My top 7 heavyweights (from Dempsey on)

[Sonny's jab]

1 Joe Louis
2 Muhammad Ali
3 Larry Holmes
4 George Foreman
5 Joe Frazier
6 Rocky Marciano
7 Jack Dempsey

(I dont bother trying to rate Jack Johnson and all those real old-timers, for various reasons, so I start with Dempsey)

This top 7 isn't set in stone but I'm reasonably happy with it. Which three heavyweights most deserve to make up the top 10 ?

My leading candidates are probably : Holyfield, Liston, Lewis, Tyson, Walcott, Charles, Schmeling.
And I can think of a few others who arguably deserve in.

[SuzieQ49]

I like the list, few minor disagreements but you got the major names on their! i like the inclusion of walcott,charles, schmeling rounding out in your top 15. i do think liston should def be in ur top 7

[Sonny's jab]

I like the list, few minor disagreements but you got the major names on their! i like the inclusion of walcott,charles, schmeling rounding out in your top 15. i do think liston should def be in ur top 7

Thanks.
I like Liston and feel his resume is often underrated, and I reckon he'd beat some of the men in my top 7, BUT I'm trying to really stick heavily away from factoring in too much head-to-head judgment (where he might well score well).
His stint at the top was brief and I DO penalize him for the manner in which he lost to Clay.

[yancey]

1 Joe Louis
2 Muhammad Ali
3 Larry Holmes
4 George Foreman
5 Joe Frazier
6 Rocky Marciano
7 Jack Dempsey

(I dont bother trying to rate Jack Johnson and all those real old-timers, for various reasons, so I start with Dempsey)

This top 7 isn't set in stone but I'm reasonably happy with it. Which three heavyweights most deserve to make up the top 10 ?

My leading candidates are probably : Holyfield, Liston, Lewis, Tyson, Walcott, Charles, Schmeling.
And I can think of a few others who arguably deserve in.

Liston, Lewis, Tyson. Good list, btw.

Sonny,

Not to hijack your thread, but do you believe prime Foreman always beats prime Frazier no matter what, even if the pushing is stopped?

Personally, I can see a decent possibility of Frazier surviving the early rounds and taking Foreman fairly late.

[Sonny's jab]

Liston, Lewis, Tyson. Good list, btw.

Sonny,

Not to hijack your thread, but do you believe prime Foreman always beats prime Frazier no matter what, even if the pushing is stopped?

Personally, I can see a decent possibility of Frazier surviving the early rounds and taking Foreman fairly late.
I think a prime Frazier has a good chance of beating anyone, including Foreman.

[Sonny's jab]

Personally I wouldn't include Lewis and Tyson in my top 10 and leave out Holyfield.
I thought about having Holyfield in my top 7. I think his accomplishments are underrated.

[sugarkills]

Rocky Marciano should be #1. He was the besterest of all-time in the history of eternity.

[Russell]

Good list, SJ.

I've never understood some peoples extremely high ratings of Liston and you seem to agree.

I feel the number 3-5 spots are all interchangeable. As in Frazier could be ahead of Foreman, Foreman could be ahead of Holmes, and so on.

But the top two are of course locks.

[Sonny's jab]

Rocky Marciano should be #1. He was the besterest of all-time in the history of eternity.

You know, I was just thinking that before I read your post !
I messed up by putting him at #6.
But I figured he didn't beat the best opposition. But then neither did Louis, or Holmes (Ali arguably did!). But Rocky NEVER LOST, never came in to a fight fat, lazy or clowning, never got knocked out. He beat everyone up and knocked most of 'em out. Yeah, I should have him at #1 !
:good

[Sonny's jab]

Good list, SJ.

I've never understood some peoples extremely high ratings of Liston and you seem to agree.

I feel the number 3-5 spots are all interchangeable. As in Frazier could be ahead of Foreman, Foreman could be ahead of Holmes, and so on.

But the top two are of course locks.

Liston could have cemented his greatness by at least putting up a decent fight against Clay/Ali.
For whatever reason he failed to do so on two seperate chances, and went out in those big fights quite pathetically. It's that simple, IMO.

