Vitali Klitschko vs Sonny Liston

[mr. magoo]

If asked who had the greater resume between Charles Liston and Vitali Klitschko, my answer would clearly be in favor of the man who called himself "Sonny."

Legacies and head to head matchups are two totally different animals however. Styles and physical attributes need to be taken into consideration when judging these things.

Sonny Liston was a fighter who initimidated the average opponent who stepped in the ring with him. He was around 6'1/2" and weighed anywhere from 212-217 in his prime. Size and the intimidation factors would both be easily eliminated however when faced with "Dr. Ironfist" Vitali Klitschko. He is nearly 6'8" and has weighed 240 Lbs of solid muscle. He had a well tested chin, and was never truly floored or KO'd in 37 fights. Vitali possesed great punching power and managed to win 34 of his 35 victories by KO. He also lost the fewest number of rounds of any belt holder in history. He was very slow, but had a great reach and jab to compensate for it. Liston was no speed demon either.

Sonny arguably beat better named opponents in Patterson, Williams, Follye, Machen, etc. Vitali had wins over Sanders, Hide, Donald, D. Williams, Bean, and should have beaten Byrd if his arm didn't give out on him.

Frankly, I think when we take into consideration that Liston would be giving up too much in size as well as losing the intimidation factor along with for once facing a guy with a greater reach who could utilize it, we can make a good case for Vitali winning this one.

[janitor]

I am going to have to see a whole lot more out of VK before I would contemplate putting him in the same ring as Sonny Liston.

[mr. magoo]

I am going to have to see a whole lot more out of VK before I would contemplate putting him in the same ring as Sonny Liston.

What fights have you seen from Kilt that lead you to believe he'd have no chance? Could you list these fights, and say specifically what mistakes he's made?

[janitor]

What fights have you seen from Kilt that lead you to believe he'd have no chance? Could you list these fights, and say specifically what mistakes he's made?

Its more a case of what fights I have not seen from him that lead me to think I should consider picking him over an all time great.

Who has he actualy beaten?

[Vaile]

I am going to have to see a whole lot more out of VK before I would contemplate putting him in the same ring as Sonny Liston.



:rofl I would be interested to know what your reservations over the match up would be? Certainly looking at their records and their respective styles, i see no reason for Vitali to be too disheartened.

[mr. magoo]

Its more a case of what fights I have not seen from him that lead me to think I should consider picking him over an all time great.

Who has he actualy beaten?

While you may not think much of his comp, I certainly thought that his knockouts over guys like Williams, Hide and Sanders were very good.

Take a look at the Hide knockout below, it won't take you long.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[janitor]

:rofl I would be interested to know what your reservations over the match up would be? Certainly looking at their records and their respective styles, i see no reason for Vitali to be too disheartened.

Looking at their records you will see that VK is almost totaly untested against ranked contenders barring loosing efforts.

I would call that a rather compelling reason to be disheartened going into a fight with a proven all time great.

[Holmes' Jab]

Liston, by late TKO or UD.

[mr. magoo]

Looking at their records you will see that VK is almost totaly untested against ranked contenders barring loosing efforts.

I would call that a rather compelling reason to be disheartened going into a fight with a proven all time great.

Yes, but head to head looking at what you can see of both, do you not see Klitschko as having a chance? Personally, I think it would be culture shock for Liston seeing a giant standing before him, and one who could actually fight back.

[PowerPuncher]

While you may not think much of his comp, I certainly thought that his knockouts over guys like Williams, Hide and Sanders were very good.

Take a look at the Hide knockout below, it won't take you long.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Hides chin was made from pure glass, cruserweight bums did that to him and beat him quicker. A better Sanders was out quicker against Rahman and Nate Tubbs and Williams was beaten quicker by Sinal Sam

[janitor]

While you may not think much of his comp, I certainly thought that his knockouts over guys like Williams, Hide and Sanders were very good.

Take a look at the Hide knockout below, it won't take you long.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Indeed these wins are verry impresive.

If history teaches us one lesson however it is that you are an unknown quantity untill you have gone up against the best of your era. VK might have been unlucky in the way the cards fell but we have to class him as at best an unknown quantity against all time greats.

[janitor]

Yes, but head to head looking at what you can see of both, do you not see Klitschko as having a chance? Personally, I think it would be culture shock for Liston seeing a giant standing before him, and one who could actually fight back.

You can never say that sombody has no chance but it would be verry unwise to start picking VK over all time greats on the basis of some admitedly impresive wins against B teir fighters.

[JohnThomas1]

Liston, by late TKO or UD.

Yeah, trying to think if Sonny would stop him and not quite sure. Definitely like Liston tho.

[SuzieQ49]

Liston by wide decision, mid round TKO, or cuts stoppage

[SuzieQ49]

Lets just hope Vitali doesnt postpone the liston fight 4 times then decide to retire a week before the fight.....LOL

[SuzieQ49]

Also is this the Vitali with or without steroids?

[Sonny's jab]

This fight ends with a shoulder injury. Or two.

[mr. magoo]

This fight ends with a shoulder injury. Or two.

lol:lol:

[SuzieQ49]

LOL..........At least one quits while behind, rather than ahead with 2 rounds to go.

[ChrisPontius]

Also is this the Vitali with or without steroids?

Depends, but if it is, Liston get's the eye blinding substance on his side.

[PowerPuncher]

Depends, but if it is, Liston get's the eye blinding substance on his side.

That could be fatal if it gets in 1 of those cuts

[SuzieQ49]

Depends, but if it is, Liston get's the eye blinding substance on his side.

How bout instead we give listons steroids?

[janitor]

How bout instead we give listons steroids?

No way.

You never know what kind Jeckel Hyde kind of monster you might create.

[mr. magoo]

How bout instead we give listons steroids?

You keep making reference to steroids. Vitali admitted to using a prescribed steroid in the 90's for some of his injuries sustained from his kickboxing career, but these were not performance enhancers. While, its certainly plausible that both Klitschko's could have used enhancers of some kind, I'm not sure that its ever been proven. To assume that they used such substances just because they're two big boys is questionable. They are naturally big people with the same genetic disposition, and a lifetime of weight training and participating in athletics. If you look at them, they are not nearly as freakish as say a pro body builder, wrestler or powerlifter.

[PowerPuncher]

You keep making reference to steroids. Vitali admitted to using a prescribed steroid in the 90's for some of his injuries sustained from his kickboxing career, but these were not performance enhancers. While, its certainly plausible that both Klitschko's could have used enhancers of some kind, I'm not sure that its ever been proven. To assume that they used such substances just because they're two big boys is questionable. They are naturally big people with the same genetic disposition, and a lifetime of weight training and participating in athletics. If you look at them, they are not nearly as freakish as say a pro body builder, wrestler or powerlifter.

Vitali was 200lbs as a 21yo, yet blew upto 250lbs as a pro. Vitali failed a drugs test for anabolic steroids ofcourse hes going to come up with an excuse, ie medical steroids, he came up with excuses for the Pele Reid and Maskeev KO losses too. Hes gone to the extent of lying before so Vitalis word means little

McCline, Holyfield, Golota are blantant roiders who were never caught, Morrison admitted Roidage but was never caught.

[Polymath]

LOL..........At least one quits while behind, rather than ahead with 2 rounds to go.

There's big difference between folding against the GOAT and quitting vs Chris Byrd.

[Polymath]

You keep making reference to steroids. Vitali admitted to using a prescribed steroid in the 90's for some of his injuries sustained from his kickboxing career, but these were not performance enhancers. While, its certainly plausible that both Klitschko's could have used enhancers of some kind, I'm not sure that its ever been proven. To assume that they used such substances just because they're two big boys is questionable. They are naturally big people with the same genetic disposition, and a lifetime of weight training and participating in athletics. If you look at them, they are not nearly as freakish as say a pro body builder, wrestler or powerlifter.
magoo, if you get thrown of the damn UKRAINIAN Olympic team for 'roiding, youre up to your elbows in shit, thats for sure :good

[Thread Stealer]

This fight ends with a shoulder injury. Or two.

Yes, how about a draw when both guys quit at the same time on their stools with shoulder injuries.

[pryorgatti]

<Liston by KO>

[ChrisPontius]

How bout instead we give listons steroids?

Who says he didn't already use them?

[janitor]

Who says he didn't already use them?

When were they first available?

I thought 70s but I could be wrong.

[ChrisPontius]

No, they have been around since the mid-50's. The Soviet Union has produced quite a number of steroids built athletes.

[janitor]

No, they have been around since the mid-50's. The Soviet Union has produced quite a number of steroids built athletes.

OK.

So theoreticaly Floyd Patterson could have used steroid.

[Polymath]

Who says he didn't already use them?

You are a fucking idiot. You dont even deserve to be spoken politely to, you're just a plain retard.

Tell us the one about how Chris byrd and Liston are the same size again genius? :lol:

[Polymath]

Who's moderating this forum?

Can whoever it is please have a word with this character calling himself ChrisPontius? He has implied/stated here that the likelihood of Vitali Klitschko and Sonny Liston being steroid users is about the same, and that there is apparently a good chance Liston was in fact a pioneer of steroid use, on par with the Soviet Union.

The point is, this guy is consciously trolling, please deal with him :good

[janitor]

You are a fucking idiot. You dont even deserve to be spoken politely to, you're just a plain retard.

Tell us the one about how Chris byrd and Liston are the same size again genius? :lol:

Be polite please.

[Polymath]

Be polite please.

Are you a moderator?

[janitor]

Are you a moderator?

If I was I wouldnt necisarily tell you about it.

[Polymath]

If I was I wouldnt necessarily tell you about it.
So no.

Again, who is modding around here? Trolling can be subtle, and these clowns who are claiming the chances of Vitali Klitschko and Sonny Liston being steroid users are about equal are unquestionably trolling.

[janitor]

So no.

Again, who is modding around here? Trolling can be subtle, and these clowns who are claiming the chances of Vitali Klitschko and Sonny Liston being steroid users are about equal are unquestionably trolling.

This forums diversity is its saving grace.

Take away the people with unorthodox opinions and there is no point in you being here.

If you want agreement you can always agree with yourself.

[ChrisPontius]

OK.

So theoreticaly Floyd Patterson could have used steroid.

Correct.


He has implied/stated here that the likelihood of Vitali Klitschko and Sonny Liston being steroid users is about the same


I never said the likelyhood was the same.

What i said was that Vitali was never caught on steroids in his pro career and neither was Liston, who was not even controlled.

Some people suggested Klitschko used them because he was big and steroids were around. OK, but Liston was big as well (for his time) and steroids were around back then too. Harder to get by, but mob connections could certainly work wonders.

In other words, either you consider both of the them "suspicious" or neither of them. Can't have it one way or another.



Tell us the one about how Chris byrd and Liston are the same size again genius? :lol:


At your service:

Byrd: 6'0 1/2 , 213lbs
Liston: 6'0 1/2, 212lbs

[Polymath]

'Unorthodox' is certainly a polite wat to dscribe the notion that there is an equal chance Klitschko and Liston were steroid users. more accurate one would be 'stupid'. However, I don't think (hope?) thats the case here; its just trolling.

[Polymath]

Correct.



I never said the likelyhood was the same.

What i said was that Vitali was never caught on steroids in his pro career and neither was Liston, who was not even controlled.

Some people suggested Klitschko used them because he was big and steroids were around. OK, but Liston was big as well (for his time) and steroids were around back then too. Harder to get by, but mob connections could certainly work wonders.

In other words, either you consider both of the them "suspicious" or neither of them. Can't have it one way or another.
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

So you are saying it and you aren't?

Vitali Klitschko was banned from the Ukrainian Olympic team for STEROID USE, which he himself freely admits.

Sonny Liston fought in an era when seteroids were not even widely in use, and were seemingly the preserve of the Soviet weightlifting team. Nobody, at an time, ever, has claimed or even implied Liston used steroids.

This is so obvious, its difficult to believe people need it explained to them (although this same person believes Liston and Chris Byrd where the same size, so...)

Mods please let me know if you consider ChrisPontius' claims that Klitscko and Liston are equally likely to have been steroid users to be trolling. Thanks.

[Thread Stealer]

Chris Byrd and Sonny Liston were roughly the same weight and height.

Liston, however, is more of a "natural" heavyweight than Byrd, and also was rangier.

I would imagine that Byrd is also smaller in the fist, wrist, forearm, bicep, thigh, calves, etc...areas as well.

[ChrisPontius]

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

So you are saying it and you aren't?

Vitali Klitschko was banned from the Ukrainian Olympic team for STEROID USE, which he himself freely admits.

Sonny Liston fought in an era when seteroids were not even widely in use, and were seemingly the preserve of the Soviet weightlifting team. Nobody, at an time, ever, has claimed or even implied Liston used steroids.

This is so obvious, its difficult to believe people need it explained to them (although this same person believes Liston and Chris Byrd where the same size, so...)

Mods please let me know if you consider ChrisPontius' claims that Klitscko and Liston are equally likely to have been steroid users to be trolling. Thanks.

That really hurt me. Please don't report my trolling to the mods! :|

[SuzieQ49]

Pontius....your usually a real knowledgable guy, dont stoop low with that nonsense your writing up top.



PS I have a ring magazine article in 2000 where bryd claims "I naturally weigh 195lb when I am not trainng, I have to eat and bulk my way up to 210lb"........


You think Liston naturally weighs 195lb? LOL

[Mendoza]

How bout instead we give listons steroids?


Liston did not use steroids. He used burning liquid on his gloves. Four fighters complained of it. Coincidence? Maybe, maybe not.

[SuzieQ49]

vitali tested positive forr roids.......hes a juice head

[mr. magoo]

When were they first available?

I thought 70s but I could be wrong.

Athletes in America have had access to steroids of various kinds since the 1960's. I'm not real sure about other countries though. Today, the most popular thing is human growth hormone. Evander Holyfield was reported to be receiving HGH, under the name Evan Holy or something like that.

[mr. magoo]

vitali tested positive forr roids.......hes a juice head

Vitali Klitschko has only tested positive for non-performance enhancing steroids which were used for healing purposes, and he told the board about them before even testing for them. Weather or not he used roids for performance enhancing is not yet proven. In anycase, he does not look like a freak to me, but rather a large muscle bound guy who comes from a family who has the same resemblance.

[PowerPuncher]

Vitali Klitschko has only tested positive for non-performance enhancing steroids which were used for healing purposes, and he told the board about them before even testing for them. Weather or not he used roids for performance enhancing is not yet proven. In anycase, he does not look like a freak to me, but rather a large muscle bound guy who comes from a family who has the same resemblance.

INCORRECT, Vitali tested positive for Steroids, he claimed they were for medical purposes but this is unsubstanciated

Vitali gained around 50lbs of muscle in around 8 years

[mr. magoo]

[quote=PowerPuncher]INCORRECT, Vitali tested positive for Steroids, he claimed they were for medical purposes but this is unsubstanciated


So in other words, by saying that this is " unsubstanciated" we don't really know who was telling the truth, the board or Vitali?


Vitali gained around 50lbs of muscle in around 8 years


Eight years is nearly a decade, and a lot can happen to an elite athlete who is training under modern standerds, within such a long period of time.

[SuzieQ49]

Mr. Magoo....Being a College Athlete myself in the sport of Wrestling and also Boxing At Petronelli's gym in Brockton, MMA trained in Ludlow Mass for "Team Link" Im just curious from reading your posts have you ever played high level sports in your life? ever play 1-1 sports?

[PowerPuncher]

[quote]


So in other words, by saying that this is " unsubstanciated" we don't really know who was telling the truth, the board or Vitali?

