15 rounds for championship fights.

[yancey]

Do you all miss the old 15 round standard for championship fights?

I sure do.

[RoccoMarciano]

While I respect what was behind why they changed it, I still think fighting longer helped to prove stamina.

[Russell]

They might come back, hearing what's been going on with the sanctioning bodies lately.

[Sister Sledge]

I think if the 15 rounders were still around, we would have more undisputed champions. Not many guys can go 15 hard rounds. I also don't think they really impacted the health of fighters. There are just as many fighters dying fighting 12 rounds. They would make for more meaningful fights.

[RoccoMarciano]

I think if the 15 rounders were still around, we would have more undisputed champions. Not many guys can go 15 hard rounds. I also don't think they really impacted the health of fighters. There are just as many fighters dying fighting 12 rounds. They would make for more meaningful fights.

Something to think about I suppose. I haven't followed the statistics regarding whether what it was based upon had much of an impact or not.

Anyway, I'm a fan of heart and stamina. If the change didn't accomplish the good for which it was intended, I'm in favour of increasing fights to 15 rounds as it may accomplish some things for boxing.

[Sister Sledge]

Something to think about I suppose. I haven't followed the statistics regarding whether what it was based upon had much of an impact or not.

Anyway, I'm a fan of heart and stamina. If the change didn't accomplish the good for which it was intended, I'm in favour of increasing fights to 15 rounds as it may accomplish some things for boxing.

Just think about it; would there be a debate about the Leonard-Hagler fighter had it gone 15?

[Robbi]

Yeah, I'd like to see 15 rounders back. Certainly interesting to see how todays athletes would cope with the extra three rounds. The reason 15 rounders suddenly came to a halt was that many fatalities were happening late down the stretch. Doo-Kim's death was the begining of the end.

[RoccoMarciano]

Just think about it; would there be a debate about the Leonard-Hagler fighter had it gone 15?

Probably... if Hagler didn't KO him in the final three... we would still have Leonard huggers who tell us he won.

[Robbi]

Probably... if Hagler didn't KO him in the final three... we would still have Leonard huggers who tell us he won.

Leonard never done too badly during the 12th. Maybe he would have got a third win and won two of the last three rounds. Who knows.

[Sister Sledge]

Probably... if Hagler didn't KO him in the final three... we would still have Leonard huggers who tell us he won.

I don't think so. Leonard was fading badly and only fighting in the final moments of the rounds. Hagler was getting better as the fight continued. I think Hagler would have won unanimously. Also De la Hoya would have ko'd Ike Quartey had it been a 15 round fight.

[RoccoMarciano]

The reason 15 rounders suddenly came to a halt was that many fatalities were happening late down the stretch. Doo-Kim's death was the begining of the end.

That is precisely what brought about the change. Have you ever read any follow up regarding whether deaths have been decreased due to this change?

[RoccoMarciano]

I don't think so. Leonard was fading badly and only fighting in the final moments of the rounds. Hagler was getting better as the fight continued. I think Hagler would have won unanimously. Also De la Hoya would have ko'd Ike Quartey had it been a 15 round fight.

I don't think you understand just how much some hug Leonard. Hagler could have knocked the little toad on his arse 10 times in the 12 rounds they fought and that wouldn't change. Three extra rounds isn't going to make any difference to them :D

[Robbi]

That is precisely what brought about the change. Have you ever read any follow up regarding whether deaths have been decreased due to this change?

No, I have never read any stats on it at all. But lets be honest, a fighter taking a slow but gradual pounding over the course of a 15 rounder is more likely to suffer greater damage between his ears. But one thing which needs to be added here, the medical equipment. It's much more advanced than it was over 20 years ago. Precautions are also administered quicker these days as well.

[Sister Sledge]

That is precisely what brought about the change. Have you ever read any follow up regarding whether deaths have been decreased due to this change?

It wasn't quite that sudden. It was talked about for years, and each santioning body gradually ended them. The Mancini-Kim fight was the catalyst, though.
The are still ring deaths, though, so I don't believe anything is going to change. Boxing is a dangerous sport.

[Robbi]

Also De la Hoya would have ko'd Ike Quartey had it been a 15 round fight.

Not too sure about that. De La Hoya's arms were like sheets of lead halfway through the 12th round and he was fighting on even terms with Quartey during the closing stages of the fight. Quartey's head, once hazey and disorientated, became less so as the clock ticked down.

[Sister Sledge]

I think a lot of the damage is due to massive weight loss and liquid intake. Drinking a lot of liquids in a small amount of time can add a lot of pressure on your brain. Getting punched in a waterlogged head can not be good at all. That's why most of the deaths are at the smaller weights.

[RoccoMarciano]

No, I have never read any stats on it at all. But lets be honest, a fighter taking a slow but gradual pounding over the course of a 15 rounder is more likely to suffer greater damage between his ears. But one thing which needs to be added here, the medical equipment. It's much more advanced than it was over 20 years ago. Precautions are also administered quicker these days as well.

Of course medicine has advanced, but I'm still more of a stats guy.

I'd like to see proof the change from 15 to 12 made an immediate, measurable, difference.

While I appreciate why the change was made, I don't think the change accomplished very much.

[Sister Sledge]

Not too sure about that. De La Hoya's arms were like sheets of lead halfway through the 12th round and he was fighting on even terms with Quartey during the closing stages of the fight. Quartey's head, once hazey and disorientated, became less so as the clock ticked down.

I don't know about that. I personally thought the fight should have been stopped. Either way, Ike was fading fast, as he was known to do, and most likely be too exhausted to last the distance.

[Robbi]

I think a lot of the damage is due to massive weight loss and liquid intake. Drinking a lot of liquids in a small amount of time can add a lot of pressure on your brain. Getting punched in a waterlogged head can not be good at all. That's why most of the deaths are at the smaller weights.

The weigh-in on the same day as the fight. That gave fighters less time to re-hydrate themselves. However, bringing it back would mean fighters having to compete closer to their natural weight. Because losing 20lbs would be a massive risk if a fighter only had 7-8 hours to go before he stepped into the ring. Fighters having over 24 hours to get themselves together is a massive bonus.

[red cobra]

Amen, 15 rounds for championship fights.

[Sister Sledge]

The weigh-in on the same day as the fight. That gave fighters less time to re-hydrate themselves. However, bringing it back would mean fighters having to compete closer to their natural weight. Because losing 20lbs would be a massive risk if a fighter only had 7-8 hours to go before he stepped into the ring. Fighters having over 24 hours to get themselves together is a massive bonus.

I don't think there should be same-day weight-ins. They are more dangerous than 15 rounders.

The only reason they have the same day weight-ins is becasue Gatti was 160 for the fight when he raped Joey Gamache at Junior Welterweight.

[RoccoMarciano]

Amen, 15 rounds for championship fights.

I think real champs can take it... only question is, do we have any real champs?

[birddog]

i'd like to see them go back to 15 rounds also. Also same day weight in. Don't know if there are reliable stats as to weather 15 rounders caused any more deaths in the ring.

[Robbi]

I think real champs can take it... only question is, do we have any real champs?

Bring the old timers back from the dead.

[DaveTheWave]

Last weekend was the perfect example (and most recent) of the fact that championship fights need to be 15 rounds... We would have seen a more decisive winner. I still thought Calzaghe won, but things would be different if we had 15.

DelaHoya almost certainly would have been stopped or lost legitimately against Trinidad.
There are countless fights that would have really changed history as we know it if we had 15.

I ask myself why we don't go back to 15 every time there is a big fight on, or any championship fight.

15 rounds is the dividing line between fighters. These guys these days are not marked up, not tired, and look fresh after 12 rounds alot of the time... They can do 15.

[RoccoMarciano]

Bring the old timers back from the dead.

I'd love to see Hearns against Marciano:lol:

How long would it take for Hearns to get on his "bike".... there would be no bike as Hearns would get starched by the first punch.

[Mendoza]

They might come back, hearing what's been going on with the sanctioning bodies lately.

This is true. At the very least boxing can give us 15 roudn matches in title unification fights. Boxing is loisng fans to the MMA game. Giving us 15 rounds would bring a few fans back to boxing. At least that is what I think.

[teeto]

The reasonin' behind the 12 round championship fights is understood, but yea, i would like 15 rounds to return.

When i watched Holmes - Spinks 1, Spinks was boxing his awkward game really effectively, but when Ho calmes was gwttin' to him to the body in one of the later rounds (dont remember which 1), it was like - THUD, THUD! And it just looked like Mike was getting the energy sapped outta him by this much bigger guy, i was thinkin' (even though i knew the outcome!!), Spinks cant last any longer, this bigg guy is gunna take him out cos- this is 15 rounds!! Can he last?? But Spinks carried on and recouped and won it, went 15 rounds with the bigger, meaner guy and outhustled him. I really felt for Spinks during the last few rounds cos iy looked like he worked so hard for it.

What im sayin' is, when you watch boxers do 15, you feel like you're watchin' them do liife and death and you feel for them. Especuially in fights like Duran-Leonard 1.

13, 14, and 15 really are the championship rounds.

[red cobra]

I think real champs can take it... only question is, do we have any real champs?
I don't know about today, but in the past, the really elite fighters used the 15 round limit, that is the 13th tru 15th as though it were part of their arsenal. Guys like Monzon, Griffith, Pedroza and Ali, these men were masters of going 15. They would coast a bit in the middle rounds and then accelerate in the last three, particularly Monzon, and finish strong, dealing out punishment to tired opponents.

[teeto]

This is true. At the very least boxing can give us 15 roudn matches in title unification fights. Boxing is loisng fans to the MMA game. Giving us 15 rounds would bring a few fans back to boxing. At least that is what I think.
Mendoza , if that angle was put forward to the guys that run boxing, it could very well get 15 to return.

[Sonny's jab]

I dont know why 12 rounds was made standard.
Some people say it was because network TV required 12 so it could easily package it into a 1-hour slot. But with PPV it doesn't apply.
Otherwise it was a token act towards increasing safety.

I prefer 15 rounds as standard.

I believe in SAME DAY WEIGH-INS.
Fighters who dehydrate themselves too much should be sensible and move up a division.

I dont believe allowing 160 pound fighters to fight as welterweights is the answer, or having one guy at a legit 147-150 at fight time fighting a guy who's 165 and calling it welterweight.

[teeto]

I dont know why 12 rounds was made standard.
Some people say it was because network TV required 12 so it could easily package it into a 1-hour slot. But with PPV it doesn't apply.
Otherwise it was a token act towards increasing safety.

I prefer 15 rounds as standard.

I believe in SAME DAY WEIGH-INS.
Fighters who dehydrate themselves too much should be sensible and move up a division.

I dont believe allowing 160 pound fighters to fight as welterweights is the answer, or having one guy at a legit 147-150 at fight time fighting a guy who's 165 and calling it welterweight.

:good :good

[Ezzard]

I dont know why 12 rounds was made standard.
Some people say it was because network TV required 12 so it could easily package it into a 1-hour slot. But with PPV it doesn't apply.
Otherwise it was a token act towards increasing safety.

I prefer 15 rounds as standard.

I believe in SAME DAY WEIGH-INS.
Fighters who dehydrate themselves too much should be sensible and move up a division.

I dont believe allowing 160 pound fighters to fight as welterweights is the answer, or having one guy at a legit 147-150 at fight time fighting a guy who's 165 and calling it welterweight.

100% agree...

Got soem friends into boxing by showing them some classic 80s fights (colour TV helps them get into it more) and the first thing they remarked on was how today's boxers seem more like sprinters in the way they are built and in the way they fight.

[fists of fury]

I'm not sure making the fight 3 rounds longer will make fights any easier to decide. If you can't seperate them (the fighters) after 12 rounds, then what difference will the extra 3 make?
Close and controverial decisions will be a part of boxing forever, regardless of scheduled distance.

I'm all for the extra 3 rounds, but can you imagine watching someone like Ruiz for 15 rounds? Pure torture.

[Robbi]

I'm not sure making the fight 3 rounds longer will make fights any easier to decide. If you can't seperate them (the fighters) after 12 rounds, then what difference will the extra 3 make?
Close and controverial decisions will be a part of boxing forever, regardless of scheduled distance.

I'm all for the extra 3 rounds, but can you imagine watching someone like Ruiz for 15 rounds? Pure torture.

The extra 3 rounds would mean you couldn't get a draw with 10-9 rounds all the way with no point deductions. You can get 6 rounds each over a 12 round fight, thus a draw. But with 15 being an odd number then someone would edge it by a point.

[Sister Sledge]

I dont know why 12 rounds was made standard.
Some people say it was because network TV required 12 so it could easily package it into a 1-hour slot. But with PPV it doesn't apply.
Otherwise it was a token act towards increasing safety.

I prefer 15 rounds as standard.

I believe in SAME DAY WEIGH-INS.
Fighters who dehydrate themselves too much should be sensible and move up a division.

I dont believe allowing 160 pound fighters to fight as welterweights is the answer, or having one guy at a legit 147-150 at fight time fighting a guy who's 165 and calling it welterweight.

Same day weigh ins are the death of fighters.

[teeto]

Same day weigh ins are the death of fighters.
Not if tey would fight in the division they should

[sweetsci]

I have mixed feelings about same day weigh-ins. If all fighters would fight closer to their natural weights and not dehydrate to make a low weight, same day weigh-ins would work. But I fear that there would still be fighters looking for a perceived edge who would dehydrate and not have time to re-hydrate. 'Course I hate massive weight gains after the day-before weigh-ins, too. It's a tough issue.

On the other hand, I positively without a doubt think all world championship fights should be 15 rounds. Those last three rounds can really separate the men from the boys, so to speak. I think a lot of fights over the last 20+ years would have had more decisive results had they been scheduled for 15. Imagine if fights like Tate-Weaver, Louis-Conn, Marciano-Walcott, Leonard-Hearns I, and many others had been scheduled for 12. Boxing history would look a lot different.

[Lobotomy]

Cutting back from 15 to 12 rounds was a capitulation and accommodation to those interests who advocate an outright ban of boxing entirely. NEVER make any sort of concession to such opponents, because such a "strategic" retreat invariably turns into a rout. (How often has a corporation downsized into growth? How reasonable was it to expect boxing might benefit from a reduction in maximum number of rounds?) Boxing's abolitionists are getting their way, by virtue of the plummeting interest in the sport.

15 round classics on youtube certainly are not suffering from a lack of viewership. Boxing was a front page mainstream sport when championship fights were 15 rounds long. It's now a niche interest, a sports category for which Yahoo sports news usually has a blank page (unless the boxing news is negative). The 15 round distance improved viewership. The 12 round limit has destroyed it.

Reinstalling the championship distance will enhance safety by requiring improved conditioning amongst competitors. Steroid use may well become more of a liability for those aiming to compete at the championship level, since steroids generally enhance anaerobic development, not respiratory and cardiovascular conditioning. (And it would be hilarious to watch how the weights of the top heavyweight boxers plummet once they had to face the prospect of having to go 15 rounds again.) A situation which rewards the use of growth enhancing substances does not promote good health. A situation which handicaps those who do use them, like a 15 round distance, would promote improved natural health and conditioning.

I don't know if boxing has suffered irreversible damage with the irreplacible gap in it's history induced by the artificial and arbitrary imposition of the 12 round limit, but it has no chance whatsoever of returning to the sports mainstream without the restoration of the 15 round distance. (And not just for world championships either. It matters greatly that Ali had Bonavena and Mac Foster over the 15 round distance, adding tremendously to the prestige of those events.)

Concerning weight, Emile Griffith frequently weighed in under the junior middleweight limit for his middleweight title fights. Griff was a fitness fanatic who got caught cold by Hurricane Carter and stopped only the first time by a peak Monzon (but went the distance in their rematch), but no referee ever came close to counting ten over Emile. SRR came in well under 160 pounds most of the time, and nobpdy punched him out in over 200 fights. Henry Armstrong came in under the lightweight limit for some of his welterweight championship bouts. If in peak condition at 142 pounds, somebody's probably going to be better off competing as a welterweight. Let the opponent weaken himself by trying to make weight. Randy Shields was in the lower 140s for his challenges of Cuevas and Hearns. He gave Pipino 15 rounds of hell, and was only stopped by Hearns because of headbutt induced cuts, not by Tommy's normally lethal punching at 147. Dehydration deprives the brain of the impact cushioning fluid which a fully hydrated body enjoys.