[Russell]

Yup, others on your list either beat or troubled your number 2 heavyweight, Frazier doing so in the most important of the Frazier/Ali trilogy.

Points for that.

[Dempsey1238]

I dont mind Liston loseing to Ali, its more in the matter how he went out, Had Liston been out box for 15 rounds for Ali in the first fight. Ok, but quiting leaves something in regards to heart.
The rematch is of couse worse.

[yancey]

Rocky Marciano should be #1. He was the besterest of all-time in the history of eternity.

Well, I guess that settles it.

I mean, you certainly come across as objective. ;)

[Sonny's jab]

I dont mind Liston loseing to Ali, its more in the matter how he went out, Had Liston been out box for 15 rounds for Ali in the first fight. Ok, but quiting leaves something in regards to heart.
The rematch is of couse worse.
Yeah, that's my take as well.

[mcvey]

1 Joe Louis
2 Muhammad Ali
3 Larry Holmes
4 George Foreman
5 Joe Frazier
6 Rocky Marciano
7 Jack Dempsey

(I dont bother trying to rate Jack Johnson and all those real old-timers, for various reasons, so I start with Dempsey)

This top 7 isn't set in stone but I'm reasonably happy with it. Which three heavyweights most deserve to make up the top 10 ?

My leading candidates are probably : Holyfield, Liston, Lewis, Tyson, Walcott, Charles, Schmeling.
And I can think of a few others who arguably deserve in.
Ali
Dempsey
Louis
Holmes
Liston
Foreman
Lewis
Marciano
Frazier

[Russell]

Yeah, not a chance in hell Frazier belongs below Liston.

[abraq]

My list:

Ali
Louis
Holmes
Foreman
Tyson
Lewis
Liston
Frazier
Dempsey
Marciano / HolyfieldGuys like Charles, Walcott, Bowe could just as easily get into the lower rungs. my reason for picking Holyfield over Bowe is total achievment. Maybe Tyson, Liston and Lewis could interchange positions too.

[Russell]

Frazier and foreman way to high.

You can only have one 70's heavyweight in the top 10, and that's ali.

And the guy who beat said fighter in the biggest fight of eithers career?

[McGrain]

Nice list SJ.

Round it off with Tyson, Lewis and Liston.

Keep Walcott out of the ten :twisted:

[Addie]

[quote=Sonny's jab]1 Muhammad Ali
2 Joe Louis
3 Larry Holmes
4 George Foreman
5 Joe Frazier
6 Rocky Marciano
7 Jack Dempsey

[mightyd40]

1 Joe Louis
2 Muhammad Ali
3 Larry Holmes
4 George Foreman
5 Joe Frazier
6 Rocky Marciano
7 Jack Dempsey

(I dont bother trying to rate Jack Johnson and all those real old-timers, for various reasons, so I start with Dempsey)

This top 7 isn't set in stone but I'm reasonably happy with it. Which three heavyweights most deserve to make up the top 10 ?

My leading candidates are probably : Holyfield, Liston, Lewis, Tyson, Walcott, Charles, Schmeling.
And I can think of a few others who arguably deserve in.
though my list would be a little different i dont see any problems here but was wondering how your h2h top 7 would look from dempsey on?

[Russell]

I'd personally put Dempsey a spot or two above Marciano.

30 something more fights, and I give him massive credit for three wins over Miske.

[Dempsey1238]

I'd personally put Dempsey a spot or two above Marciano.

30 something more fights, and I give him massive credit for three wins over Miske.

And sitting on the title for nearly 5 years with out defended against the number 1 contender.
Miske was sick in his fight with Dempsey for the title though.

[Maxmomer]

Man, Jack Dempsey would beat the hell out of Paulie Malignaggi...

[Russell]

And sitting on the title for nearly 5 years with out defended against the number 1 contender.
Miske was sick in his fight with Dempsey for the title though.

Didn't seem to impact his performance, honestly. He probably did better in that fight than he did in the previous two.

[SuzieQ49]

Yeah, not a chance in hell Frazier belongs below Liston.

Why not? liston would crush him in under 5 rounds h2h, liston beat better punches than frazier did, and beat the better young contenders than frazier did and did so more convinsingly.