Eight years is nearly a decade, and a lot can happen to an elite athlete who is training under modern standerds, within such a long period of time.

Vitali tested positive for steroids, he claimed it was medical but never proved that matter, the Ukranian Olympic board are more linient than other boards so if they failed his test it is likely to have been an undefenable postition

Vitali ticks the following boxes for likely steroid candidate:

Failed a steroids test - TICK
Put on 50lbs of muscle - TICK
Steroid Related Tendon Injury - TICK

[Thread Stealer]

Athletes in America have had access to steroids of various kinds since the 1960's. I'm not real sure about other countries though. Today, the most popular thing is human growth hormone. Evander Holyfield was reported to be receiving HGH, under the name Evan Holy or something like that.

Evan Fields.

Quite a creative guy Evander is.

[joe33]

One ofthem big bastards by decapatation,not telling you which one lol hahahahaahahahahahe

[Bummy Davis]

Sonny took some drugs, we dont know which ones but mabey they were the same ones that Pinklon Thomas took. Its a funny thought but if steriods were around in the 50's who would be a candidate? Huricane Carter? Sonny Liston? Could you imagine Marciano on steriods or Louis...watch out..

[mr. magoo]

Mr. Magoo....Being a College Athlete myself in the sport of Wrestling and also Boxing At Petronelli's gym in Brockton, MMA trained in Ludlow Mass for "Team Link" Im just curious from reading your posts have you ever played high level sports in your life? ever play 1-1 sports?

I wrestled throughout highschool, and wrestled division three in college. I have also been a certified personal trainer who worked in a health club for several years. In addition, I have studied various disciplines of martial arts.

Where are you taking this in terms of Vitali's career, and how he'd do against Liston, or the whole steroid issue?

[SuzieQ49]

Thats awesome man, what college? did you guys ever wrestle Springfrield College?? what weight class.


- I wasnt trying to discredit you, it just seemed like from the way you were speaking you had alot of knowledge or perhaps experience with steroid use from athletes


Man speaking from one college wrestler to another.......if you were up 12-2 in a finals match(basically no way you could lose) going into the 3rd period and you suffered a injury that you knew in wrestling you could just stall and survive........wouldnt you suck it up and try to go for the title or would you quit well ahead and injury default out and lose your championship like vitali did?

[mr. magoo]

=SuzieQ49]Thats awesome man, what college? did you guys ever wrestle Springfrield College?? what weight class.


I wrestled in the 150 Lb weight class, 12-14 years ago, for Elmhurst college in Chicago. We were a small private catholic school, and mainly competed with other division three schools. Nothing special really, and I was an average wrestler by my own standards.


- I wasnt trying to discredit you, it just seemed like from the way you were speaking you had alot of knowledge or perhaps experience with steroid use from athletes


Never really had one on one experience with roid users, or at least not knowingly. I worked at a health club in deerfield Illinois from 1999-2005. I had the opportunity to meat and know by name many of the Chicago Bears and a few of the Bulls. They were naturally big men, and many of them used our therapy department to rehab injuries. Some of them may have been using substances but it was difficlult to tell. I have seen many young athletes gain a lot of muscle mass in a very short period of time though.


Man speaking from one college wrestler to another.......if you were up 12-2 in a finals match(basically no way you could lose) going into the 3rd period and you suffered a injury that you knew in wrestling you could just stall and survive........wouldnt you suck it up and try to go for the title or would you quit well ahead and injury default out and lose your championship like vitali did?
[/QUOTE]
I would certainly like to think that I could, but the reality is, I failed when faced with a similar situation. A wrestler managed to get me into a hold which resulted in my rotator cuff getting torn, and I was in so much pain that I got pinned and counted out. It was later determined that I had a bad injury and I sat out the rest of my senior year. A rotator cuff is not a minor injury. It is very deabilitating. Vitali Klitschko was in the 9th round of a championship fight with at least 3 rounds to go, and I'm still not sure when exactly the injury occurred. It could have been 3 rounds earlier for all I know, though I'm sure there is probably literature on it somewhere.

[EARL]

I'll go with Klitschko by clear decision.

[ChrisPontius]

Pontius....your usually a real knowledgable guy, dont stoop low with that nonsense your writing up top.



PS I have a ring magazine article in 2000 where bryd claims "I naturally weigh 195lb when I am not trainng, I have to eat and bulk my way up to 210lb"........


You think Liston naturally weighs 195lb? LOL

Well it's funny to read that he "eats" himself up to 213lbs, because he always looks ripped and if you'd ask a person who didn't know Byrd, they wouldn't know he "ate" himself up to that weight.


[Only registered and activated users can see links]


A guy who ate himself up to his weight looks like this:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[mcvey]

All you mat guys are frightened of boxing but want the kudos of physical combat ,wrestling is for wimps,Get in the ring and exchange punches ,instead of fondling each other on the mat.There hasnt been a decent wrestler since Hackenshmidt and Gotch retired.Something a bit suspect about all those cross buttocks and full nelson's imo. :lol:

[PowerPuncher]

Well it's funny to read that he "eats" himself up to 213lbs, because he always looks ripped and if you'd ask a person who didn't know Byrd, they wouldn't know he "ate" himself up to that weight.


[Only registered and activated users can see links]


A guy who ate himself up to his weight looks like this:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

BYRD IS FIGHTING AT 175 IN HIS NEXT FIGHT, ENOUGH SAID, BYRD ALSO LOST TO CALAZAGE

[Vaile]

With a 92percent KO average, Vitali Klitschko is the most powerful boxer of all time, ahead of George Foreman, Rocky Marciano and Joe Louis. If Sonny Liston was KO'd by a non-puncher like Ali, then surely Klitschko would demolish him.



For punching power alone i wouldn't put Vitali in the top 100 p4p. All of his knock outs come from damage over time, a cumulative build up; It also must be noted that this is against b level opposition. He has average power.

[Bummy Davis]

Well it's funny to read that he "eats" himself up to 213lbs, because he always looks ripped and if you'd ask a person who didn't know Byrd, they wouldn't know he "ate" himself up to that weight.


[Only registered and activated users can see links]


A guy who ate himself up to his weight looks like this:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]





I have to agree, If you said that about the 5"9 James Toney who was 238 LBS for some of his fights you would have a point but Byrd carried the weight well. He handled big guys well and the only time he messed up was with Vlad (and that was not a size issue) amd Laying on the ropes vs Ike. Byrd did not have Listons power but offered a lot of other skills and could hurt a guy as well and had decent southpaw speed

[Thread Stealer]

With 100% of his wins by KO, Mac Foster is the most powerful boxer of all time, ahead of George Foreman, Rocky Marciano and Joe Louis. If Jerry Quarry was KO'd by a non-puncher like Ali, then surely Foster would demolish him.

Sure.

[coog]

What on earth are you guys talking about? What do roids have to do with anything. He is 6'8" 250 lbs and talented and tough I am 53 years old. My old man boxed I wrestled In high school, college, Studied Martial arts under Jim Harrison. Chuck Norris. Bruce Lee and the Old man Gracie and I know more than all of you. I think that vitali would win

[Mendoza]

INCORRECT, Vitali tested positive for Steroids, he claimed they were for medical purposes but this is unsubstanciated

Vitali gained around 50lbs of muscle in around 8 years

Let’s focus on the facts, which might be difficult for power puncher since he hates Vitali. Vitali was given some medicine by a doctor to heal an injury that contained one of 200+ banned substances in the Olympics. This was his lone positive test.

Vitali has always tested clean as a professional. You know this, so stop pretending as if what he accomplished as a professional was with the aid of steroids.

The 50 pound weight gain weight in eight years is laughable. First off it was not a 50 pound gain. In 1996 Vitali was about 230 pounds. Vitali is a large man at 6’8”. Big athletes tend to gain weight as they age. Check any sport.

Or if Power puncher thinks everyone who gains weight is on riods, maybe he can tell us how Lennox Lewis, who was 207 pounds in his first Olympics gained nearly 50 pounds over the course of his career.

[JohnThomas1]

I wrestled throughout highschool, and wrestled division three in college. I have also been a certified personal trainer who worked in a health club for several years. In addition, I have studied various disciplines of martial arts.

Where are you taking this in terms of Vitali's career, and how he'd do against Liston, or the whole steroid issue?

Jeez man i'm gonna make sure i go easy with the cheek from here on!! :yikes

[Doppleganger]

Well it's funny to read that he "eats" himself up to 213lbs, because he always looks ripped and if you'd ask a person who didn't know Byrd, they wouldn't know he "ate" himself up to that weight.


[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Byrd looks a little soft in the above photo around the pectoral area, so he definately has a few pounds he could lose if he had to. He could fight at 175lb but he'd be ripped and would also lose a lot of muscle mass in doing so. He looks like a guy who has not cut any weight just to stay in the more profitable heavyweight division.

As far as VK goes he does not at all look overly bulked in that photo. As the guy is 6ft 7 I would suggest that 250lbs is a good solid weight for him. It certainly doesn't look like he's abused steriods or HGH whenever I've seen him. Just remember how tall this guy is - he's about 7 inches taller than Liston!

As for VK not having proven himself worthy to be in the same ring as Liston what nonesense. Whilst I'm not saying he would win he'd give a good account of himself and he has serious physical advanatges over Liston. As for the person he said he has 'average' power you're having a laugh mate. While he isn't a one punch bomber like a Tyson or a Lewis VK has more than decent power. You don't get a KO% like he has with 'average' power.

[Mendoza]

BYRD IS FIGHTING AT 175 IN HIS NEXT FIGHT, ENOUGH SAID, BYRD ALSO LOST TO CALAZAGE

And Joe Louis started boxing as a light heavyweight. Ali won Gold at light heavyweight too. I love how some say Byrd is too small in a vain effort to diminish modern heavies, but Louis and Marciano are not. Its a double standard.

[enquirer]

Is roy jones a natural heavyweight or cruiser because he fought at 193 (200 in the ring.) ripped v ruiz? Or is he actually best at 168 as he was in his prime? (he was 169 in his last bout v tito.)
The answer to that question will tell you the story of this thread digression regarding the size of byrd and liston....

[The Kurgan]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Liston has the reach advantage (84 inches versus 79 inches for Vitali) which I suspect would at least mitigate the effect of Vitali's 7/8 inch reach advantage. I certainly don't think this is one case where the shorter boxer is going to have trouble reaching his opponent.

Both were very slow: Vitali seemed slower on his feet, especially when he entered into the big leagues; Liston loaded up on his punches more and thus tended to be slower with his hands. Neither was known for their excellent defence, but both had a few defensive moves (Vitali's leaning back, Liston's smart defensive footwork) that often got them out of serious trouble.

In terms of punching technique, I give a considerable edge to Liston. Vitali was essentially an arm-puncher who rarely put a lot of power into any individual punch. Sonny didn't even know how to throw a jab without trying to cave his opponent's face in. I also think that, at his best, Liston's combination punching was considerably better.

Vitali had the better workrate though. Liston was no slouch, but he tended to be pretty tactical in workrate terms: sometimes he'd put his opponent under pressure, but often he'd jab away and wait for an opportunity to present itself. Vitali was in the school of making opportunities: he was into constantly punching, even if ineffectually, trying to wear his opponent down.

I give Vitali an edge in terms of his stamina. At his best, Liston's stamina was good but not fantastic. Vitali won many of his best fights in the later rounds. It's true that Vitali sometimes looked punched out after 2 rounds, but that was due to his slack technique which made him look more tired than he actually was.

Vitali would also have an edge in the chin department, but not by much. Liston, a blatant dive aside, was only knocked out once in his career, against Leotis Martin when he was utterly exhausted and over five years past his peak. In his prime he took some very good punches from Cleveland Williams, a monstrous puncher. Overall, I would describe Liston's chin as very good. Vitali's, on the other hand, was excellent: big punchers of the level of Lewis and Sanders couldn't put him down.

I think that Liston's punch selection would be well suited to fighting Vitali. His long jab would present a dilemma for Vitali: lean back and expose his body, or move back towards the ropes? Liston's left hook I think would present a big problem for Vitali, due to how low he kept his right hand. Vitali never faced a left-hooker anywhere near the level of Liston. Liston was also very educated with his right hand and I think could score with it in close. Sonny's body attack would serve him very well on the inside, I suspect.

Vitali, on the other hand, doesn't have that same kind of suitable punch selection. I don't think his jab would be fast enough to be effective against Liston; his right hand, although good, would be too predictable for a boxer of the experience and craftsmanship of Liston. Beating a prime Liston involved having quick and unpredictable punches, but Vitali just doesn't bring that to the table.

This is how I see a fight between the two panning out: early on, Liston would force the action patientely, keeping Vitali off balance with the jab and his aggression, but not overextending himself either enough to be countered effectively or to finish Vitali off. Occasionally he'd land a big bomb, but Vitali's strength, chin and survival instincts would keep him standing. Liston would likely sweep all of the first seven rounds.

Around round eight or nine, I suspect Liston would make a strategic decision to fight more cautiously. Vitali would start to get into the fight, but fail to land anything especially effective. Given Liston's body attack and early dominance, I suspect Vitali would have trouble quite getting into gear, as seemed the case by the sixth round of the Lewis fight. Still, Vitali I think would win a majority of the last five rounds; say three or four, with Liston landing the cleaner punches and Vitali landing more of them.

Final scores would be something like 9-3 or 8-4 Liston. Vitali I think would put up a very good fight and win a lot of respect for his performance, but I think he would be dealing both with a different league from that which he competed in and a difficult style. I suppose you could summarise this one as a triumph of good technique and strategy over height and durability. I'd be keen to see this one.

[SuzieQ49]

And Joe Louis started boxing as a light heavyweight. Ali won GOld at ligh heavyweight too. I love how some say Byrd is too small in a vain effort to diminish modern heavies, but Louis and Marciano are not. Its a double standard.


Its not bryd is small, hes just not that good.

[mr. magoo]

Rapid fire Byrd was a hell of a good fighter, who proved he was decent in a division where most of its participants were much larger than himself. In some 46 pro fights, he was stopped only twice, once coming at the age of 37 to a prime Wlad, and the other coming against a very dangerous Ike Ibeabuchi. Byrd managed to beat some very good fighters as well, including two wins agains Vitali Klitschko ( he needed help from Vitali's shoulder ), and David Tua. He also defeated a few other rated guys who were okay. He won fragments of the heavyweight title on at least two separate occasions that I can think of, and managed to defend the IBF belt 4 times successfully.

[Mendoza]

Its not bryd is small, hes just not that good.

Byrd was good. If you objectively look at his resume of wins, its is impressive. Byrd's main problem was he was a 6' 210-213 pound heavywieght mixing it with much bigger and stronger men.

[janitor]

Byrd was good. If you objectively look at his resume of wins, its is impressive. Byrd's main problem was he was a 6' 210-213 pound heavywieght mixing it with much bigger and stronger men.

But he wasnt a natural 210 lb heavyweight. Just a light heavyweight who bulked up to 210 lbs. Not really the same thing.

[Mendoza]

But he wasnt a natural 210 lb heavyweight. Just a light heavyweight who bulked up to 210 lbs. Not really the same thing.

Byrd's natural weight was on par or more than Marciano's. I don't Byrd was out of shape as a heavyweight.

[ChrisPontius]

But he wasnt a natural 210 lb heavyweight. Just a light heavyweight who bulked up to 210 lbs. Not really the same thing.

Byrd has said several things on how he left training camp, SuzieQ has an example when he said 198lbs, i remember one where he was 210lbs.

At any rate, he is ripped at 210lbs and his natural weight is definitely not 175lbs.

[Sonny's jab]

Byrd was NOT a particularly good fighter.
His "smallness" was only an issue because he couldn't punch to save his life, and his boxing was overrated.

