Holmes or Louis against prime Ali.

[Robbi]

Ive not started a thread for a while, so thought I may as well.

My question to everyone. Could a prime Joe Louis beat a prime Ali, and could a prime Larry Holmes beat the "greatest" at his best as well?.

If you decided neither Louis or Holmes would beat a prime Ali, who has the best chance of giving Ali the most problems?.



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[Street Lethal]

Larry Holmes has the best shot at pulling off the upset. His jab would be something Ali never confronted before. He would be the most technically skilled boxer Ali ever met. He was fast and could move well. He had a solid chin and great recuperative powers.

[janitor]

My question to everyone. Could a prime Joe Louis beat a prime Ali, and could a prime Larry Holmes beat the "greatest" at his best as well?.


The answer is an emphatic yes.

They could also both loose to him.

Both Louis and Holmes have too many tools to rule out their wining on a given day.

I would undertake to draw up a strategy fopr either of these men to fight Ali.

[Titan1]

I think both lose to Ali in his prime, but Holmes has a better chance of beating Ali than Louis ever did.

[C. M. Clay II]

I think both lose to Ali in his prime, but Holmes has a better chance of beating Ali than Louis ever did.

:good

[Manassa]

:good

Seriously - give it a rest. You don't have to become best mates with every single person who says something good about Muhammad Ali. You don't have to put his name forward in every thread or mention one of his fights every time someone says 'most exciting' or 'greatest wins' - have a bit of variety!!! Don't you get bored? I would have thought there was only so much talking you could do about one fighter, but maybe I was wrong.

[RAMPAGE0017]

Holmes - Yes.

Louis - No.

[ChuckYoungblood]

I think Holmes' style would have been a bigger problem for Ali than Louis's. And maybe Holmes could squeeze in a split decision, but I doubt it.

[McGrain]

I would always pick prime Louis to beat prime Ali.

He's the only one I would be choosing on fight night though, presuming there was nothing unreasonable in the build ups.

[Duodenum]

Louis would have gotten dizzy chasing a prime Ali. When he was able to get to Muhammad, Ali would have been able to withstand whatever Louis had to dish out. Joe was a patient and aggressive counterpuncher who never stopped an opponent beyond round 13. Ali took out the tough Bonavena and Wepner in round 15, nearly stopped Shavers in that same round, and won Manila after 14 grueling rounds. In the FOTC, he got up from a hellacious left hook after having his body pounded for 14 rounds, and was actually fighting back after getting up. A widely noted strong finisher, he had no difficulty winning the 15th and final round against Chuvalo, Terrell, Foster, and others. Peak Ali would have no difficuly whatsoever evading Louis into the championship rounds, then the match would be all his.

Ali UD 15 Louis

Larry Holmes is a different matter entirely. He has indicated that he felt at his physical peak against Cooney, and was able to shut out Shavers over 12 in their first match, Berbick and Cobb over 15. The fact that Eddie Futch was his chief second when he was at his best figures heavily in this scenario. Futch knew how to beat Ali, Holmes knew how to carry out his corner's advice, and Larry had the physical strength, toughness, endurance, and other tools necessary to give Ali a great deal of difficulty.

Over the first three rounds of their match, Zora Folley kept Ali off his toes by standing his ground and making Muhammad take Zora head on. He won two of those first three rounds by landing singular bodyshots from the outside, and consecutive lead rights to the head. (Futch got Holmes to stop lifting his left leg before throwing his right, so Larry was no longer tipping that punch off.) Holmes certainly had a fast enough jab to through Ali off his rhythym, and Muhammad didn't mind giving away bodyshots, a tendency which Futch and Holmes would exploit for building points and winning rounds (as Larry in fact did in round nine of the Carl Williams fight).

Ali dropped the smaller and slower Folley twice by outmanuevering him with a quick step to the right, followed by a hook or chin spinning cross, almost from behind Folley's left side. Larry was faster than Zora, and even if Ali did manage to succeed in nailing Holmes with such a punch, Larry would have been more than strong enough to stand up to it.

