Would Frazier rank ahead of Marciano had he retired after beating Ali?

[doublesuited]

What are your thoughts?

[Bill1234]

NO

[mr. magoo]

Had Frazier retired following the fight of the century, he would have had a record conisisting of only 27 fights. What's more, there are many who would argue that Ali had only fought 2x within a near 4 year period, making this a somewhat tainted win. Frankly, I can't see Frazier walking away with more respect than Marciano with such a short career.

[Sonny's jab]

I rank Frazier ahead of Marciano.

[Dempsey1238]

I dont think so, Fraizer would have retire with only about half of the fights Marciano did. Of couse, it took longer for Marciano to climb the latter. (Reason Fraizer had a gold medal). So you may take that into accout.

[McGrain]

I rank Frazier ahead of Marciano.


Me too.

[Sonny's jab]

how on earth do you rank fraizer above marciano?

He beat better fighters.

[Dempsey1238]

Outside of Ali, Fraizer didnt beat any one of note that compares to Walcott, Charles, and Archie Moore imo. Also thown in a old Louis.

[mr. magoo]

Outside of Ali, Fraizer didnt beat any one of note that compares to Walcott, Charles, and Archie Moore imo. Also thown in a old Louis.

Name recognition wise, no. Walcott, Moore, Louis and Charles had better legacies, but were starting to get up there in age. Frazier on the otherhand, beat prime versions of Ellis, Quarry, Bonavena, Mathis and Machen. Although, these men will never have the names that the other guys had, at least they were very good fighters at their best when Joe faced them.

[Dempsey1238]

And Louis Walcott, Charles and Moore were STILL the top dogs when Marciano got to em. Moore and Charles being rank number 1, and Walcott still being the champ. All 3 put on great showings against the Rock before Marciano mown them down. I belive Walcott, Moore and Charles are a level above EVEN when Marciano fought them, above Ellis, Quarry, Bonavena, Mathis and Machen. I belive Ellis is a bit over rated, outside of being blasted by Fraizer and Ali, and holding part of a alpha title, I cant think of anything worth wild about him. Bonavena is other guy I cant rank that high in contender ship. He would be forgoting today imo had he never enter the ring with Fraizer or Ali.

[FlatNose]

Thats a tough one, because Joe won the biggest heavyweight showdown ever.But Rockys over all record and legacy is superior.I like the Rock in this one, but it is close.

[PowerPuncher]

I switch Frazier and Marciano quite often, theres a good case for each to be greater. Frazier was a wonderous pressure fighter and a joy to watch. Bare in mind Frazier could probably have gone 49-0 against Marcianos competition.

Fraziers left hook is my personal favourate left hook in history. He was a little left hook happy, but what a left hook to be happy with :lol:

[MagnificentMatt]

He beat better fighters.

And he wasnt just a swarmer..

[mr. magoo]

bonavenas entire career is losing to ali, and losing to fraizer, but atleast he had glass jaw joe out on his feet a couple of times.

Not true.

Bonavena beat a lot of good fighters.

[Sonny's jab]

Outside of Ali, Fraizer didnt beat any one of note that compares to Walcott, Charles, and Archie Moore imo. Also thown in a old Louis.

"Outside of Ali" isn't the reality. Frazier beat Ali in a classic fight. That's significant in his ranking.

I doubt you will agree but I think Jerry Quarry and Jimmy Ellis were of roughly the same quality as Walcott, Moore, Charles.

George Chuvalo, Oscar Bonavena, Joe Bugner, Buster Mathis, Bob Foster, old Eddie Machen - all this opposition can be picked apart but I think there's more depth in there than if you assessed Marciano's top 9 or 10 opponents.

[mr. magoo]

"Outside of Ali" isn't the reality. Frazier beat Ali in a classic fight. That's significant in his ranking.

I doubt you will agree but I think Jerry Quarry and Jimmy Ellis were of roughly the same quality as Walcott, Moore, Charles.

George Chuvalo, Oscar Bonavena, Joe Bugner, Buster Mathis, Bob Foster, old Eddie Machen - all this opposition can be picked apart but I think there's more depth in there than if you assessed Marciano's top 9 or 10 opponents.

Agreed.

Jerry Quarry beat Floyd Patterson, Ron Lyle, Earnie Shavers, Mac Foster, Buster Mathis and a number of other good fighters. Frankly, I think he's better than most of the guys the Rock fought.