Holyfield was 210 pounds and packed a good punch, Moorer was a blown-up light-heavy, a bit flabby at 214, and he too could pack a punch. Tyson was 5-11 and 215 and kicked all sorts of ass.

Byrd had lots of courage and some skills, but he's way overrated simply because he owned some BULLSHIT ALPHABET PLASTIC BELT "TITLE".

[janitor]

Byrd has said several things on how he left training camp, SuzieQ has an example when he said 198lbs, i remember one where he was 210lbs.

At any rate, he is ripped at 210lbs and his natural weight is definitely not 175lbs.

His natural weight sure as hell isnt 210 lbs.

I think that if he had fought pre 1980 we would be looking at a 185-195lb heavyweight,

Eddie Machen might be a good comparison.

[mr. magoo]

Byrd was NOT a particularly good fighter.
His "smallness" was only an issue because he couldn't punch to save his life, and his boxing was overrated.

Holyfield was 210 pounds and packed a good punch, Moorer was a blown-up light-heavy, a bit flabby at 214, and he too could pack a punch. Tyson was 5-11 and 215 and kicked all sorts of ass.

Byrd had lots of courage and some skills, but he's way overrated simply because he owned some BULLSHIT ALPHABET PLASTIC BELT "TITLE".

Byrd was awesome. No, he wasn't as good as your favorite fighter Wladimir, but what the hell, he was pretty decent.

[mr. magoo]

Before Sonny's jab goes to bed every night, he recites his vows:

Honor thy self, honor thy wife, honor thy parents.......Honor thy Wladimir.....


( Just teasing you Sonny )

[PowerPuncher]

Byrd has said several things on how he left training camp, SuzieQ has an example when he said 198lbs, i remember one where he was 210lbs.

At any rate, he is ripped at 210lbs and his natural weight is definitely not 175lbs.

Why is his next fight at 175 then genius :yep

[Sonny's jab]

Talk of "natural weight" is kind of meaningless in most of these discussions.

It's natural to put on weight when you eat more or expend less energy. It's natural to lose weight when you burn calories and/or eat less.

It's natural to put on muscle with certain exercise, it's natural to lose fat with certain exercise.

It's natural to drop a load of weight if you starve yourself, restrict water intake, and sit in saunas.

It's not exactly natural to care about and adjust how much you weigh to the exact pound though !

I've heard Thomas Hearns described as a "natural welterweight". I dont know why. Sure, he was gentically programmed to be slim but maybe, just maybe, a lot of hard training and deliberate weight-monitoring made him a welterweight.

Boxers dont really have "natural weight" seperate from the weight they intend to fight at.
Heavyweights are an exception up to a point, but what's natural for any given heavyweight might vary 20-30 or more pounds anyway.
For example, Sonny Liston might choose to be 205 or 225, Lewis might have felt comfortable at 225 or 260, and no one would have argued anything different for their "natural weight".

[enquirer]

Good points sonny.
I would also add,that the division in which you fight the majority of your adult career in is generally your natural boxing weight.
However,some fighters do dehydrate or eat themselves up or down divisions.
As for heavies,they are a different species,and byrd,jones et al are not real natural heavies. I think the smallest natural (without overeating or steroids or excessive weight training.) heavies are guys like marciano,dempsey, henry cooper and maybe charles.

[Doppleganger]

Most boxers put on weight as they get older - it's part of the aging process. Take the majority of fighters over a say 10 to 15 year span and you'll see a natural increase in weight. For example, I bet it's tougher for Calzaghe to make SMW now than it was 10 years ago. Tommy Hearns would never have been able to make WW after 1985. It's partly why Lewis and Bruno both got heavier as they aged.

It's all to do with the slowing down of the metabolic process so don't get hung up on a boxer having just one natural weight.

[Jack]

Why is his next fight at 175 then genius :yep
It won't happen. I don't think it has been seriously considered for a while actually. Last I heard, Byrd was talking more seriously about cruiserweight.

[SuzieQ49]

His natural weight sure as hell isnt 210 lbs.

I think that if he had fought pre 1980 we would be looking at a 185-195lb heavyweight,

Eddie Machen might be a good comparison.


Tell you the truth, I think Eddies technique, boxing skills, stamina, look far better than chris bryd on film. In fact Eddie Machen looks like a better pure boxer on film than most fighters I have seen. He is a fighter all beginner boxers should study if they want to learn the boxing fundamentals

[Mendoza]

Thats awesome man, what college? did you guys ever wrestle Springfrield College?? what weight class.


- I wasnt trying to discredit you, it just seemed like from the way you were speaking you had alot of knowledge or perhaps experience with steroid use from athletes


Man speaking from one college wrestler to another.......if you were up 12-2 in a finals match(basically no way you could lose) going into the 3rd period and you suffered a injury that you knew in wrestling you could just stall and survive........wouldnt you suck it up and try to go for the title or would you quit well ahead and injury default out and lose your championship like vitali did?

Bad anology. Wrestling has three rounds. Vitlai had to go 12 rounds, and hurt his arm in the 3rd. Its not like Vitali hurt his shoulder in the 11th round, and only had to go one more round.

You can't wrestle with a torn shoulder, ( Picutre a half nelson on the side with a bad shoulder ) and its very hard to box with a bad shoulder as well.

[SuzieQ49]

In boxing with a shoulder injury......you can survive for 2 rounds if your far bigger than your opponent and very durable and the other guy cant punch a lick.

[mr. magoo]

In boxing with a shoulder injury......you can survive for 2 rounds if your far bigger than your opponent and very durable and the other guy cant punch a lick.

I would imagine that everytime an opponent nails that arm though, its gotta hurt like hell. Typically what happens with shoulder injuries, is that its not always just the shoulder that hurts. The pain can be referred to other places, and you can actually feel it down the entire length of the arm. In a sport where you're holding your arms up constantly and getting hit by the other guy, that can be like agony I imagine.

Also, we don't know exactly when Vitali's arm started bothering him. For all we know, he could have injured it a few rounds earlier. I doubt that he quit immediately when his arm started talking to him. Afterall he showed great heart in the Lennox Lewis fight. He wanted to continue fighting, depite having half his face punched off.

[The Kurgan]

In a sport where you're holding your arms up constantly

We're talking about Vitali here! :lol:

[red cobra]

No matter where you rank Vitali in the great scheme of things, I bekieve that he would have had an excellent chance of either going the distance and not being decked by Listn, while giving him a good, even gruelling fight, or even using that unorthodox, tall style of his, which including leaning away from punches, having a better than average chin, and effective counter punching to actually upsetting Sonny late in the fight with a tko.

[red cobra]

Tell you the truth, I think Eddies technique, boxing skills, stamina, look far better than chris bryd on film. In fact Eddie Machen looks like a better pure boxer on film than most fighters I have seen. He is a fighter all beginner boxers should study if they want to learn the boxing fundamentals
Yes, Eddie was a fundamentally sound, and against Liston, even resourceful and clever, even though offensively and size wise he was a bit outgunned. Even though he lost the fight, I am more impressed with Machen than I am with Liston. If he was only a bit bigger, like most modern heavies are, he would have beaten Sonny, because the thing that he had in abundance, more than anything else in that fight that was so impressive, was fearlessness, mixed in with that defensive cleverness of his.

[Mendoza]

I would imagine that everytime an opponent nails that arm though, its gotta hurt like hell. Typically what happens with shoulder injuries, is that its not always just the shoulder that hurts. The pain can be referred to other places, and you can actually feel it down the entire length of the arm. In a sport where you're holding your arms up constantly and getting hit by the other guy, that can be like agony I imagine.

Also, we don't know exactly when Vitali's arm started bothering him. For all we know, he could have injured it a few rounds earlier. I doubt that he quit immediately when his arm started talking to him. Afterall he showed great heart in the Lennox Lewis fight. He wanted to continue fighting, depite having half his face punched off.


HBO's interpreter reported from Vitali’s corner that he had a problem with his arm in round three. Its on the tape. Vitlai fought many rounds injured and was beating a prime version of Chris Byrd.

[mr. magoo]

HBO's interpreter reported from Vitali’s corner that he had a problem with his arm in round three. Its on the tape. Vitlai fought many rounds injured and was beating a prime version of Chris Byrd.

Yeah, I kind of figured as much. Klitschko has a lot more heart than people give him credit for. In fact, I think he's damn tuff. People act like Vitali quit just as soon as his arm started aching. He fought for some 6 rounds with a rotator cuff injury, and I can tell you from personal experience that the guy had to be in agony. He also showed heart against Lennox Lewis when he sustained that huge cut and wanted to continue despite the fight being stopped.

The more I think about it, the more I believe that a healthy Vitali Klitschko could have been a real problem for a much smaller Sonny Liston. I know Suzy and a number of other posters are going to scream in outrage and repeat the same rhetoric " he fought B level fighters ", but I really don't care. Klitschko is not going to be intimidated nor is he going to just quit against Liston. Sonny will not enjoy his usual advantage of having an opponent walk in with cold feet. In fact, I'm almost wondering if Sonny might be a tad edgy in this fight himself. Vitali has a much better chin than most fighters in the game. He has my vote as one of the top 10 hardest punchers in history, and I don't care if people say " who did he knock out?" The man could jab and he knew how to box. I know that a great small fighter can certainly beat a much bigger fighter, but its not like Liston would be fighting some big shit head who couldn't fight. Vitali is a very good big fighter, and this is by no means an effort at me overrating him. It doesn't always take an all time great to beat an all time great. Legacied are established through what a fighter did in his own time, and they do not always represent what he would do in a cross era matchup, even against a lesser rated champion.

[Bokaj]

Yeah, I kind of figured as much. Klitschko has a lot more heart than people give him credit for. In fact, I think he's damn tuff. People act like Vitali quit just as soon as his arm started aching. He fought for some 6 rounds with a rotator cuff injury, and I can tell you from personal experience that the guy had to be in agony. He also showed heart against Lennox Lewis when he sustained that huge cut and wanted to continue despite the fight being stopped.

The more I think about it, the more I believe that a healthy Vitali Klitschko could have been a real problem for a much smaller Sonny Liston. I know Suzy and a number of other posters are going to scream in outrage and repeat the same rhetoric " he fought B level fighters ", but I really don't care. Klitschko is not going to be intimidated nor is he going to just quit against Liston. Sonny will not enjoy his usual advantage of having an opponent walk in with cold feet. In fact, I'm almost wondering if Sonny might be a tad edgy in this fight himself. Vitali has a much better chin than most fighters in the game. He has my vote as one of the top 10 hardest punchers in history, and I don't care if people say " who did he knock out?" The man could jab and he knew how to box. I know that a great small fighter can certainly beat a much bigger fighter, but its not like Liston would be fighting some big shit head who couldn't fight. Vitali is a very good big fighter, and this is by no means an effort at me overrating him. It doesn't always take an all time great to beat an all time great. Legacied are established through what a fighter did in his own time, and they do not always represent what he would do in a cross era matchup, even against a lesser rated champion.

That sounds very reasonable to me, all in all.

[SuzieQ49]

The more I think about it, the more I believe that a healthy Vitali Klitschko could have been a real problem for a much smaller Sonny Liston. I know Suzy and a number of other posters are going to scream in outrage and repeat the same rhetoric " he fought B level fighters ", but I really don't care. Klitschko is not going to be intimidated nor is he going to just quit against Liston. Sonny will not enjoy his usual advantage of having an opponent walk in with cold feet. In fact, I'm almost wondering if Sonny might be a tad edgy in this fight himself. Vitali has a much better chin than most fighters in the game. He has my vote as one of the top 10 hardest punchers in history, and I don't care if people say " who did he knock out?" The man could jab and he knew how to box. I know that a great small fighter can certainly beat a much bigger fighter, but its not like Liston would be fighting some big shit head who couldn't fight. Vitali is a very good big fighter, and this is by no means an effort at me overrating him. It doesn't always take an all time great to beat an all time great. Legacied are established through what a fighter did in his own time, and they do not always represent what he would do in a cross era matchup, even against a lesser rated champion.




I understand your trying to be reasonable here and I applaud your effort, but all in all your just sounding unrealistic and delusional

[mr. magoo]

I understand your trying to be reasonable here and I applaud your effort, but all in all your just sounding unrealistic and delusional

What is so unrealistic or delusional about a human being beating another human being in a boxin ring, especially one who is clearly the bigger, stronger and more durable of the two. And please don't try and tell me Liston was superior to Klitschko in any of those areas. Liston was 6'0" 215 Lb man who was used to beating on 190 Lb men, who now would be fighting a 6'"8, 240 Lb mountain of muscle. Big difference, when going from being a big fish in a small pond to being a minnow in lake Michigan. Klitschko will never have the all time great status that Liston has, but one does not necessarily need that to be an all time great. If Cleveland Williams was the biggest and hardest puncher Liston ever fought, he'd be in for a rude awakening here.

[Polymath]

magoo youre starting to sound like a Klitschkonian. Remember being objective doesn't mean taking two extreme points and saying the truth is the very middle, which it seems is what you're trying to do.

[Polymath]

The facts remain' Klitschko fought two guys who could fight back
1/ Byrd, made him quit
2/ Lewis, literally mutilated him (an old, fat Lewis, no less)

So, what youre left with essentially is, 'he's 6'8' - thats it.

[mr. magoo]

The facts remain' Klitschko fought two guys who could fight back
1/ Byrd, made him quit
2/ Lewis, literally mutilated him (an old, fat Lewis, no less)

So, what youre left with essentially is, 'he's 6'8' - thats it.

Chris Byrd was one of the very best fighters at the time and Vitali was kicking the shit out of him. No getting around that. His retirment in his corner had absolutely nothing to do with anything that Chris Byrd did to him, so your ascertion that Byrd made him quit is very incorrect. As for Lewis, he was getting his ass kicked for 4/5 strait rounds in that fight, before that nasty cut cought up to Klitschko, and it was the ringside doctor who stopped it, not Vitali. Sure Lewis was past his prime at age 38, I won't try to say that he wasn't. But even a 38 year old Lewis was still better than a lot of great fighters, and Klitschko was dominating that fight. Just because Lennox managed to pull a stoppage out of his ass doesn't guarantee that Liston would do anything to him. Lewis was a totally different type of fighter with better boxing ability, and larger size to back it up.

Where in the blue fuck does all this nonsense come from about Vitali being a quitter?????

I agree that Liston could have beaten Vitali, but some here are acting like the possibility of the opposite occuring is something out of a fiction novel.

[SuzieQ49]

What is so unrealistic or delusional about a human being beating another human being in a boxin ring, especially one who is clearly the bigger, stronger and more durable of the two. And please don't try and tell me Liston was superior to Klitschko in any of those areas. Liston was 6'0" 215 Lb man who was used to beating on 190 Lb men, who now would be fighting a 6'"8, 240 Lb mountain of muscle. Big difference, when going from being a big fish in a small pond to being a minnow in lake Michigan. Klitschko will never have the all time great status that Liston has, but one does not necessarily need that to be an all time great. If Cleveland Williams was the biggest and hardest puncher Liston ever fought, he'd be in for a rude awakening here.


For this matchup to be made, is liston allowed to take steroids just like vitali did?



Liston on steroids is another animal, he would probably go up to 240-250lb of muscle.


If Cleveland Williams was the biggest and hardest puncher Liston ever fought, he'd be in for a rude awakening here.[/

Are you claiming Williams wasnt a big chizzled deadly puncher?

[SuzieQ49]

clearly the bigger, stronger and more durable of the two.


Would vitali be bigger and stronger if he were not on steroids? I think liston on steroids is much stronger than vitali.