[SuzieQ49]

I'd personally put Dempsey a spot or two above Marciano.

30 something more fights, and I give him massive credit for three wins over Miske.


You mean his no decision draw that could have gone either way against a healthy miske and 1 knockout victory over a sick dying billy miske.

30 more fights, but far more losses including a 1 round knockout loss to a 38 year old weak punching journeyman, and a decision loss in his prime to a fat C level fighter.



i saw a great documentary on TV renactnment about billy miske, interview with his grandson good stuff.

[Russell]

You mean his no decision draw that could have gone either way against a healthy miske and 1 knockout victory over a sick dying billy miske.

30 more fights, but far more losses including a 1 round knockout loss to a 38 year old weak punching journeyman, and a decision loss in his prime to a fat C level fighter.



i saw a great documentary on TV renactnment about billy miske, interview with his grandson good stuff.

Do I really need to explain to you what happened with the Flynn fight, Q?

You already know the circumstances.

[Maxmomer]

Didn't seem to impact his performance, honestly. He probably did better in that fight than he did in the previous two.

While Miske was sick, I don't think it effected his performance either, as he went on to defeat solid oposition.

[Seamus]

Since everyone is clammoring to know my top 7, here's we go...

based on an irrational mix of head to head and legacy status...

Louis - dangerous in any era, power, combo's, and mostly beat the best of his era emphatically. moved like a dream, hit like a battleship.
Ali- hard to separate the man from the myth, but a very good to great hw boxer and even better tough guy who held on longer than logic would justify.
Lewis- head to head could crush any hw ever put on this earth. lapses in judgement and focus keep him from being higher and probably earn him a lower ranking.
Marciano- very high against his era, not as high head to head. a difficult guy to rank because he was only a cruiser. Gets to this position based on accomplishment WITHIN his era.
Holmes- again, i have problems with his competition but his skill set was incredible. and he DID defeat some excellent fighters in excellent fashion.
Tyson- rapid fire, exciting, dominant for a short while. it's the brightness of his flame not the duration that excites.
Dempsey- pretty much a repeat of the above with the addition that he was a revolutionary in his attack mode.

other fighters i would accept arguments for... Foreman, and on a sympathetic day Liston, and that's about it.

[SuzieQ49]

Do I really need to explain to you what happened with the Flynn fight, Q?

You already know the circumstances.

I am a big sympathizer with jack dempseys early career which was like jersey joe's and i cut him alot of slack but by 1917 dempsey was a full time fighter......he was not the kid around the block anymore. he was coming into his own by then, I am not convinced it was a dive against 38 year old flynn(though I defintley want it to be). Dempsey turned down offers from gunboat smith, sam langford, and frank moran(?) that year

[JohnThomas1]

Since everyone is clammoring to know my top 7, here's we go...

based on an irrational mix of head to head and legacy status...

Louis - dangerous in any era, power, combo's, and mostly beat the best of his era emphatically. moved like a dream, hit like a battleship.
Ali- hard to separate the man from the myth, but a very good to great hw boxer and even better tough guy who held on longer than logic would justify.
Lewis- head to head could crush any hw ever put on this earth. lapses in judgement and focus keep him from being higher and probably earn him a lower ranking.
Marciano- very high against his era, not as high head to head. a difficult guy to rank because he was only a cruiser. Gets to this position based on accomplishment WITHIN his era.
Holmes- again, i have problems with his competition but his skill set was incredible. and he DID defeat some excellent fighters in excellent fashion.
Tyson- rapid fire, exciting, dominant for a short while. it's the brightness of his flame not the duration that excites.
Dempsey- pretty much a repeat of the above with the addition that he was a revolutionary in his attack mode.

other fighters i would accept arguments for... Foreman, and on a sympathetic day Liston, and that's about it.

No Sonny Liston!!!!!

:yikes:yikes:yikes:yikes:yikes

[RoccoMarciano]

No Sonny Liston!!!!!

:yikes:yikes:yikes:yikes:yikes
He took too many dives for Ali :smoke

[Maxmomer]

I am a big sympathizer with jack dempseys early career which was like jersey joe's and i cut him alot of slack but by 1917 dempsey was a full time fighter......he was not the kid around the block anymore. he was coming into his own by then, I am not convinced it was a dive against 38 year old flynn(though I defintley want it to be). Dempsey turned down offers from gunboat smith, sam langford, and frank moran(?) that year

I really don't take into account the Flynn fight when I judge Dempsey. There are too many questions marks and the fact that an incident of that nature was never repeated lead me to believe that there were probably some major unknown factors in play. Just my two-cents

[Seamus]

No Sonny Liston!!!!!

:yikes:yikes:yikes:yikes:yikes

Yeah, hard to believe, isn't it.

Still, he's on the cusp of my top-10, usually just a little inside.

That's about the proper respect due the guy.

[JohnThomas1]

Yeah, hard to believe, isn't it.

Still, he's on the cusp of my top-10, usually just a little inside.

That's about the proper respect due the guy.

Yes, i was shocked especially given all the Classic tree's he been knocking down!

7 to 11 maybe would be fair. Trying to remember where i have him. If one factors head to head heavily it's possible to have him well in the mix - many rate him enormously H2H and it can certainly be debated, like many top 10's.

[Sonny's jab]

though my list would be a little different i dont see any problems here but was wondering how your h2h top 7 would look from dempsey on?

I cant do pure head-to-head.
Most imaginary fights I can see going different ways, so it's difficult to say who would do best against the entire field.

[Sonny's jab]

I'd personally put Dempsey a spot or two above Marciano.

30 something more fights, and I give him massive credit for three wins over Miske.

I prefer Dempsey as a fighter, I'd favour him to beat some of those above him. I think his inactivity as champion is a bad mark on him.
I dont give him the same "massive credit" for 3 wins over Miske. I read the first two weren't great fights, and one was actually a draw. Miske was perhaps recovering from sickness in the third one. Miske was good but not so good to move Dempsey up my ratings.

[Ezzard]

Ali
Louis
Johnson
Holmes
Dempsey
Foreman
Frazier
Liston
Holyfield
Lewis

Edit: Just realised that Johnson doesn't count as this is from Dempsey onwards....

Ali
Louis
Holmes
Dempsey
Foreman
Frazier
Liston
Holyfield
Lewis
Marciano

[Sonny's jab]

Did Seamus just come out about his manlove for Sonny Liston ?

You'd rate him in the top 10 ?

He gets a mention before Holyfield & Frazier ?

That's big wet sloppy manlove if I've ever witnessed it. Shocking.

Then again, your manlove for Tyson is apparent too. What is it, his tattoos ? "The Baddest Man on The Planet", imagine that !
You know Tyson had a thousand street fights before he was 13, Cus used to take him down to mafia pit-fighting clubs when he was a teenager, sometimes fights to the death, Tyson was knocking out 15 grown men a night before he turned pro. That's why he still got much love from da gangsta thugs, he was repping Brownsville even when they had him out in Catskill. Tyson was invincible back in the day.

[Bokaj]

My would be:

Ali
Louis
Holmes
Marciano
Lewis
Foreman*
Frazier

* I'm very much on the fence when it comes to Foreman. On one hand he has his destruction of Frazier and his very impressive comeback, but on the other hand he met few ranked contenders and had a bad record against the ones he met. If you merge old Foreman's intangables with young Foreman's physical assets you have a top 5, maybe even top 3, fighter, but separately none of them really gets into the top 10. Tough call.

[Sonny's jab]

Thanks foe the suggestions people. :good

I think Holyfield would round out by top ten before Tyson gets a sniff at it, and Lewis has a record as good as either but he was a bit lacking in the impression he made in his biggest fights. So Holyfield would edge just in front on my list. I have reservations about both Holy and Lewis though.

But I'm thinking Schmeling might deserve in. Though he got busted up by Baer.

All the candidates have major blemishes. Liston's quit job was pathetic, Walcott in his peak years dropped decisions to guys like Maxim and Layne - good fighters, and I dont penalize much for losing competitive decisions - but still Walcott dropped maybe a few too many.

