An Arguement For the Re-Evaluation of the Career of Fernando Vargas

[acb]

It seems that the general consensus on the career of Vargas here on ESB is that he was a good fighter, who never reached greatness. Many posters even go so far as to argue that he was not much more than a crude brawler. I would like to put forth an arguement that he was more, and to see if you would agree.

First, we can evaluate his competition and his wins. His two obvious wins of note are against Ike Quartey and Winky Wright, both of which he achieved at at a young age. We often consider fighters such as Shane Mosely and DLH as "greats". Yet, Mosely's biggest two wins are DLH (twice), while DLH's biggest wins (not names, which would be a past it Chavez and Pea... but wins) are Vargas and Quartey. These wins, at least on the surface to me, don't seem enough to place these two fighters in such a different class as that of Vargas, especialy given that his best win comes over a fighter who trumped Mosely two times and which most boxing scribes believe would have beaten Oscar. Now, admitedly, both Mosely and DLH have had careers of longer duration, and that is ultimately and rightly what places them above Vargas. I will return to that point.

Now- to the misconception that Vargas was a crude brawler. This irritates me, because at his best he was instead a young, patient, preasure fighter who was adept at using angles when his opponent was on the ropes. He had a decent jab, a well timed right cross when moving forward, and an excellent hook to the body. On top of all of this, he was remarkably poised for a fighter of his age.

The Vargas that we seem to remember though, is the post Trinidad version, who would never be the same fighter. Trinidad took many of his best attributes from him in the ring that night. People often point to his shakey chin as the greatest casualty of that fight. In my opinion it was his ability to come forward and preasure fighters that was lost that hurt him the most. At his best, his defense was this very preasure- it was what protected him the most. The post Trinidad version would instead become a pensive fighter that would stay in punching range, unable to commit, and without any other defensive technique to protect himself.

I would argue that Vargas should be re-evaluated on two fronts. Given his wins over Quartey and Wright, at such a young age, and the effectiveness of his style as a disciplined preasure fighter that has been increasingly mischarachterized over the years- it seems that if we don't give him the label of a great fighter, he should at least be thought of in the category of young fighters who experience greatness, but whose careers see their peak early and never again.

[EARL]

I don't see how anyone could say that Vargas chin was ever shakey. A shakey chinned fighter wouldn't take eleven and a half rounds worth of Felix Trinidad's power punches.

[41fever]

Vargas did great in his career. I wish his handlers would of paid attention to his mental maturity, not just his physical.

[kirk]

Great post and ive been arguing this for almost 5 years and dont have the patients anymore to debate with people who are too blind or dumb to see vargas was a special fighter pre tito.


let me just say this

IN A 12 MONTH SPAN, which is ONE YEAR obviously

he fought Winky Wright in his 18th pro fight
he then fought Ike Quartey for his 19th pro fight
he then fought ross thompson as a tune up for his 20th
he then had a superfight with trinidad in his 21st pro fight

he fought Trinidad when he was 21 years old about, and had 20 fights, and he fought the above fights in a one year span. Lets compare that to todays prospects.

He also drew Trinidad into one of the best ever fights at 154lbs, and took tito to the limit in his 21st fight. Still ranks as one of titos hardest fought wins, and best fights.

That is crazy, there is a REASON he was in the rings top 10 p4p fighters for the year 1999.

[eliqueiros]

Vargas was a solid fighter. He beat Quartey and Winky. He should have stayed away from the fighters with the best left hooks in boxing until he could develop a defense to it that worked.

[kirk]

Also, lets remember that the complete shell of vargas fought shane mosley hard in their first fight (which was the dirt on the coffin that oscar already nailed shut), a mosley that is still being competetive against currect stars and p4p fighters like mosley. That, to me, says all there is to say.

[KO Boxing]

Great post and ive been arguing this for almost 5 years and dont have the patients anymore to debate with people who are too blind or dumb to see vargas was a special fighter pre tito.


let me just say this

IN A 12 MONTH SPAN, which is ONE YEAR obviously

he fought Winky Wright in his 18th pro fight
he then fought Ike Quartey for his 19th pro fight
he then fought ross thompson as a tune up for his 20th
he then had a superfight with trinidad in his 21st pro fight

he fought Trinidad when he was 21 years old about, and had 20 fights, and he fought all those fights in a one year span.

That is crazy, there is a REASON he was in the rings top 10 p4p fighters for the year 1999.
The man also did himself REAL proud against Trinidad, which at 21 and with 20 fights, is all the more impressive.

I agree. Pre Tito Vargas was one of my favourite fighters; enough for me to believe he had enough left to beat Dela Hoya. Or at least REALLY want him to. :yep

Post Oscar, Vargas kind of fell into the background (barring the Mosely fights, maybe). And that was what, 2002? Many people would have forgotten, or for some people who have only started watching boxing recently, have never even seen, a prime Vargas.

With THAT said, I thought he lost the Wright fight 7-5 (haven't seen and scored it in ages though).

Awesome fighter. I'd say HOFer. Not an ATG. But can a fighter still be a "great fighter" without being an ATG?