[Sonny's jab]

I belive Ellis is a bit over rated, outside of being blasted by Fraizer and Ali, and holding part of a alpha title, I cant think of anything worth wild about him.

Well, he beat Leotis Martin, Oscar Bonavena, Jerry Quarry and George Chuvalo ......... but I guess you might not rate them as good contenders either. It's all subjective I guess.
Ellis was a good skilful smallish heavyweight. I can imagine him outpointing an old Joe Louis, I can imagine him beating a fair few of the earlier linear champions.

[Sonny's jab]

Agreed.

Jerry Quarry beat Floyd Patterson, Ron Lyle, Earnie Shavers, Mac Foster, Buster Mathis and a number of other good fighters. Frankly, I think he's better than most of the guys the Rock fought.

Jerry Quarry's resume is very solid.

:good

[Dempsey1238]

Quarry failed when he step up vs to face the elite of his era.

[Sonny's jab]

Quarry failed when he step up vs to face the elite of his era.

Yes, he had tougher era than Charles & Walcott.

[Marciano Frazier]

I think there would probably be more people who would rank Frazier ahead of Marciano than there are, and even a few who ranked him #1 or #2, but the majority would probably still have him below Marciano- he would only have been 27-0, barely over half of Marciano's 49-0, and there's a good chance Ali wouldn't be remembered as the greatest had Frazier just retired after beating him, since then it would be a decisive, unavenged loss, and the win over Foreman wouldn't be as meaningful as it was without Foreman's having demolished Frazier, which would translate in many people's eyes into Frazier's win not carrying as much weight in many people's eyes.

[Dempsey1238]

And I belive had Charles and Walcott fought in the 70's, they be holding the title at some point in the 70's. Either during the exile of Ali or when Ali faded. And perhaps one of em could have upseting Foreman for the title.??? Either way they were as good, if not a level below Ali or Fraizer. I not impress with Foreman in regards to boxing skill. He just swing away. Hench the reason Ali took Foreman to school. I think old cuties like Charles or Walcott would have the same chance imo.

[Marciano Frazier]

To pipe in here on the Quarry-and-Ellis-compared-with-Walcott-Charles-and-Moore angle, Walcott and Charles were my #14 and 15 all-time heavyweights, while Quarry, if I remember correctly, was somewhere from #24-27 last time I compiled a list. Moore was around #30, and Ellis was closer to 40th.

[Bummy Davis]

No, Frazier was at the top of his game in the 1st Ali fight but Ellis,Quarry,Bonavena(think of those 3's record against Patterson) decisions most felt Patterson won )Floyd got the nod over Ringo) Was Ringo such a big puncher, he put Frazier down twice but not Floyd (who was dropped and KO'd quite a few times already) Ellis was beaten 5 times as a middleweight and dropped by Rubin Carter) Quarry was good vs the BIG slow punchers(Lyle,Foster,Shavers, but was dropped by Patterson,KO'd by Chuvalo and was eratic. Frazier made a BIG name for himself after Ali 1 but was never the same after his Big fight, Thats like Marcino retiring after the 1st Walcott fight. A great Swarmer can not have a long prime because it is a gruiling style but Marciano did it for 49 fight 7 of those title fights, Frazier did it for Ali 1 but could not stay in that top fighting form. Another thing do you see how experience helped Older Patterson vs Ellis( most felt he was robbed ) fought a draw with Quarry and lost a close one and beat Bonavena, YES that is the same experience that a more rugged Walcott and Charles took into there fights with Marciano, also Lastarza was 53-3 when he got the rematch and beat everyone who ever beat him except Rocky in there close fight so he was no slouch

[Asterion]

If Frazier had beaten Foreman and then retire....then fuck yes.

[Jupiter1610]

A couple reasons I regard Frazier more highly than Marciano

1) Defeated my #1 ATG HW and gave him some of his toughest wins

2) Fought superior competition. Bonavena, Machen, Mathis, Quarry, Ellis, and Foster is a very deep line of competition. Probaly only second to Ali in terms of depth of competitiveness. Walcott and Charles are good wins but both were beyond their primes. Some may debate this but Walcott fought Rocky in his last two fights at the age of roughly 39. Charles was most definitely 5-6 years past his best and had been in decline for some time. I truly believe a Charles from '49 would beat a prime Marciano.

3) Suffered two KO losses to Foreman but really could not have met a worse stylistic match. How many top 10 fighters faced an opponent that was more tailor made for their destruction. That would be like Ali having faced a 200lb Henry Armstrong. Had Marciano stuck around he would have faced a similiar fate against Liston.

