin Rooney in his corner, took away so many years of Tyson's prime, which would of probably lasted another 5 years, followed by another good 5 years where he could of gave anyone a tough fight in the ring, if everything went the way it should of, we would now be having discussions on wether Tyson's career was good enough to put him at one, instead of wether or not we should even put him in the top 10.

[Vanboxingfan]

I personally have Tyson in somewhere just outside top 10, say 11-13th, but he sometimes squeaks into my top 10, just not at the moment. I don't think he belongs in the top 8 given his short time at the top, regardless of how impressive it was.

[Musashi]

Currently ranking him 14th all-time, but I change my mind a great deal. However, I usually place him in the mid-teens.

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Johnson
4. Holmes
5. Foreman
6. Marciano
7. Frazier
8. Lewis
9. Holyfield
10. Liston
11. Tunney
12. Dempsey
13. Langford
14. Tyson
15. Jeffries
16. Patterson
17. Charles
18. Walcott
19. Schmeling
20. Wills

[SuzieQ49]

I don't hold it against Liston for not having as great or extensive of an amateur career, but we shouldn't take it away from Frazier either. Winning the gold is a huge accomplishment and one that belongs in the books for Joe. As for him getting his chance due to Mathis being injured, well thats all part of the game, and at least Frazier was able to make the best of the opportunity. Not to mention. He took care of Mathis in the pros.


Agree on all acounts. It should be mentioned mathis gave him a real tough time in the pros.



In all fairness, Liston never faced a puncher of Foreman's level either, so to say that Frazier got destroyed by the only puncher he ever faced, whereas Liston didn't is somewhat misleading

I could make a strong case Cleveland Williams was on par with Foreman in terms of power, and Williams certainly had faster hands than George.

Also, you pointed out that Frazier defeated a washed up Machen, but Joe had only 12 fights when he faced him, as opposed to Liston who was a 30-1 contender. While Liston beat a better version of Machen, he was also at a more advanced phase of his career, so the difference shouldn't be considered so vast. Also, Frazier is not the only one guilty of fighting an aging foe here. Liston's win over Nino Valdez was at or near the end of Valdez's career.



Machen was a boxer, while Valdez was a puncher.....Machen rely's most on reflexes speed so at his advanced age and ring tear these left him by 1967, Valdez mostly relied on brute strength, power, and jab. These 3 traits are the last thing to leave an aged fighter. I think Valdez was the more live fighter than machen was at these points in there career. Also Valdez was ranked # 2 heavyweight contender by Ring Magazine in 1959(the same year he fought liston), and had his wins over contenders wayne bethea, pat mccmurty, comefrom behind knockout of contender harold johnson, johnny summerlin the year before he fought liston proves he was a more dangerous fighter than eddie was in 1967, eddie had not been ranked and had not defeated anyone of note and he was not a puncher. I have a quote on quote from Nino Valdez that claims "I could still hit very hard when I fought Liston". Power is always the last thing to leave a fighter.





How so? Frazier defeated more fighters who were ranked and in a lesser number of fights. I'm also not going to be so easily convinced that Wayne Bethea, Mike Dejohn, Eddie Machen, Cleveland Williams, Jimmy Summerlin or an aging Valdez were better than Jerry Quarry, Jimmy Ellis, Goerge Chuvalo, Bob Foster or Oscar Bonavena. You may think they were, but thats leaning more towards opinion rather than fact.

Ring Magazine has a very flawed manipulated system for ranking fighters. For example Cleveland Williams was not rated when liston beat him, but you cant honestly look at the TV screen of williams fights and not tell me he wasnt one of the 5 best contenders in the world at the time. There are many other examples like this, especially in the 1940s where top black contenders were avoided. You claimed Valdez was washed up, but technically he was ranked # 2 by Ring Magazine when he fought liston in 1959 despite suffering knockout loss his previous fight to obscure fighter. Do we go by yearly ratings or monthly issues? Exactley how many rated fighters did frazier beat?


You have the right of opinion to believe fraziers opposition was better. I tend to believe Williams,Folley and Machen at there best were better fighters than Ellis, Quarry, Bonavena




I have to go ill finish more later........

[ChrisPontius]

Bethea was a journeyman for 99% of his career. So was Summerlin.

Just the fact that you need to mention these guys shows how thin Liston's resume really is.


Also, the Summerlin fights were close and perhaps should've gone the other way. Here is a report from Ring Magazine, 1954, Jack Weine:

"Every once in a while you watch a fight that after the official decision is announced you can't help but feel tht perhaps some of the advance publicity had swayed the arbiters. Such was the case when Johnny Summerlin, 193, spotted his highly billed foe, Charles "Sonny" Liston 13 lbs and lost a most puzzling verdict. The bout itself was as torrid as any seen here for several years. But by having scored more often with the cleaner and more effective
punches, veteran observers were 100 % in favor of Summerlin."

