** Emanuel Stewart and "Kronk-izing" a boxer" [Archive]

Orishaman

07-16-2007, 03:04 PM

boxing_kid

07-16-2007, 03:10 PM

yea emaunel is a good trainer.

unitas

07-16-2007, 03:14 PM

Tettsuo

07-16-2007, 03:17 PM

You can't improve by sparring with chumps. The better your competition during sparring, the more you'll learn. :bbb

Orishaman

07-16-2007, 03:21 PM

You can't improve by sparring with chumps. The better your competition during sparring, the more you'll learn. :bbb

And keeping up with your piersa the gym....boxer's pride!!

Mike T

07-16-2007, 05:32 PM

The Kronk competition hasn't seemed to help Taylor
Not Mannys fault

Orishaman

07-16-2007, 05:36 PM

The Kronk competition hasn't seemed to help Taylor
Not Mannys fault
Taylor problems are between the ears...hard to work with that...:patsch

Taylor always has recented forcing Emanuel thru this throat ....by DiBella

digiram

07-16-2007, 05:39 PM

Taylor problems are between the ears...hard to work with that...:patsch

Taylor always has recented forcing Emanuel thru this throat ....by DiBella

Taylor seems a bit too content with the gifts that he's been receiving from the judges. I wonder if he's been blowing much? :think

conditioner101

07-16-2007, 10:19 PM

After watching Vladdy's last 2 fights and Kermit blazing comeback, i have to say that the value of tough sparring competition, Gym competitiveness at Kronk is invaluable to the succes of the new pupils of Emanuel...sure he took two solid talents and re-invenvented them to minimize their flaws, and enhancing their assest...what I like to call "Kronk-izing".

At this point on his career, I see a lot of Tommy Hearns physicaly and stylsiticly on Kermit, he is looking more and more as the man to beat at 147....Paul Williams and Kermit would be a masterfull showdown of 2 opponents that match stylistcly for a Bomb of a fight, this would be equal to any Fight of the Year I can think of even more than Castillo v. Corales I...

I want to see this fight happen, and better soon than later....and how things are moving out, it might be done by default since they might be the 2 odd men out of the big $$ WW matches....with ODLH back in the mix for a petential mega fight against Cotto...

WHOA WHOA WHOA. I am a little sick of hearing about trainers taking and already established fighter and getting him a frew wins and all of the sudden this trainer gets credit for the success. Lets not forget that Kermit was 24-0 with 22 kos with his old team. Lets not forget that he ko-d Elio Ortiz, and Teddy Reid when both were "Ring Magazine" ranked top 10 welterweights. Lets not forget that Kermit was the first man to EVER knock Reid off his feet. Look at the connect percentages of Kermits opponents pre manny steward. He rarely got hit. Look at the connect percentages now... it has nearly doubled. Go look at the Reid fight and then look at any of Kermits fights since being with Manny. Kermits skills have regressed. His hand speed is not as good. Kermit lost to Margarito because he is a basket case mentally, and once personal problems creep back into his life he will suffer another implosion the same way he did against Margarito.
As for the "tough sparring?" Who Andy Lee? Kermit boxed a tall southpaw middleweight to prepare for a short orthodox welterweight? Sounds pretty stupid to me. Now I will give you the role call for who Kemit sparred under his old teams tutelage. When he was 4-0 he went into camp to spar Gatti as gatti prepared for Oscar. After that the list reads like this. Andrew Lewis (when he was champ and undefeated) Kassim Ouma (whom he dropped with single left hook) Bernard Hopkins (24 rounds total) Yusef Mack, Aslanbek Kodzoev (undefeated jr middle/middleweight at that time) Jimmy Lange, Aaron Mitchell, Steve Little, Bobby Heath, Naji Turpin,Tarvis Simms, Ian MacKillop, and Dennis Sharp.
Kermits old team took a 19 year old kid who had never boxed a day in his life and ran him to 24-0 with 22 kos, and did so in 5 years. That to me is what making a fighter is. To start from scratch. That is how it is done.

Vantage_West

07-16-2007, 10:33 PM

well kronkizing???yea i like it it totally dig that some guys with limited or low skill level gave them the abilty abilty to make people able to box but in an exiting fighters style.
Gereld mcClellen was a puncher but had no jab or right cross,Tommy Hearns veryko punch in the amateurs only 14 i think? anyways he gave him tools that gave so many men trouble,michael moorer had alot of talent and abilty but was too timid and shy and not a typical fighter architect but manny changed it round and made him quick sharp powerful ect ect.
three cases where 3 kronk gym guys changed up there style to help them all different cases as well

jrios

07-16-2007, 11:00 PM

WHOA WHOA WHOA. I am a little sick of hearing about trainers taking and already established fighter and getting him a frew wins and all of the sudden this trainer gets credit for the success. Lets not forget that Kermit was 24-0 with 22 kos with his old team. Lets not forget that he ko-d Elio Ortiz, and Teddy Reid when both were "Ring Magazine" ranked top 10 welterweights. Lets not forget that Kermit was the first man to EVER knock Reid off his feet. Look at the connect percentages of Kermits opponents pre manny steward. He rarely got hit. Look at the connect percentages now... it has nearly doubled. Go look at the Reid fight and then look at any of Kermits fights since being with Manny. Kermits skills have regressed. His hand speed is not as good. Kermit lost to Margarito because he is a basket case mentally, and once personal problems creep back into his life he will suffer another implosion the same way he did against Margarito.
As for the "tough sparring?" Who Andy Lee? Kermit boxed a tall southpaw middleweight to prepare for a short orthodox welterweight? Sounds pretty stupid to me. Now I will give you the role call for who Kemit sparred under his old teams tutelage. When he was 4-0 he went into camp to spar Gatti as gatti prepared for Oscar. After that the list reads like this. Andrew Lewis (when he was champ and undefeated) Kassim Ouma (whom he dropped with single left hook) Bernard Hopkins (24 rounds total) Yusef Mack, Aslanbek Kodzoev (undefeated jr middle/middleweight at that time) Jimmy Lange, Aaron Mitchell, Steve Little, Bobby Heath, Naji Turpin,Tarvis Simms, Ian MacKillop, and Dennis Sharp.
Kermits old team took a 19 year old kid who had never boxed a day in his life and ran him to 24-0 with 22 kos, and did so in 5 years. That to me is what making a fighter is. To start from scratch. That is how it is done.

