Barney Ross FIRST 3 three weight divisions champ.

[Dempsey1238]

Between the years 1933-1935, Ross Held The Lightweight, the Jr Welterweight and the Welterweight titles. In the year 1934 with his victory of McLarin, Ross became the FIRST man to hold 3 weight titles at the same time. He would vacate the lightweight and JrWelterweight title.

So Who sould rank higher Armstrong?? Or Ross?? Does this knock Henry Armstrong back down the ranks and put Ross as the top 3 pound for pound?

[jyuza]

Any source of it please?

[Dempsey1238]

1933
Jan 20 Johnny Datto Pittsburgh, Pa KO 2
Feb 22 Tommy Grogan Chicago, Il W 10
Mar 22 Billy Petrolle Chicago, Il W 10
Mar 26 Tony Canzoneri Chicago, Il W 10
-Junior Welterweight Championship of the World;
Lightweight Championship of the World
May 4 Joe Ghnouly St. Louis, Mo W 10
Jul 26 Johnny Farr Kansas City, Mo TK 6
Sep 12 Tony Canzoneri New York, NY W 15
-Junior Welterweight Championship of the World;
Lightweight Championship of the World
Nov 17 Sammy Fuller Chicago, Il W 10
-Junior Welterweight Championship of the World

1934
Jan 24 Billy Petrolle New York, NY W 10
Feb 7 Pete Nebo Kansas City, Mo W 12
-Junior Welterweight Championship of the World
Mar 5 Frankie Klick San Francisco, Ca D 10
-Junior Welterweight Championship of the World
Mar 14 Kid Moro Oakland, Ca W 10
Mar 27 Bobby Pacho Los Angeles, Ca W 10
May 28 Jimmy McLarnin New York, NY W 15
-Welterweight Championship of the World
Sep 17 Jimmy McLarnin New York, NY L 15
-Welterweight Championship of the World
Dec 10 Bobby Pacho Cleveland, Oh W 12
-Junior Welterweight Championship of the World

1935
Jan 28 Frankie Klick Miami, Fl W 10
-Junior Welterweight Championship of the World
Apr 9 Henry Woods Seattle, Wa W 12
-Junior Welterweight Championship of the World
Apr -Ross relinquished the Lightweight Championship of the World
and the Junior Welterweight Championship of the World
May 28 Jimmy McLarnin New York, NY W 15
-Welterweight Championship of the World
Sep 6 "Baby" Joe Gans Portland, Or TK 2
Sep 13 Ceferino Garcia San Francisco, Ca W 10
Nov 29 Ceferino Garcia Chicago, Il W 10

[Dempsey1238]

And Boxing Rec if you cant amitted it.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Note it says April 1935. Well after Ross beat McLarin to hold the 3 titles.

[jyuza]

Junior welterweight existed back then ?

[Dempsey1238]

Yes The lineal line for that title.

Pinky Mitchell (1922-1926)
Mushy Callahan (1926-1930)
Jackie "Kid" Berg (1930-1931)
Tony Canzoneri (1931-1932)
Johnny Jadick (1932-1933)
Battling Shaw (1933)
Tony Canzoneri (1933)
Barney Ross [1933-1935, vacates title]
Tippy Larkin [1946: vacates title; division lapses until 1959]
Carlos Ortiz (1959-1960)
Duilio Loi (1960-1962)
Eddie Perkins (1962)
Duilio Loi [1962, Loi retires 1/23/1963]
Eddie Perkins (1963-1965)
Carlos Hernandez (1965-1966)
Sandro Lopopolo (1966-1967)
Paul Fuji (1967-1968)
Nicolino Loche (1968-1972)
Alfonso "Peppermint" Frazer (1972)
Antonio Cervantes (1972-1976)
Wilfredo Benitez [1976-1979, vacates title]
Aaron Pryor (1983-1986, abandons title)
Julio Cesar Chavez 1990-1994
Frankie Randall (1994)
Julio Cesar Chavez (1994-1996)
Oscar De La Hoya (1996-1997, vacates title)
Kostya Tszyu(2001 to 2005)
Ricky Hatton (2005 to date)

[Dempsey1238]

But he was NOT the FIRST.

[Senya13]

They were saying Ross relinquished one of those titles before winning the 3rd, although I never saw exact sources or quotes for that.

[jyuza]

Ok thanks Dempsey.