As far as durability is concerned, vitali is untested....and don't bring up corrie sanders, who was 39 years old out of shape and had no power/stamina left after 2 rounds(in which he did real well vs vitali argueably flooring him)........

[mr. magoo]

[quote=SuzieQ49]Would vitali be bigger and stronger if he were not on steroids? I think liston on steroids is much stronger than vitali.



This has been discussed in great detail, but like everything else, it needs to be repeated over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.

YOU HAVE NO PROOF WHATSOEVER THAT THE GUY USED PERFORMANCE EHANCERS NOR THAT LISTON NEVER USED THEM EITHER. WHAT'S MORE THERE IS NO GUARANTEE THAT SONNY WOULD BENEFIT FROM THEIR USE IF HE DID.

I look forward to repeating the same thing tommarrow at the same time, given that the shelf life of your memory is about 18-24 hours.

As far as durability is concerned, vitali is untested....

Bullshit. You don't know what the fuck you're even talking about.


and don't bring up corrie sanders, who was 39 years old out of shape and had no power/stamina left after 2 rounds

So now a fighter who is in his late 30's is a bum opponent when its Vitali Klitschko who's fighting him, but if an all time great who existed pre-1965 beat the shit out of a late 30's guy, it was an acheivment right? Sanders was coming off the best win of his career, and was a large hard hitting south paw. I agree that he could have been in better shape and fighting a tad more actively before meeting Vitali, but he was still a formidable opponent.


(in which he did real well vs vitali argueably flooring him)........

[mr. magoo]

[quote=SuzieQ49]Would vitali be bigger and stronger if he were not on steroids? I think liston on steroids is much stronger than vitali.



By saying that the playing fields were uneven, you're basically conceding your argument that Liston should be favored. I like to compare fighters for how they actually were in their primes, and not what they might have been morphed into.
As far as durability is concerned, vitali is untested....

I think he's proven his chin against a fair list of punchers. He took punches from Lewis and was stopped against his own desire. He took shots from Hide, Sanders and Purity, all big punchers. He was never floored and never truly dominated.

and don't bring up corrie sanders, who was 39 years old out of shape and had no power/stamina left after 2 rounds

He was actually 38, but anyway....
Sanders was coming off the best win of his career, and was a large hard hitting south paw who still had some of the fastest handspeed in the division despite his age. Saying that he was a weak opponent because he was 38 is just as misleading as saying Archie Moore and Joe Walcott were shot at the age of 38, and we both know they weren't. I agree that he could have been in better shape and fighting a tad more actively before meeting Vitali, but he was still a formidable opponent, who a lot of fighters were intentionally avoiding. Vitali took the fight, and won convincingly while taking some very solid shots.


(in which he did real well vs vitali argueably flooring him)........


The general concencus is that incident was not a real knockdown, but a momentary loss of balance,and the referee never ruled it as a KD. I happen to agree with the ref.

This was about as close to being knocked down as Vitali has ever gotten. How many times was Liston down in his career?

[Polymath]

His retirment in his corner had absolutely nothing to do with anything that Chris Byrd did to him, so your ascertion that Byrd made him quit is very incorrect.

I think the left hands Byrd was nailing him with had a lot to do with it. Thats no more speculative that this crap about how much pain you think klitschko was in and what he round he got injured. He quit, thats the truth :deal

[Polymath]

Chris Byrd was one of the very best fighters at the time and Vitali was kicking the shit out of him. No getting around that. His retirment in his corner had absolutely nothing to do with anything that Chris Byrd did to him, so your ascertion that Byrd made him quit is very incorrect. As for Lewis, he was getting his ass kicked for 4/5 strait rounds in that fight, before that nasty cut cought up to Klitschko, and it was the ringside doctor who stopped it, not Vitali. Sure Lewis was past his prime at age 38, I won't try to say that he wasn't. But even a 38 year old Lewis was still better than a lot of great fighters, and Klitschko was dominating that fight. Just because Lennox managed to pull a stoppage out of his ass doesn't guarantee that Liston would do anything to him. Lewis was a totally different type of fighter with better boxing ability, and larger size to back it up.

Where in the blue fuck does all this nonsense come from about Vitali being a quitter?????

I agree that Liston could have beaten Vitali, but some here are acting like the possibility of the opposite occuring is something out of a fiction novel.

This is so much Klitschkonian drivel, man what happened to you?

You act like Lewis almost ripping his face off was a fluke, he 'pulled it out of his ass', no less.

And Lewis had "better boxing ability" than Sonny Liston? Ive never heard any knowledgable person even claim this.

Where in the blue fuck does all this nonsense come from about Vitali being a quitter?????

Because he quit.

In a fight you yourself claim he was domainating. Simple enough?

[mr. magoo]

I think the left hands Byrd was nailing him with had a lot to do with it. Thats no more speculative that this crap about how much pain you think klitschko was in and what he round he got injured. He quit, thats the truth :deal

Another poster already pointed out that evidence on film showed a translater discussing Vitali's shoulder injury from round 3 onward. Ask Mendoza to show proof of it, if you still don't believe it. If you've ever had a rotator cuff injury ( and I'm guessing you haven't ), its not like suffering a splinter in your finger. It hurts like hell, and basically limits or completely takes away the use of that particular arm. Can you imagine how much the effects must be amplified when you're in a boxing ring over several rounds, blocking and throwing punches? The guy had to be in so much pain, its incredible. And, what reason did he have to quit against Byrd? He was winning nearly every single round. You say I'm speculating here, but frankly, I think anyone who believes that a rotator cuff injury is caused by taking shots to the arm from Chris Byrd is the one who's imagining things.......

[mr. magoo]

=Polymath]This is so much Klitschkonian drivel, man what happened to you?



I think you've witnessed enough of my debates on the General forum to know that I am no nuthugger of Klitschko's.



You act like Lewis almost ripping his face off was a fluke, he 'pulled it out of his ass', no less.


It wasn't a fluke, but he was fortunate that things panned out when and how they did. Another round of the kind of beating that he was taking, and who knows what might have happened. People who were at ringside, said that they had never seen Lewis so exhausted or overwhelmed in his life. Sure, he was past his prime, but he in no way shape or form dominated his opponent that evening.


And Lewis had "better boxing ability" than Sonny Liston? Ive never heard any knowledgable person even claim this.


You've heard one say it now. Weather you think I'm knowledgable or not is up to you to decide, but personally I have seen Lewis outbox a lot more ranked fighters than I have seen Liston outbox. Sonny was most successful with who he was capable of utterly destroying, and not necessarily outpointing over many rounds.



Because he quit.

In a fight you yourself claim he was domainating. Simple enough


No it isn't simple enough. He quit because of a serious injury that he had sustained earlier in the fight, which had nothing to do with Chris Byrd's efforts. Saying that Byrd caused that injury is like saying that the President of the United States has control over when it rains, snows, etc.

[SuzieQ49]

but personally I have seen Lewis outbox a lot more ranked fighters than I have seen Liston outbox


I have seen liston outboxed in his prime. I have seen Lennox outboxed by 36 year old Ray mercer and 33 year old Frank Bruno.

[SuzieQ49]

He quit because of a serious injury that he had sustained earlier in the fight, which had nothing to do with Chris Byrd's efforts.

How are you so sure? Chris bryd is very good defensivley, is it not possible that vitali injured his shoulder missing bryd with one of his punches?


Also is it just a coincidence that another fighter who faced bryd....evander holyfield.......suffered a TORN rotator cuff injury early on against bryd, yet guess what holyfield fought for the whole 12 rounds with the injury? what does that tell you?

Is it just a coincidence two different fighters suffered rotator cuff injuries vs bryd? I think not, it was because of bryds defense

[Polymath]

For this matchup to be made, is liston allowed to take steroids just like vitali did?
These goons were in here the other day claiming the chances of Klitschko and Liston being on the juice were about the same :lol:

[SuzieQ49]

Sanders was coming off the best win of his career, and was a large hard hitting south paw who still had some of the fastest handspeed in the division despite his age. Saying that he was a weak opponent because he was 38 is just as misleading as saying Archie Moore and Joe Walcott were shot at the age of 38, and we both know they weren't. I agree that he could have been in better shape and fighting a tad more actively before meeting Vitali, but he was still a formidable opponent, who a lot of fighters were intentionally avoiding. Vitali took the fight, and won convincingly while taking some very solid shots.



Walcott and Moore kept themselves in GREAT fighting shape at their advanced age, and kept active fighting within months of fighting marciano.

Sanders showed up overweight, out of shape, had no stamina left after 2 rounds, and had been inactive for over 1 year. Now if moore or walcott came into the marciano fights in this kind of shape, I would totally degrade marcianos wins over these guys.


hard hitting south paw who still had some of the fastest handspeed in the division despite his age.

Don't tell me your one of those who think of sanders as a freak of nature one of a kind. Outside of Wlad, Sanders has absolutley jack shit on his resume, which downgrades wlad more than anything. Sanders was knocked out by nate tubbs and hasim rahman. sanders was viewed as a tuneup for wlad, nothing more than a old journeyman in boxing experts minds, yet after his Kayo of wlad wlad fans feel the need to pump up sanders as some freak of nature world beater.

[mr. magoo]

I have seen liston outboxed in his prime. I have seen Lennox outboxed by 36 year old Ray mercer and 33 year old Frank Bruno.

33?
Bruno was born in November of 1961, and fought Lewis in October of 1993. So how old would that make him Suzie? Common, you're 21 years old now. Counting should be pretty easy.
Bruno had his best career win yet to come against Oliver McCall. Bruno fought well against Lewis, but didn't finish the marathon. Lennox clobbered him.

He also looked unimpressive against Mercer, but was not outboxed.

[SuzieQ49]

These goons were in here the other day claiming the chances of Klitschko and Liston being on the juice were about the same :lol:

:lol: :lol: Funny stuff, especially considering vitali tested POSITIVE for steroids in the mid 1990s.

[Polymath]

:lol: :lol: Funny stuff, especially considering vitali tested POSITIVE for steroids in the mid 1990s.

He got booted off the UKRAINIAN Olympic team for juicing, do you have any idea how guilty that makes you? :lol: Its like being condemned by the Chinese for human rights abuses.

[SuzieQ49]

He got booted off the UKRAINIAN Olympic team for juicing, do you have any idea how guilty that makes you? :lol: Its like being condemned by the Chinese for human rights abuses.


:good Its ridiculous really some of the things Klitschko supporters say and try to hide.

[mr. magoo]

[quote=SuzieQ49]Walcott and Moore kept themselves in GREAT fighting shape at their advanced age, and kept active fighting within months of fighting marciano.



Yet one was a lightheavyweight and the other had failed on some 4 previous occasions to capture the crown. Face it, suzie those guys weren't immortal as you so often like to make them. Sanders was coming off a huge win, and you can't take that away.

Sanders showed up overweight, out of shape, had no stamina left after 2 rounds, and had been inactive for over 1 year.

The inactivity tid bit is correct, but having no stamina after 2 rounds is bullshit. He and klitschko were trading toe to toe in the 5th round, which got Larry Merchant saying " what a fight ". As for him being out of shape, I agree that he could have been 10 Lbs lighter, but it wasn't like he showed up totally out of competitive condition.


Now if moore or walcott came into the marciano fights in this kind of shape, I would totally degrade marcianos wins over these guys.



Not having a six pack, doesn't always equate to being deconditioned. If appearance meant everything, then both Klitschko's would have kicked the livin' shit out of Liston before ever getting in the ring with him.



Sanders was knocked out by nate tubbs and hasim rahman.

Hasim Rahman was a career world champion, who also beat Lennox Lewis, though I know you don't think much of Lewis so I guess its moot for me to bring it up. Sanders lost to Tubbs while he was still a work in progress. If you're not going to make concessions for him being such, then why not comment on Walcott's loss to 11-15 Johnny Allen. Of course, I sense that I'm going to here more about how Walcott had no amateur career right?

[mr. magoo]

:good Its ridiculous really some of the things Klitschko supporters say and try to hide.

I am not a Klit supporter just because I disagree with some of your ridiculous hypocritical nonsense. You're a far bigger nuthugger than anyone else on this board, and rating Liston at #2 all time only confirms it.

Klitschko admitted to the Ukranian athletic board that he was taking a steroid for a medical condition, but that it wasn't a performance enhancer. Frankly, I think its fishy myself, but you can't just make assumptions on an isolated case like that.

[ChrisPontius]

SuzieQ, i don't really understand you.

First you spend years of screaming that Walcott was still great and arguably at his peak at 37, but of course Sanders at 38 was old, shot, etc. Sanders still had his power, handspeed and a ton of experience.
Sanders was still one of the hardest chin checkers. Ask Bobby Czyz that, who took over 100 punches from Holyfield without going down but was lambasted in 2 rounds by Sanders.

Oh, and before you start "cruiserweight this cruiserweight that", realise that nearly all of Liston's wins come against cruiserwins.


Fact is that Vitali Klitschko would be one hell of a fight for Liston, because he has a big size advantage (something Liston is hardly tested against), he has a rock hard chin, a sick KO percentage, a lot of speed (we saw how Liston had trouble landing on speedy guys like Machen, Clay, even Besmanoff) and excellent stamina.

[Vanboxingfan]

I'd personally give Vitali an excellent chance of beating Liston, and I'm not particularly a V.K. fan. I've just followed boxing for some 30 years and time and time again when fighters have similar skill sets, the bigger stronger man usually wins. And while it can be argued Liston has better skills, I personally don't think they would be enough to compensate for the huge size difference.

One thing the Klitschko brothers bring into the ring, much like Lewis does, only to a lesser degree, is the ability to fight like huge men and use their size to their advantage. I'm not saying V.K. would win, but I would say it's a close call that could go either way.

[SuzieQ49]

First you spend years of screaming that Walcott was still great and arguably at his peak at 37, but of course Sanders at 38 was old, shot, etc.

Never did I say Sanders was shot when he fought vitali. All I said was he was out of shape. However Sanders was inactive for over one year, and showed up visibly overweight and out of shape. These are all things walcott never was at 37 years of age vs marciano/charles. walcott kept himself in great shape, unlike fat golfer corrie sanders.

Sanders still had his power, handspeed and a ton of experience.
Sanders was still one of the hardest chin checkers.

This is all pure speculation. remember, before knocking out wlad NO ONE even mentioned sanders when it came to discussing best contenders in the world, and no one thought highly of him.


Ask Bobby Czyz that, who took over 100 punches from Holyfield without going down but was lambasted in 2 rounds by Sanders.



Bobby Czyz is a sad story, but fighting wise wasn't he around 36-37 years old when he fought corrie sanders coming off over a 2 year layoff??. I have a soft spot for Bobby Czyz he had a wacked out personel life with his father.

[SuzieQ49]

Fact is that Vitali Klitschko would be one hell of a fight for Liston, because he has a big size advantage (something Liston is hardly tested against), he has a rock hard chin, a sick KO percentage, a lot of speed (we saw how Liston had trouble landing on speedy guys like Machen, Clay, even Besmanoff) and excellent stamina.


Fact is that Vitali Klitschko would be one hell of a fight for Liston, because he has a big size advantage

Liston has a 5" reach advantage and liston was not that small, he had superheavyweight dimensions and could easily carry extra weight with his frame. He is no smaller than Hasim rahman who vitali bailed out on.


a lot of speed (we saw how Liston had trouble landing on speedy guys like Machen, Clay, even Besmanoff) and excellent stamina

All these are your opinions. I dont think of speed when it comes to vitali. in fact he appears slow to me. I also dont like his punching technique and the way he throws arm punches. He also appears very uncoordinated. His stamina is no greater than listons, I hadvnt seem him fight on film at a workrate liston fought vs machen for 12.