You have to give both teams credit...his old team gets the credit for taking a fighter with no ameteur back ground and getting him as far as Margo...but then you have to give Manny Steward his credit because he took over and got him as far as a title holder (IBF)...this kid was down after his forst loss and Manny helped him get back up and win a title...Walter Mathysse was also a good opponent, one that gave Paul Williams his toughest fight and that statement came from Paul Williams himself

conditioner101

07-17-2007, 01:59 AM

You have to give both teams credit...his old team gets the credit for taking a fighter with no ameteur back ground and getting him as far as Margo...but then you have to give Manny Steward his credit because he took over and got him as far as a title holder (IBF)...this kid was down after his forst loss and Manny helped him get back up and win a title...Walter Mathysse was also a good opponent, one that gave Paul Williams his toughest fight and that statement came from Paul Williams himself
Thats the same thing everyone said about Mcgirt and Gatti teaming up. All that was was good matchmaking. Terron Millet was already shot. Who did Gatti beat of note while under the tutelage of Mcgirt. Not to mention he has probably the worst record of any trainer right now.
As for Manny. David Estrada, Mark Suarez, and Mathysse? Cintron was close to losing against Estrada. He was obviously hurt several times. Who the heck is Suarez anyway, and who of note did Marthysse ever beat.
And, what about the "great" Jermaine Taylor? He left the team that made him and went to Manny Steward and has obviously been regressing ever since. He lost to Winky in my opinion. Granted Winky is exceptional, but still a Jr middle. Spinks beat him in my opinion and Spinks started at 140 and was ko'd by Zab and dropped how many times by Mayorga? Kassim Ouma (another jr middle) pushed him to the limit. Taylor had a stelar amateur career, was an Olympian, and was on a role under Pat Burns. Am I wrong? What has "MANNY THE GREAT" done with him.
Is Manny a bad trainer? Of course not, but he does not deserve the credit that is being heaped on him for Cintron. Marshall Kauffman and Joe Pastore made Cintron.
How can you not commend to guys that took a 19 yr old wrestler thaqt never boxed, and got him to 24-0 with 22 kos in under 5 years both amateur and pro career combined. He was ko'ing guys that were never knocked out. Dropping guys that were never dropped. Scarcely lost a round. Come on guys. Give credit where credit is due. Those guys deserve real recognition for what they did with Cintron. You could write a text book on how he was trained and brought along through his career. Like I said earlier. Go rewatch Cintron vs Ortiiz and Cintron vs Reid. Those fights were a thing of beauty. Cintron boxed flawlessly against Ortiz (Ring Magazine Top 10 at the time), and scored a more brutal ko against Ortiz than he did Mathysse. As for Reid... this is the Reid that was undefeated in all fights at 147 but one. Decision loss to Andrew Lewis. He was just as big, strong, and hard punching as Cintron. He had everything it took to push Kermit hard. Harder than anyone has to this point, and yet Kermit dominated him. Didn't lose one round, scored two knockdowns, and held Reid to an abismal connect %. Look at Cintron punch variety, his jab, his defense, his ring generalship(the constant movement to his right to avoid reids right hand) his amazing physique and condition, and what was at that time a granite chin. Those two fights are what made me a believer in Cintron.

jisi

07-17-2007, 02:25 AM

Emanuel Steward is a great trainer. If boxers want to learn, he could teach them, like Wladimir Klitschko and Kermit Cintron.

1lehudson

07-17-2007, 02:28 AM

rayrayv123

07-17-2007, 03:10 AM

Kronk use to produce fighters, now it seems that Manny is only interested in training fighters that are already champions, or just about ready to fight for a title. Who was the last fighter to actaully start at Kronk and win a world title. there is a good trivia question.

PS....I dont know the answer.

Not too sure on who the last was but you have two very strong possibilities in Johnathon Banks (cruiserweight) and Andy Lee (middleweight).

P.S. Obviously Lee fought as an amatuer in Ireland but didn't turn pro until he came to Detroit to train with Manny.

errsta

07-17-2007, 03:26 AM

Kermit is an excellent athlete and I'm happy to see the progress he's making with Steward. He is developing the way I expected Jermain Taylor to.