The rematch was controversial as well.

His fight with Eddie Machen was also very close.


Williams was good but not THAT good. He flopped often when he stepped up. Should we include Manuel Ramos because he had a high KO percentage before Frazier destroyed him in 2 rounds?

[MagnificentMatt]

Head to Head hes top 3, and may be number 1..

Overall? Id say 8-10

[brownpimp88]

Tyson should always rank in the lower end of the top 10. Those that say hes not top 10 are underrating him, those that have him top 5 are overrating him.

[SuzieQ49]

Bethea was a journeyman for 99% of his career. So was Summerlin.

I didn't know Journeyman were classified as fighters who were in the RING Magazine top 10 heavyweight rankings in 3 different years, and fighters who constantly fought on par with top contenders like Bethea did. Betha was no journeyman, he was no world beater. He was your classic fringe contender. Bethea was 6'0 205lb very strong and one of the most durable fighters of that era, he had a style that was a bit of a spoiler. Take note he took a prime Zora Folley too two split decisions, Folley was a master boxer and had a top Jab, so boxing two close fights on the cards with a man of folleys talent and jab are hard to do. He also took a powerful big heavyweight with a top jab like Nino Valdez too a one point split decision, and gave harold johnson and Machen some trouble. Beat Young Jack Johnson and Ernie Terell He got flattened by an absolute peak liston in 58 seconds, but this points more to Listons greatness than Bethea's lack of ability/durability. I think this win is equivalent to say lennox lewis's win over Zelkjo Mavoric. Both weren't the most talented fighters out there, but both were very strong and , marginally skilled and had a spoiler type style.



6'1 195lb Johnny Summerlin was no journeyman, certainly not talent wise. I had a boxing historian send me mail about johnny Summerlin. The newspaper reports describe Summerlin has having A level talent. He was viewed as one of the better boxers of that era. At one point Summerlin went on a hot streak racking up wins over contenders Young Jack Johnson, Talented Harold Carter, and Young Zora Folley by stoppage. He earned a spot in the Ring Magazine top 10 rankings. He was viewed as a world class fighter. However following the death of his favorite sparring partner and friend in 1956, he was never the same......The floor fell out from under him and he was never the same and his career spinned off into journeyman status. But when Summerlin was fresh and young in the mid 1950s, He had the skills to to threaten Marciano and Floyd. He gave a Green but Still Powerful Liston big problems.
I got the impression from the boxing historian summerlin is an underappreciated fighter of that era. I have a nice picture of john, excellent physique.


Also, the Summerlin fights were close and perhaps should've gone the other way. Here is a report from Ring Magazine, 1954, Jack Weine:

"Every once in a while you watch a fight that after the official decision is announced you can't help but feel tht perhaps some of the advance publicity had swayed the arbiters. Such was the case when Johnny Summerlin, 193, spotted his highly billed foe, Charles "Sonny" Liston 13 lbs and lost a most puzzling verdict. The bout itself was as torrid as any seen here for several years. But by having scored more often with the cleaner and more effective
punches, veteran observers were 100 % in favor of Summerlin."



I agree, Summerlin was a tremendous fighter, he was 19-1 and within months would emerge into the top 10 rankings. The fact a Liston in his 5th professional fight fought this well against a fighter of this caliber is a testament to listons greatness. What HW champion in there 5th pro fight was taking on a fighter of Johnny Summerlin calbre? certainly not lennox lewis. Fight reports are mixed on the Liston-Summerlin bouts. One report read Listons jab was the difference in the 2nd fight. Either way, coming out with 2 wins over summerlin with less than 10 pro bouts under your belt is highly impressive.

His fight with Eddie Machen was also very close.



If winning at least 9 out of the 12 rounds vs A master ring technician Like Eddie is what you call close, I am dieing to hear how close you think Lennox decision with 36 year old Ray Mercer was. Your picking at straws here with the machen critisism. Every great fighter has to show the ability to go the distance with a world class fighter in hard paced rounds, This fight to me is a testament to listons legacy because he shows super stamina for a man his size, and the ability to transition and outbox and outjab top contenders rather than just go for the knockout. If Liston knocked everyone out, then you would critisze listons inability to fight 12 hard rounds.

[SuzieQ49]

Williams was good but not THAT good. He flopped often when he stepped up. Should we include Manuel Ramos because he had a high KO percentage before Frazier destroyed him in 2 rounds?