[Sonny's jab]

Same day weigh ins are the death of fighters.

Well, I was watching boxing when they were standard and I dont remember everyone dying.

Like I said fighters need to be sensible. Perhaps doctors should monitor a fighter's hydration in the build-up to big fights.

When some fighters are "cheating" into lower divisions and going up against "legit" fighters in that division, then there's still a problem. If a fighter is over-matched AND forced to fight a superior opponent who is actually 15 pounds or two divisions heavier than advertised, that can be dangerous too.

[Bill1234]

I think 15 rounders should come back, they seperated the greats from the others, and they proved who was there to win. Just think, we never would have seen a great round like Holmes-Norton (15th), nor would Marciano ever have become the undefeated champion of the world. They also forced the people to be in shape, or they would get KTFO.

[RoccoMarciano]

I think 15 rounders should come back, they seperated the greats from the others, and they proved who was there to win. Just think, we never would have seen a great round like Holmes-Norton (15th), nor would Marciano ever have become the undefeated champion of the world. They also forced the people to be in shape, or they would get KTFO.

Marciano would have KOed Walcott a little earlier if it were a twelve rounder.

[Senya13]

It would only make the fighters box at slower pace than they do at 12 rounds. Fights would become more boring.

[JohnThomas1]

I'd love to see Hearns against Marciano:lol:

How long would it take for Hearns to get on his "bike".... there would be no bike as Hearns would get starched by the first punch.

Different story with a bigger version of Hearns tho, let us call him Lennox Lewis :good

[RoccoMarciano]

Different story with a bigger version of Hearns tho, let us call him Lennox Lewis :good

Then there needs to be a Rocky Kong :good

[JohnThomas1]

Then there needs to be a Rocky Kong :good

:lol:

That was a pretty fast concession :good

[RoccoMarciano]

:lol:

That was a pretty fast concession :good

How so? Lewis probably just eeks into the top 10 HWs of all time.... suggesting any version of Hearns amounts to that is comical. :D

[JohnThomas1]

How so? Lewis probably just eeks into the top 10 HWs of all time.... suggesting any version of Hearns amounts to that is comical. :D

Someone mentioned that? :lol:

What's comical is putting a Welterweight ATG vs a top 10 Heavyweight :roll:

:yep

[RoccoMarciano]

Someone mentioned that? :lol:

What's comical is putting a Welterweight ATG vs a top 10 Heavyweight :roll:

:yep
You're the one that wanted to puff him up to Lewis level, not me.

I merely said I would love to see Hearns take on Marciano.. Marciano was a tiny little dude compared to Lewis :hey

[JohnThomas1]

I merely said I would love to see Hearns take on Marciano..

Masochist!

Then again, Hearns hit pretty big at 175 and if he catches Rocky coming in wellll

:smoke

[RoccoMarciano]

Then again, Hearns hit pretty big at 175 and if he catches Rocky coming in wellll

:smoke
Marciano would give him a grin and proceed to pound out any brains that may be left after the first shot. OK, Hearns might last for more than one.... the benefit of that is explained above :lol:

I know we're just joking aroung with this, but if Hearns would have been a little bigger, I think a fight between him and Marciano would have been a good one. I think it would all come down to Hearns' ablity to take heavy blows.. Rocky would have his hands full against a better boxer.

[RockyJim]

10 round main events...12 rounds for US titles....AND...15 rounds for WORLD titles!!! I miss those days!!!

[Holmes' Jab]

Yes, it was the better format I think. Those final three rounds are a real acid test of courage, durability, stamina and in some cases a fighters relative ability to rally through adversity when behind in the fight, or hold out a bit further for the decision if they're ahead: amongst other things.

It's kind of like the mid point onwards of the fifth set in a tennis grand slam final, or a sudden death playoff in the US Masters, or needing a pass in the final few laps to win the MotoGp title. It seperates the true men from the boys and where mental fortitude is tested best. :good

[Bigcat]

15 rounds championship fights are something i think every top well conditioned fighter misses.. The last heavyweight scheduled 15 rounds title fight was Tyson v Biggs in Atlantic City NJ...