Cintron is obviously a good student and I hope he continues to progress.

jazzboy

07-17-2007, 04:15 AM

i hate emanuelle steward taylor should drop him

Orishaman

07-17-2007, 08:46 PM

WHOA WHOA WHOA. I am a little sick of hearing about trainers taking and already established fighter and getting him a frew wins and all of the sudden this trainer gets credit for the success. Lets not forget that Kermit was 24-0 with 22 kos with his old team. Lets not forget that he ko-d Elio Ortiz, and Teddy Reid when both were "Ring Magazine" ranked top 10 welterweights. Lets not forget that Kermit was the first man to EVER knock Reid off his feet. Look at the connect percentages of Kermits opponents pre manny steward. He rarely got hit. Look at the connect percentages now... it has nearly doubled. Go look at the Reid fight and then look at any of Kermits fights since being with Manny. Kermits skills have regressed. His hand speed is not as good. Kermit lost to Margarito because he is a basket case mentally, and once personal problems creep back into his life he will suffer another implosion the same way he did against Margarito.
As for the "tough sparring?" Who Andy Lee? Kermit boxed a tall southpaw middleweight to prepare for a short orthodox welterweight? Sounds pretty stupid to me. Now I will give you the role call for who Kemit sparred under his old teams tutelage. When he was 4-0 he went into camp to spar Gatti as gatti prepared for Oscar. After that the list reads like this. Andrew Lewis (when he was champ and undefeated) Kassim Ouma (whom he dropped with single left hook) Bernard Hopkins (24 rounds total) Yusef Mack, Aslanbek Kodzoev (undefeated jr middle/middleweight at that time) Jimmy Lange, Aaron Mitchell, Steve Little, Bobby Heath, Naji Turpin,Tarvis Simms, Ian MacKillop, and Dennis Sharp.
Kermits old team took a 19 year old kid who had never boxed a day in his life and ran him to 24-0 with 22 kos, and did so in 5 years. That to me is what making a fighter is. To start from scratch. That is how it is done.

As a trainer I agree with you to a point, but I also understand my limitiation when hadling talent and how far I can take them, at one point or another, it is in the benefits of the boxers, the guy that you trained from scrath to let him go to the next level, and you can't ...so waht you do you give the keys to the Ferrari to Mario Andretti to so you know he cantake it to the finish line first...and watching the next trainer taking him to the next level is satisfying enough since you know that you had a huge part on his achievement, you laid the solid foundation to built on...

Vantage_West

07-17-2007, 09:06 PM

Not too sure on who the last was but you have two very strong possibilities in Johnathon Banks (cruiserweight) and Andy Lee (middleweight).

P.S. Obviously Lee fought as an amatuer in Ireland but didn't turn pro until he came to Detroit to train with Manny.lee was born in london :roll: sorry if he becomes a champion then he is a british fighter...yea us brits are sad when it comes to champions and british identitiy

iceman

07-17-2007, 09:58 PM

lee was born in london :roll: sorry if he becomes a champion then he is a british fighter...yea us brits are sad when it comes to champions and british identitiy

Sad indeed - Lee is Irish but you can have Mc Guigan the turncoat

conditioner101

07-17-2007, 10:33 PM

As a trainer I agree with you to a point, but I also understand my limitiation when hadling talent and how far I can take them, at one point or another, it is in the benefits of the boxers, the guy that you trained from scrath to let him go to the next level, and you can't ...so waht you do you give the keys to the Ferrari to Mario Andretti to so you know he cantake it to the finish line first...and watching the next trainer taking him to the next level is satisfying enough since you know that you had a huge part on his achievement, you laid the solid foundation to built on...

I am not here to make this personal with you. Just to voice my opinion. Your reply didn't address any of the points I made. Not to mention the points I made were facts, not opinion. The Mathysse fight was a good win, but who did Cintron actually beat there? Mathysse doesn't have one recognizeble name on his record outside of Williams, and Williams beat him from pillar to post.
If you look at the records of Teddy Reid and Elio Ortiz you see many many recognizable names, and a world champion or two on there records. On Reids resume you have Terrance Cauthen, Golden Johnson, Joe Hutchinson, Ben Tackie, Andrew Lewis, Rodney Jones, and Verno Phillips. All much more accomplished that the nobodies on Mathysses resume. Elio Ortiz has faced Omar Weiss, Sharmba Mitchell, Ricardo Mayorga, Michelle Piccirillo, Ray Oliveira, and Joachim Alcine. Also all more accomplished than anyone on Mathysses resume. Kermit scarecly lost a round when he was fighting with his old team, and when he faced his first two top ten opponents (Reid n Ortiz) he didn't lose a single round, and produced highlite reel KO's. Can the same be said since He got together with Steward? Estrada came close to dropping him several times, and that was also the first time I saw him genuinely hurt. (don't even include the quit job he pulled against Margarito) His fight with Estrada was very close till the end. Suarez had his moments with Cintron as well.
Physically he is not nearly as imposing as he once was. He weighed 146 for his fight with Mathysse, and entered the ring at only 152. With his old team he routinely entered the ring at 160+. Looking strong and ready for war. I watch his old tapes and no longer see the same handspeed or one punch power.
As for Kauffman... are you saying he is limited as a trainer? Hmmm takes 19 year old kid who never boxed and runs him to 24-0 22 kos in under 5 years both amateur and pro career combined. Son Travis was the US #1 amateur super-heavyweight for two years. He won two national title and placed top three in every national tournament he entered. What I see is a trainer that can take a beginner and turn him into a wolrd class boxer. Doesn't sound to limited to me.

1lehudson

07-17-2007, 10:55 PM

thats how the game is played my friend....do you think manny has time to train some little punk that may not even have the goods to make it .....to go to every SINGLE one of his fights? thats not how the process works. you get paid more, you get a better trainer. unless you and your trainer are really close (eg. father/son).

and who the fuck is manny supposed to be some god....?