[mr. magoo]

I'd personally give Vitali an excellent chance of beating Liston, and I'm not particularly a V.K. fan. I've just followed boxing for some 30 years and time and time again when fighters have similar skill sets, the bigger stronger man usually wins. And while it can be argued Liston has better skills, I personally don't think they would be enough to compensate for the huge size difference.

One thing the Klitschko brothers bring into the ring, much like Lewis does, only to a lesser degree, is the ability to fight like huge men and use their size to their advantage. I'm not saying V.K. would win, but I would say it's a close call that could go either way.

Very good post.

I too agree that this fight would not be a guaranteed win for either Liston or V.Klitschko, but I certainly think that its not entirely out of the question that Vitali could take it, and even if he didn't, it would be a close fight. Some seem to feel that just because Liston looked invincible against a 5'11", 190 LB Patterson who was knocked down 17 times in his career, that the same would apply to Vitali Klitschko who was nearly 6'8", 245 Lbs, and was never floored. I don't understand this menatality.

[SuzieQ49]

Going by Vitali's resume, how is it realistically possible to pick him over an ATG heavyweight? Head to head he never proved he could beat a great fighter, and against the two best heavyweights he fought he lost too. He fought well vs Lennox, but Lennox was 37 years old a career high 257lb noticeably out of shape and lethargic and vitali still managed to lose.


Some seem to feel that just because Liston looked invincible against a 5'11", 190 LB Patterson who was knocked down 17 times in his career, that the same would apply to Vitali Klitschko who was nearly 6'8", 245 Lbs, and was never floored. I don't understand this menatality.

Liston actually fought and dominated the young top prime contenders of his day. Vitali never recorded one win over a young in shape prime contender like liston did. Vitali also retired rather than fight Hasim Rahman after cancelling and resuming the fight 4 times, making fools out of the public and media.


You seem to be obsessed by Vitali's size, but if you dont have the all around skill, mental toughness, mentallity of a champion to go along with the size......than your just another big oaf.



What did Vitali do to prove himself a very good heavyweight outside of dominating ham and eggers?

[SuzieQ49]

33?
Bruno was born in November of 1961, and fought Lewis in October of 1993. So how old would that make him Suzie? Common, you're 21 years old now. Counting should be pretty easy.
Bruno had his best career win yet to come against Oliver McCall. Bruno fought well against Lewis, but didn't finish the marathon. Lennox clobbered him.

He also looked unimpressive against Mercer, but was not outboxed.


I scored the Ray Mercer fight 95-95 Even, I have watched it numerous times and lennox was outjabbed by mercer and looked befuddled the whole fight.



- Your right about bruno, I will concede to that.

[mr. magoo]

[
quote=SuzieQ49]Never did I say Sanders was shot when he fought vitali. All I said was he was out of shape. However Sanders was inactive for over one year, and showed up visibly overweight and out of shape. These are all things walcott never was at 37 years of age vs marciano/charles. walcott kept himself in great shape, unlike fat golfer corrie sanders.


These are true points, and I agree that Sanders was off for 13 months and showed up at 235 against Vitali, as opposed to 225 against Wlad. Still, he was in half way decent shape, showed great handspeed, and was coming off the best win of his career against the concencus best in the world, or second best given that Lewis was still active in early 2003. Nevertheless, Vitali won that fight convincingly and against a legitimate contender. Sanders was not great per say, but I would argue that he was a sound challenger who even at age 38 and with a 13 month layoff behind him could have competed against a lot of great fighters. Look at the way he destroyed Wlad. Look at the shots he tool from Vitali and still returned fire. He was a competitor Suzie, just like Walcott was. Let's try and be fare about this...



This is all pure speculation. remember, before knocking out wlad NO ONE even mentioned sanders when it came to discussing best contenders in the world, and no one thought highly of him.





Agreed, in fact it was I who supported your criticisms toward him a few days ago by pointing out that 10 fighters had rejected Wlad's offer to fight him in 2003.


Bobby Czyz is a sad story, but fighting wise wasn't he around 36-37 years old when he fought corrie sanders coming off over a 2 year layoff??. I have a soft spot for Bobby Czyz he had a wacked out personel life with his father.


Yes, this was not the best example of a fighter who Sanders beat. Czyz was clearly a shot fighter and one who had no business mixing it up with heavyweights, but Sanders did a pretty good job of dusting Bert Cooper, and outboxing a very tough Purity as well as a few others. Sanders had a thin resume, but that was partially because fighters were avoiding him. Look at what happened when he finally got his shot...

[mr. magoo]

I scored the Ray Mercer fight 95-95 Even, I have watched it numerous times and lennox was outjabbed by mercer and looked befuddled the whole fight.



- Your right about bruno, I will concede to that.

Fair enough,

I had the Mercer fight a draw as well.. Not the best performance for Lewis given Mercer's poor run over the previous 4 years.

[SuzieQ49]

Btw you know why lennox lewis won that frank bruno fight? His left hook. Lennox has one of the most underated left hooks out there, but Lennox was convinced his right hand was immortal, something godly that he went right hand crazy and tried to knock everyone out with it. When Lennox opened up his left hook finally vs bruno he knocked him out. Lennox should have used his left hook more

[SuzieQ49]

but that was partially because fighters were avoiding him.

This was the first good point I have heard regarding sanders. perhaps he was a bit of an elmer ray and cleveland williams in that regard of being avoided by contenders?

[mr. magoo]

This was the first good point I have heard regarding sanders. perhaps he was a bit of an elmer ray and cleveland williams in that regard of being avoided by contenders?

I don't know that much about Elmer Ray, but your point is well taken.

[mr. magoo]

=SuzieQ49]Going by Vitali's resume, how is it realistically possible to pick him over an ATG heavyweight? Head to head he never proved he could beat a great fighter, and against the two best heavyweights he fought he lost too.

Both were controversial outcomes, and ones that Vitali had little control over when it came time to the stoppages. There is more to boxing history than just trusting boxrec.


He fought well vs Lennox, but Lennox was 37 years old a career high 257lb noticeably out of shape and lethargic and vitali still managed to lose.

Joe Walcott was 37 years old, had lost 16 pro fights, was coming off a crippling career, and is commonly rated lower on an all time list than Lewis. Yet, he was leading the scorecards against Marciano, and if the fight had been scheduled for 12 rounds, he may have beaten the Rock. What would you have said then? He also floored Rocky in the first round and led him throught most of the fight, something that Lewis did not do to Klitschko.



Liston actually fought and dominated the young top prime contenders of his day. Vitali never recorded one win over a young in shape prime contender like liston did.

This is incorrect. Herbie Hide was 28 years old. He had a record of 31-1-0-30. He was in tremendous shape. In his only loss, he had a prime Riddick Bowe nearly out on his feet. He was holding the WBO title, making him an unmistakeably rated fighter. He was 6'2", 221 Lbs, and solid muscle, a description that most of Liston's opponents didn't quite fit.

Result- Vitali KO 2 Hide.

Notes- You might argue that Hide was not world class, or that he had no chin, but your original claim has already been well refuted.


Vitali also retired rather than fight Hasim Rahman after cancelling and resuming the fight 4 times, making fools out of the public and media.

Klitshcko had a well documented history of having recurring injuries, possibly due to his prior kickboxing career. I doubt that he and his handlers would go through the touble on 4 occasions, to pull a media stunt. His injuries were legit in my opinion, and frankly, I think it would have been just as easy if not easier to just retire, rather than try and pull a hoax. He was also supposed to fight Sam Peter this year for a world title and a lot of money, but he's still having trouble keeping his joints in shape, and is now considering running for Governor in the country that he lives in.

Is this all a media hoax too?



You seem to be obsessed by Vitali's size, but if you dont have the all around skill, mental toughness, mentallity of a champion to go along with the size......than your just another big oaf.



This is where we seem to have the most trouble agreeing. You have a 6'8, 245Lb muscle man, who:

1. was never floored or truly knocked down.

2. Has lost fewer rounds than anyone in history

3. Has the highest KO percentage of any fighter.

4. Has only lost two fights to highly rated fighters, in bouts that he was handedly winning, but was forced to resign against his own will.


Do you really think that this would be a fight between a small all time great fighter versus a mindless shithead who couldn't hold his own?


What did Vitali do to prove himself a very good heavyweight outside of dominating ham and eggers?


Well, if Wayne Bethea, Jimmy Summerlin, Marty Marshall and a few others weren't ham and eggers than I don't know what to tell you. He also looked like shit against a few of those guys. And frankly, I don't think that Klitschko's opponents were all ham and eggers.

[Polymath]

Both were controversial outcomes

:rofl


[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[SuzieQ49]

Well, if Wayne Bethea, Jimmy Summerlin, Marty Marshall and a few others that Liston either lost to or looked unimpressive against were better than Herbie Hide, Larry Donald, Corrie Sanders, Timo Hoffman, Vaugn Bean or Ross purity, than I must have gotten lost somewhere along the line.

You see its not those guys that Liston beat that I rate him highly for. Its the Eddie Machens, Zora Folleys, Cleveland Williams, Nino Valdez.........These were the top most dangerous contenders in the divsion, these were the men Cus Damato refused to throw in the ring vs floyd patterson.


I didnt see vitali taking on the Tuas, Ibeubuchis, Rahmans, brewsters, etc etc etc of his era.

Liston did not struggle in his prime, at least not compared to larry holmes, lennox lewis did in there prime vs top oppostiion.


This is where we seem to have the most trouble agreeing. You have a 6'8, 245Lb muscle man, who:

1. was never floored or truly knocked down.

2. Has lost fewer rounds than anyone in history

3. Has the highest KO percentage of any fighter.




Im not impressed with these numbers because of his lack of opposition against the top rated fighters of his era.

4. Has only lost two fights to highly rated fighters, in bouts that he was handedly winning, but was forced to resign against his own will.

He could have continued vs byrd, he was not forced to resign on his own will vs byrd.

Larry Mercant commentd after vitali quit "Jim, Vitali lacks the mentallity of a champion"

Do you really think that this would be a fight between a small all time great fighter versus a mindless shithead who couldn't hold his own?

No but he certainly was not lennox lewis, not even close. He was just another Buddy Baer type.




Klitshcko had a well documented history of having recurring injuries, possibly due to his prior kickboxing career. I doubt that he and his handlers would go through the touble on 4 occasions, to pull a media stunt. His injuries were legit in my opinion, and frankly, I think it would have been just as easy if not easier to just retire, rather than try and pull a hoax. He was also supposed to fight Sam Peter this year for a world title and a lot of money, but he's still having trouble keeping his joints in shape, and is now considering running for Governor in the country that he lives in.

Is this all a media hoax too?



So now hes backing out of another fight against a young prime top contender just like he did with rahman?


This is incorrect. Herbie Hide was 28 years old. He had a record of 31-1-0-30. He was in tremendous shape. In his only loss, he had a prime Riddick Bowe nearly out on his feet. He was holding the WBO title, making him an unmistakeably rated fighter. He was 6'2", 221 Lbs, and solid muscle, a description that most of Liston's opponents didn't quite fit.

Result- Vitali KO 2 Hide.

Notes- You might argue that Hide was not world class, or that he had no chin, but your original claim has already been well refuted.



History shows WBO is the weakest of titles, and isnt really a world title claim like WBC, IBF, WBA are.


Ill concede to Hide, although Hide was by no means one of the better heavyweight contenders of that era. not even close. He was more of a bert cooper type.

Joe Walcott was 37 years old, had lost 16 pro fights, was coming off a crippling career, and is commonly rated lower on an all time list than Lewis. Yet, he was leading the scorecards against Marciano, and if the fight had been scheduled for 12 rounds, he may have beaten the Rock. What would you have said then? He also floored Rocky in the first round and led him throught most of the fight, something that Lewis did not do to Klitschko.



Walcott was in great shape! if he had showed up to the marciano fight at a career high 210lb looking soft, slow, lethargic like lennox did.......I would defintley take points of marcianos victory.

By the way marciano beat walcott, Vitali LOST to Lennox.

Both were controversial outcomes, and ones that Vitali had little control over when it came time to the stoppages. There is more to boxing history than just trusting boxrec.


These are exuses, whether their credible or not. Vitali had 100% control over the Byrd quit job.

Also I must add Cuts are a part of the game, vitali was legit cut by one of lennoxs punches because vitali didnt know how to block. its vitalis fault he got hit and cut badly. He lost, uncontroversially.

[Polymath]

Also I must add Cuts are a part of the game, vitali was legit cut by one of lennoxs punches because vitali didnt know how to block. its vitalis fault he got hit and cut badly. He lost, uncontroversially.

Yup, listening to these Klitschkonians you'de think Vitali's face was ripped apart by a passing Eagle. Having your face pummeled into a grisly mess and the referee saving you from disfigurement is fairly UNcontrovesial, no?

[The Kurgan]

It's sad that these head-to-head hypothetical matches often go no deeper than "Boxer A has a better resume than Boxer B" which means little, or into vague generalisations such as "Bigger is better and being taller is da bomb".

It's sad, because as my post demonstrated, what we have here is two boxers with distinctive styles and very unusual physiques-

Vitali: one of the best heavyweights ever at fighting tall; an unusually busy superheavyweight; successful in spite of his crude technique.

Liston: a methodical, menacing figure who could outbox or outblast you; an intimidator with his imposing nature being compounded by his seek-and-destroy attitude in the ring.

Vitali: extremely tall; his relatively short arms allowed him to throw much shorter punches than most superheavyweights, while still reaping the benefits of his height.

Liston: a very broad boxer; he had the body of a gorilla, with his massive arms giving him a broader wingspan than most modern superheavyweights.

There is so much more to chew on here than tired old discussions of steroid use and shoulder injuries.

[SuzieQ49]

It's sad that these head-to-head hypothetical matches often go no deeper than "Boxer A has a better resume than Boxer B" which means little, or into vague generalisations such as "Bigger is better and being taller is da bomb".


Ok so who would win 48-1 Lamar Clark or 96-25 ezzard charles?

if we dont go by resumes for part of it, then how do we separate the fighters by class?

[SuzieQ49]

Yup, listening to these Klitschkonians you'de think Vitali's face was ripped apart by a passing Eagle

:lol: :lol:

[The Kurgan]

Ok so who would win 48-1 Lamar Clark or 96-25 ezzard charles?

Who said that we should use numerics in their stead?

if we dont go by resumes for part of it, then how do we separate the fighters by class?

I said that resumes had only a little role to play. They perform the frankly near-insignificant task of allowing us to contextualise a performance: so Ali looked utterly unbeatable against Brian London, but one considers the quality of Brian London when extrapolating this performance to other fights. This is why it is so essential for boxers to face as many tough opponents as possible in order for their skills to be properly evaluated. If Ali hadn't come back in 1970, for instance, we'd never know whether he could cope or not with his stylistic nemesis, a left-hook orientated swarmer.

At the same time, as in the business world, a candidate is so much more than a curriculum vitae. One could argue, for instance, that Ali had a much better resume going into the FOTC, but that didn't save him from his stylistic nemesis and the consequences of a flawed strategy. Equally, in head-to-head fights, I would favour Rocky Marciano to beat Larry Holmes, in spite of the fact that I consider Holmes's overall resume to be a bit better. The same goes for Hopkins vs. Hagler, Jefferies versus Dempsey, Bob Foster verus Roy Jones etc.

Liston would beat Klitschko because of the way they would match-up, not the way Liston beat Patterson, Machen or Folley.

[mr. magoo]

:rofl


[Only registered and activated users can see links]


So what? I have seen this picture before, and here is an even better one.


[Only registered and activated users can see links]


Who gives a shit? An ugly face doesn't erase the fact, that Klitschko was dominating the fight, and forced to resign because of the decision of a doctor. It was probably a good stoppage, but the fact is, he didn't quit, show lack of heart, nor lack of boxing ability.

[Vanboxingfan]

Going by Vitali's resume, how is it realistically possible to pick him over an ATG heavyweight? Head to head he never proved he could beat a great fighter, and against the two best heavyweights he fought he lost too. He fought well vs Lennox, but Lennox was 37 years old a career high 257lb noticeably out of shape and lethargic and vitali still managed to lose.

That version of Lewis, overweight or not, was no push over. He was determined to fight in the trenches and go toe to toe..that's a tough assignment for anyone. He wasn't about to get outboxed, that version of Lewis was either going to win or loose by KO.

As to the loss itself, I don't think it was that contriversal, V.K. may have been winning the boxing match, but when they were in the trenches fighting, it was Lewis who had the upper hand, particularly in the 6th, when he rocked V.K. with an uppercut and won the round on all 3 scorecards.

[Polymath]

It was probably a good stoppage, but the fact is, he didn't quit, show lack of heart, nor lack of boxing ability.

Posted the pic in response to you claiming his losses were both 'contoversial' - now you're admitting it was a good stoppage. So I guess you agree with me - nothing 'controversial' about it :good

[mr. magoo]

Posted the pic in response to you claiming his losses were both 'contoversial' - now you're admitting it was a good stoppage. So I guess you agree with me - nothing 'controversial' about it :good

Taking words out of context are we?

I clearly said that it was "probably" a good a stoppage, but the outcome was still controversial, and I stand by my claim that it had nothing to do with lack of heart or the inability to stay ahead on the cards-a part of my post which you blatatantly avoided responding to.

[Polymath]

Taking words out of context are we?

I clearly said that it was "probably" a good a stoppage, but the outcome was still controversial, and I stand by my claim that it had nothing to do with lack of heart or the inability to stay ahead on the cards-a part of my post which you blatatantly avoided responding to.

Okay so you 'probably' agree with me :rofl - I do apologise.

and I stand by my claim that it had nothing to do with lack of heart

:huh ...never claimed it did.

[Polymath]

Magoo, stop being so emotional in your new found Klitschko-love, you're just making more errors in continuity (which isnt surprising given some of the ranting tangents you've gone off on) - if i wanted to be an asshole about it I'd cut & paste them for the good folks. But I dont (and, frankly, I don't have the energy.)

[mr. magoo]

=SuzieQ49]You see its not those guys that Liston beat that I rate him highly for. Its the Eddie Machens, Zora Folleys, Cleveland Williams, Nino Valdez.........These were the top most dangerous contenders in the divsion, these were the men Cus Damato refused to throw in the ring vs floyd patterson.


Yes, but legacy wins in one's own time do not guarentee victory in a cross era matchup with someone from a totally different time period. I gave distinct reasons and characteristics that I felt set Vitali apart from the Pattersons, Foleys, Williams, Machens, etc, but you still seem to only be concerned with ring magazine ratings and comments about them from back in the day. You also, are quick to point out that Klitschko fought an old Sanders, but now you're mentioning Nino Valdez who was arguably further past his best, plus had infinately more losses.


I didnt see vitali taking on the Tuas, Ibeubuchis, Rahmans, brewsters, etc etc etc of his era.


Well, his brother is the concencus best in the world today, and Vitali defeated two men that his brother couldn't. I also wouldn't say that Hide, Donald, Sanders, Hoffman and some of the others were bums. As for Ibeabuchi, he went to jail with only 20 fights under his belt, and Vitali's injuries have kept him from facing Rahman, who frankly I think never possed a threat to him.


Liston did not struggle in his prime, at least not compared to larry holmes, lennox lewis did in there prime vs top oppostion.



Perhaps their prime lasted longer, and they faced better guys.



Im not impressed with these numbers because of his lack of opposition against the top rated fighters of his era.


He fought and defeated 4 ring rated opponents, ( a criterion that is a mandatory in your book ) and several others who were rated by the governing bodies, yet managed to survive boxing with a record of 35-2-0-34, and a list of all time unmatched statisitcs.



He could have continued vs byrd, he was not forced to resign on his own will vs byrd.



I have tried to explain this to you in just about every language except Hungarian, and still you cling to a technicality. In all likelyhood you've never seen this fight, nor suffered a rotator cuff injury, so let's just eject the Byrd fight from the debate, as it appears to be useless from both sides of the argument.



Larry Mercant commentd after vitali quit "Jim, Vitali lacks the mentallity of a champion"


Now you seem to hold what Larry Merchant says in high regard. However, when I rebuddled your falacious claim that Corrie Sanders gassed after 2 rounds against Klit by mentioning Merchant's comment in the 5th round " what a fight ", you ignored it.

I don't see how anyone can possibly maintain any degree of credibility with these types of double standards.


No but he certainly was not lennox lewis, not even close. He was just another Buddy Baer type.



Was Buddy Baer ever a world champion? I don't see how you can possibly make the comparison.





So now hes backing out of another fight against a young prime top contender just like he did with rahman?




The fuckin' guy hasn't fought in nearly 4 years and has suffered repeated injuries that were well documented. Is this what you would call a conventional ducking in the purist sense of the term.



History shows WBO is the weakest of titles, and isnt really a world title claim like WBC, IBF, WBA are.


The point is, he was rated.

Ill concede to Hide, although Hide was by no means one of the better heavyweight contenders of that era. not even close. He was more of a bert cooper type.

I suppose.




By the way marciano beat walcott, Vitali LOST to Lennox.


Marciano wasn't dominating that fight through the first 6 rounds, and in fact got put on his ass-something that never happened to Vitali. If that fight had been scheduled for 12 rounds, Rock would have lost. He beat a tiring veteran.



These are exuses, whether their credible or not. Vitali had 100% control over the Byrd quit job.


*****VOID******

Also I must add Cuts are a part of the game, vitali was legit cut by one of lennoxs punches because vitali didnt know how to block"

A man who was kicking the crap out of his opponent, plus retired with fewer lost rounds in the history of the division, doesn't know how to block?



[quote]He lost, uncontroversially

Tell that to the thousands of fans who booed the hell out of the verdict....

[mr. magoo]

Magoo, stop being so emotional in your new found Klitschko-love, you're just making more errors in continuity (which isnt surprising given some of the ranting tangents you've gone off on) - if i wanted to be an asshole about it I'd cut & paste them for the good folks. But I dont (and, frankly, I don't have the energy.)

Is this a discussion about boxing, or my feelings on the issue? And if you think I'm being unreasonable or giving factual errors, then feel free to comment on them. Keep in mind however, that this is the classic forum, and we don't use fabricated polls with biased propaganda to win the support of others.

Keep that shit in the general forum please.

[Polymath]

Keep that shit in the general forum please.

Confusing me with your new ally Window Maker? :huh

[Mendoza]

Magoo, stop being so emotional in your new found Klitschko-love, you're just making more errors in continuity (which isnt surprising given some of the ranting tangents you've gone off on) - if i wanted to be an asshole about it I'd cut & paste them for the good folks. But I dont (and, frankly, I don't have the energy.)


Polymath,

It is clear Lewis " escaped with a win ". He was down 4-2 on all three cards, and was dead tired. Lewis crashed down hard on his stool after round six. We all saw how much energy Vitali had left as soon as he learned the fight was stopped. Do not act as if the fight was in the bag for Lewis because it was not. Quite the opposite. Lewis won the fight, Vitlai won the event. Boxing needed a re-match.

Lewis said he would give a re-match, was offered $15,000,000.00 for the re-match, but retired. Translation, he knew Vitali was going to beat him.

Oh, one more thing. Vitlai took the fight on less than 2 weeks notice when he was training for a 10 rounder vs a no-name. If he had known it was Lewis all along, odds are he does even better.

It is plausible that Vitlai was Lennox Lewis best opponent beaten. Tyson and Holyfield were past their best. Just look at who they lost to post Lewis and you'll see.

[mr. magoo]

Confusing me with your new ally Window Maker? :huh

No, and I'll give you credit for not stooping to the level of such an ignoramous.

[Polymath]

Polymath,

It is clear Lewis " escaped with a win ". He was down 4-2 on all three cards, and was dead tired. Lewis crashed down hard on his stool after round six. We all saw how much energy Vitali had left as soon as he learned the fight was stopped. Do not act as if the fight was in the bag for Lewis because it was not. Quite the opposite. Lewis won the fight, Vitlai won the event. Boxing needed a re-match.

Lewis said he would give a re-match, was offered $15,000,000.00 for the re-match, but retired. Translation, he knew Vitali was going to beat him.

Oh, one more thing. Vitlai took the fight on less than 2 weeks notice when he was training for a 10 rounder vs a no-name. If he had known it was Lewis all along, odds are he does even better.

It is plausible that Vitlai was Lennox Lewis best opponent beaten. Tyson and Holyfield were past their best. Just look at who they lost to post Lewis and you'll see.

Do not act as if the fight was in the bag for Lewis because it was not.

VK was up on the cards, thats for sure.

It is plausible that Vitlai was Lennox Lewis best opponent beaten. Tyson and Holyfield were past their best. Just look at who they lost to post Lewis

Lets also have a look at what Klit did post Lewis...:yep Klitschko is defined by his loss to Lewis.

Lewis said he would give a re-match

When? When he was rushed AFTER the fight by the guy with his face hanging off (while Lennox was trying to give an interview) and confusedly responded 'Uh, sure' ? What the hell you expect him to say?

Lewis said he would give a re-match, was offered $15,000,000.00 for the re-match, but retired. Translation, he knew Vitali was going to beat him.

Right.


Some of you guys seem loathe to admit that CAUSING DAMAGE to your opponent is a pretty big part of boxing, ya know? If it was a 5 rd amateur fight Vitali may have gotten the nod; as it was, the referee made a merciful (non- controversial) stoppage in the interests of the safety of Klitschko.

[Samurai]

It is not unrealistic to think Vitali has a pretty good chance here.

[Mendoza]

Polymath VK was up on the cards, thats for sure.
Yep, and Lewis was a great fighter.


Lets also have a look at what Klit did post Lewis...:yep Klitschko is defined by his loss to Lewis.

Not so. Vitlai did a lot in amatuer and pro boxing. I think Lewis not taking the re-match also defines Vitali.


When? When he was rushed AFTER the fight by the guy with his face hanging off (while Lennox was trying to give an interview) and confusedly responded 'Uh, sure' ? What the hell you expect him to say?
Lewis said in various newspapers he would fight. He talked junk, then try to sneak out in the middle of the night.


Some of you guys seem loathe to admit that CAUSING DAMAGE to your opponent is a pretty big part of boxing, ya know? If it was a 5 rd amateur fight Vitali may have gotten the nod; as it was, the referee made a merciful (non- controversial) stoppage in the interests of the safety of Klitschko.

Lewis fought dirty, used his head, hit and held, pushed Vitlay down un-purpose, etc...the ref did little to enfore the rules. While the cut was bad, it was under control and not bleeding badly when the fight was stopped. Lewis eyes were more swollen ( Not to be confuses with cuts ), and he was also cut.

We needed a re-match.

[Vanboxingfan]

Yep, and Lewis was a great fighter.
Not so. Vitlai did a lot in amatuer and pro boxing. I think Lewis not taking the re-match also defines Vitali..

I disagree. If Lewis took a fight with someone else or was younger I'd agree, but at his age his retirement was more about Lewis and what he felt he'd given to the sport and where he was in terms of his desire to train etc. than it was about Vitali.


Lewis said in various newspapers he would fight. He talked junk, then try to sneak out in the middle of the night. ..

This is simply too biased of a comment to respond to.




Lewis fought dirty, used his head, hit and held, pushed Vitlay down un-purpose, etc...the ref did little to enfore the rules. While the cut was bad, it was under control and not bleeding badly when the fight was stopped. Lewis eyes were more swollen ( Not to be confuses with cuts ), and he was also cut.

We needed a re-match.

Lewis never fought overly dirty..boxing matches at that level are never picnics. The cut was horrendous, I find it amazing that V.K. fans wouldn't have more respect for the safety of their favourite fighter than they do. V.K. was risking serious and permanent vision impairment and any idiot could see that. Add to that, after the 3rd round it was obvious to all, that V.K. was on borrowed time and needed to close the show within the next couple of rounds, he simply wasn't able to do it, and as a result he lost, and rightfully so.

[ChrisPontius]

Here is another Larry Merchant quote, after the second Liston-Clay fight: "There was a punch. A hard punch that connected and it knocked Liston out".

Here's another Merchant jewel:


WLtPy42LhGM

[Mendoza]

Vanboxingfan I disagree. If Lewis took a fight with someone else or was younger I'd agree, but at his age his retirement was more about Lewis and what he felt he'd given to the sport and where he was in terms of his desire to train etc. than it was about Vitali.

No so. Lewis signed to fight Vitlai with his production Lion promotions, then never fought Vitali...so Vitali sued. When Kirk Johnson dropped out, Lewis made the fight with Vitali.


Lewis never fought overly dirty..boxing matches at that level are never picnics. The cut was horrendous, I find it amazing that V.K. fans wouldn't have more respect for the safety of their favourite fighter than they do. V.K. was risking serious and permanent vision impairment and any idiot could see that. Add to that, after the 3rd round it was obvious to all, that V.K. was on borrowed time and needed to close the show within the next couple of rounds, he simply wasn't able to do it, and as a result he lost, and rightfully so.


Lewis never fought overly dirty? Did you see the Grant fight. Lewis held his head with one arm, and then belted Grant with his uppercut with the other. Did you see the Tyson fight when Lewis pushed Tyson down? In the Vitlai fight Lewis held then hit the kidneys, used his dreadlocks on Vitlai's face a few times, pushed Vitlai down, and flopped his weight down upon him. Watch it in slow motion, it was deliberate push down.

[inchpunch]

For punching power alone i wouldn't put Vitali in the top 100 p4p. All of his knock outs come from damage over time, a cumulative build up; It also must be noted that this is against b level opposition. He has average power.

Vitali had destructive power earlier in his career. Whe he injured his hands, he changed to throw punches with about 80% power. While he stopped trying to take out his opponent with one punch, he threw more punches with good power than most fighters. Plus, he had the best anticipation of any big HW I have ever seen. His movement looked awkward because of his lanky frame, but his reflexes were absolutely amazing.

Liston fought in a different era, when fighters like Patterson were Heavyweights. Patterson would be a small cruiserweight today. Liston was a big guy in his era, he would probably not survive two round if he would go toe to toe with Lennox Lewis. I give Liston the better resume, but H2H VK demolishes him. The way to beat VK would be to carefully outbox him. An aggressive style is probably a doomed way of fighting VK.

[JohnThomas1]

It is clear Lewis " escaped with a win ".

Biased speculation. Anyone would think it was Lewis with half his face ripped off winning on a technicality the way you describe it.

Lewis said he would give a re-match, was offered $15,000,000.00 for the re-match, but retired. Translation, he knew Vitali was going to beat him.

Biased speculation. More like Lewis realised he was well and truly fading and decided it was time to get out. A great retirement too. Only the man himself knows whether he can get "up" for matches anymore. Lewis didn't need the money, that's for certain. When you don't have it anymore, you simply don't have it.

[Sonny's jab]

I never understand that Klitschko-supporter criticism of Lennox Lewis. It goes something like :

1. Lewis retired because he realized he could not beat Vitali in a rematch.
But ....
2. Lewis should have fought Vitali in a rematch.