[kirk]

Im a self proclaimed biggest fan of vargas, he was my hero when i was a kid and most people who know me on here know im a die hard feroz fan... and have been since day 1. Ive talked to him on the phone, hes put stuff of mine on his site, ect, ect... but not even i am going to call him a GREAT FIGHTER or ATG or anything like that, i just want to see him get the respect he deserves, he put his life on the line every fight to win... and of all the fighters we complain about their holding, their this, their that... he went out their and gave the fans everything he had.

[KO Boxing]

Im a self proclaimed biggest fan of vargas, he was my hero when i was a kid and most people who know me on here know im a die hard feroz fan... and have been since day 1. Ive talked to him on the phone, hes put stuff of mine on his site, ect, ect... but not even i am going to call him a GREAT FIGHTER or ATG or anything like that, i just want to see him get the respect he deserves, he put his life on the line every fight to win... and of all the fighters we complain about their holding, their this, their that... he went out their and gave the fans everything he had.
:good

[Sweet Pea Pacquiao]

Great post and ive been arguing this for almost 5 years and dont have the patients anymore to debate with people who are too blind or dumb to see vargas was a special fighter pre tito.


let me just say this

IN A 12 MONTH SPAN, which is ONE YEAR obviously

he fought Winky Wright in his 18th pro fight
he then fought Ike Quartey for his 19th pro fight
he then fought ross thompson as a tune up for his 20th
he then had a superfight with trinidad in his 21st pro fight

he fought Trinidad when he was 21 years old about, and had 20 fights, and he fought the above fights in a one year span. Lets compare that to todays prospects.

He also drew Trinidad into one of the best ever fights at 154lbs, and took tito to the limit in his 21st fight. Still ranks as one of titos hardest fought wins, and best fights.

That is crazy, there is a REASON he was in the rings top 10 p4p fighters for the year 1999.

Good post. Vargas had achieved more--or just as much--by age 21 than most P4Pers before 30.

Hell, Vargas's resume is three times more challenging than Calzaghe's was.

[jimmie]

I feel like killing Vargas haters or disrespectors in cold blood sometime for being so dam stupid. Fernando Vargas at one time was a great fighter it didnt last long and theres reasons for that some of which have to do with Vargas like his weight problem but it cant take away what he accomplished. He was one of the youngest Champs in the history of the sport making a prime Yory Boy Campas look like a child in there,gave Raul Marquez a true beating and its really beautiful to watch Vargas in that fight he displayed so much good skill and technique vs a solid top 10 Junior Middleweight titlist. Then you got him BEATING Winky Wright im tired of people who never even saw the fight coming in and saying Wright won 9 rounds and was robbed please fuck off and watch this fight then come back it was of the closest bouts ive seen could be a 1 point fight either way personally the 1st time I seen it I gave it to Fernando by a point then last winter I had it a draw. One thing that can be said those is when the pressure was on in that fight to do some Fernando Vargas was the one who dared to be great and pulled out a victory. Also look at what he did to Ike Quartey I wouldnt say he dominated him but he was the 1st guy to ever get a legitmate victory over him even though he got deducted a point. He took away Ikes jab and established his own jab,he used angles and good footwork,beat up Ike on the inside and pulled out a masterful performence considering the level of his opponet. Ok he lost to DLH and Trinidad both fights which he took them to the brink of defeat and even Tito needed 3 delibrate low blows honestly without I think Vargas goes on to win that fight the momentum was clearly in his favor ever time Tito low blowed. He lost close tough fights agianst ATGs where he went out like a real Champion. Even in his latter career when he clearly suffering from a back injury and struggling to make weight he clearly beat 2 solid contenders Ray Joval and Javier Castejllo and took Shane Mosley to a very close fight with 1 eye pretty much. Im going to miss Fernando if I had a vote he would make the HOF.

[jupzrooni]

Great post and ive been arguing this for almost 5 years and dont have the patients anymore to debate with people who are too blind or dumb to see vargas was a special fighter pre tito.


let me just say this

IN A 12 MONTH SPAN, which is ONE YEAR obviously

he fought Winky Wright in his 18th pro fight
he then fought Ike Quartey for his 19th pro fight
he then fought ross thompson as a tune up for his 20th
he then had a superfight with trinidad in his 21st pro fight

he fought Trinidad when he was 21 years old about, and had 20 fights, and he fought the above fights in a one year span. Lets compare that to todays prospects.

He also drew Trinidad into one of the best ever fights at 154lbs, and took tito to the limit in his 21st fight. Still ranks as one of titos hardest fought wins, and best fights.

That is crazy, there is a REASON he was in the rings top 10 p4p fighters for the year 1999.

i wish we could have seen the best of fernando vargas if not for his handlers pitting him too early against trinidad

now he is shot.:-(

[acb]

No, Vargas is not in the same league as Trinidad, De La hoya or Mosley, becuase he lacked SPEED, as jim lampley once said. he did not have the speed of a great fighter, and it cost him in his major fights.