One of Muhammad's sneaky tactics for draining his opponent's strength and energy was to continually pull down on their necks in the clinches. Because Larry's style was that of a stand-up boxer, this strategy would not be available to Ali so much. As the match went on, Muhammad would discover that Holmes wasn't going to wind down late. Ali's lean was really geared for slipping the left hook, and it worked more often than not, but the hook wasn't a primary weapon in Larry's repertoire anyways.

Ali's primary weapon would have to be his long fast right hand lead. If I was in his corner, I'd recommend that Muhammad abandon his jab, except as a diversion, and rely on a punch Holmes can be reached with as his main tool of choice. (That Ali didn't always listen to his corner's instructions also plays a role in my speculative outcome.)

No KD's, no stoppage. This one's going 15 rounds. Ali would spot Larry a lead on the scorecards like Norton did, then come on like gangbusters. He'd be catching up by the end, but not quite get there.

Holmes SD 15 Ali

(But no wagering the rent on this!)

[Jupiter1610]

I would always pick prime Louis to beat prime Ali.

Louis didn't have the footwork to beat Ali. Ali would not stand still and trade punches like so many of Joe's opponents, but would move about and overwhelm Louis with his handspeed. Even if Ali does get caught, he has proved his chin against some of the hardest hitters boxing has seen. Ali comes away with a comfortable UD on this one.

Holmes on the other hand could present some problems. Really can not make a judgement on this one, but can only be assured it would be a terrific fight.

[Robbi]

Louis would have gotten dizzy chasing a prime Ali. When he was able to get to Muhammad, Ali would have been able to withstand whatever Louis had to dish out. Joe was a patient and aggressive counterpuncher who never stopped an opponent beyond round 13. Ali took out the tough Bonavena and Wepner in round 15, nearly stopped Shavers in that same round, and won Manila after 14 grueling rounds. In the FOTC, he got up from a hellacious left hook after having his body pounded for 14 rounds, and was actually fighting back after getting up. A widely noted strong finisher, he had no difficulty winning the 15th and final round against Chuvalo, Terrell, Foster, and others. Peak Ali would have no difficuly whatsoever evading Louis into the championship rounds, then the match would be all his.

Ali UD 15 Louis

Larry Holmes is a different matter entirely. He has indicated that he felt at his physical peak against Cooney, and was able to shut out Shavers over 12 in their first match, Berbick and Cobb over 15. The fact that Eddie Futch was his chief second when he was at his best figures heavily in this scenario. Futch knew how to beat Ali, Holmes knew how to carry out his corner's advice, and Larry had the physical strength, toughness, endurance, and other tools necessary to give Ali a great deal of difficulty.

Over the first three rounds of their match, Zora Folley kept Ali off his toes by standing his ground and making Muhammad take Zora head on. He won two of those first three rounds by landing singular bodyshots from the outside, and consecutive lead rights to the head. (Futch got Holmes to stop lifting his left leg before throwing his right, so Larry was no longer tipping that punch off.) Holmes certainly had a fast enough jab to through Ali off his rhythym, and Muhammad didn't mind giving away bodyshots, a tendency which Futch and Holmes would exploit for building points and winning rounds (as Larry in fact did in round nine of the Carl Williams fight).

Ali dropped the smaller and slower Folley twice by outmanuevering him with a quick step to the right, followed by a hook or chin spinning cross, almost from behind Folley's left side. Larry was faster than Zora, and even if Ali did manage to succeed in nailing Holmes with such a punch, Larry would have been more than strong enough to stand up to it.

One of Muhammad's sneaky tactics for draining his opponent's strength and energy was to continually pull down on their necks in the clinches. Because Larry's style was that of a stand-up boxer, this strategy would not be available to Ali so much. As the match went on, Muhammad would discover that Holmes wasn't going to wind down late. Ali's lean was really geared for slipping the left hook, and it worked more often than not, but the hook wasn't a primary weapon in Larry's repertoire anyways.