:lol:

Yeah, like Lewis is supposed to make the wrong decision, get beat up, hang on too long just as he had always vowed NOT to do .... just so Vitali can look good ??

[JohnThomas1]

I never understand that Klitschko-supporter criticism of Lennox Lewis. It goes something like :

1. Lewis retired because he realized he could not beat Vitali in a rematch.
But ....
2. Lewis should have fought Vitali in a rematch.

:lol:

Yeah, like Lewis is supposed to make the wrong decision, get beat up, hang on too long just as he had always vowed NOT to do .... just so Vitali can look good ??

And that's assuming Vitali won at all.

[Vaile]

Like it or not Klitschko is defined by the Lewis loss. What did he do post fight? Lets be honest, it was a god awful performance by Lewis and the fight was still very close, taking away the fact that Vitali's face was on the verge of permanent damage. if the fight had gone on his corner would either have thrown in the towel, he would have got knocked out or he would have quit. None of these eventualities materialised because the referee did his job. Credit to him it was a great fight and he held his own. Without the cut in a rematch i would bet on him over Lewis because Lewis was getting old and was declining as a fighter; prime for prime Vitali gets knocked out. Lewis chose the right time to quit, you can't go on forever.

[Sonny's jab]

And that's assuming Vitali won at all.

Well, that's the absurdity of it.
We're supposed to concede that Lewis thought he couldn't win but we're also supposed to condemn him for not taking the fight.

Somehow we're supposed to think lowly of Lennox for promising Vitali a shot and then later, on thoughtful consideration, deciding that he should retire.

Never mind that Lennox had been talking of his retirement since '99 or '00, and that he was in fact assumed to be on the brink of announcing his official retirement for about 8 months after he beat Tyson. Obviously his heart wasn't in it any more.

Nevermind the fact that Lewis relinquished his title, and invited and encouraged Klitschko and the other leading heavyweights to "build their own legacy".

He retired, he bailed out, he went civilian, he gave up being a champion boxer, he walked away, that's a choice he made. Surely every man has a right to do so. Do boxing fans forget these champions are human beings too?
It's particularly ridiculous from those Klitschko-supporters who are so quick to defend their man for cancelling fights at late-notice, fights that have actually been SIGNED and arranged, concrete fights that much time has been invested in. But Lewis is "obliged" (through honour?)to risk brain damage yet again (as fighters do every time they enter the ring) simply because he said he'd fight Klitschko before deciding to retire.

(And this is coming from no fan of Lewis. I think he's ridiculously overrated as a fighter, and he often had a unpleasant public persona, including some of his comments and attitude after the Klitschko fight)

[mr. magoo]

Well, that's the absurdity of it.
We're supposed to concede that Lewis thought he couldn't win but we're also supposed to condemn him for not taking the fight.

Somehow we're supposed to think lowly of Lennox for promising Vitali a shot and then later, on thoughtful consideration, deciding that he should retire.

Never mind that Lennox had been talking of his retirement since '99 or '00, and that he was in fact assumed to be on the brink of announcing his official retirement for about 8 months after he beat Tyson. Obviously his heart wasn't in it any more.

Nevermind the fact that Lewis relinquished his title, and invited and encouraged Klitschko and the other leading heavyweights to "build their own legacy".

He retired, he bailed out, he went civilian, he gave up being a champion boxer, he walked away, that's a choice he made. Surely every man has a right to do so. Do boxing fans forget these champions are human beings too?
It's particularly ridiculous from those Klitschko-supporters who are so quick to defend their man for cancelling fights at late-notice, fights that have actually been SIGNED and arranged, concrete fights that much time has been invested in. But Lewis is "obliged" (through honour?)to risk brain damage yet again (as fighters do every time they enter the ring) simply because he said he'd fight Klitschko before deciding to retire.

(And this is coming from no fan of Lewis. I think he's ridiculously overrated as a fighter, and he often had a unpleasant public persona, including some of his comments and attitude after the Klitschko fight)

A very fair post. For the record, I don't try and discredit Lewis for not fighting Klitshko again, and nor do I take his victory away from him. This thread was started by me to illustrate a point that I feel Vitali Klitschko could have given Sonny Liston some problems. The issue of the Klitschko-Lewis fight only comes up, when critics of Vitali try and use that fight to illustrate why Liston or other past greats would beat him. I do not give this thought process much credit. Although Lewis was clearly past his prime and heading for the exit at that stage door, he was still very competitive along with having a size and a fighting style that made him dissimilar to Sonny Liston. What's more, Vitali was not even dominated in this fight, but suffered a cut, which can happen to anybody. For all of the above reasons, I really don't see why the Lewis and especially Byrd fights are commonly used by detractors to claim Vitali couldn't compete against a great fighter.

[SuzieQ49]

Yes, but legacy wins in one's own time do not guarentee victory in a cross era matchup with someone from a totally different time period. I gave distinct reasons and characteristics that I felt set Vitali apart from the Pattersons, Foleys, Williams, Machens, etc, but you still seem to only be concerned with ring magazine ratings and comments about them from back in the day. You also, are quick to point out that Klitschko fought an old Sanders, but now you're mentioning Nino Valdez who was arguably further past his best, plus had infinately more losses.

Well I disagree, you cant separate vitlali from the pattersons, machens, folleys, williams he did not do enough to prove himself above these men.


Valdez was 34, weighed in around his prime weight, sanders was 38 10lb overweight.....Valdez was ranked # 2 going into 1959, sanders was WBO champ, Valdez beat 3 top 10 ranked contenders the year before, sanders beat 1. You can make all speculation you want, but I thought I would present to you some viable facts. Anyway this is off topic.......and Valdez isnt even one of listons best wins, while sanders is vitalis best win.

, and Vitali's injuries have kept him from facing Rahman, who frankly I think never possed a threat to him.

These are exuses. who postpones a fight 4 times waits until a week before the fight and suddenly retires?? horrible timing


Well, his brother is the concencus best in the world today, and Vitali defeated two men that his brother couldn't.

True but in hindsight we realize Purrity was just a trialhorse, and sanders was much of the same for the majority of his career. it seems purrity and sanders whole legacy derives off their upset wins over wlad, which makes wlad look worse than he is.






I also wouldn't say that Hide, Donald, Sanders, Hoffman and some of the others were bums


All these men are not world beater, nor are they considered some of the better contenders of their era. in fact donald was a journeyman who never beat a single ranked fighter in his life......Hoffman was C level at best.


Perhaps their prime lasted longer, and they faced better guys.

Or perhaps Liston was just better


He fought and defeated 4 ring rated opponents, ( a criterion that is a mandatory in your book ) and several others who were rated by the governing bodies, yet managed to survive boxing with a record of 35-2-0-34, and a list of all time unmatched statisitcs.



Out of shape 38 year old corrie sanders is one because he was WBO champ, WBO champ Herbie Hide, 30lb overweight harpooned whale kirk johnson, and who else?????



et managed to survive boxing with a record of 35-2-0-34, and a list of all time unmatched statisitcs.

I am still umimpressed by his lack of competition in one of the weakest eras in heavyweight history


Now you seem to hold what Larry Merchant says in high regard. However, when I rebuddled your falacious claim that Corrie Sanders gassed after 2 rounds against Klit by mentioning Merchant's comment in the 5th round " what a fight ", you ignored it.

I don't see how anyone can possibly maintain any degree of credibility with these types of double standards.


what do you want me to say? Ill take the quote for what it is. Never did I say sanders vs Vitali was not an exciting fight all I said was sanders lack of shape caused him to be punched out after 2 rounds.



Was Buddy Baer ever a world champion? I don't see how you can possibly make the comparison.


Was vitali a world champion? he lost to the MAN. All he did was win the weakish WBO title of an inactive overweight old man. If buddy baer had Alhpa titles back in his day im sure he could have done the same thing vitali did.


The fuckin' guy hasn't fought in nearly 4 years and has suffered repeated injuries that were well documented. Is this what you would call a conventional ducking in the purist sense of the term.

more exuses for vitali. He claimed he was going to fight Hasim rahman, claimed he is going to fight sam peter, then when the fights signed and ready to go.....he backs out. why does he fool the public so much? you like the way he messes around with peoples heads?


Marciano wasn't dominating that fight through the first 6 rounds, and in fact got put on his ass-something that never happened to Vitali. If that fight had been scheduled for 12 rounds, Rock would have lost. He beat a tiring veteran.


Vitali LOST to a Tiring Veteran.


A man who was kicking the crap out of his opponent, plus retired with fewer lost rounds in the history of the division, doesn't know how to block?

He didnt block that certain punch which ripped open half his face.

Tell that to the thousands of fans who booed the hell out of the verdict....

no fan likes to see fights stopped on cuts, but in the mids of everyone who saw vitalis face.....it was an uncontroversial stoppage.

[Vanboxingfan]

No so. Lewis signed to fight Vitlai with his production Lion promotions, then never fought Vitali...so Vitali sued. When Kirk Johnson dropped out, Lewis made the fight with Vitali..

Your having trouble following your own train of throught. Your post specifically referred to the rematch, not the initial fight.



Lewis never fought overly dirty? Did you see the Grant fight. Lewis held his head with one arm, and then belted Grant with his uppercut with the other. Did you see the Tyson fight when Lewis pushed Tyson down? In the Vitlai fight Lewis held then hit the kidneys, used his dreadlocks on Vitlai's face a few times, pushed Vitlai down, and flopped his weight down upon him. Watch it in slow motion, it was deliberate push down.

First of all, once again your comments were confined to the Vitali fight. And give me a break about the dreadlocks bullshit. Iv'e seen the fight numerous times and the god damn excusses V.K.'s come up with never ceases to amaze me. I've never seen a more vocal bunch of winers in my life.

[Vanboxingfan]

Like it or not Klitschko is defined by the Lewis loss. What did he do post fight? Lets be honest, it was a god awful performance by Lewis and the fight was still very close, taking away the fact that Vitali's face was on the verge of permanent damage. if the fight had gone on his corner would either have thrown in the towel, he would have got knocked out or he would have quit. None of these eventualities materialised because the referee did his job. Credit to him it was a great fight and he held his own. Without the cut in a rematch i would bet on him over Lewis because Lewis was getting old and was declining as a fighter; prime for prime Vitali gets knocked out. Lewis chose the right time to quit, you can't go on forever.

Nicely summed up.

[Vanboxingfan]

A very fair post. For the record, I don't try and discredit Lewis for not fighting Klitshko again, and nor do I take his victory away from him. This thread was started by me to illustrate a point that I feel Vitali Klitschko could have given Sonny Liston some problems. The issue of the Klitschko-Lewis fight only comes up, when critics of Vitali try and use that fight to illustrate why Liston or other past greats would beat him. I do not give this thought process much credit. Although Lewis was clearly past his prime and heading for the exit at that stage door, he was still very competitive along with having a size and a fighting style that made him dissimilar to Sonny Liston. What's more, Vitali was not even dominated in this fight, but suffered a cut, which can happen to anybody. For all of the above reasons, I really don't see why the Lewis and especially Byrd fights are commonly used by detractors to claim Vitali couldn't compete against a great fighter.

Absence any comments which discredit Lewis' win over Vitali, which to me was not only legitimate but should be commended given Vitali's attributes as a fighter, I fully agree. I think Vitali would be a handful for almost any ATG, including Liston. And Superheavy Weight, that uses his size to his advantage, has a good chin, decent skills and a lot of heart, is going to be a tough match for anyone. And I for one am prepared to give Vitali the benefit of the doubt in the Byrd fight, expecially given the guts and determination against Lewis. And just as I don't define Duran's career by his second fight against SRL, neither do I define Vitali's career on the fight he had with Byrd, or Lewis' career on the first Rahman match, or Foreman's career on the Young fight, it's the totality of their careers that have to be examined, when evaluating a mythical H2H outcome, not just their worst fights.

[JohnThomas1]

Well, that's the absurdity of it.
We're supposed to concede that Lewis thought he couldn't win but we're also supposed to condemn him for not taking the fight.

Somehow we're supposed to think lowly of Lennox for promising Vitali a shot and then later, on thoughtful consideration, deciding that he should retire.

Never mind that Lennox had been talking of his retirement since '99 or '00, and that he was in fact assumed to be on the brink of announcing his official retirement for about 8 months after he beat Tyson. Obviously his heart wasn't in it any more.

Nevermind the fact that Lewis relinquished his title, and invited and encouraged Klitschko and the other leading heavyweights to "build their own legacy".

He retired, he bailed out, he went civilian, he gave up being a champion boxer, he walked away, that's a choice he made. Surely every man has a right to do so. Do boxing fans forget these champions are human beings too?
It's particularly ridiculous from those Klitschko-supporters who are so quick to defend their man for cancelling fights at late-notice, fights that have actually been SIGNED and arranged, concrete fights that much time has been invested in. But Lewis is "obliged" (through honour?)to risk brain damage yet again (as fighters do every time they enter the ring) simply because he said he'd fight Klitschko before deciding to retire.

(And this is coming from no fan of Lewis. I think he's ridiculously overrated as a fighter, and he often had a unpleasant public persona, including some of his comments and attitude after the Klitschko fight)

That's a superb post, and one i didn't expect on this topic. Not much more to add to that one, excellent.

[RoccoMarciano]

That's a superb post, and one i didn't expect on this topic. Not much more to add to that one, excellent.

Good post. I tend to think rather highly of Lewis, however. Call me stupid.... as I'm sure some will :lol:

[JohnThomas1]

Good post. I tend to think rather highly of Lewis, however. Call me stupid.... as I'm sure some will :lol:

Well i rate him #4.

[Mendoza]

Vanboxingfan
First of all, once again your comments were confined to the Vitali fight. And give me a break about the dreadlocks bullshit. Iv'e seen the fight numerous times and the god damn excusses V.K.'s come up with never ceases to amaze me. I've never seen a more vocal bunch of winers in my life.

Many fighters have complained about dreadlocks, and Lewis tied up dread lock hair most certianly came into contact with Vitlai's face / cut region.

The vocal part for me is there was NO RE-MATCH. Lewis did not want it. He knew he would likley lose.

[Mendoza]

SuzieQ49 Well I disagree, you cant separate vitlali from the pattersons, machens, folleys, williams he did not do enough to prove himself above these men.

I am sorry but this is laughable. Vitali proved more than Machen, Folley, or Williams, and he would eat Patterson alive if they ever meet in the ring.


Valdez was 34, weighed in around his prime weight, sanders was 38 10lb overweight.....Valdez was ranked # 2 going into 1959, sanders was WBO champ, Valdez beat 3 top 10 ranked contenders the year before, sanders beat 1. You can make all speculation you want, but I thought I would present to you some viable facts. Anyway this is off topic.......and Valdez isnt even one of listons best wins, while sanders is vitalis best win.

Sanders is better than Valdes. He hits harder, punches faster, is bigger, and is not afraid to mix it up. The contenders that Valdes beat were small people, who for the most part could not hit anywhere near as hard as Sanders could. Valdes lost a lot...sometimes to tiral horses and journeyman. Sanders did not.


These are exuses. who postpones a fight 4 times waits until a week before the fight and suddenly retires?? horrible timing

An injury excuse to pull out of a fight happens all the time in boxing. You cannot compare the politics now to the 50's.


True but in hindsight we realize Purrity was just a trialhorse, and sanders was much of the same for the majority of his career. it seems purrity and sanders whole legacy derives off their upset wins over wlad, which makes wlad look worse than he is.

Purrity was a solid journeyman who was extremely difficult to stop. In hindsight many of the ranked fighters in the 50’s and 60’s had records similar to Purrity’s. Purrity could very well be " rated " in down era's of boxing. Sanders would certainly be a contender in the 50's to early 60's, and rest assured he would do funny things to the legs of many of the smaller fighters in the 50's to early 60's.