, manny wants to get paid too and with the big fighters theres BIG money. while some punk is trainin wannabee's in the local gym manny is making millions off supreme fighters.dude I have been around boxing and gyms since i was 5 years old, that is almost 30 years. I dont need some young buck telling me how it works. Truth is KRONK is a gym its not Manny Steward, and with that being said Manny not training someone from 15 to a world title isnt the point, the point is KRONK gym hasnt produced a world champion in a long time. Manny isnt the only trainer in that gym, if he is/was then his fighters arent gettin trained with all the TV dates, and fights that he does, no wonder they have not produced a champ. No there are many trainers there I would guess, it just not kicking out the champs the way that it use to.

tays001

07-18-2007, 12:33 AM

i can't lie cintron did kinda emind me of hearns with the yellow trunks and the bounce in his steps not saying he 's the next one but he did shadow him a lili saturday night. wlad is doing great with steward and JT is a bum.

Motor City Sam

07-18-2007, 12:40 AM

Kronk use to produce fighters, now it seems that Manny is only interested in training fighters that are already champions, or just about ready to fight for a title. Who was the last fighter to actaully start at Kronk and win a world title. there is a good trivia question.

PS....I dont know the answer.

That's a good question. I live in Detroit and I can't think of the last one myself. There have been a few hyped prospects in recent years (Octavio Lara, Tarik Salmaci) but neither of them panned out. Manny has been making his name by taking over guys who were already title holders and being credited with "taking them to the next level" for a while now.

Motor City Sam

07-18-2007, 12:42 AM

Not too sure on who the last was but you have two very strong possibilities in Johnathon Banks (cruiserweight) and Andy Lee (middleweight).

P.S. Obviously Lee fought as an amatuer in Ireland but didn't turn pro until he came to Detroit to train with Manny.

Good call, RayRay. It would be nice to see both Banks and Lee reach the championship level. Lee has looked really good so far and Banks has shown promise.

rayrayv123

07-18-2007, 01:14 AM

lee was born in london :roll: sorry if he becomes a champion then he is a british fighter...yea us brits are sad when it comes to champions and british identitiy

I said he fought in Ireland...I didn'y say he was born there.

rayrayv123

07-18-2007, 01:15 AM

Good call, RayRay. It would be nice to see both Banks and Lee reach the championship level. Lee has looked really good so far and Banks has shown promise.

I know I'm biased based on living here...but I know we're both pulling for the hometown guys.How badass would it be if down the road we get title fights at the Palace?!!!

Motor City Sam

07-18-2007, 08:16 AM

I know I'm biased based on living here...but I know we're both pulling for the hometown guys.How badass would it be if down the road we get title fights at the Palace?!!!

The Palace, Joe Louis Arena, Cobo Arena, anyplace in the area would be good with me. I had hoped that the arrival of casinos in Detroit would lead to bigger boxing shows in town, but it hasn't worked out that way.

If Lee and/or Banks really take off, maybe Manny can use some of his pull to get them some big fights here.

Orishaman

07-18-2007, 10:47 AM

I am not here to make this personal with you. Just to voice my opinion. Your reply didn't address any of the points I made. Not to mention the points I made were facts, not opinion. The Mathysse fight was a good win, but who did Cintron actually beat there? Mathysse doesn't have one recognizeble name on his record outside of Williams, and Williams beat him from pillar to post.
If you look at the records of Teddy Reid and Elio Ortiz you see many many recognizable names, and a world champion or two on there records. On Reids resume you have Terrance Cauthen, Golden Johnson, Joe Hutchinson, Ben Tackie, Andrew Lewis, Rodney Jones, and Verno Phillips. All much more accomplished that the nobodies on Mathysses resume. Elio Ortiz has faced Omar Weiss, Sharmba Mitchell, Ricardo Mayorga, Michelle Piccirillo, Ray Oliveira, and Joachim Alcine. Also all more accomplished than anyone on Mathysses resume. Kermit scarecly lost a round when he was fighting with his old team, and when he faced his first two top ten opponents (Reid n Ortiz) he didn't lose a single round, and produced highlite reel KO's. Can the same be said since He got together with Steward? Estrada came close to dropping him several times, and that was also the first time I saw him genuinely hurt. (don't even include the quit job he pulled against Margarito) His fight with Estrada was very close till the end. Suarez had his moments with Cintron as well.
Physically he is not nearly as imposing as he once was. He weighed 146 for his fight with Mathysse, and entered the ring at only 152. With his old team he routinely entered the ring at 160+. Looking strong and ready for war. I watch his old tapes and no longer see the same handspeed or one punch power.
As for Kauffman... are you saying he is limited as a trainer? Hmmm takes 19 year old kid who never boxed and runs him to 24-0 22 kos in under 5 years both amateur and pro career combined. Son Travis was the US #1 amateur super-heavyweight for two years. He won two national title and placed top three in every national tournament he entered. What I see is a trainer that can take a beginner and turn him into a wolrd class boxer. Doesn't sound to limited to me.

You don't have to revisit Kermit Cintron's resume for me, I been following his career since the beginning , so anything that you may want to say about him, I already know…Sure they did a greet job with a guy that was a College level Wrestler, with mayor strength, mobility and understanding of contact sports and very competitive, slimmed him down to a good boxing weight, showing very good technical knowledge on how maximize the assets of a potential boxer to be….Kermit was not a chump that walk in from the street, he was a basified wrestler and athlete…..Now no doubt that Kauffman had great credential in the amateurs and very good resume, but that is Amateur and sure his team did a great job with Kermit, plus the period after the Margo fight and after we don’t know what was happening between Kermit and his people…in all honesty…I don’t know the details on how and why Emanuel was brought in, but obviously the manager of Kermit taught he needed to be settle and move forward after the Margo debacle, and one thing that Emanuel brings to the table is immediate credibility as a proven PROFESSIONAL trainer….Kauffman did as good a he could as I mention , and after the Margo lost…well Kermit was damage goods, and I don’t know if Kauffman had the ability to pick him up, infuse confidence and move forward….regardless how good Kauffman was as a basified Amateur trainer and professional trainer for Kermit, he is no Emanuel Stewart, I am talking about the aura of Stewart and Kronk, which start healing the psychic of any boxer…and that was the first order of work to be done with Kermit after the Margo fight…his psychic…..and as a trainer, I am telling you can deal with the technical issues and skills but what Kermit needed was confidence, rebuilding a boxer from the ground up after a catastrophic defeat like the Margo one, is not easy...

rayrayv123

07-18-2007, 11:40 AM

The Palace, Joe Louis Arena, Cobo Arena, anyplace in the area would be good with me. I had hoped that the arrival of casinos in Detroit would lead to bigger boxing shows in town, but it hasn't worked out that way.