Ali's primary weapon would have to be his long fast right hand lead. If I was in his corner, I'd recommend that Muhammad abandon his jab, except as a diversion, and rely on a punch Holmes can be reached with as his main tool of choice. (That Ali didn't always listen to his corner's instructions also plays a role in my speculative outcome.)

No KD's, no stoppage. This one's going 15 rounds. Ali would spot Larry a lead on the scorecards like Norton did, then come on like gangbusters. He'd be catching up by the end, but not quite get there.

Holmes SD 15 Ali

(But no wagering the rent on this!)

Some interesting points, especially your take on Ali v Holmes. We are talking a prime Ali, but must throw in that Norton timed his jabs to perfection when he beat Ali. While Norton's tactics were mainly primed on aggressivenes and working Ali over with power shots against the ropes, he jabbed his way in brilliantly. Futch knew he had more weapons in the locker with Norton, as Frazier's work at long range was a restriction.

Regarding Holmes. Not only did Holmes have a sharp acccurate jab, he was also busy with it. Probably busier with the jab than anyone Ali ever shared a ring with in his entire career. Many fighters over the years have possessed great jabs, but never use it enough.

Holmes would be best served pressuring Ali. He had the ability to step in with the jab as Ali was retreating on the backfoot, then follow with the left hook to the body and the straight right hand. Not only did Holmes fire the straight right hand, he also curved it.

Ali going against the ropes with Holmes spells disaster. The uppercut inside was a primary weapon throughout Holmes' career. And while Holmes' may not be as effective as Frazier at close quarters, he was comfortable enough in that department to have Ali coming off second best. Lying against the ropes would give Holmes' a stationary target for measuring with the right hand. Watch Holmes' fights, and his hunny punch when he had any opponent on the ropes was the right hand.

Ali had better upperbody movement than Holmes did. This would cause Holmes problems at long range with Ali bending from the waist and using head movement to sway away and counter with the jab.

Holmes was very quick during his prime, but Ali was a bit quicker with his hands, and his reflexes with sharper.

I can't pick a winner.

[GazOC]

I think both lose to Ali in his prime, but Holmes has a better chance of beating Ali than Louis ever did.


Gets my vote as well.:good

[robert ungurean]

Absolutly yes, they could both beat Ali & vice versa.

[prime]

Both Ali and Holmes were offensively-minded, take-control guys. Ali was better on offense by virtue of his amazing ring movement, which allows him to dictate the tempo, and his nonpareil blizzard combinations. Ali against Williams is the fighter I see in these fantasies and Holmes, not a one-punch killer but a technician himself, would always be a step behind.

Ali can steal the round and multiply this by 15 to take the decision.

[Manassa]

Both Ali and Holmes were offensively-minded

I must have missed the fights where Ali pressed the action.

[prime]

When in a fight, Ali turned it on from the beginning: Liston 1; Liston 2; Williams; Frazier 1; Frazier 2; Frazier 3; Norton 2; Foreman; Spinks 2, just a sample of the fights you should not miss where Muhammad Ali shows his wonderful offensive abilities.

[Robbi]

When in a fight, Ali turned it on from the beginning: Liston 1; Liston 2; Williams; Frazier 1; Frazier 2; Frazier 3; Norton 2; Foreman; Spinks 2, just a sample of the fights you should not miss where Muhammad Ali shows his wonderful offensive abilities.

Manassa's statement of "pressing the action" means, being the aggressor over a considerable period of time during fights. Constantly coming forward and exchanging punches without any rest, or Ali stalking his opponent, thus becoming the bull against the matador.

Not sure Ali done that too much at all.

[prime]

I think it was Sugar Shane Mosley who called Ali an "unorthodox brawler". The fact that he didn't normally "come forward", Young-fight style, doesn't mean he was not an offensively-minded, take-control guy, as I originally stated.

Of course Ali's style was not bloodthirsty like say Roberto Duran's or Joe Frazier's. But he was always looking for the opening, either taking the initiative, like when he drew first blood against Liston in Round 3, or waiting to strike back swiftly like against Foreman.

Ali threw a lot of punches, most not exactly counters; to me that is an offensive fighter. He just didn't feel like brawling orthodox-style.