[ChrisPontius]

Cutting back from 15 to 12 rounds was a capitulation and accommodation to those interests who advocate an outright ban of boxing entirely. NEVER make any sort of concession to such opponents, because such a "strategic" retreat invariably turns into a rout. (How often has a corporation downsized into growth? How reasonable was it to expect boxing might benefit from a reduction in maximum number of rounds?) Boxing's abolitionists are getting their way, by virtue of the plummeting interest in the sport.

15 round classics on youtube certainly are not suffering from a lack of viewership. Boxing was a front page mainstream sport when championship fights were 15 rounds long. It's now a niche interest, a sports category for which Yahoo sports news usually has a blank page (unless the boxing news is negative). The 15 round distance improved viewership. The 12 round limit has destroyed it.

Reinstalling the championship distance will enhance safety by requiring improved conditioning amongst competitors. Steroid use may well become more of a liability for those aiming to compete at the championship level, since steroids generally enhance anaerobic development, not respiratory and cardiovascular conditioning. (And it would be hilarious to watch how the weights of the top heavyweight boxers plummet once they had to face the prospect of having to go 15 rounds again.) A situation which rewards the use of growth enhancing substances does not promote good health. A situation which handicaps those who do use them, like a 15 round distance, would promote improved natural health and conditioning.

I don't know if boxing has suffered irreversible damage with the irreplacible gap in it's history induced by the artificial and arbitrary imposition of the 12 round limit, but it has no chance whatsoever of returning to the sports mainstream without the restoration of the 15 round distance. (And not just for world championships either. It matters greatly that Ali had Bonavena and Mac Foster over the 15 round distance, adding tremendously to the prestige of those events.)


Sorry to bring it to you Lobotomy, but the mainstream fan - i.e. 90% of the guys that make boxing possible at a big level possible - don't give a flying fuck about the distance being 15 or 12 rounds. I know that in your mind the difference from 15 to 12 coincided with the decline of boxing, Mike Tyson destroying your hero Holmes, etc etc, but not everyone lives in your reality.

[birddog]

Wasn't the Mancini v Kim fight in 1982, one of the motivating excuses/reasons for the reduction to 12 rounds at the time. As Kim had never fought past 12 rounds previously.

[Robbi]

Wasn't the Mancini v Kim fight in 1982, one of the motivating excuses/reasons for the reduction to 12 rounds at the time. As Kim had never fought past 12 rounds previously.

Yes, but it was the WBC who first cut the rounds down from 15 to 12. The Mancini-Kim fight was for the WBA lightweight title. But the fight woke up the WBC first, followed by the WBA, then eventually the IBF done away with 15 rounders. The last 15 rounder was between a Thailander and a fighter from Japan for the IBF jnr Flyweight title, August, 1988. Can't mind their names.

The championship rounds being shortned to two mins a round was considered, as was a longer rest period between rounds.

[birddog]

Yes, but it was the WBC who first cut the rounds down from 15 to 12. The Mancini-Kim fight was for the WBA lightweight title. But the fight woke up the WBC first, followed by the WBA, then eventually the IBF done away with 15 rounders. The last 15 rounder was between a Thailander and a fighter from Japan for the IBF jnr Flyweight title, August, 1988. Can't mind their names.

The championship rounds being shortned to two mins a round was considered, as was a longer rest period between rounds.
Thanks Robbi, I remember the manicini fight as one of, if not the motivator. Didn't remember / realize it was the wbc that moved first, do you which ouf the wbc tittles fist went to 12, curious.

Must be getting old here , hehe

[Robbi]

Thanks Robbi, I remember the manicini fight as one of, if not the motivator. Didn't remember / realize it was the wbc that moved first, do you which ouf the wbc tittles fist went to 12, curious.

Must be getting old here , hehe

I have no idea what was the first WBC title fight to switch from 15 rounds to 12 rounds. But Holmes' WBC title fight against Rodriquez was a 12 rounder and that was March, 1983. The Mancini-Kim fight was November, 1982, thus the WBC acted very swiftly to shorten the rounds.