What is your defintion of Flopped? I been recently watching some Ernie Terell fights on Film, he is a bit underated. He was 6'6 200lb and had a very crisp long effective Jab, good boxing skills, Solid movement for 6'6, and a very hard style to deal with. He was defintley one of the best contenders of the 1960s.......Williams was the only fighter ever to knockout Terell anywhere near his prime. he proved in the rematch it was no fluke by flooring and nearly finishing off terell in the 2nd round before boxing on even terms with ernie and losing a controversial split decision.

Eddie Machen viewed as one of the more skilled heavyweight contenders of all time, only managed a draw vs Williams. Normanlly when a slugger faces a top boxer Like Lyle did vs Young, They get embarrased.......but not in the case with Cleveland.

Did he flop against sonny? he Battered sonny in the 1st round in both fights breaking his nose......liston then took over and floored cleveland mutiple times cleveland refused to stay down both times. Is this flopping? I think its more of a classic Slugger vs Slugger match where you know the bout will end in the first 5 rounds, Williams more than held his own and certainly earned listons respect, liston spoke very highly of williams. Williams argueably gave liston his toughest fights. He was the only fighter ever to take the fight to liston and have success.


He fought alot of former contenders/ fringe contenders and he did was he was supposed to do with them.......he dominated them. Billy Daniels was a 6'4 ranked contender who williams fought, Daniels looked pretty good with ali he fought in a classic boxerpuncher style with solid funadementals on defense, he lacked handspeed and top power. but he was a decent fighter.


What separetes Cleveland Williams vs other top sluggers like shavers, lyle, is his far superior handspeed and his ability to deal with boxers much better.

[MrMagic]

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Holmes
4. Marciano
5. Dempsey
6. Lewis
7. Foreman
8. Tyson (he's interchangable with Holyfield, but he dominated the scene, Evander did not dominate)
9. Holyfield
10. Johnson

[SuzieQ49]

Also after your adress my points I have a question.........


How do you regard Sonny Listons win over Mike Dejohn?

Dejohn was top 10 ranked contender, 6'3 205lb and had a reputation as hard puncher, specificully his devastating Left Hook. George Chuvalo the king of the iron chin regarded Dejohns left hook as the hardest punch he ever recieved. Dejohn Vs Miteff is out there on film, Supposedly quite the impressive one punch KO over the unbeaten Miteff. Although I highly question Dejohns talent/skill level, There no denying this ranks as a win over a Big Puncher. One fight report once posted here remarked about Liston walking through some of Dejohns biggest punches en route to a dominating knockout win. Rumor on Cyberboxing is this fight is on film.

As far as wins over big punchers, I think listons wins over Big Cat Williams, and Aging nino valdez were better ones.

[mr. magoo]

Also after your adress my points I have a question.........


How do you regard Sonny Listons win over Mike Dejohn?

Dejohn was top 10 ranked contender, 6'3 205lb and had a reputation as hard puncher, specificully his devastating Left Hook. George Chuvalo the king of the iron chin regarded Dejohns left hook as the hardest punch he ever recieved. Dejohn Vs Miteff is out there on film, Supposedly quite the impressive one punch KO over the unbeaten Miteff. Although I highly question Dejohns talent/skill level, There no denying this ranks as a win over a Big Puncher. One fight report once posted here remarked about Liston walking through some of Dejohns biggest punches en route to a dominating knockout win. Rumor on Cyberboxing is this fight is on film.

As far as wins over big punchers, I think listons wins over Big Cat Williams, and Aging nino valdez were better ones.

Question about the Dejohn testimony,

Did Chuvalo make his statement about Dejohn hitting him with the hardest shot he ever recieved come at the very end of his career, or BEFORE he faced Foreman and Frazier? Frankly, I have my doubts. Fighters say shit like that all the time. Dejohn certainly wasn't able to pound him to a stoppage, and in fact lost that bout.

[SuzieQ49]

It was after his career. he said the hardest hitters he ever faced were foreman and dejohn.

[Longhhorn71]

Me too as I've mentioned. I've actually had him as high as #6 in the past but he's been swapped places with Liston this past good while. My opinion of Liston just keeps going up. Frazier nearly always is my #7: all three are close together overall.

I concur....but all the Top 10 could beat each other if one fighter's game is down, and the other guy's is up on a particular nite.

[ironchamp]

I have him at #7

When you take into account his reign at the top, the number of ranked contenters that he beat, its a fair ranking.

[ChrisPontius]

I didn't know Journeyman were classified as fighters who were in the RING Magazine top 10 heavyweight rankings in 3 different years, and fighters who constantly fought on par with top contenders like Bethea did. Betha was no journeyman, he was no world beater. He was your classic fringe contender. Bethea was 6'0 205lb very strong and one of the most durable fighters of that era, he had a style that was a bit of a spoiler. Take note he took a prime Zora Folley too two split decisions, Folley was a master boxer and had a top Jab, so boxing two close fights on the cards with a man of folleys talent and jab are hard to do. He also took a powerful big heavyweight with a top jab like Nino Valdez too a one point split decision, and gave harold johnson and Machen some trouble. Beat Young Jack Johnson and Ernie Terell He got flattened by an absolute peak liston in 58 seconds, but this points more to Listons greatness than Bethea's lack of ability/durability. I think this win is equivalent to say lennox lewis's win over Zelkjo Mavoric. Both weren't the most talented fighters out there, but both were very strong and , marginally skilled and had a spoiler type style.


Point is that Mavrovic is rarely mentioned when it comes to Lewis' resume.
Mason is a bit more accomplished than Summerlin, but again he is hardly mentioned for Lewis and Lewis shut him out and stopped him while the Summerlin fights could arguably have been losses.







If winning at least 9 out of the 12 rounds vs A master ring technician Like Eddie is what you call close, I am dieing to hear how close you think Lennox decision with 36 year old Ray Mercer was. Your picking at straws here with the machen critisism. Every great fighter has to show the ability to go the distance with a world class fighter in hard paced rounds, This fight to me is a testament to listons legacy because he shows super stamina for a man his size, and the ability to transition and outbox and outjab top contenders rather than just go for the knockout. If Liston knocked everyone out, then you would critisze listons inability to fight 12 hard rounds.


How is that picking straws? I never denied that the Mercer fight is close and one in which Lewis fought a stupid strategy. With the three points deducted, Liston could've easily lost a decision.

But of course he had mob in his corner, seeing him through Don King like decisions against Summerlin I & II, Machen, etc. Couldn't help him when he quit on his stool obviously.

[SuzieQ49]

- I actually ordered a Summerlin fight on film so I will finally get to see if he is top talent or not, but I defintley rate the listons wins over summerlin as good ones, and Summerlin had quite the reputation as top talent.

If the mob really was controlling liston, They never would have thrown him in against 19-1 top heavyweight talent Prospect like Johnny Summerlin in his 5th pro fight, nor had him scheduled to take on hall of famer harold johnson in his 10th pro fight(which harold backed out on 4 days before the fight). Liston was one of the least protected heavyweight champions of all time. He was run by the mob, but they knew he was so good that they did not need to protect him.



Thanx for the discussion Chris, always enjoy it with you. can you answer my dejohn question?

[ChrisPontius]

Thanx for the discussion Chris, always enjoy it with you. can you answer my dejohn question?
Likewise SQ, i don't think i've ever agreed with you, but it makes for good topics. :yep


I think the DeJohn win may well be Liston's best after Patterson. I don't think Mike got back to contender status after Liston beat him, but he was in the lower end of the top10 for two succesive years, that should count for something.

My guess is he was a bit of Grant-esque in that he couldn't succesfully recover from his first loss, which like Grant, was probably pretty brutal. I've never seen him on film, though.

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Liston was certainly fighting some big names early on, though as mentioned before, he did seem to get the nod in close fights and he was widely seen as the prospect, Summerlin was expected to lose.

[SuzieQ49]

Likewise SQ, i don't think i've ever agreed with you,

Really? I think we tend to agree on a lot of subjects like tyson, tunnets heavyweight resume, walcott fighting alot of punchers, Rocky Marciano, It seems the only fighter we disagree on is Sonny Liston.

[SuzieQ49]

Thanx for the photo, is it just me or does Dejohn look excessivley tall? He is listed as 6'3 but looks taller.

[Sonny's jab]

Thanx for the photo, is it just me or does Dejohn look excessivley tall? He is listed as 6'3 but looks taller.

I think Chuvalo describes DeJohn as 6'5, 6'6 in a documentary I've got. I must admit he does look that tall, and he looks tall and slim like Ernie Terrell.

[guilalah]

Top 15, maybe top 10, not top 5.

[guncho]

top 10

[Bokaj]

The only ones I would definitely rank above him is Ali, Louis, Holmes, Marciano, Johnson and Lewis, so somewhere 7-10. Frazier and Foreman both had one ATG scalp and Foreman also had a very impressive come-back, but Tyson's title reign was far better than any one of Foreman's and somewhat better or on par with Frazier's. Tyson also had some good wins in his come-back. For me it's very hard to separate Tyson, Frazier, Foreman and Liston.

[ChrisPontius]

Hard to judge from the photo whether he's 6'3, 6'5 or anything in between. He is closest to the camera (which has an upward angle), so that changes the perspective a bit. He does have a pretty thick neck.