[NickHudson]

This is prime for prime. How is Ali going to the ropes relevent?

Presumably, he would be using his fantastic leg movement, combined with upper body movement to dart in and out of range as and when he saw fit.



Ali going against the ropes with Holmes spells disaster.

[booradley]

Louis would have gotten dizzy chasing a prime Ali. When he was able to get to Muhammad, Ali would have been able to withstand whatever Louis had to dish out. Joe was a patient and aggressive counterpuncher who never stopped an opponent beyond round 13. Ali took out the tough Bonavena and Wepner in round 15, nearly stopped Shavers in that same round, and won Manila after 14 grueling rounds. In the FOTC, he got up from a hellacious left hook after having his body pounded for 14 rounds, and was actually fighting back after getting up. A widely noted strong finisher, he had no difficulty winning the 15th and final round against Chuvalo, Terrell, Foster, and others. Peak Ali would have no difficuly whatsoever evading Louis into the championship rounds, then the match would be all his.

Ali UD 15 Louis

Larry Holmes is a different matter entirely. He has indicated that he felt at his physical peak against Cooney, and was able to shut out Shavers over 12 in their first match, Berbick and Cobb over 15. The fact that Eddie Futch was his chief second when he was at his best figures heavily in this scenario. Futch knew how to beat Ali, Holmes knew how to carry out his corner's advice, and Larry had the physical strength, toughness, endurance, and other tools necessary to give Ali a great deal of difficulty.

Over the first three rounds of their match, Zora Folley kept Ali off his toes by standing his ground and making Muhammad take Zora head on. He won two of those first three rounds by landing singular bodyshots from the outside, and consecutive lead rights to the head. (Futch got Holmes to stop lifting his left leg before throwing his right, so Larry was no longer tipping that punch off.) Holmes certainly had a fast enough jab to through Ali off his rhythym, and Muhammad didn't mind giving away bodyshots, a tendency which Futch and Holmes would exploit for building points and winning rounds (as Larry in fact did in round nine of the Carl Williams fight).

Ali dropped the smaller and slower Folley twice by outmanuevering him with a quick step to the right, followed by a hook or chin spinning cross, almost from behind Folley's left side. Larry was faster than Zora, and even if Ali did manage to succeed in nailing Holmes with such a punch, Larry would have been more than strong enough to stand up to it.

One of Muhammad's sneaky tactics for draining his opponent's strength and energy was to continually pull down on their necks in the clinches. Because Larry's style was that of a stand-up boxer, this strategy would not be available to Ali so much. As the match went on, Muhammad would discover that Holmes wasn't going to wind down late. Ali's lean was really geared for slipping the left hook, and it worked more often than not, but the hook wasn't a primary weapon in Larry's repertoire anyways.

Ali's primary weapon would have to be his long fast right hand lead. If I was in his corner, I'd recommend that Muhammad abandon his jab, except as a diversion, and rely on a punch Holmes can be reached with as his main tool of choice. (That Ali didn't always listen to his corner's instructions also plays a role in my speculative outcome.)

No KD's, no stoppage. This one's going 15 rounds. Ali would spot Larry a lead on the scorecards like Norton did, then come on like gangbusters. He'd be catching up by the end, but not quite get there.

Holmes SD 15 Ali

(But no wagering the rent on this!)

Very good analysis; Wasn't Holmes a sparring partner for Ali when Larry was on the way up? Not sure I'd pick Holmes, but then again, not sure I'd pick Ali either! Two of my favorite fighters ever!

Boo

[fists of fury]

I'd make Ali a favourite against Louis because Joe had trouble with slick boxers who could move. I'm just not sure Louis would be able to catch Ali on the ropes or in the corner, and Ali's speed of foot would create problems for the 'shufflin' shadow.'

I think Holmes is a 50/50 pick. Holmes possessed a world-class jab with a great boxing brain. I can see him making Ali fight his fight instead of the other way round.

[Holmes' Jab]

Over the course of a three fight series both have a live chance of defeating Ali at some point or other. I think that Holmes style matches up better head-to-head, though.