If Lee and/or Banks really take off, maybe Manny can use some of his pull to get them some big fights here.

You and I could only hope sir.

conditioner101

07-18-2007, 12:09 PM

You don't have to revisit Kermit Cintron's resume for me, I been following his career since the beginning , so anything that you may want to say about him, I already know…Sure they did a greet job with a guy that was a College level Wrestler, with mayor strength, mobility and understanding of contact sports and very competitive, slimmed him down to a good boxing weight, showing very good technical knowledge on how maximize the assets of a potential boxer to be….Kermit was not a chump that walk in from the street, he was a basified wrestler and athlete…..Now no doubt that Kauffman had great credential in the amateurs and very good resume, but that is Amateur and sure his team did a great job with Kermit, plus the period after the Margo fight and after we don’t know what was happening between Kermit and his people…in all honesty…I don’t know the details on how and why Emanuel was brought in, but obviously the manager of Kermit taught he needed to be settle and move forward after the Margo debacle, and one thing that Emanuel brings to the table is immediate credibility as a proven PROFESSIONAL trainer….Kauffman did as good a he could as I mention , and after the Margo lost…well Kermit was damage goods, and I don’t know if Kauffman had the ability to pick him up, infuse confidence and move forward….regardless how good Kauffman was as a basified Amateur trainer and professional trainer for Kermit, he is no Emanuel Stewart, I am talking about the aura of Stewart and Kronk, which start healing the psychic of any boxer…and that was the first order of work to be done with Kermit after the Margo fight…his psychic…..and as a trainer, I am telling you can deal with the technical issues and skills but what Kermit needed was confidence, rebuilding a boxer from the ground up after a catastrophic defeat like the Margo one, is not easy...

So what you are saying is that Kauffman was successful with Cintron because Cintron was a good high school wrestler? If thats the case boxing trainers would be scouting high school wrestling teams for talent. Everything you say minimizes Kauffmans accomplishments. So far Steward is 3-0 with Kermit against unranked fighters. Big deal. Taking and already world class boxer and getting him a few wins over over unranked opponents is nothing to brag about.

He is no Emanuel Steward? SO WHAT! I don't deny that Steward is a knowledgeable trainer, but to minimize what Kauffman did is rediculous. By your logic Jermaine Talylor should be invincible now that the BOXING GOD known as Manny Steward is his trainer. LOL Taylor struggles with Jr welters, Welters, and Jr, Middleweights now.
Fact of the matter is Kauffman is every bit the trainer Steward is or better, and Kermit was a kid with great potential. Together they did something very special. Kermit is what he is because of the years of work and dedication that Kauffman and Pastore put into him. Cintron has one person and one person only to blame for the loss against Margarito. HIMSELF. Kermit is the one that chose to show up late on a daily basis for his workouts. Kermit is the one who decided to start listening to his girlfriends instructions on how he should prepare for the fight. Kermit is the one that decded to stop doing all the things in training that got him to where he is. Kermit is the one that quit sparring sessions the moment they became difficult. Kermit is the one that decided he didn't wanna train hard.
There is alot I know about Kermit that you do not. I know because I train out of the same gym, and I was in many of Kermits camps. What I am saying is facts. You know what you read on the internet. The experiences I am talking about are experiences I lived.

offthahook

07-18-2007, 12:34 PM

It works with everyone but horrible JT.

Orishaman

07-18-2007, 01:02 PM

So what you are saying is that Kauffman was successful with Cintron because Cintron was a good high school wrestler? If thats the case boxing trainers would be scouting high school wrestling teams for talent. Everything you say minimizes Kauffmans accomplishments. So far Steward is 3-0 with Kermit against unranked fighters. Big deal. Taking and already world class boxer and getting him a few wins over over unranked opponents is nothing to brag about.

He is no Emanuel Steward? SO WHAT! I don't deny that Steward is a knowledgeable trainer, but to minimize what Kauffman did is rediculous. By your logic Jermaine Talylor should be invincible now that the BOXING GOD known as Manny Steward is his trainer. LOL Taylor struggles with Jr welters, Welters, and Jr, Middleweights now.
Fact of the matter is Kauffman is every bit the trainer Steward is or better, and Kermit was a kid with great potential. Together they did something very special. Kermit is what he is because of the years of work and dedication that Kauffman and Pastore put into him. Cintron has one person and one person only to blame for the loss against Margarito. HIMSELF. Kermit is the one that chose to show up late on a daily basis for his workouts. Kermit is the one who decided to start listening to his girlfriends instructions on how he should prepare for the fight. Kermit is the one that decded to stop doing all the things in training that got him to where he is. Kermit is the one that quit sparring sessions the moment they became difficult. Kermit is the one that decided he didn't wanna train hard.
There is alot I know about Kermit that you do not. I know because I train out of the same gym, and I was in many of Kermits camps. What I am saying is facts. You know what you read on the internet. The experiences I am talking about are experiences I lived.