[Holmes' Jab]

Name recognition wise, no. Walcott, Moore, Louis and Charles had better legacies, but were starting to get up there in age. Frazier on the otherhand, beat prime versions of Ellis, Quarry, Bonavena, Mathis and Machen. Although, these men will never have the names that the other guys had, at least they were very good fighters at their best when Joe faced them.

:good

[Ramon Rojo]

I already rank Frazier over Marciano.

[frankwornank]

First off, they were both great fighters. The thing about Marciano is he was 49 and 0 with 43 K's. Since he was never defeated as a pro, you have to wonder if he could be beat. He showed many times, particularly against Walcott and Charles that even when loosing on points and badly cut, he came back and knocked them out. He was a very special kind of fighter. I place him a notch above Frazier.

[Zakman]

Nope. And the Rock would beat Joe head to head, too.

[hopkinsfan07]

I already rank Frazier over Marciano.

:good me 2

[Mendoza]

"Outside of Ali" isn't the reality. Frazier beat Ali in a classic fight. That's significant in his ranking.

I doubt you will agree but I think Jerry Quarry and Jimmy Ellis were of roughly the same quality as Walcott, Moore, Charles.

George Chuvalo, Oscar Bonavena, Joe Bugner, Buster Mathis, Bob Foster, old Eddie Machen - all this opposition can be picked apart but I think there's more depth in there than if you assessed Marciano's top 9 or 10 opponents.

This is how I see it as well. Frazier's 10 best wins is a bit deeper than Rocky's best 10 wins. If Frazier retired after he beat Ali, the entire heavyweight top ten would be different. Both Ali and Foreman had two legacy wins wins over Frazier. If Frazier reitres in March 1971, these fights would have never happened. This would bump Formean out of the top 10, and possibly even move Ali out of the top 3.

[Bummy Davis]

Frazier was still a fighter with only 27 fights at that point (to early ) and there were a lot of people who felt a great stamina hard puncher like Louis,Marciano,Dempsey (Frazier type) would be the guy to beat Ali but not too many people felt Frazier was as good as those 3. A lot of Frazier's greatness was based on the first Ali fight but he still only had 27 fights at that point

[robert ungurean]

I rank Frazier ahead of Marciano.:good :good

[groove]

Walcott and Charles have no chance of winning the title in the 70s. Ali, Frazier and Foreman would all crucify them. They would be good contenders like Norton, Patterson, Quarry, Ellis, Lyle etc. Overrated 50s. Charles a true light heavy who would struggle against Bob Foster who both Frazier and Ali murdered. Walcott an old man who would never have a chance of winning the title in the 70s. Ali was the first guy to stop Bonavena. He was a tough fighter.

[My dinner with Conteh]

I rank Joe a bit behind Rocky but there's no doubt he'd have rated ahead if he'd gone undefeated after Ali. The Foreman mashing definitely cost him a few places.

[ironchamp]

Well to answer the thread,

I think Frazier would have had an imcomplete career had he retired right after Ali, too short a career to really give him his due.

He would be held in higher regard than he is held in now as he would be given the benefit of the doubt in fantasy matches seeing how the Foreman fights, and 2nd and 3rd Ali fight would have never happened.

I mean could you imagine what people would have said about Tyson if he stopped fighting after Micheal Spinks? 35-0 31KOs 7 title defenses

[JohnBKelly]

As long as Ali was alive and able to communicate Joe Frazier would have no peace if he retired back in 1971. Imagine an angry Ali standing in your garden at 4 every morning calling you a yellow Uncle Tom who only beat me because "the man" bought the judges. Don't kid yourself that this kind of thing didn't happen between 1971 and 1973.

Poor Joe only a man with genuine inner peace could put up with Ali pursuing him before he laced on the gloves again. As it was back 1971 Joe wasn't rich enough to quit, come to think of it Joe still isn't rich enough to quit!

So why would Joe retire in 1971 when even a blind man could see that there were millions to be made by fighting Ali again, just not straight away. When Marciano retired the division was in the doldrums, there was no big paydays within easy reach. Thats why Rocky could walk away without losing face. That option was not available to Smokin Joe.

[brownpimp88]

Jerry Quarry is a better win than jersey joe walcott in my opinion. Rex Layne, Joey maxim and Elmer Ray beat a prime walcott, why cant quarry. Walcott is 10-12 overall against ranked fighters, yeah thats not so impressive is it. I also believe that at heavyweight, quarry would beat archie moore.

[janitor]

Walcott and Charles have no chance of winning the title in the 70s.

Walcott would always have a chance of wining the title. It is inherant in his style.

[janitor]

Jerry Quarry is a better win than jersey joe walcott in my opinion. Rex Layne, Joey maxim and Elmer Ray beat a prime walcott, why cant quarry. Walcott is 10-12 overall against ranked fighters, yeah thats not so impressive is it. I also believe that at heavyweight, quarry would beat archie moore.

Walcott cleaned out the top 10 of his own era to get a shot at the title. We have to recognise him as being better than Quarry even if he could loose to a fighter of that calibre.

[ChrisPontius]

Walcott and Charles have no chance of winning the title in the 70s. Ali, Frazier and Foreman would all crucify them. They would be good contenders like Norton, Patterson, Quarry, Ellis, Lyle etc. Overrated 50s. Charles a true light heavy who would struggle against Bob Foster who both Frazier and Ali murdered. Walcott an old man who would never have a chance of winning the title in the 70s. Ali was the first guy to stop Bonavena. He was a tough fighter.

This is true. Quarry, Bonavena, Quarry, Ellis, Lyle, Shavers and Foster would all have been undisputed heavyweight champions in other eras. Also, no heavyweight that didn't fight in the 70's would stand a chance at winning the title during that era*. Lineal champions like Tyson, Holmes, Marciano, Lewis, Dempsey and Louis would share the same fate as Quarry, Bonavena etc in the 70's; being contenders but lose all big fights because they're fighting 70's heavyweights. They would still rank higher than they do now though, cause they get to lose to Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Lyle, etc.


*Unless you're 6-0-1 Leon Spinks.

[Dempsey1238]

Shavers would have failed at being champ in ANY era imo. The guy had a near shot Ali in front of him and failed. Spinks was able to do what Shavers SHOULD have done.

[Duodenum]

No, I don't think so. The key difference would have been Frazier's near loss to Bonavena in their first meeting. The granite jawed Marciano was never close to getting beaten in that way, never rocked as Ringo stunned Joe.

Beyond the fact that Rocky had nearly twice as many wins overall, I believe that yet another major factor would have been the rise of so many prominent heavyweights in the early 1970s. It may have been speculated that Frazier retired to avoid the upcoming crop of contenders. Naysayers may have also claimed that Ali rushed into the FOTC prematurely, with the expectation that the U.S. Supreme Court was going to rule against him on the draft issue.

In Marciano's case, there were really no more worlds to conquer after knocking out Moore. Nobody was in position at the time to be considered a promotable challenger by the public, and Archie was the most colorful figure Rocky could have defended against. With him dispatched in such convincing fashion, it was truly time to retire. He couldn't be accused of avoiding anybody.

After Frazier repelled Ali, many expected him to be able to dominate the heavyweights as long as he cared to. Foreman was widely expected to be another strong victim for Joe, the way the aggressive but fragile skinned Stander had been. However, after Frazier had been out of boxing for a couple of years following the FOTC, revisionists would have come out of the woodwork, claiming that Joe retired to avoid Norton, Shavers, Lyle and Foreman (among others). Marciano's reputation was at no risk of getting hampered in that way.

[red cobra]

Marciano's place in the annals of boxing is secure and his is the unique achievement of retiring with a perfect record after beating the best of his time. No, Joe Frazier dosen't compare to Rocky Marciano, not at all.

[Bill Butcher]

Yes because marciano never faced let alone beat a fighter of Ali`s quality.

If it was all about records, rocky would be voted continously the best ever but the reason Ali wins most votes is because he beat more great fighters.

Frazier ranks above marciano for me anyway, not by much tho.

[Dempsey1238]

More great fighters?? I think Ali beat more NAMES.

In regards to great, Marciano beat Walcott, Charles, Louis and Moore.

Ali has Liston, Foreman, and Frazier. And no Ken Norton, Chuck Wepner and Terrel dont count as great fighters.

[janitor]

Yes because marciano never faced let alone beat a fighter of Ali`s quality.


Ali is certainly better than anybody Marciano beat but beyond that it is Rocky all the way.

If you ranked the best people they beat combined it would look a bit like this.

1. Ali
2. Walcott
3. Charles
4. Moore
5. Old Louis
6. Quarry

[OLD FOGEY]

Yes because marciano never faced let alone beat a fighter of Ali`s quality.

If it was all about records, rocky would be voted continously the best ever but the reason Ali wins most votes is because he beat more great fighters.

Frazier ranks above marciano for me anyway, not by much tho.

Good points, but Ali and Foreman would never have beaten Frazier. Where would Ali's reputation have leveled off at if Frazier simply retired as his conquorer? And where would Foreman's be? if he had never beaten Frazier?

Food for thought.

My take is similar to a post by I am Legend which I recalled when I went back through the posts.

[RoccoMarciano]

how can you rank frazier above marciano when you throw in fraziers embarassing ko losses to foreman?

Would Rocky beat Foreman?

[RoccoMarciano]

Ali is certainly better than anybody Marciano beat but beyond that it is Rocky all the way.

If you ranked the best people they beat combined it would look a bit like this.

1. Ali
2. Walcott
3. Charles
4. Moore
5. Old Louis
6. Quarry
I don't understand the Ali ranking in that list based on the criteria you provide. The way I read it, Ali was beaten in some way....

Edit: Oops! I was thinking about Ali and Marciano.... Not Frazier and Marciano lol

[Ezzard]

Frazier was better than Marciano no matter how you look at it.

[RoccoMarciano]

Frazier was better than Marciano no matter how you look at it.

Would Frazier beat Ezzard?

[brownpimp88]

Ali is certainly better than anybody Marciano beat but beyond that it is Rocky all the way.

If you ranked the best people they beat combined it would look a bit like this.

1. Ali
2. Walcott
3. Charles
4. Moore
5. Old Louis
6. Quarry
Jerry Quarry ranks higher on heavyweight lists than archie moore does.

[janitor]

Jerry Quarry ranks higher on heavyweight lists than archie moore does.

I disagre.

Moore ran rampage in the heavyweight division under Marciano. He was the clear cut No2 guy in the last part of Marcianos run as champion.

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[brownpimp88]

Jerry Quarry has a better heavyweight resume.

[Dempsey1238]

Jerry Quarry has a better heavyweight resume.

In regards to losses I hope. Sure if he had Ali on his record, thats better than any one the Rock fought. Does not matter if Quarry lost to Ali. Might as well rank Chuck Wepner over Marciano as he fought BOTH Ali and Liston.

[janitor]

Jerry Quarry has a better heavyweight resume.

Debatable.

Nino Valdez and Bob Baker were the two big boys on the block after Joe Walcott and Ezzard Charles fell out of the picture. Moore beat both of them.

He was certainly a better win relative to his own era than Quarry was relative to his own era.

Having said that I can understand how you might think he was a better win.

[brownpimp88]

Debatable.

Nino Valdez and Bob Baker were the two big boys on the block after Joe Walcott and Ezzard Charles fell out of the picture. Moore beat both of them.

He was certainly a better win relative to his own era than Quarry was relative to his own era.

Having said that I can understand how you might think he was a better win.
Its just that jerry quarrys overall list of wins at heavyweight is more impressive than archies wins at that weight and not to mention that quarry was in the prime of his career when frazier fought him.

[brownpimp88]

In regards to losses I hope. Sure if he had Ali on his record, thats better than any one the Rock fought. Does not matter if Quarry lost to Ali. Might as well rank Chuck Wepner over Marciano as he fought BOTH Ali and Liston.
Do floyd patterson, ron lyle and eanrie shavers ring a bell?

[RoccoMarciano]

Its just that jerry quarrys overall list of wins at heavyweight is more impressive than archies wins at that weight and not to mention that quarry was in the prime of his career when frazier fought him.
Edit: never mind

[Dempsey1238]

Do floyd patterson, ron lyle and eanrie shavers ring a bell?

Patterson ok, but Lyle and Shavers are over rated, I put more stock in a win over prime Nino or Bob Shatterfiled than I would on Shavers or Lyle though.

[RoccoMarciano]

Patterson ok, but Lyle and Shavers are over rated, I put more stock in a win over prime Nino or Bob Shatterfiled than I would on Shavers or Lyle though.
Rocky beat the guys he needed to beat, end of story. I mean, was he supposed to beat every tom, dick and harry that laced on a pair of gloves?

Crowd draw means something as well....

Getting back to Frazier and Marciano... Marciano beats Frazier in lagacy and head to head - so Marciano has the higher rating regardless.

[Dempsey1238]

Rocky beat the guys he needed to beat, end of story. I mean, was he supposed to beat every tom, dick and harry that laced on a pair of gloves?

Crowd draw means something as well....

Getting back to Frazier and Marciano... Marciano beats Frazier in lagacy and head to head - so Marciano has the higher rating regardless.

Well Larry Holmes seem to have beating evey Dick, Tom and Harry, now these guys were not great fighters as he choose to face the weaker side instand of the Pages of the world. :D

[RoccoMarciano]

Well Larry Holmes seem to have beating evey Dick, Tom and Harry, now these guys were not great fighters as he choose to face the weaker side instand of the Pages of the world. :D
Holmes has nothing to do with Marciano and Frazier. Holmes pretty much cleaned out who he needed to clean out. Holmes had no fear in a boxing ring!

[Dempsey1238]

Holmes didnt clear out the best like Super Greg Page. Or unify the title. He had to relie on Mike Tyson to do it. Tyson clear it up.

[RoccoMarciano]

Holmes didnt clear out the best like Super Greg Page. Or unify the title. He had to relie on Mike Tyson to do it. Tyson clear it up.

BS, outside of Lewis, the last real linear champion we've had is Larry Holmes.

[Dempsey1238]

We had Tyson, Spinks, and Holyfiled. Holmes was not the last.

[RoccoMarciano]

We had Tyson, Spinks, and Holyfiled. Holmes was not the last.

Are any of those guys worthy?

[Dempsey1238]

Yes, they were prove there worth. Tyson clean up the divsion Holmes SHOULD have done, Holyfiled brought glory to the divsion during the Tyson prison years with Bowe. With 2 classic title fights.

[RoccoMarciano]

Ok :)

[Bill1234]

Holmes didnt clear out the best like Super Greg Page. Or unify the title. He had to relie on Mike Tyson to do it. Tyson clear it up.

Back then it was damn near impossible to do so if you weren't a huge attraction like Tyson. Did any of the other guys unify back in Holmes's era? No. They were beating each other for the same titles, while Holmes was staying the dominant champ. It also didn't help with the alpha organizations gaining more and more power every year. After Holmes ditched King in '83 he avoided dealing with King as much as possible. If Larry was offered the right money, he would have fought anyone. Larry is mainly blamed for not unifying because he was the best out there. If Page was the best out there he would get blamed and so on.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Yes, definitely.

[janitor]

Its just that jerry quarrys overall list of wins at heavyweight is more impressive than archies wins at that weight and not to mention that quarry was in the prime of his career when frazier fought him.

Moore was the Bernard Hopkins of his era.

He was old but he was still the best man at his own weight and possibly the weight above. He was that good technicaly.

I would be interested to compare the resumes of Moore and Quarry tomorrow but right now I have just come out of Calzaghe Kessler which involved the consumption of many pints.

Good night B,P

[RoccoMarciano]

Back then it was damn near impossible to do so if you weren't a huge attraction like Tyson. Did any of the other guys unify back in Holmes's era? No. They were beating each other for the same titles, while Holmes was staying the dominant champ. It also didn't help with the alpha organizations gaining more and more power every year. After Holmes ditched King in '83 he avoided dealing with King as much as possible. If Larry was offered the right money, he would have fought anyone. Larry is mainly blamed for not unifying because he was the best out there. If Page was the best out there he would get blamed and so on.
I think Dempsey is trying to get your goat :)

He does some good classic posts.

[brownpimp88]

Moore was the Bernard Hopkins of his era.

He was old but he was still the best man at his own weight and possibly the weight above. He was that good technicaly.

I would be interested to compare the resumes of Moore and Quarry tomorrow but right now I have just come out of Calzaghe Kessler which involved the consumption of many pints.

Good night B,P
If Marciano's win over moore is as legit as you claim, then what does that make floyd patterson's win over archie morre, cuz the 'great' floyd patterson handled moore pretty easily and Floyd started his career at 163lbs.

Even though I had paterson beating quarry too, it still doesnt change the fact that quarry gave floyd a much better fight than archie did.

[ChrisPontius]

Back then it was damn near impossible to do so if you weren't a huge attraction like Tyson. Did any of the other guys unify back in Holmes's era? No. They were beating each other for the same titles, while Holmes was staying the dominant champ. It also didn't help with the alpha organizations gaining more and more power every year. After Holmes ditched King in '83 he avoided dealing with King as much as possible. If Larry was offered the right money, he would have fought anyone. Larry is mainly blamed for not unifying because he was the best out there. If Page was the best out there he would get blamed and so on.

Dropping your title belt to avoid a mandatory doesn't get you closer to unifying though ;)

Or actually, maybe it did, because when Holmes was gifted the at that point meaningless IBF belt, it became somewhat meaningful.

[JohnThomas1]

Dropping your title belt to avoid a mandatory doesn't get you closer to unifying though ;)

Or actually, maybe it did, because when Holmes was gifted the at that point meaningless IBF belt, it became somewhat meaningful.

Holmes and Tate were on a colision course for a unification bout before Weaver crashed the party. Weaver expressed interest but things never really took off. Perhaps if he could have avoided injury and stayed more active public appeal would have meant big bucks.

[Bill1234]

One thing I wish happend was since Cooney was ranked #1 in the WBC and the WBA (I think, it might have been WBO), I wish Cooney would have fought for that, won, and fought Holmes. Even Larry would deal with King for the 10 mill + some more because it would be a unification bout.

[Bill1234]

Dropping your title belt to avoid a mandatory doesn't get you closer to unifying though ;)

Or actually, maybe it did, because when Holmes was gifted the at that point meaningless IBF belt, it became somewhat meaningful.

But it wasn't necisarily to avoid Page, it was to get rid of all of the people who were cheating him and making every fight to get set up hell. Also at that point Holmes ditched King and wanted nothing to do with him if he could help it, even if it meant dropping his belt and picking another one up. Larry was the linear champ, even with out a belt he would have been known as the champ.

[brownpimp88]

Yeah i dont understand why Gerry Cooney never went after an abc belt in the 80s, he could have easily won one of them.

[Bill1234]

Yeah i dont understand why Gerry Cooney never went after an abc belt in the 80s, he could have easily won one of them.

I agree, maybe not easily, but I feel he could have won at least one. Then if he went after Holmes, it would be a bigger money fight, and at that stage, the longer it drags out, the bigger disadvantage it is to Holmes because he was already aging. IMO the Cooney fight was his last peak fight.

[brownpimp88]

I agree, maybe not easily, but I feel he could have won at least one. Then if he went after Holmes, it would be a bigger money fight, and at that stage, the longer it drags out, the bigger disadvantage it is to Holmes because he was already aging. IMO the Cooney fight was his last peak fight.
How much money did larry and spinks make for thier fight?

[prime]

Implausible scenario, but, in general terms, Frazier would be ranked a bit higher than he is. Those fond of Marciano would continue to rank the Rock above Frazier, though.

Frazier's two knockdowns at the hands of Bonavena would probably not diminish his standing, as this happened in Joe's 12th pro fight, against a considerably more experienced man he still beat.

And a 27-fight career would not necessarily diminish his standing either, as James Jeffries has been consistently ranked among the top-ten heavies on the strength of a 23-fight career.

Frazier would be picked to beat George Foreman in a fantasy matchup, as he actually was in their fight in Jamaica. People would forever remember Frazier, the Sherman tank, running over a fantastic fighter at FOTC, taking those mean shots for 15 rounds and still having the kitchen sink in store at the end.

Frazier would be considered a giant killer, who could hold his own with any heavyweight ever.

[Marciano Frazier]

Implausible scenario, but, in general terms, Frazier would be ranked a bit higher than he is. Those fond of Marciano would continue to rank the Rock above Frazier, though.

Frazier's two knockdowns at the hands of Bonavena would probably not diminish his standing, as this happened in Joe's 12th pro fight, against a considerably more experienced man he still beat.
Well, I don't think the Bonavena knockdowns are terribly significant, but had Frazier retired after the Ali fight, at 27-0, then in such a short career it would stand out as one of the highlights and main criticisms one could level against him- look, for example, at how much flack Marciano takes for suffering knockdowns against Walcott and Moore, even though those were only single early-round knockdowns from which he was up within three seconds with no apparent ill effect and recovered to win by crushing knockout. With Frazier, having been down twice and taken to a split decision against Bonavena would be one of those chorus lines his critics would drum up every time someone argued for his standing at the top of the historical pile, although the argument that he was inexperienced(very true) would serve to fight back that siege on some fronts.

And a 27-fight career would not necessarily diminish his standing either, as James Jeffries has been consistently ranked among the top-ten heavies on the strength of a 23-fight career.
Jeffries is no longer consistently ranked among the top 10, and even for many of those who do have him there(myself included), his career having spanned only 23 fights certainly does hurt his standing. In my opinion, this would be one of the main knocks on Joe had he retired at that time; retiring well inside his 20s and with only 27 pro fights would leave many feeling that his career was incomplete and his retirement premature. I expect most people would rank him higher than they do as is and there would probably be a noticeable minority that would place him among the absolute elites, maybe top 3 or even #1 of all time, but the majority would still have him below Rocky due to his having had barely over half as many fights and retired with so many more fights out there to make.

[albinored]

....if frazier had retired that early he wouldn't have left much of a legacy...too few fights. even as it is now with frazier's full career, there are still those who rate him under marciano, which i find incomprehensible. okay, marciano has that 49-0, but head to head frazier would beat him,and i don't rate frazier as an all-time great fighter.

[janitor]

[quote=brownpimp88]If Marciano's win over moore is as legit as you claim, then what does that make floyd patterson's win over archie morre, cuz the 'great' floyd patterson handled moore pretty easily and Floyd started his career at 163lbs.


Floyd was himself a great fighter and a verry bad matchup for Moore stylisticaly. It is also purported It is also purported that Moore had injuries going into this fight.


Even though I had paterson beating quarry too, it still doesnt change the fact that quarry gave floyd a much better fight than archie did.


Yes but you can make that logic go both ways.

Harold Johnson gave Doug Jones a much better fight than Muhamad Ali did.

Floyd Patterson Harold Johnson and Ingemar Johansen gave Eddie Machen a much better fight than Sonny Liston did.

Bob Satterfield disposed of Cleavland Williams more decisively than Sonny Liston did.

etc etc

[ChrisPontius]

....if frazier had retired that early he wouldn't have left much of a legacy...too few fights. even as it is now with frazier's full career, there are still those who rate him under marciano, which i find incomprehensible. okay, marciano has that 49-0, but head to head frazier would beat him,and i don't rate frazier as an all-time great fighter.

What are your reasons for thinking Frazier would beat Marciano and why don't you rate Frazier as an all-time great fighter?

[Mendoza]

Side note. No, I don't think Frazier ranks above Maricano if he retired after the first Ali fight. How about this question! If Frazier never fought and was embarrassed by Foreman, then would he rank higher than Marciano?

[prime]

I expect most people would rank him higher than they do as is and there would probably be a noticeable minority that would place him among the absolute elites, maybe top 3 or even #1 of all time, but the majority would still have him below Rocky due to his having had barely over half as many fights and retired with so many more fights out there to make.

Agreed. A couple of points:

FOTC closed the book on Frazier's best; nothing he did later added to his standing. In all-time debates, it would be Frazier's best performances that would speak for him. Though Rocky had 49 unblemished wins, many more than a mere 27, Frazier's best wins against Ali, Ellis, Quarry, Bonavena and Foster objectively have to weigh more than Marciano's wins over Walcott, Charles, LaStarza, Cockell and Moore.

Plus, head-to-head, Frazier matches up quite evenly with Marciano, including an about-20-pound weight advantage.

Let's remember that Frazier's standing is diminished mostly by his loss to Foreman; remove that huge wart and Frazier looks pretty indomitable, especially because he beat Muhammad Ali.

Actually, I don't think there were that many fights out there left for Frazier after FOTC. He had 10 defenses of at least parts of the title under his belt and had convincingly turned back his biggest challenge.
Foreman, for instance, was still considered too green at 20 fights and would have been a huge underdog against Frazier in 1971.

[Dempsey1238]

Ali maybe., But I cant put Fraizer's wins over Ellis, Quarry, Bonavena and Foster pass Marciano's thumpings on Moore, Walcott, and Charles, I belive Moore, Walcott and Charles were BETTER fighters and a level above Ellis, Quarry, and Bonavena, They are indeed a level about the guys Fraizer beat.

[Bill1234]

How much money did larry and spinks make for thier fight?

I think it was like 3 mill. Not sure, I'll have to check up on it.

[albinored]

pontius..I think Frazier would have beaten Marciano because neither fighter could fight backing up, and i think Frazier's faster left hook would have got to Marciano quicker and harder than Marciano's wild overhand right. Plus,Frazier had better balance. So, I think Marciano would have given ground first.

I don't rate Frazier as an all-time great because while he was a force to contend with he didn't have a style that he could adept to an opponent's problems....just charge in and wing that wide left hook. I have him somewhere near the top of the second tier.

[ChrisPontius]

So you rank Foreman at the top of the second tier too then?