Still, two tough fights to call here. Ali certainly couldn't afford to be slack against a puncher of Louis' calibre. No way josé!

[Duodenum]

Peak Ali didn't go to the ropes much. It's only in the FOTC, and especially with Foreman and after, that we see him doing this more frequently. Holmes was very aggressive with his jab, and like Ali, would not hesitate to go to the sternum with it when Muhammad leaned back.

Yes, Holmes was one of Ali's sparring partners for Foreman. (In Ali's ghostwritten 1975 autobiography, mention is made of "young, fast, smart Larry Holmes," three years before Larry became famous for decisioning Earnie Shavers.)

In 1980, Holmes started out far more tentatively against Ali than he would have with Eddie Futch in his corner. Even with Richie Giachetti though, Larry's attacking with the jab right away. Using that weapon, he wouldn't have been expending a great deal of energy.

It's difficult for me to envision Ali going to the ropes against Larry. Holmes might just stay outside, and continue picking away with the jab, hardly something that would cause Larry to punch himself out. Holmes was very good at keeping his hands up, an effective defensive tactic against Ali. Muhammad's body attack wouldn't do much to Larry. The only indication of Ali going downstairs as a mainstay of his attack that I've read was against Blue Lewis. (I haven't seen any footage of this match though.)

[Manassa]

When in a fight, Ali turned it on from the beginning: Liston 1; Liston 2; Williams; Frazier 1; Frazier 2; Frazier 3; Norton 2; Foreman; Spinks 2, just a sample of the fights you should not miss where Muhammad Ali shows his wonderful offensive abilities.

where Muhammad Ali shows his wonderful offensive abilities.

:lol:

I think he took the back foot for about 95% of the total time he fought those opponents. It would be 99% but he did go forward a bit more against Cleveland 'Punching Bag' Williams.

[Manassa]

I think it was Sugar Shane Mosley who called Ali an "unorthodox brawler". The fact that he didn't normally "come forward", Young-fight style, doesn't mean he was not an offensively-minded, take-control guy, as I originally stated.

Of course Ali's style was not bloodthirsty like say Roberto Duran's or Joe Frazier's. But he was always looking for the opening, either taking the initiative, like when he drew first blood against Liston in Round 3, or waiting to strike back swiftly like against Foreman.

Ali threw a lot of punches, most not exactly counters; to me that is an offensive fighter. He just didn't feel like brawling orthodox-style.

What you're basically saying is that 'Ali threw punches' so therefore he was offensive minded. Every boxer throws punches.

[Robbi]

This is prime for prime. How is Ali going to the ropes relevent?

Presumably, he would be using his fantastic leg movement, combined with upper body movement to dart in and out of range as and when he saw fit.

Don't know what the problem is with advising Ali not to go to the ropes. Going to the ropes is relevent, as their is every chance Ali goes to the ropes for a short period of time. Nownere in my post did I say a prime Ali would "definitley" lean on the ropes like he did with Foreman.

I'm simply telling a prime Ali "Don't go anywhere near the ropes"

[McGrain]

What you're basically saying is that 'Ali threw punches' so therefore he was offensive minded. Every boxer throws punches.

I consider Ali an aggresive fighter. He certainly isn't a Floyd Mayweather - he's in there trying to dominate his man one way or the other, he's not pot-shoting his way to a decision.

[Muchmoore]

Ali beats both of them but I wouldn't be tooo confident. Holmes if he can successfully time Alis jab and counter like Norton he will win, and Louis is one of the all time great punchers and finishers.

[Manassa]

Jesus. Not only was Ali the best boxer-mover in heavyweight history, according to some he was also the strongest because he was good at clinching illegally, had the best chin even though others have shown to be sturdier, had 'very good' power despite almost never knocking a man out, and was now aggressive, even though he almost never took the front foot. The man must be magic. One poster in this very thread described Ali's offense as 'wonderful' - his uppercut was a slap, the left hook a swat and the body punching was nearly non-existant, and even his better punches only occasionally carried sufficient force to stun a man. Still, it's Ali. His offense must have been wonderful, and it's probably blasphemous to disagree.