I am not minimizing anything, I could easily say that you are overhyping Kauffman...

All I am saying is this, plain and simple, someone made the desicion and Kermiot was Ok with it....Kauffman did wonders with Kermit, but it it time to move to the next level...that all.....if he beat Margo in the near future and potentially hold 2 parts of the WW belts at one point, I am sure that he will fill that Emanuel did his job....as you know,the percention of the boxers to his trainer is critical, if he perceives that he is improving and becoming a better boxer, even if he isn;t, then he is doing his job....and you know that...

conditioner101

07-18-2007, 01:13 PM

I am not minimizing anything, I could easily say that you are overhyping Kauffman...

All I am saying is this, plain and simple, someone made the desicion and Kermiot was Ok with it....Kauffman did wonders with Kermit, but it it time to move to the next level...that all.....if he beat Margo in the near future and potentially hold 2 parts of the WW belts at one point, I am sure that he will fill that Emanuel did his job....as you know,the percention of the boxers to his trainer is critical, if he perceives that he is improving and becoming a better boxer, even if he isn;t, then he is doing his job....and you know that...
I'm not hyping Marshall, what I am saying is purely factual. And once again you ignore basically everything I stated. It seems logical to me that a trainer that takes a guy that never boxed a day in his life and trains that guy from amateur to 24-0 22 ko's I think its safe to say that that trainer is exceptional. If a trainer takes a kid from never having boxed all the way to mutliple national and international amateur titles and #1 in the country I think its safe to say that trainer is is exceptional.
GO BACK AND REWATCH CINTRON VS ORTIZ & CINTRON VS REID. I think you will see some of the things I mean.

Orishaman

07-18-2007, 02:47 PM

I'm not hyping Marshall, what I am saying is purely factual. And once again you ignore basically everything I stated. It seems logical to me that a trainer that takes a guy that never boxed a day in his life and trains that guy from amateur to 24-0 22 ko's I think its safe to say that that trainer is exceptional. If a trainer takes a kid from never having boxed all the way to mutliple national and international amateur titles and #1 in the country I think its safe to say that trainer is is exceptional.
GO BACK AND REWATCH CINTRON VS ORTIZ & CINTRON VS REID. I think you will see some of the things I mean.

I own most of Kermit fights, and we are in agreement that he did a great job, what you don’t want to understand is that when the decision was made, by whom ever, Kermit was very Ok with it and in fact looking at the way he has developed even further in the last 3 fights, Emanuel is doing him good, he seems far more confident…which on the Reid fight, that confidence was not as evident as when he fought Estrada or Mathysse…given the competition that Kermit face up to Reid far exceeded the resume of his last 3 fights, but Mathysse was no chump, a hard hitting opponent that gave Paul Williams all he could handle for the better part of 9 rounds to succumb at the end on punches volume accumulation…so the fact that Kermit basically dismantle this cat in less that 2 , at least in my book, it is impressive..

...and BTW..I enjoy the debating when it is with someone that is about boxing ....so keep it on...we will get somewhere soon

DaveyScan

07-18-2007, 04:41 PM

Thats the same thing everyone said about Mcgirt and Gatti teaming up. All that was was good matchmaking. Terron Millet was already shot. Who did Gatti beat of note while under the tutelage of Mcgirt. Not to mention he has probably the worst record of any trainer right now.
As for Manny. David Estrada, Mark Suarez, and Mathysse? Cintron was close to losing against Estrada. He was obviously hurt several times. Who the heck is Suarez anyway, and who of note did Marthysse ever beat.
And, what about the "great" Jermaine Taylor? He left the team that made him and went to Manny Steward and has obviously been regressing ever since. He lost to Winky in my opinion. Granted Winky is exceptional, but still a Jr middle. Spinks beat him in my opinion and Spinks started at 140 and was ko'd by Zab and dropped how many times by Mayorga? Kassim Ouma (another jr middle) pushed him to the limit. Taylor had a stelar amateur career, was an Olympian, and was on a role under Pat Burns. Am I wrong? What has "MANNY THE GREAT" done with him.
Is Manny a bad trainer? Of course not, but he does not deserve the credit that is being heaped on him for Cintron. Marshall Kauffman and Joe Pastore made Cintron.
How can you not commend to guys that took a 19 yr old wrestler thaqt never boxed, and got him to 24-0 with 22 kos in under 5 years both amateur and pro career combined. He was ko'ing guys that were never knocked out. Dropping guys that were never dropped. Scarcely lost a round. Come on guys. Give credit where credit is due. Those guys deserve real recognition for what they did with Cintron. You could write a text book on how he was trained and brought along through his career. Like I said earlier. Go rewatch Cintron vs Ortiiz and Cintron vs Reid. Those fights were a thing of beauty. Cintron boxed flawlessly against Ortiz (Ring Magazine Top 10 at the time), and scored a more brutal ko against Ortiz than he did Mathysse. As for Reid... this is the Reid that was undefeated in all fights at 147 but one. Decision loss to Andrew Lewis. He was just as big, strong, and hard punching as Cintron. He had everything it took to push Kermit hard. Harder than anyone has to this point, and yet Kermit dominated him. Didn't lose one round, scored two knockdowns, and held Reid to an abismal connect %. Look at Cintron punch variety, his jab, his defense, his ring generalship(the constant movement to his right to avoid reids right hand) his amazing physique and condition, and what was at that time a granite chin. Those two fights are what made me a believer in Cintron.