[SuzieQ49]

Sanders is better than Valdes. He hits harder, punches faster, is bigger, and is not afraid to mix it up. The contenders that Valdes beat were small people, who for the most part could not hit anywhere near as hard as Sanders could. Valdes lost a lot...sometimes to tiral horses and journeyman. Sanders did not


You have seen only one fight of Nino Valdez, is that enough to make full judgement on him? I even uploaded the huricane jackson-valdez fight for you in what was nino valdez peak performane blowing away a durable contender in jackson in 2 rounds, and you refused to watch it.

Valdez was an annuel Ring Magazine # 1 contender 2 years running, and a top 10 ring Magazine contender 6 times. Corrie Sanders only a ring magazine top 10 fighter twice.

Valdez was a better fighter than Corrie Sanders. Valdez beat 10 Contenders ranked in the top 10 by Ring Magazine. In Comparison Sanders only beat 1. Thats a ratio of 10/1 thats grossely in favor of valdez. Valdez clearly proved himself far more than sanders.


Valdez on film was a better fighter........I like his standup teofolo stevenson cuban boxer-puncher style......valdez had an excellent jab that would really bust up corrie sanders. Valdez was a better boxer than corrie, but had the punching tools to take corrie out.


as far as losses to trialhorses, Corrie was knocked out by the immortal NATE TUBBS!


Nino Valdez was seen as a genuine established dangerous heavyweight contender for patterson and marcianos crown. Corrie Sanders was seen as a journeyman 2nd rate fighter who made a career out of one fight.


The vocal part for me is there was NO RE-MATCH. Lewis did not want it. He knew he would likley lose.


Lennox was 38 years old far past his prime,tired, out of shape.......why should he be forced to fight a rematch.......why shouldnt he be allowed to retire at such an advanced age?



Also why critisize lennox for not rematching vitali while you dont critisize holmes for never rematching spoon, truth williams, or norton? a bit of a double standard?


I am sorry but this is laughable. Vitali proved more than Machen, Folley, or Williams, and he would eat Patterson alive if they ever meet in the ring.

Exactley how did vitali prove himself more than folley, machen, williams? by beating a tired 38 year old fat golfer and a harpooned whale? LOL

and he would eat Patterson alive if they ever meet in the ring

This is all pure speculation. I suspect patterson would do quite well vs vitali.





An injury excuse to pull out of a fight happens all the time in boxing. You cannot compare the politics now to the 50's.



all the time? name me one fighter who postponed a fight 4 times after agreeing publicly to the fight and even doing the pre fight staredown only then to retire a week before the fight took place?



Purrity was a solid journeyman who was extremely difficult to stop. In hindsight many of the ranked fighters in the 50’s and 60’s had records similar to Purrity’s. Purrity could very well be " rated " in down era's of boxing. Sanders would certainly be a contender in the 50's to early 60's, and rest assured he would do funny things to the legs of many of the smaller fighters in the 50's to early 60's.

Ross Purrity was never a ranked contender, he was a Journeyman, no one would not even be mentioning his name right if not for wlad exposing on of his own flaws and running out of gas.



Sanders would certainly be a contender in the 50's to early 60's

Pure speculation...if sanders couldnt cut the mustard in the weakest era in heavyweight history, I dont think he would do much in other eras

and rest assured he would do funny things to the legs of many of the smaller fighters in the 50's to early 60's.


more pure speculation .....not good evidence to back this up.

[Vanboxingfan]

The vocal part for me is there was NO RE-MATCH. Lewis did not want it. He knew he would likley lose.

This has been rehashed to death. The bottom line is Vitali was fighting for the championship of the world, most luckly, and skilled, enough to get a shot, only get one. And unfortunately for him he lost, in a completely legitimate way, namely cuts..not one, not even two, but several. He knew in the 3rd round he was cut badly and the onus was on him to close the show before the doctor stopped the fight, as anyone with an ounce of boxing knowledge knew a stoppage due to that cut was a real possibility. Dispite this knowledge he was unable to get the job done. That's pretty much the story.

The story isn't about a rematch, that's nothing more than a pathetic excuss. The real story is about Vitali loosing when it counted. If he'd won, we wouldn't even be discussing rematch.

[Mendoza]

SuzieQ49 You have seen only one fight of Nino Valdez, is that enough to make full judgement on him? I even uploaded the huricane jackson-valdez fight for you in what was nino valdez peak performane blowing away a durable contender in jackson in 2 rounds, and you refused to watch it.

Laughable again. No I did not refuse to watch Valdez vs Jackson. The link was not working for me. I have seen Valdes before vs Satterfield. I own the full fight. Satterfield who was known for a suspect chin had no issues taking a sometimes timid Valdes punhces. Hmmm....


Valdez was an annuel Ring Magazine # 1 contender 2 years running, and a top 10 ring Magazine contender 6 times. Corrie Sanders only a ring magazine top 10 fighter twice.

Vladez was #1 in a down time of boxing when many fighters where old or had poor records. Marciano should have fought him before Charels.


Valdez was a better fighter than Corrie Sanders. Valdez beat 10 Contenders ranked in the top 10 by Ring Magazine. In Comparison Sanders only beat 1. Thats a ratio of 10/1 thats grossely in favor of valdez. Valdez clearly proved himself far more than sanders.

Valdes lost a lot more than Sanders did, did not beat anyone as good as Wlad. Furthermore, Sanders absolutely crushed blown up crusier in short order. The size Valdes often fought. See the Czyz, Deleon, or Nelson fight. As for Sanders beaign top 10 ring magazine guys, he beat several of them who were ranked or champions at crusier weight. I compeltely disagree. Valdes was not better than Sanders. Valdes lost 19 times, and was Ko'd muyltiple times by no-names, and lacked the fire needed to win on more than one occasion.


Valdez on film was a better fighter........I like his standup teofolo stevenson cuban boxer-puncher style......valdez had an excellent jab that would really bust up corrie sanders. Valdez was a better boxer than corrie, but had the punching tools to take corrie out.

If Valdes could not hurt Satterfield......he is not hurting Sanders. Sanders took Rhaman and Vitali's shot before going out late, and I know you think Vitlai hits harder than Valdez.


as far as losses to trialhorses, Corrie was knocked out by the immortal NATE TUBBS!

Ok, 1 loss to a then 12-1 Tubbs. Gratned. Now please eplains why Valdes lost to the following:

KO'd by a 1-1 Diaz:lol:
KO'd again by a 3-4 Diaz:lol:
KO'd by a 9-14 Milibrian :lol:
Lost on point to a 7-1 McBride
Ko'd by a medium punching and green 14-0 Eddie Machen
KO'd by a 19-3-2 fighter in Powell

Now, do who lost more to trial horses Sanders or Valdez? You're not a bad guy SuzieQ, just for Pete's sake out grow your bais, stop with the double standards and embrace the facts.


Lennox was 38 years old far past his prime,tired, out of shape.......why should he be forced to fight a rematch.......why shouldnt he be allowed to retire at such an advanced age?

Lewis said he would give a re-match and talked up the fight. If Walcott at age 38 deserved a re-match vs Marciano, then why not Lewis?


Also why critisize lennox for not rematching vitali while you dont critisize holmes for never rematching spoon, truth williams, or norton? a bit of a double standard?

Nope. Holmes was active dring an era of alphabet politcs. Norton and Spoon had other options too. Norton pretty much went south after the tough fight with Holmes. 'Spoon deserved a re-match vs Holmes, but as you know Don King had it out for 'Spoon. Holmes pretty much foguth one good guy a year until he lost, and that is enough for an older champion. I suppose Holmes could have re-matched Carl Williams to tie Marciano's record, but the public did not want to see that fight.


Exactley how did vitali prove himself more than folley, machen, williams? by beating a tired 38 year old fat golfer and a harpooned whale? LOL

He was ring magaizne champion had a better record, was far more dominating in the ring. That's how.


all the time? name me one fighter who postponed a fight 4 times after agreeing publicly to the fight and even doing the pre fight staredown only then to retire a week before the fight took place?

Any fighter who was injured in trainning to the point of needing necessary surgery pulls out of the fight. Tyson pulled out or postponed more fights than any fighter I can think of.


Ross Purrity was never a ranked contender, he was a Journeyman, no one would not even be mentioning his name right if not for wlad exposing on of his own flaws and running out of gas.

Purrity was alaphabet ranked when he beat Wlad. He drew with Morrison ( and might have deserved a SD win ) Ko'd a one time ranked G. Gonzlaez, and KO'd a one time ranked Joe Hipp. I'm not saying Purrity was a top fighter, but he was a very good joruneyman capable of making it the distance vs top rated guys.


Pure speculation...if sanders couldnt cut the mustard in the weakest era in heavyweight history, I dont think he would do much in other eras

Weakest era of heavyweigh thistory? Hardly, try the early to mid 30's, the 40's, or the mid to late 50's pre Liston. You won't see any older, smaller sub 200 pound, chinny, non power punching, shaky joruneyman like record fighters ranked today at heavyweight! Those guys are reseved to being ranked in down eras of heavyweight boxing, which I mentioned above.

[mr. magoo]

SuzieQ49]Well I disagree, you cant separate vitlali from the pattersons, machens, folleys, williams he did not do enough to prove himself above these men.


Oh, I think we can. Vitali was never floored, or dominated in a pro fight. He had the higest KO ratio of a non-lineal, titlist ( excluding George Foreman ), of anyone in history. He had the highest percentage of rounds won of anyone also. As for wins, I'd say his victories over Sanders, Hide, Donald, Johnson, Hoffman, Purity and Williams were not necessarily better but certainly on par with those of C. Williams, Zora Folley, and Eddie Machen.


Valdez was 34, weighed in around his prime weight, sanders was 38 10lb overweight.....Valdez was ranked # 2 going into 1959, sanders was WBO champ, Valdez beat 3 top 10 ranked contenders the year before, sanders beat 1. You can make all speculation you want, but I thought I would present to you some viable facts. Anyway this is off topic.......and Valdez isnt even one of listons best wins, while sanders is vitalis best win.


I'll throw in some facts as well. Valdez had lost two out of his last three fights to a couple of novices going in against Liston, had lost 18 fights total, was dropped several times in his career, and was one fight away from retirment. We both know that ratings in any era are not always well justified, and having Valdez at number two, was a bit of a stretch. Sanders entered the ring against Klitschko with a record of 38-2-0-28, and coming off a better win over Wlad than Valdez' victories over Mcmurtry, Summerlin, or Dejohn. While I agree that Sanders was certainly up there in age and not looking pretty, we can't just pick on these points where it most conveinences us.



These are exuses. who postpones a fight 4 times waits until a week before the fight and suddenly retires?? horrible timing


How do you know what his reasons were for not taking those fights? Are you saying that his injuries were falacious, and that him signing to fight Rahman on all those occasions was just some media stunt to mask the fact that he was ducking him? You can speculate all you want, but frankly I think Klitschko's injury history is pretty well documented, and personally, If it were a true ducking, it would have been a lot easier to just retire under the pretense of injury rather than to repeat the same spiel 4 different times.



True but in hindsight we realize Purrity was just a trialhorse, and sanders was much of the same for the majority of his career. it seems purrity and sanders whole legacy derives off their upset wins over wlad, which makes wlad look worse than he is.


Sanders may not have a terribly long list of wins over top raters, but I wouldn't call a man who left the ring with a final record of 41-4 a trialhoarse or journeyman. Purity was definately a journeyman, but one who was on the high end of the spectrum and at times even qualified as a fringe contender. In 20 career losses, he lost mainly decisions to undefeated prospects or prime contenders. He was stopped only twice, and one of those came against Vitali, validating Klitschko's power over many of his peers. Purity defeated some good fighters in Wlad, Gonzalez, Hipp, Hulstrom, and arguably Morrison in a fight that was ruled a draw.








All these men are not world beater, nor are they considered some of the better contenders of their era. in fact donald was a journeyman who never beat a single ranked fighter in his life......Hoffman was C level at best.


In your opinion Hoffman and Donald were journeyman.








30lb overweight harpooned whale kirk johnson.

That harpooned whale had lost only once in 36 fights, and Vitali smoked him in two freakin' rounds. No one had ever done that to Johnson, nor did they ever do it again.








I am still umimpressed by his lack of competition in one of the weakest eras in heavyweight history



Fine. But note, that the 1960's pre-Clay, was not exactly the golden era of heavyweights either.



what do you want me to say? Ill take the quote for what it is. Never did I say sanders vs Vitali was not an exciting fight all I said was sanders lack of shape caused him to be punched out after 2 rounds.




But, he wasn't punched out after two rounds.

All he did was win the weakish WBO title of an inactive overweight old man.

He actually held both the WBO and WBC titles at separate points in his career, and I've already gone over the reasons why that inactive old man was still a formidable foe.



If buddy baer had Alhpa titles back in his day im sure he could have done the same thing vitali did.


But could he have compiled the stats that Vitali did, and would Klitschko have lost to fighters like Babe Hunt, Ford Smith, Andre Lenglet, Gunnar Barland, or Eddie Blunt?




more exuses for vitali. He claimed he was going to fight Hasim rahman, claimed he is going to fight sam peter, then when the fights signed and ready to go.....he backs out. why does he fool the public so much? you like the way he messes around with peoples heads?



We've already gone through this, and frankly I think its going through an aweful lot of trouble to pull an unnecessary hoax. If Vitali didn't want to fight Rahman or Peter, he could have just as easily said " I'm retiring because my body won't let me fight anymore ", and that's it. Going through the extensive process of promoting, marketing, and training for a championship fight only to fake an injury at the last minute on four different occasions, is a bigger pain in the ass than its worth, and not one thats needed to avoid an opponent.


Vitali LOST to a Tiring Veteran.

A tiring veteran who he was beating the shit out of, and lost because of a stoppage that he was opposed to. Marciano was behind against an aging fighter who I did not feel was as good as a 2003 Lewis, and managed to win due to the benefit of that old fighter tiring out over 13 rounds. In a 12 round championship bout, Marciano Loses that fight. You also failed to acknowledge that Klitschko took the Lewis fight on two weeks notice while preparing for a bout with an unranked opponent. Had he realized that he'd be fighting the best fighter in the world, I think his level of preparation would have been better. How long did Marciano have before he knew he was going into the ring with the champ?

[Bo Bo Olson]

Russia as a sportsman you don't get some thing in the gym...the Russian sprots doctor gives it to you...
What for stupidity.

So he lost amature fights...big deal. Everyone does.

He did have a shoulder injury....I have not seen the fight vs Byrd on tape only TV live and don't understand where Byrd was supposed to have won a round much less 4.


Hide was fast, very fast.
Machen was very skilled and fast.

I do not see a blow away for "Tiny" Liston.
Liston's reach is as long or longer....Both Klitchko's have the same problem of going straight back. but to reach height must be added.
The only one that Liston fought that could hit as hard as Klitchko was Williams. Try as I will I can't give this to Liston.
It would be a better fight than you expect.

The Kugan made some very nice intellegant points...as expected.
.
I of course having seen the Klitchkos as they came up, knock folks out with either hand with one punch, knock fighters back wards with one jab, your build up fights.....the tomato can's.

I also saw how both brothers changed thier all out attack styles after Wald gassed vs Purity.

And there are now some haters on Classic....That I didn't expect....not on Classic....

blind angry Klitickco haters. The place has fallen apart....too bad. I stopped reading this hate filled post after page 7,,,,,,

Vittili often throws a power jab, like a Liston power jab. He's just thowing it downwards.