[McGrain]

Jesus. Not only was Ali the best boxer-mover in heavyweight history, according to some he was also the strongest because he was good at clinching illegally,

:lol:


had the best chin even though others have shown to be sturdier

I have to confess to having him #1 for chin. Where would you put him?

had 'very good' power despite almost never knocking a man out,

Yes, he could sit down on his punches but he was average at best. An unamed gentleman descibed him as being a more powerful puncher than Dempsey in a thread a few days ago. People do get carried away with him a bit.

and was now aggressive, even though he almost never took the front foot.

Yes, that was me. I stand by it. I don't think you need to be on the front foot to be an aggressive fighter, speaker, negotiator or anything else. Especially not when you are a master of judging the range/platform of the battle. Do you think he was a reticent fighter?


The man must be magic.

Yes; I think magic is the right word. Maybe "magical" has a better ring though?


One poster in this very thread described Ali's offense as 'wonderful'

Again, probably the right word.

- his uppercut was a slap,

It is a comedy shot.


the left hook a swat

A stinging one though.

and the body punching was nearly non-existant,

:lol:

I always remember the commentary team for the Terrel fight agreeing that he didn't want to punch to the body because he was worried it might mean his face would get messed up, leave him more exposed.


and even his better punches only occasionally carried sufficient force to stun a man. Still, it's Ali. His offense must have been wonderful, and it's probably blasphemous to disagree.

Not blasphemous; but with his astonishing track record of winning fights with strong opposition and totally outclassing many good fighters whilst in his prime, I think it does need a little explaining. Boxing is a fighting business. You don't fight with good movement and rings smarts alone. Or even primarily.

[Manassa]

Here's the deal:

Muhammad Ali was a magnificent fighter. He had a natural boxing talent, you can see it in his movement; smooth, fluid, deluxe. However - he is subject to a vast amount of overrating.

Ali was a pretty good puncher in his prime; his speed, fluidity and combination punching meant he could bewilder an opponent and hit him at will, but he did not have 'good' or 'very good' power. He had average power. He never really took a fighter out with one punch - none of us count the Liston fight, and Foreman was exhausted. Ali was capable of delivering a stunning punch on occasion, but so can any fighter. All world class fighters can punch to an extent if they plant their feet, and it doesn't mean they have above average power when they demonstrate this.

Ali had a great chin, probably one of the best. But it wasn't the best. Ali was stunned on many occasions and sometimes dropped - it was his heart, determination, survival skills and recuperative powers that allowed him to take these punches and recover from them. Someone like Oliver McCall or George Chuvalo most likely had better chins than Ali - I would even say Mike Tyson did as well. Those fighters just lacked the aforementioned attributes to match. Tyson, for instance (at least in his declining years), would get hit by a shot and stay exactly where he was, only to be hit by another one, and then another.

I think it is wrong to assume Ali was the strongest heavyweight of all time just because he hung on the heads of fighters like Foreman and Frazier. Ali used leverage and weight to pull these men down - it's not like he was powering forward and shoving them back, he was just hanging on strategically. In all seriousness, you can't tell me Ali was stronger than someone like Nicolay Valuev or Tye Fields, even though he might have been light years ahead as a boxer.

Ali was not aggressive. Yes, he often dictated the pace, yes, he took opportunities and yes, he hit fighters a lot - but that doesn't mean he was aggressive. Pernell Whitaker did the same things, so did Willie Pep. Were they aggressive? Ali could be sadistic, but he wasn't aggressive.
Some definitions for 'aggressive':
- Militantly forward or menacing
- Making an all-out effort to win or succeed
- Vigorously energetic, especially regarding initiative and forcefulness
- Boldy assertive and forward; pushy

Doesn't sound like Ali to me.

Ali - great fighter, not quite Superman. If I listened to the people round 'ere, I'd think Ali was the most complete fighter of all time.

[McGrain]

Muhammad Ali was a magnificent fighter. He had a natural boxing talent, you can see it in his movement; smooth, fluid, deluxe. However - he is subject to a vast amount of overrating.

All of this is true. I like this word "deluxe", it fits snugly.

The other thing: just be careful not to underate him as some form of compensation. You see that a lot.

Ali was a pretty good puncher in his prime; his speed, fluidity and combination punching meant he could bewilder an opponent and hit him at will, but he did not have 'good' or 'very good' power. He had average power. He never really took a fighter out with one punch - none of us count the Liston fight, and Foreman was exhausted. Ali was capable of delivering a stunning punch on occasion, but so can any fighter. All world class fighters can punch to an extent if they plant their feet, and it doesn't mean they have above average power when they demonstrate this.

Agreed.

Ali had a great chin, probably one of the best. But it wasn't the best. Ali was stunned on many occasions and sometimes dropped - it was his heart, determination, survival skills and recuperative powers that allowed him to take these punches and recover from them. Someone like Oliver McCall or George Chuvalo most likely had better chins than Ali - I would even say Mike Tyson did as well.

Yes, this is a reasonable surmisation, though I disagree with the Tyson shout. I agree with you about McCall and Chuvalo - I recently had a thread on atg heavyweights organised in order of chin - and I was thinking of that, I had Ali at number one in that.



Ali was not aggressive. Yes, he often dictated the pace, yes, he took opportunities and yes, he hit fighters a lot

Just what does it mean to set the pace and hit fighters a lot?


Some definitions for 'aggressive':
- Militantly forward or menacing
- Making an all-out effort to win or succeed
- Vigorously energetic, especially regarding initiative and forcefulness
- Boldy assertive and forward; pushy

Doesn't sound like Ali to me.

I've highlighted the ones I think fit Ali perfectly. What you have to take into account is that there is all kinds of assertivness. Ali asserts himself bodily and willfully. The only man that I've seen him in with at or around peak that wasn't bent almost entirely to his fight plan - which he persued aggressivley - was Frazier, and arguably Norton.

I don't think "making an all-out effort to win or succeed needs explaining - that is patently Ali, perhaps so much so as to preclude it being used "more correctly" about any other fighter.

Ali - great fighter, not quite Superman. If I listened to the people round 'ere, I'd think Ali was the most complete fighter of all time.

Yeah, I hear you there. This is exactly how nut-huggers/haters are created in the general section.

[Manassa]

We're going to have to disagree on the aggressiveness shout. At best, I think you could call Ali 'passive aggressive' because of his sadistic streak. But when you say he asserted himself and went all-out to win, that's just what any fighter does. If we saw things like that, we'd be calling every fighter and his uncle aggressive. Mike Tyson was aggressive. Roberto Duran was aggressive. Henry Armstrong was aggressive. There is a striking contrast between those men and Ali.

[McGrain]

We're going to have to disagree on the aggressiveness shout. At best, I think you could call Ali 'passive aggressive' because of his sadistic streak. But when you say he asserted himself and went all-out to win, that's just what any fighter does. If we saw things like that, we'd be calling every fighter and his uncle aggressive. Mike Tyson was aggressive. Roberto Duran was aggressive. Henry Armstrong was aggressive. There is a striking contrast between those men and Ali.

Sure; but someone like Mayweather may position himself to win the round. Ali will consistantly position himself to inflict as much damage as is possible upon his opponent, whilst remaining within the confines of his style. His style is not arbitrary, it's carved expertley to coincide with his skills/weaknesses. This may be the thing he did better than any other heayweight.

[Manassa]

Sure; but someone like Mayweather may position himself to win the round. Ali will consistantly position himself to inflict as much damage as is possible upon his opponent, whilst remaining within the confines of his style. His style is not arbitrary, it's carved expertley to coincide with his skills/weaknesses. This may be the thing he did better than any other heayweight.

That's quite a radical viewpoint. I never once thought, when watching an Ali fight, that he was out to inflict as much damage as possible. A couple of times I saw him punish an opponent for personal reasons, but I never saw him crushing foes in the same fashion as Ike Williams or Marvin Hagler did.

[McGrain]

That's quite a radical viewpoint. I never once thought, when watching an Ali fight, that he was out to inflict as much damage as possible. A couple of times I saw him punish an opponent for personal reasons, but I never saw him crushing foes in the same fashion as Ike Williams or Marvin Hagler did.

Do you really think so?

Obviously there are going to be serious differences between Ali and Hagler's versiou of "all out" because of styles. Hagler can afford to stand right in front of a great puncher and out punch him. Obviously Ali can't do that. But he will remain within range long enough to fire in numerous shots before moving on (sticking with 60's Ali for the moment) and when the time came to sit down on his punches that's exactly what he would do. I know you've spoken derisively (perhaps rightly) about Ali taking on Williams - but it is a fine example. He fires in a few, realises what he has on his hands and then stops moving and starts firing in serious punches.

But even when he's moving (post-Liston certainly) he's still aggressive for his style - he's still looking to punch and score and stop his man (apart form weird freakish fights like Terrell) just not with one punch or one volley.

Put it this way; Ali doesn't look to run after he feels he's won the round (post Liston anyway) - he's still in there, fighting.

[Manassa]

To be honest I think you're complicating things far too much.

[McGrain]

To be honest I think you're complicating things far too much.

Not me!

All i can do is tell it as i see it, and I certainly don't see aggression as an attribute that can be claimed by only natural punchers or not at all.

[Manassa]

Not me!

All i can do is tell it as i see it, and I certainly don't see aggression as an attribute that can be claimed by only natural punchers or not at all.

Not by only natural punchers. LaMotta, Greb, Hamsho, these men were aggressive but far from dynamite.

[McGrain]

Not by only natural punchers. LaMotta, Greb, Hamsho, these men were aggressive but far from dynamite.

Sure.

[Luigi1985]

What´s that for a question? 2 of the greatest ATG´s against another great ATG and you formulate it if they have a chance? Of course they would have a chance, especially Holmes... some of you wrote that it need a fighter with great footwork and speed to beat Ali, Frazier IMO isn´t that fast at this 2 things...

[prime]

“Hit and not be hit” was prime Ali’s mantra. He didn’t like beating people up and, on the other hand, he once said, “People don’t understand you don’t have to get hit in boxing.”

His intention was to get the W. Using his superior speed, he would hover at outside distance, looking to lead with long jabs or rights and follow up with fast combinations. But he would take the initiative and was accurate and had a high punch output. His focus was on winning rounds, not engaging in a phone-booth slugfest. He was content to use long punches because of his physical attributes of normally being the taller man; he didn’t need to fight in the trenches with hooks and uppercuts. Thus, he was not aggressive in a bloodthirsty way, just a gifted technician whose great shape and speed allowed him to throw a lot of punches and have the edge, second to second.

As far as hooks and uppercuts, Ali stunned Big Cat with several great hooks and landed some jolting uppers on Frazier in FOTC. He also showed a varied repertoire in Norton II.

How else did Ali beat such greats as Liston, Frazier and Foreman, total 56 wins and come to be considered the GOAT without a great offense? But he did it his way, not as Manassa would have liked.

[Shake]

Louis' sloppy guard would have been taken advantage of safely from outside. Holmes....Holmes has a good chance to get the decision.

I've never seen Holmes in with a dancer. Any such match-up in history?

[Danny]

They both win, Louis by TKO. Holmes by decision.

I agree with you. However, if forced to pick between the two to take on a peak Ali, I would pick Holmes. Larry sparred with Ali for many years before they actually fought.

It was unfortunate for any HW contender coming through at the same time Larry was, because you were in Ali's shadow and the public, boxing world, to a ceetain degree, wouldn't let people forget that.

I firmly beleive Larry would have been HW champion long before he did if he were only given the opportunity. Holmes' biography is a very, very good read. Larry is as bluntly honest as they come. Holmes was not an attraction, box-office by any means & that's why he wasn't given a title shot until 1978.

It's unbelieveable to think how a lot of the public & some of the boxing people, thought Holmes was not a great champion, didn't have the tools to excel in the sport etc.