Stil sour about Cintron moving on with a new team? I understand that.. but you seem to forget that he's 24-1-0 (22 KOs) with that lost looking really bad.

And the fact that he didn't look all too good defensively against Teddy Reid who hits in slow-motion seems to have slipped your mind. He never beat a fighter as good as David Estrada with his ex-team, let alone Mark Suarez. I'll give you that Walter Mathysse was kind of a showcase fight but he did get rid of Mathysse a lot more explosively than P-Will did.

Sour grapes.. is all I read in your text man.

conditioner101

07-18-2007, 05:51 PM

Stil sour about Cintron moving on with a new team? I understand that.. but you seem to forget that he's 24-1-0 (22 KOs) with that lost looking really bad.

And the fact that he didn't look all too good defensively against Teddy Reid who hits in slow-motion seems to have slipped your mind. He never beat a fighter as good as David Estrada with his ex-team, let alone Mark Suarez. I'll give you that Walter Mathysse was kind of a showcase fight but he did get rid of Mathysse a lot more explosively than P-Will did.

Sour grapes.. is all I read in your text man.

Well my insight to Cintron is from the inside. Not based on what I saw on TV. The facts I stated are just that... FACTS! Kermit didn't look good defensively against Reid???? Check compubox. Reids connect % was below 20% which means he landed less than 1 out of every 5 punches he threw, including the last three completed rounds where Reid threw over 100 punches a round. There was one round where Reids connects were in the single digits. As for the fight with Ortiz there were 2-3 rounds where Ortizs' connected in the single digits.
As for nobody on Kermits resume was as good as Suarez or Estrada? Thats rediculous. Both Reid and Ortiz were RING MAGAZINE rated top 10 guys at the time. Look at the guys they fought as well. Much more accomplished guys on there resumes than on the resumes of Estrada and Suarez. Niether Estrada or Suarez ever craked the Rings top 10.

Orishaman

07-18-2007, 05:54 PM

Well my insight to Cintron is from the inside. Not based on what I saw on TV. The facts I stated are just that... FACTS! Kermit didn't look good defensively against Reid???? Check compubox. Reids connect % was below 20% which means he landed less than 1 out of every 5 punches he threw, including the last three completed rounds where Reid threw over 100 punches a round. There was one round where Reids connects were in the single digits. As for the fight with Ortiz there were 2-3 rounds where Ortizs' connected in the single digits.
As for nobody on Kermits resume was as good as Suarez or Estrada? Thats rediculous. Both Reid and Ortiz were RING MAGAZINE rated top 10 guys at the time. Look at the guys they fought as well. Much more accomplished guys on there resumes than on the resumes of Estrada and Suarez. Niether Estrada or Suarez ever craked the Rings top 10.

Again ...who ever made the desicion...Kermit didn;t complaint....and he took Emanuel like a fish on water...not like Jermain who is fighting Emanuel and recented DiBella changing trainers on him....actually a very good analogy of the two...

conditioner101

07-18-2007, 08:28 PM

Again ...who ever made the desicion...Kermit didn;t complaint....and he took Emanuel like a fish on water...not like Jermain who is fighting Emanuel and recented DiBella changing trainers on him....actually a very good analogy of the two...

If you are a trainer then I fail to see why you don't recognize the following. When a fighter loses they very often look to place the blame somewhere else. Its never there fault, its always someone elses fault as to why they lost. 9 out of ten times its easiest to blame the trainer. Trainers are also the easiest to remove and replace. No contracts. There were no problems in the way Kermit was trained or managed, the problems were within Kermit himself. In his lack of character. Yeah he accepted the decision of his girlfriend to leave and change trainers. It was easier to blame the team then to man up and say I trained poorly for the fight. I didn't listen to Marshall and follow the game plan. I paid more attention to my girlfriend than I did my boxing career. He simply turned his back on and blamed the people who were responsible for his success.
The same lack of character he shows in his personal life showed up in his fight with Margarito, and it will show up again. As I said before I am not saying Manny is a bad trainer, but he is getting far to much credit for Kermits success. Kauffman and Pastore made Cintron what he is. Lets see what happens when Kermit fights someone who challenges him in the manner Tedy Reid and Margarito did. He will fold. Its in his nature!

Orishaman

07-19-2007, 10:41 AM

If you are a trainer then I fail to see why you don't recognize the following. When a fighter loses they very often look to place the blame somewhere else. Its never there fault, its always someone elses fault as to why they lost. 9 out of ten times its easiest to blame the trainer. Trainers are also the easiest to remove and replace. No contracts. There were no problems in the way Kermit was trained or managed, the problems were within Kermit himself. In his lack of character. Yeah he accepted the decision of his girlfriend to leave and change trainers. It was easier to blame the team then to man up and say I trained poorly for the fight. I didn't listen to Marshall and follow the game plan. I paid more attention to my girlfriend than I did my boxing career. He simply turned his back on and blamed the people who were responsible for his success.
The same lack of character he shows in his personal life showed up in his fight with Margarito, and it will show up again. As I said before I am not saying Manny is a bad trainer, but he is getting far to much credit for Kermits success. Kauffman and Pastore made Cintron what he is. Lets see what happens when Kermit fights someone who challenges him in the manner Tedy Reid and Margarito did. He will fold. Its in his nature!