[Dempsey1238]

He vacted Both titles in Apr 1935. He won the all 3 titles from 1933-1934, with his first win over McLarin. He would lose the title back to McLarin, Vacate both titles, and regain the title from McLarin in 35.

[TBooze]

The problem is Ross' 140lbs claim is only recognized by Illinois (Barney Ross; by Douglas Century and The BBB of C Yearbook; Barry J Hughman).

[Dempsey1238]

Back than stripping was pretty rare, Ross was defended his titles vs the likes of Canzi and McLarin, He WON the that 140 title from Canzi who was also Weight jumping. Neither has lost that belt in the ring before there first fight. Ross was also defended it against power foes like Cani, and Jackie Berg. It was legit.

[TBooze]

Back than stripping was pretty rare, Ross was defended his titles vs the likes of Canzi and McLarin, He WON the that 140 title from Canzi who was also Weight jumping. Neither has lost that belt in the ring before there first fight. Ross was also defended it against power foes like Cani, and Jackie Berg. It was legit.

But it was a World Title, a piece of alphabet crap, it was not the World Championship, unlike his 135 and 147lb crowns.

[Dempsey1238]

When Caniz held it it was a WORLD title. It was a WORLD title when he lost to Ross.

[TBooze]

When Caniz held it it was a WORLD title. It was a WORLD title when he lost to Ross.

No, neither the NBA nor the NYSAC, nor the IBU, nor The Ring recognized it, when Canzoneri won it, it was recognized by only Louisiana and when Ross beat Canzoneri, Illinois recognized the belt...

[Dempsey1238]

The following list gives credit to "The Man Who Beat The Man." As always, ludicrous decisions of "sanctioning bodies" are ignored. The title had been created by the New York Legislature in the Walker Law (1920).The NBA recognized the division on Jan. 22, 1922, but no champion was named. Several fighters claimed the title -- "Oakland" Jimmy Duffy, Richie Mitchell, his brother Pinky Mitchell, and Eddie Fitzsimmons. The Boxing Blade magazine held a vote whereby the fans named Pinky Mitchell as the inaugural champion, and we start our lineage with that democratic decision. Explore our On-Line Boxing Encyclopedia for more info. Comments can be sent to the Editors.Ciao!

And than we have the LINE
THE CYBER BOXING ZONE
presents
THE LINEAL JUNIOR WELTERWEIGHT CHAMPIONS
The following list gives credit to "The Man Who Beat The Man." As always, ludicrous decisions of "sanctioning bodies" are ignored. The title had been created by the New York Legislature in the Walker Law (1920).The NBA recognized the division on Jan. 22, 1922, but no champion was named. Several fighters claimed the title -- "Oakland" Jimmy Duffy, Richie Mitchell, his brother Pinky Mitchell, and Eddie Fitzsimmons. The Boxing Blade magazine held a vote whereby the fans named Pinky Mitchell as the inaugural champion, and we start our lineage with that democratic decision. Explore our On-Line Boxing Encyclopedia for more info. Comments can be sent to the Editors.Ciao!



Pinky Mitchell (1922-1926)
Mushy Callahan (1926-1930)
Jackie "Kid" Berg (1930-1931)
Tony Canzoneri (1931-1932)
Johnny Jadick (1932-1933)
Battling Shaw (1933)
Tony Canzoneri (1933)
Barney Ross [1933-1935, vacates title]

[TBooze]

The following list gives credit to "The Man Who Beat The Man." As always, ludicrous decisions of "sanctioning bodies" are ignored. The title had been created by the New York Legislature in the Walker Law (1920).The NBA recognized the division on Jan. 22, 1922, but no champion was named. Several fighters claimed the title -- "Oakland" Jimmy Duffy, Richie Mitchell, his brother Pinky Mitchell, and Eddie Fitzsimmons. The Boxing Blade magazine held a vote whereby the fans named Pinky Mitchell as the inaugural champion, and we start our lineage with that democratic decision. Explore our On-Line Boxing Encyclopedia for more info. Comments can be sent to the Editors.Ciao!

And than we have the LINE
THE CYBER BOXING ZONE
presents
THE LINEAL JUNIOR WELTERWEIGHT CHAMPIONS
The following list gives credit to "The Man Who Beat The Man." As always, ludicrous decisions of "sanctioning bodies" are ignored. The title had been created by the New York Legislature in the Walker Law (1920).The NBA recognized the division on Jan. 22, 1922, but no champion was named. Several fighters claimed the title -- "Oakland" Jimmy Duffy, Richie Mitchell, his brother Pinky Mitchell, and Eddie Fitzsimmons. The Boxing Blade magazine held a vote whereby the fans named Pinky Mitchell as the inaugural champion, and we start our lineage with that democratic decision. Explore our On-Line Boxing Encyclopedia for more info. Comments can be sent to the Editors.Ciao!



Pinky Mitchell (1922-1926)
Mushy Callahan (1926-1930)
Jackie "Kid" Berg (1930-1931)
Tony Canzoneri (1931-1932)
Johnny Jadick (1932-1933)
Battling Shaw (1933)
Tony Canzoneri (1933)
Barney Ross [1933-1935, vacates title]

That is Cyberzone, they are using hindsight and spinning history to suit their means (which they are admitting to). Both my sources (Douglas Century and Barry Hugman) researched information of the time...

[Dempsey1238]

Also Boxing Rec Also Called it a World Jr title.There was no mention of it being some backward title in Illios.

[TBooze]

Also Boxing Rec Also Called it a World Jr title.There was no mention of it being some backward title in Illios.

Well get your BBB of C book out then...

Boxrec is a great site, but it has many, many flaws (which it will admit to).

Barney Ross was a brilliant fighter and to hold World Championship at 135lbs and 147lbs is an amazing feat, there is no need to try and up it.

[janitor]

Incidentaly Terry McGovern should have been the first to hold three titles.

He won the bantemweight and featherweight titles and should have been awarded the lightweight title as well.

[Dempsey1238]

It was a WORLD TITLE. The Ring REFUSE to give any JR titles at the time no honors because Nat did not belive in them. And Ross beat Caniz for the title. It was not taking it from some jouryman. Most books will say Ross was the WORLD JR title.

The Untimate Enecyclopedia of Boxing by Harry Mullan called it a WORLD Title.

[TBooze]

It was a WORLD TITLE. The Ring REFUSE to give any JR titles at the time no honors because Nat did not belive in them.

Yes I agree!!! It was 'A World TITLE', but it was not 'THE World CHAMPIONSHIP', unlike his reigns at 135 and 147.

[Dempsey1238]

It was the World Championship of the World. Cani and others before him beat any one before Ross that had a claim to that belt. Cani made it WORLD Championship.

[Dempsey1238]

page 162 of The Untimate Enecyclopedia of Boxing by Harry Mullan.

When it does it line.

Ross beats Canzi than goes on to defend it against Farr, Cani, Fullmer, Nebo, Panco, Panco again, Klick and Woods before he gives the title up on April 9th 1935.

[Dempsey1238]

Also from the book

Controversy dogged the new divsion, weight limit, 140lbs. The New York commission redrew recognition in 1930,(Kid Berg was champ) and the British Board would not even accept there own Jack Kid Berg as champion when he beat Mushy Callahan at the Albert Hall in 1930. The Divsion fell out of order when Ross opted to defend his Welter-weight title instand. Carlos Ortiz got it up and running.

[TBooze]

.

[Dempsey1238]

And Shaw won it from Jadick who beat Caniz for the title.

[TBooze]

When Caniz held it it was a WORLD title. It was a WORLD title when he lost to Ross.

Canzoneri beat Battling Shaw for the Louisiana version of the 140lbs crown, then Canzoneri lost that title to Ross. Check the source you gave me Boxrec.com...

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Dempsey1238]

And Shaw WON it from Johnny Jadick, WHO BEAT Caniz for the title. Caniz beat Berg who beat Callahnan who NBA withdrew from only because he denfeded the title in England.

[TBooze]

And Shaw WON it from Johnny Jadick, WHO BEAT Caniz for the title. Caniz beat Berg who beat Callahnan who NBA withdrew from only because he denfeded the title in England.

But it was a World Title, not a World Championship; there is a huge difference. I have won a World Title, and trust me I am not 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000th the boxer Ross was!

[Dempsey1238]

It was the LINEAL WORLD Championship of the world. They had NO RIGHT to with draw Callahnan because he defended it against Kid Berg. Berg was a GREAT fighter. Berg was perhaps the best choice at the time of the defense. They withdrew because they wanted the title to STAY In America. And not in the hands of a brit. No right to withdraw. No right at all. So it is a WORLD Championship because of the unjest stripping of Callahnan. and any man that beats Berg, is the rightful champion, and so forth.

[TBooze]

It was the LINEAL WORLD Championship of the world. They had NO RIGHT to with draw Callahnan because he defended it against Kid Berg. Berg was a GREAT fighter. Berg was perhaps the best choice at the time of the defense. They withdrew because they wanted the title to STAY In America. And not in the hands of a brit. No right to withdraw. No right at all. So it is a WORLD Championship because of the unjest stripping of Callahnan. and any man that beats Berg, is the rightful champion, and so forth.

As Cyberzone admit, they are making it up, it is only Cyberzone's opinion:

"The Boxing Blade magazine held a vote whereby the fans named Pinky Mitchell as the inaugural champion, and we start our lineage with that democratic decision."

It is not historically correct, the only people who recognized Ross as Champion at 140lbs were the people running the Illinois Boxing Commisson...

[Dempsey1238]

And the Lineal line, Callahan beat Divodi for the NBA and New Yourk titles which means in a Alpha sense in that day and age, he was the WORLD Championship of the world. He was only lacking the BBC title. They WITHDREW from Callahan when he decided to fight Jack Kid Berg.

Look at Lewis, they withdrew from him the MOVEMENT he unify all the titles, and he still was the WORLD Heavyweight Championship of the World when he lost to Rahman. The title just pass down on to Rahamn all though we had Ruiz and a few other guys claiming to be champs.

[Sam Dixon]

If Ross was only recognized in Illinois what's he doing defending the 140 pound championship under those other state's jurisdiction?

[TBooze]

And the Lineal line, Callahan beat Divodi for the NBA and New Yourk titles which means in a Alpha sense in that day and age, he was the WORLD Championship of the world. He was only lacking the BBC title. They WITHDREW from Callahan when he decided to fight Jack Kid Berg.



I think you along with many others do not understand what lineage means. But I will give you your 'lineage', it just another piece of alphabet crap. Ross never was the Junior Welterweight Champion of the World. You can spin it now to give him your 'lineage' and quote people who want to re-write history, hindsight can change things now, but it cannot change facts as they happened; and the fact was between 1933 and 1935 only Illinois had Ross as a world title holder at 140lbs...

[TBooze]

If Ross was only recognized in Illinois what's he doing defending the 140 pound championship under those other state's jurisdiction?

Fighters often fought outside the state of their world title recognition.

[Dempsey1238]

Ross was the lineal champ, Pinky was the FIRST Champ, poll or not, and Callahnan beat him. Than Callahnan beat the other climates to be the unfiy champ. You will not amitted it. Who ever beat Callahnan from THAT point on, will be the Lineal and rightful champ.

[TBooze]

Ross was the lineal champ, Pinky was the FIRST Champ, poll or not, and Callahnan beat him. Than Callahnan beat the other climates to be the unfiy champ. You will not amitted it. Who ever beat Callahnan from THAT point on, will be the Lineal and rightful champ.

The fact is the title was the illinois world title, you cannot spin that. You can create your lineage in 2007, but it is with over 70 years of hindsight thrown in, you cannot scrub out matters of fact in 1933, today.

There would be no need to have a boxing forum if that was the case!;)

[Dempsey1238]

So Was Raham just a WBC Champ or was he a WORLD Champ???

[Sam Dixon]

Fighters often fought outside the state of their world title recognition.

Or it could be that Ross was considered the 140 pound champion in other states as well, as was the case when Ross defended against Klick in California, which is at least one other state that considered Ross the champion of the division.

[TBooze]

So Was Raham just a WBC Champ or was he a WORLD Champ???

Rahman was the Heavyweight Champion of the World when he beat Lennox Lewis... What has that got to do with Ross' Illinois title?

[TBooze]

Or it could be that Ross was considered the 140 pound champion in other states as well, as was the case when Ross defended against Klick in California, which is at least one other state that considered Ross the champion of the division.

Could be, but the only evidence I have seen is that it was an Illinois title.

[Dempsey1238]

Because Ross beat the man who beat the man. Callahnan was the Champ when he unify the NBA and New York titles which count in thsos days. He was the CHAMP. And his win over Pinky took out any real content on who the champ was in that divison. Who ever beat Callahnan was going to be the next lineal champ. And so forth and so forth. The NBA strip Callahnan because he defended it against a Brit. And YOU WILL Agree that was unfair>??

[TBooze]

Because Ross beat the man who beat the man.

But Rahman did not... so what has that got to do with Ross?

[Dempsey1238]

Rahman beat Lewis who unify the title in the Holyfiled, Moore, era. After the 2nd Holyfiled fight Lewis was the MAN. Same reason applies to Rahman which made Rahman the lineal champ in terms of Ross. Or Briggs when he beat Foreman.

[Sam Dixon]

Could be, but the only evidence I have seen is that it was an Illinois title.

Well, the day after fight reports from the Ross/Klick fight do illustrate that California also backed Ross' championship at 140 after the Klick fight, and for one such example;

"Ross is recognized as Junior Welterweight titleholder in Illinois and California" - AP report dated March 6th, 1934

[TBooze]

Rahman beat Lewis who unify the title in the Holyfiled, Moore, era. After the 2nd Holyfiled fight Lewis was the MAN. Same reason applies to Rahman which made Rahman the lineal champ in terms of Ross. Or Briggs when he beat Foreman.

I was SHBF, he did not win that; Rodrigues was WBF champ, he did not win that!

What you should say is

In 1970 everybody that mattered WBA, WBC, The Ring and Muhammad Ali agreed that the winner of Joe Frazier/Jimmy Ellis would become World Champion.

Frazier beat Ellis

Foreman beat Frazier

Ali beat Foreman

Spinks beat Ali

Ali beat Spinks

Holmes beat Ali

Spinks beat Holmes

Tyson beat Spinks

Douglas beat Tyson

Holyfield beat Douglas

Bowe beat Holyfield

Holyfield beat Bowe

Moorer beat Holyfield

Foreman beat Moorer

Briggs beat Foreman

Lewis beat Briggs

and then Rahman beat Lewis

Rahman's championship was legitmate because of what happened in 1970, it has nothing in common with Ross though.

[UpWithEvil]

I don't want to live in a world where a lummox like Shannon Briggs is a linear heavyweight champion.

[Street Lethal]

I don't want to live in a world where a lummox like Shannon Briggs is a linear heavyweight champion.

It's pretty nauseating for sure. I keep reminding myself that he didn't beat Foreman. The only saving grace of that fight was that it meant that lineage would be transferred down the line, because I think Foreman was close to retiring.

[Street Lethal]

The 130 and 140 pound weight classes are exciting divisions with rich histories. But when I think about three division champions I don't see these weight classes the same way as the main weight classes. It doesn't seem like they were recognized around the world as legitimate weight classes during the days of Barney Ross. It doesn't take anything away from Ross, and I still credit him with the title, but I agree that it is not the same as what Armstrong did.

[Senya13]

Ring Record Book 1964

1933
June 23--Tony Canzoneri, Chicago _____W 10
(Won Lightweight & Jr. Welterweight Titles)
Sept. 12--Tony Canzoneri, N. Y. C. ______W 15
(Lightweight Title Bout)
Gave up lightweight title
Nov. 17--Sammy Fuller, Chicago _______W 10
(Jr. Welterweight Title Bout)

1934
May 28--Jimmy McLarnin, N. Y. C. ____W 15
(Won World Welter Title)
Sept. 17--Jimmy McLarnin, N. Y. C. ____L 15
(Lost World Welter Title)
Dec. 10--*Bobby Pacho, Cleveland _____W 12
*Jr. Welterweight Title Bout.

1935
May 28--Jimmy McLarnin, N. Y. C. _____W 15
(Re-won World Welterweight Championship)
Gave up Jr. Welterweight Title
Nov. 29--Ceferino Garcia, Chicago ______W 10
*Jr. Welterweight Title Bout.

[Dempsey1238]

He didnt give up the title in 33, he vacted the lightweight title in 35. Harry Mullan's book says so.

[Dempsey1238]

some sites in regards to the lightweight title of Ross

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Vacateds title in 35.

[Sam Dixon]

He didnt give up the title in 33, he vacted the lightweight title in 35. Harry Mullan's book says so.

As do a number of contemporary sources from the time, which state that Ross relinquished the lightweight title on April 15th of that year, and here's only one mention of it;

"Barney Ross, the little fellow who has ruled the lightweights for the last two years, decided he was too big for them today, and so he turned in his resignation as champion of the 135-pounders to the New York State Athletic Commision." - Washington Post, April 16th, 1935

I haven't done any cross references to this yet, but Harry Mullan's book (which is wonderful, by the way) also states that in June of 1935 "Ross relinquished the title on regaining the welterweight championship", which is referencing his giving up the jr welterweight championship.

[Nemesis]

I havent read the rest of this thread but, wasnt Bob Fitzimmons the 1st 3 weight champ?