The order of my top 7 isn't set in stone. I can see it jumbled up in lots of ways. Ut I think the 7 names are reasonably solid as of now.

[SuzieQ49]

walcotts loss to maxim was a bad decision. the new york times described the next day as "the clevelander won a very unpopular decision".

[Sonny's jab]

walcotts loss to maxim was a bad decision. the new york times described the next day as "the clevelander won a very unpopular decision".
Thanks.
But wasn't his win over Elmer Ray a bit strange too ?

[Sonny's jab]

Sorry, Q, I meant his win over JIMMY BIVINS was a bit strange, but it was possibly fair.

[SuzieQ49]

But wasn't his win over Elmer Ray a bit strange too ?

the one where walcott knocked him out in the 3rd round, or the won where walcott knocked ray down 3 times and outboxed him down the stretch?

[SuzieQ49]

Sorry, Q, I meant his win over JIMMY BIVINS was a bit strange, but it was possibly fair.


I dont know why the cards were even close.........Walcott knocked jimmy bivins down with a right hand. Walcott didnt follow up because bivins was badly hurt and walcott could have finished him off. The rest of the fighting according to newspapers walcott "won easily" it should have been a wide decision win for walcott, i dont know why the cards were that close.

[Sonny's jab]

I dont know why the cards were even close.........Walcott knocked jimmy bivins down with a right hand. Walcott didnt follow up because bivins was badly hurt and walcott could have finished him off. The rest of the fighting according to newspapers walcott "won easily" it should have been a wide decision win for walcott, i dont know why the cards were that close.
Thanks.
Sounds like he defeated Ray and Bivins quite tidily.
Walcott's certainly a good candidate for my top 10.

[mcvey]

You mean his no decision draw that could have gone either way against a healthy miske and 1 knockout victory over a sick dying billy miske.

30 more fights, but far more losses including a 1 round knockout loss to a 38 year old weak punching journeyman, and a decision loss in his prime to a fat C level fighter.



i saw a great documentary on TV renactnment about billy miske, interview with his grandson good stuff.
I think thereis a lot of hyperbole around Miske after being kod by Dempsey Boxrec has him engaging in 26 fights winning 18 with the rest no decs.Among his victims were Reanault,Gibbonsx2Meehan and Brennan in Miskes last fight this was a 4 rd ko win for Billy ,he challenged Dempsey in 1920 and fought on to 1923 losing no fights ,thats a long time to be sick and dying.

[SuzieQ49]

Thanks.
Sounds like he defeated Ray and Bivins quite tidily.
Walcott's certainly a good candidate for my top 10.

Yes, the 2nd fight Elmer Ray deserved to win, but Elmer Ray was a very good fighter. He rates in my top 25 heavyweights of all time. He was a 6'2 195lb 82" reach rare long armed SKILLED swarmer with one punch Kayo power

[SuzieQ49]

Billy Miske grandson claimed miske fought through the pain that he was extremley sick for a long time, they couldnt believe when he knocked out brennan, he had practically no strength left he wanted to take one last pay day to buy his family christmas presents

[Russell]

Funny how few top tens I see Jeffries in.

*Shrugs*

[El Matador]

Funny how few top tens I see Jeffries in.

*Shrugs* And Marvin Hart.:nut

Just kidding. Hart's title reign was shortlived. But he is one of the forgotten Heavyweight champs. Few even remember that short period between Jeffries and Tommy Burns. Hart KO'ed Root for the vacant title, and actually outpointed Johnson before Johnson became champ himself.

[Seamus]

Funny how few top tens I see Jeffries in.

*Shrugs*

These lists are Dempsey onward...

[Russell]

Yeah, I know, it just came to mind how I never see him period.

[Bokaj]

He was fighting in an era where a lot of very good fighters were excluded because of the colour of their skin. That means he didn't have to face many potentially very dangerous opponents and therefore his record doesn't tell us enough. My two cents...

[Seamus]

Yeah, I know, it just came to mind how I never see him period.

True. In 1950 he was still on a lot of lists and rather high. After that he seems only remembered from coming back against Johnson.

Also curious how Sullivan is never included despite his dominance, duration and single defeat at the very end of his career.