If you have that kind of inside information on Kermit, then you know far more than I ,therefore, then you had your hand on the pulse and see what happend....Regarding the Reid fight, we are both in agreement that he seemed extremelly perturbe about Reid all during the fight......we will see what happened ..you could easily be forth telling the future..again you ahve some interesting inside information that I didn't

BTW, when I train my fighter, I start from the bottom up, and the issue of responsability to themself before anyone else....

conditioner101

07-19-2007, 07:10 PM

If you have that kind of inside information on Kermit, then you know far more than I ,therefore, then you had your hand on the pulse and see what happend....Regarding the Reid fight, we are both in agreement that he seemed extremelly perturbe about Reid all during the fight......we will see what happened ..you could easily be forth telling the future..again you ahve some interesting inside information that I didn't

BTW, when I train my fighter, I start from the bottom up, and the issue of responsability to themself before anyone else....
Please don't get the wrong impression. I am not trying to be argumentative. I am not knocking Manny as a trainer. I am just tired of hearing people talk as though Manny made Kermit. Kauffman and Pastore made Kermit. They taught him everything he knows. I watched as the hours or time they invested turned into days turned into weeks turned into months turned into years. I saw the day to day progression. I watched as month after month he got better n better. I watched as sparring partner after sparring partner got dismantled or quit. I watched as Kermit began to take everything he waslearning and put it all together. I watched as each and every punch he threw became better and better.r I saw fights where he would buckles a guys legs with his jab. KO's from left hooks. KO's from right hands. KO's from uppercuts. I was at the gym where Pastore ran Kermit through his strength and conditioning drills. I was the first day he began his weight training and he could only bench 95 pounds for 5 reps, I was also there in camp for Teddy Reid when Kermit was benching 245 for 5 reps while still weighing the same he did when he began his pro career. I watched his squat climb from 135 for 5 reps to 315 for 5 reps. I watched his strength go up from weeks to week without ever gaining weight. A testament to Pastore. I went along as they drove him all over PA, NY,NJ,and VA for sparring. Pastore took care of every expense in Kermits life. All Kermit had to do was train, eat, sleep, and fight. Everything outside those things was taken care of. Kermit lived with Pastore for 3 years. EXPENSE FREE. I could go on and on.
You might wonder "how does he know all this?" Well, I will tell you. I train in the same gym. Sparred tons of rounds with Kermit. I spent alot of time listening to Kermit praise Marshall and Joe for everything they did for him. How he would be with them forever. Marshall and Kerm were like father n son, and Joe n Kerm were like brothers. The reason there relationship fell apart can be summed up in two words. MARIA ROBERTS. She came on the scene and immediately started telling Kermit he no longer needed them. That they didn't deserve there percentages. That he should fire them. This went on through the Margarito camp, and after the fight thats exactly what he did.
As for the Reid fight... let me expain it like this. While Reid is not a world class boxer, he is a world class puncher. The whole gym was nervous about that fight. We had seen tape of Teddy sparring and KO'ing 2 heavyweights with one punch. Reid is the only WW I knew of that I thought could match Kermits physical strength and punching power. Fortunately Kermit trained liek a champion for that fight. He was strong, welll conditioned, and well school by Marshall as to how to beat Teddy.

1fletch

07-19-2007, 07:58 PM

I heard a rumour through some grapevine or other that Emmanuel was talkin recently bout how it would only take Prince Naseem two months to get in fighting shape n that he is willing to help him. I also heard the Prince is in training and down past 140. Anyone got a gem of knowledge for an interested Yorkshireman?

DaveyScan

07-20-2007, 10:29 AM

Please don't get the wrong impression. I am not trying to be argumentative. I am not knocking Manny as a trainer. I am just tired of hearing people talk as though Manny made Kermit. Kauffman and Pastore made Kermit. They taught him everything he knows. I watched as the hours or time they invested turned into days turned into weeks turned into months turned into years. I saw the day to day progression. I watched as month after month he got better n better. I watched as sparring partner after sparring partner got dismantled or quit. I watched as Kermit began to take everything he waslearning and put it all together. I watched as each and every punch he threw became better and better.r I saw fights where he would buckles a guys legs with his jab. KO's from left hooks. KO's from right hands. KO's from uppercuts. I was at the gym where Pastore ran Kermit through his strength and conditioning drills. I was the first day he began his weight training and he could only bench 95 pounds for 5 reps, I was also there in camp for Teddy Reid when Kermit was benching 245 for 5 reps while still weighing the same he did when he began his pro career. I watched his squat climb from 135 for 5 reps to 315 for 5 reps. I watched his strength go up from weeks to week without ever gaining weight. A testament to Pastore. I went along as they drove him all over PA, NY,NJ,and VA for sparring. Pastore took care of every expense in Kermits life. All Kermit had to do was train, eat, sleep, and fight. Everything outside those things was taken care of. Kermit lived with Pastore for 3 years. EXPENSE FREE. I could go on and on.
You might wonder "how does he know all this?" Well, I will tell you. I train in the same gym. Sparred tons of rounds with Kermit. I spent alot of time listening to Kermit praise Marshall and Joe for everything they did for him. How he would be with them forever. Marshall and Kerm were like father n son, and Joe n Kerm were like brothers. The reason there relationship fell apart can be summed up in two words. MARIA ROBERTS. She came on the scene and immediately started telling Kermit he no longer needed them. That they didn't deserve there percentages. That he should fire them. This went on through the Margarito camp, and after the fight thats exactly what he did.
As for the Reid fight... let me expain it like this. While Reid is not a world class boxer, he is a world class puncher. The whole gym was nervous about that fight. We had seen tape of Teddy sparring and KO'ing 2 heavyweights with one punch. Reid is the only WW I knew of that I thought could match Kermits physical strength and punching power. Fortunately Kermit trained liek a champion for that fight. He was strong, welll conditioned, and well school by Marshall as to how to beat Teddy.

Those damn women.. they'll be the end of us.