This is a limited way to look at at fighter. There have been many great fighters who weren't fast in comparison their contemporaries. Alexis Arguello comes to mind immediately. Winky Wright is another.

[jimmie]

i wish we could have seen the best of fernando vargas if not for his handlers pitting him too early against trinidad

now he is shot.:-(

When was he supposed to fight Trinidad then ? He had beat Winky Wright who sure had no problem 4 years later tooling Tito,Ike Quartey who did alot fucking better vs DLH then Tito did,beat Campas even worse then Tito. Theres nothing that couldve prepared Vargas for that 1st lefthook he ate and Vargas is a stuborn man hes always going to jump right up after being KD as soon as possible hes did in late in his career too. If it didnt happen in December 2000 it wouldve just happened the same way if they ever did fight. Even with all thats said Vargas still had his good moments show me one guy whos ever going to be socked in the balls delibrate 3 times.

[Nigel_Benn]

Vargas didnt have speed? He looked pretty fast to me when he fought Ike, Vargas is one of my faves because he always fought for the fans and wanted to fight the best.

[Grinder]

Vargas was ruined by Trinidad, which was a shame. But you can't extrapolate and say he woul've been great otherwise and therefore he was great. He was a good fighter with balls but he was never the same after Tito. Tito was a career ender for many fighters including Vargas.

Read some posts about Margarito and Tito. Margo has a chin but I think prime Tito would end Margo.

[jimmie]

Vargas didnt have speed? He looked pretty fast to me when he fought Ike, Vargas is one of my faves because he always fought for the fans and wanted to fight the best.

Agreed Nigel. Vargas had some speed at his peak obviously not on ODLH or SMM level but it was above average and he put together combos.

[BlueApollo]

What hurts Vargas terribly in any head to head comparison with guys like Oscar, Shane, even Tito although to a far lesser degree, is that the substantive part of his career had absolutely no longevity. Part of this was due to the beating he got from Tito, but a heck of a lot of it wasn't. He didn't take care of himself properly between fights. Then his body started giving out on him via the thyroid problem, which of course he had no control over. No they aren't what they used to be by any degree, but Oscar is still fighting at a world class level, and Shane is still a top five welterweight. The half-generation younger Vargas is retired.

I'm not into bashing Vargas at all. His fight with Tito was a 90's classic. People can call him "slow", "fat", whatever they want, but he was EXTREMELY sound technically, and at a ridiculously young age. How many twenty year old fighters are going to come along and hold their own in a high level boxing contest, as opposed to a sheer brawl, with a great fighter like a prime Winky Wright? Given what an older Winky ended up doing to Tito, that win, controversial or not, was an amazing accomplishment.

Fernando's body just couldn't withstand the constant punishment of hard fights, training, and a fast life. He was a similar talent to his peers, but not as great a fighter.

[eliqueiros]

What hurts Vargas terribly in any head to head comparison with guys like Oscar, Shane, even Tito although to a far lesser degree, is that the substantive part of his career had absolutely no longevity. Part of this was due to the beating he got from Tito, but a heck of a lot of it wasn't. He didn't take care of himself properly between fights. Then his body started giving out on him via the thyroid problem, which of course he had no control over. No they aren't what they used to be by any degree, but Oscar is still fighting at a world class level, and Shane is still a top five welterweight. The half-generation younger Vargas is retired.

I'm not into bashing Vargas at all. His fight with Tito was a 90's classic. People can call him "slow", "fat", whatever they want, but he was EXTREMELY sound technically, and at a ridiculously young age. How many twenty year old fighters are going to come along and hold their own in a high level boxing contest, as opposed to a sheer brawl, with a great fighter like a prime Winky Wright? Given what an older Winky ended up doing to Tito, that win, controversial or not, was an amazing accomplishment.

Fernando's body just couldn't withstand the constant punishment of hard fights, training, and a fast life. He was a similar talent to his peers, but not as great a fighter.

Best post:good

[Ramshall1]

Agreed, many reactionist type fans look at his losses and over-react to them IMO. Then turn around and under-react to his solid wins.

The one thing no one can ever take away from Vargas is his Courage, the dude laid it on the line every time he stepped in the ring. . . win lose or draw - you knew he was gonna give everything he had.

[bigtime-skills]

When was he supposed to fight Trinidad then ? He had beat Winky Wright who sure had no problem 4 years later tooling Tito,Ike Quartey who did alot fucking better vs DLH then Tito did,beat Campas even worse then Tito. Theres nothing that couldve prepared Vargas for that 1st lefthook he ate and Vargas is a stuborn man hes always going to jump right up after being KD as soon as possible hes did in late in his career too. If it didnt happen in December 2000 it wouldve just happened the same way if they ever did fight. Even with all thats said Vargas still had his good moments show me one guy whos ever going to be socked in the balls delibrate 3 times.

:-( Vargas is indeed a tragedy...............

He didn't beat Yori Boy worse than Tito.:good

[EpsilonAxis]

Prime vargas got outpointed by Ricardo Mayorga...:lol: