Liston, Duran and Tyson - Quit Jobs, how do you judge them ?

[Sonny's jab]

1964 - Liston goes out like a goddamn no-good chump after six rounds of not particularly gruelling boxing against Cassius Clay. Says his shoulder hurts.

1965 - Liston goes down from a seemingly moderate punch against Muhammad Ali. In the confusion that follows, the fight is stopped. Some people claim Liston was looking for a way out. Like a lazy low-down yellow bellied dog.

1980 - In a rematch with Sugar Ray Leonard, a man he's already beaten, Roberto Duran turns away and quits in the middle of the 8th round. A pathetic sight, he just ups and quits like a good-for-nothing gutless bum. Claims stomach cramps.

1997 - In a rematch with Evander Holyfield, Mike Tyson takes the punk's way out of a fight with a man he knows can kick his ass. Tyson bites like a girl, and after a warning bites again to get disqualified. He cries like a baby.

How do you judge these actions ? How should we view these instances of pathetic cowardice ?
Are they to be ignored as bizarre anomolies ?
Or should the cowards have to stand up like men and get judged on their unmanly behaviour ?
Does it impact on where you think these quitters stand againsts the true greats of the sport ?

Were any of the great fighters guilty of the same sort of behaviour ?

(I will add that Duran quit later on in a 1990s fight, and Tyson tried to get himself disqualified against Kevin McBride before quitting in his last fight.)

[ChrisPontius]

It negatively affects their ranking, obviously. But i don't think it necessarily disqualifies them from being a great fighter or something.

[Sonny's jab]

I agree. I read that even the great Sam Langford quit, against Fred Fulton for example.
But I haven't seen the fight, and it's obviously excusable to quit if you're getting a bad beating.

I think it's true that fighters might quit when they are out-of-shape, when things go bad and they just know they are not fit enough to do what they naturally would do. I can relate to that to some extent. Qawi did that against Foreman, Tillis used to do it when he wasn't in great shape. I guess the first Liston-Clay fight might be a case of the same, and Duran-Leonard 2. Tyson was in good shape for Holyfield 2, that was just fear and frustration I guess.

[mr. magoo]

=Sonny's jab]1964 - Liston goes out like a goddamn no-good chump after six rounds of not particularly gruelling boxing against Cassius Clay. Says his shoulder hurts.


I don't know if this was a quit job. It might have been, but Sonny was getting beat up pretty bad in there, and maybe he had a truly injured shoulder. Who knows?



1965 - Liston goes down from a seemingly moderate punch against Muhammad Ali. In the confusion that follows, the fight is stopped. Some people claim Liston was looking for a way out. Like a lazy low-down yellow bellied dog.


Could have been a fix.


1980 - In a rematch with Sugar Ray Leonard, a man he's already beaten, Roberto Duran turns away and quits in the middle of the 8th round. A pathetic sight, he just ups and quits like a good-for-nothing gutless bum. Claims stomach cramps.



Duran was losing that fight badly, and if he had a flu bug or something else, I imagine that it would have looked like an uphill battle going 15 rounds. Stilll, I give Ray credit for the win, but I'm not sure what Duran's reasons were for retiring.



1997 - In a rematch with Evander Holyfield, Mike Tyson takes the punk's way out of a fight with a man he knows can kick his ass. Tyson bites like a girl, and after a warning bites again to get disqualified. He cries like a baby.



Tyson was a nutcase, and claimed that Holyfield was head butting him. Who knows what he thought.


How do you judge these actions ? How should we view these instances of pathetic cowardice ?


Are they to be ignored as bizarre anomolies ?


NO

Or should the cowards have to stand up like men and get judged on their unmanly behaviour ?


Well, they have already been questioned many times.


Does it impact on where you think these quitters stand againsts the true greats of the sport ?



Some of them yes, but not necessarily all of these circumstances sway my opinions.



Were any of the great fighters guilty of the same sort of behaviour ?


I 'll have to think about it.


(I will add that Duran quit later on in a 1990s fight, and Tyson tried to get himself disqualified against Kevin McBride before quitting in his last fight.)


I don't know the circumstances of these fights.

[janitor]

A lot of us might want to quit if we were being beaten to bloody mess by a world class boxer. You should allways consider that before you start calling names.

It is verry easy to call sombody a gutless chump from your armchair but it isnt your brain getting mashed against the inside of your skull.

[mightyd40]

to me robertos effects his status the most, not because it was as bad as the others but because his whole personality was based off of his machismo. the acts by liston and tyson kinda just fit in with how everyone took them anyways

[JohnThomas1]

to me robertos effects his status the most, not because it was as bad as the others but because his whole personality was based off of his machismo. the acts by liston and tyson kinda just fit in with how everyone took them anyways

I'd disagree about Liston. Up till that point (Clay 1) he had a fierce reputation and his intimidation factor was legendary. I also don't think anyone quite envisioned Tyson biting Holy's ear off, it sure surprized me. This was prior to his arm breaking shit and other such crappy stuff. He fought clean vs Douglas and sooked a little in Holy I. I think it was after the Holy rematch we all knew anything could happen in there from then on regarding Tyson.

[JohnThomas1]

Top thread BTW Sonny. I quite enjoyed your descriptions :lol:

[sthomas]

1) Tyson's was the worst of the bunch as he actually assaulted Holy with his freakin' chpppers!!!! Looked like a damn horse biting.

2) Duran quit in the middle of the round, not a good way to quit

3) Liston quit on his stool, claimed injury, happens all the time. In fight #2 maybe he could of got up, but it's better to quit on the canvas than to just throw up your arms. I've watched that phantom punch a bunch recently on U-tube (not the best definition), but it looks like Ali had his right down low, and then came up quickly and over Liston's guard. Looked real to me, but the kind of punch only Ali and a few others can pull off. Ali's power is strange, he knocked down Cleavland Williams (think it was the 1st KD) with a right hand while backpeddling quickly. Hard to get leverage on a punch like that but Williams dropped like a fly.

[sthomas]

Regarding a poster saying a guy should just go out on his shield regardless about how bad things are going, to me it depends on the circumstance. Alexis Arguello, a true credit to our sport, quit against Pryor fight #II after being knocked down in the 10th. He had had enough, and he was thinking about his health and future, especially after the frightening outcome of fight #I. I commend him for his decision.

[mightyd40]

I'd disagree about Liston. Up till that point (Clay 1) he had a fierce reputation and his intimidation factor was legendary. I also don't think anyone quite envisioned Tyson biting Holy's ear off, it sure surprized me. This was prior to his arm breaking shit and other such crappy stuff. He fought clean vs Douglas and sooked a little in Holy I. I think it was after the Holy rematch we all knew anything could happen in there from then on regarding Tyson.
i didnt mean the ear biting was expected i just meant people knew tyson had personality and stability issues going into the fight. as for liston i agree that the first fight was a little unexpected but in my post i guess i was just concentrating on their second fight and the dive he took. thrown fights at that time werent that rare. also i am not trying to excuse any of these guys quitting but i think roberto quitting anything is even more shocking to me than mike biting off someones ear

[JohnThomas1]

i didnt mean the ear biting was expected i just meant people knew tyson had personality and stability issues going into the fight. as for liston i agree that the first fight was a little unexpected but in my post i guess i was just concentrating on their second fight and the dive he took. thrown fights at that time werent that rare. also i am not trying to excuse any of these guys quitting but i think roberto quitting anything is even more shocking to me than mike biting off someones ear

Hey, no worries D40 and i get follow your reasoning. Roberto quitting was indeed a huge shock. That's a top tatt!

[Sonny's jab]

Top thread BTW Sonny. I quite enjoyed your descriptions :lol:

Well, I'm glad someone did. If you detected a slightly tongue-in-cheek attitude you're on the right wavelength. :good

[fists of fury]

Just because they're great fighters, it does not mean they're above criticism. They all took the easy way out, let's not pretend otherwise.

Maybe Tyson was being butted, but he knew he wasn't winning the fight. His behaviour was appalling.

Duran was made a fool of in front of millions and couldn't take it.

Liston's fearsome demeanour failed to work against Ali, and he quit with his tail between his legs.

Tyson's actions were the most despicable, Duran's the most unexpected and Liston's the most pathetic.

[JohnThomas1]

Just because they're great fighters, it does not mean they're above criticism. They all took the easy way out, let's not pretend otherwise.

Maybe Tyson was being butted, but he knew he wasn't winning the fight. His behaviour was appalling.

Duran was made a fool of in front of millions and couldn't take it.

Liston's fearsome demeanour failed to work against Ali, and he quit with his tail between his legs.

Tyson's actions were the most despicable, Duran's the most unexpected and Liston's the most pathetic.

Some great insights, but what's the difference between despicable and pathetic? I truly believe Sonny was told to throw the second fight and given what would have happened if he didn't i find it hard to hold against him. Tyson's action IMO is probably worse than Liston's, but i don't believe the biting out of anger, i favour it being a way out myself. If he really wanted to do something about Holy's alleged butting he had the option of making sure Holyfield stayed in front of him where he could try take his head off but he instead forced the issue the other way.

Just my opinion and a bit of deduced speculation i must admit.

[JohnThomas1]

Well, I'm glad someone did. If you detected a slightly tongue-in-cheek attitude you're on the right wavelength. :good

Yes, the tongue in cheek was hard to miss. I got some good laffs.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Duran and Liston's were worst. I'm talking Liston I here. They were losing and not by much and basically quit because they either felt embarrassed or realised they weren't going 15. Tyson at least acted like he wanted some sort of fight. He knew he'd be disqualified of course.

[Sonny's jab]

Well, Tyson had been beaten up by Holyfield before so his quitting is more understandable in some way.

I dont buy that crap about Liston and Duran "were taking quite a bad beating". People say that it's as if they've never seen a fight before. I dont know if it's to excuse Liston/Duran or to boost Ali/Leonard.
Liston and Duran may have been heading for defeat but we're talking about such a seriously slow trickle of "a beating" that's it's hardly worthy of that label.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Yes, Duran and Liston weren't suffering any beating. I'm saying they 'felt' embarrassed rather than were being embarrassed. They were likely two situations that they regretted a few minutes later. Duran seemed to regret it seconds later in fact.

[My dinner with Conteh]

A lot of us might want to quit if we were being beaten to bloody mess by a world class boxer. You should allways consider that before you start calling names.



Oh do shut up. We're not talking Arguello sitting down after getting pummeled by for 10 rounds by Pryor here, we're talking fighters who are virtually unmarked. Two of them received millions upon millions to taste a couple of jabs. :roll:

[Sonny's jab]

Yes, Duran and Liston weren't suffering any beating. I'm saying they 'felt' embarrassed rather than were being embarrassed. They were likely two situations that they regretted a few minutes later. Duran seemed to regret it seconds later in fact.

Yeah, I agree.
I think it was magoo who suggested they were both taking beatings.

I think both Liston and Duran had come unprepared, not properly trained, and expecting easy fights. That would have magnified the panic or frustration they felt when they realized their opponents were getting the better of them. Ironically, it looks far more humiliating (or embarrassing) after they QUIT than if they'd carried on and gotten beaten badly.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Regarding a poster saying a guy should just go out on his shield regardless about how bad things are going, to me it depends on the circumstance. Alexis Arguello, a true credit to our sport, quit against Pryor fight #II after being knocked down in the 10th. He had had enough, and he was thinking about his health and future, especially after the frightening outcome of fight #I. I commend him for his decision.



I actually didn't read this when I used that example above. It seems that everyone accepts Arguello's reluctance to carry on as understandable.

[ChrisPontius]

Oh do shut up. We're not talking Arguello sitting down after getting pummeled by for 10 rounds by Pryor here, we're talking fighters who are virtually unmarked. Two of them received millions upon millions to taste a couple of jabs. :roll:

Agreed, but about the unmarked bit, Liston's face was quite marked up despite not really taking a beating. Same with the Machen fight. He looked like a beaten fighter in the corner after the 6th, while Duran looked fresh but just not bothered by it. I don't think one is worse than the other, though Duran's quit jab probably had more impact because he just stopped fighting in the middle of the round, while Liston had the decency to wait until the round was over.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Fair enough, Liston had taken a few lumps but I don't consider it a proper beating. I'm sure we've all seen 'bottom of the bill' fighters carry on after far far worse than Liston had...unless his shoulder really was dislocated. ;)

[fists of fury]

Some great insights, but what's the difference between despicable and pathetic? I truly believe Sonny was told to throw the second fight and given what would have happened if he didn't i find it hard to hold against him. Tyson's action IMO is probably worse than Liston's, but i don't believe the biting out of anger, i favour it being a way out myself. If he really wanted to do something about Holy's alleged butting he had the option of making sure Holyfield stayed in front of him where he could try take his head off but he instead forced the issue the other way.

Just my opinion and a bit of deduced speculation i must admit.

I agree with you about Tyson. A guy who was apoplectic with rage would have shown signs of losing it before he did. It was a cop out.

When I say Liston's surrender was pathetic I literally mean pathetic - he looked the picture of a defeated man sitting on his stool, in the first fight. Head bowed, a miserable look on his face...he just looked a pathetic figure. In a way, I feel sorry for him.

The second fight with Ali...perhaps he was told to dive, I don't know. Something stank about that fight, no doubt about it!
One thing I've been thinking about though is this: what if Liston simply decided to take the money and run, sort of do a Buster Douglas? Is it out of the question to think so?

[JohnThomas1]

I agree with you about Tyson. A guy who was apoplectic with rage would have shown signs of losing it before he did. It was a cop out.

When I say Liston's surrender was pathetic I literally mean pathetic - he looked the picture of a defeated man sitting on his stool, in the first fight. Head bowed, a miserable look on his face...he just looked a pathetic figure. In a way, I feel sorry for him.

The second fight with Ali...perhaps he was told to dive, I don't know. Something stank about that fight, no doubt about it!
One thing I've been thinking about though is this: what if Liston simply decided to take the money and run, sort of do a Buster Douglas? Is it out of the question to think so?

Ahhh, i'm hearin' ya now. Regarding the take the money and run, can't see it myself. I've heard and read a bit about the fight and i just think/speculate Liston was told to lose.

[punchy]

Tyson had been headbutted by Holyfeild which had opened a serious cut which may have stopped the fight, this was the catalyst for his actions. The other guys to me gave up.

[mightyd40]

Hey, no worries D40 and i get follow your reasoning. Roberto quitting was indeed a huge shock. That's a top tatt!
thanks :good

[Bokaj]

I would say Duran's surrender was the most schocking. He was still fresh and still in the fight when he just up and quit. In Liston's and Tyson's cases it was pretty clear where the fights were heading, that they really didn't have much hope of winning. That doesn't excuse their behaviour in any way, but it makes it a bit more understandable.

[Irish Steel]

Just because they're great fighters, it does not mean they're above criticism. They all took the easy way out, let's not pretend otherwise.

Maybe Tyson was being butted, but he knew he wasn't winning the fight. His behaviour was appalling.

Duran was made a fool of in front of millions and couldn't take it.

Liston's fearsome demeanour failed to work against Ali, and he quit with his tail between his legs.

Tyson's actions were the most despicable, Duran's the most unexpected and Liston's the most pathetic.

I completely agree.