Heavyweights punching power then and now

[RonnieHornschuh]

it is often said that shavers, foreman and marciano are the most powerful punchers in boxing history, even more powerful than today's superheavyweights. i highly doubt that, shavers (6'0) and foreman were below 210 lbs, marciano (5'10) only at 185 pounds. with all the modern training techniques, more size and 240+ pounds today's heavy hitters must really do something wrong if they can't at least hit as hard as those three. my assumption is that if they measured the psi of let's say wlad klitschko, brewster, sam peter they would at least hit as hard as foreman and co., maybe harder. (klitschko is more a specialist for straights hands though). share your opinion please!!!

[Shpion]

It is all physics, which includes a lot of intangibles such as pivot, speed, weight mass (overall body and bone density), and contact area etc. that determine the power. For example, if Peter at 250 with higher bone dencity and Marciano at 185 with lower bone dencity would punch with the same fist size(contact area), speed and pivot, the impact by Peter would be much higher.

[joeboxer]

It is all physics, which includes a lot of intangibles such as pivot, speed, weight mass (overall body and bone density), and contact area etc. that determine the power. For example, if Peter at 250 with higher bone dencity and Marciano at 185 with lower bone dencity would punch with the same wrist size(contact area), speed and pivot, the impact by Peter would be much higher.Bone Density? wrong. the inertia of the object throwing the punch would have a far greater effect on pressure. Theoretically, a smaller fist (not wrist) (smaller fist because the force is condensed to a smaller are) from a heavier man) thrown with high speed would be the hardest punch. THe difference in bone density and I guess hardness (i'm not really sure what your arguement is there) would be negligible.

[Shotgun]

Of recent heavyweights, I would say the pure force of a full on Lewis or Wlad overhand right is probably about as hard as anyone could hit. But Lewis and Wlad usually didn't throw their hardest punches even when going for the kill, unlike Foreman, Shavers, Tyson who frequently threw nearly as had as they could

[Sonny's jab]

Valuev must hit the hardest, he's the biggest. :yep

[macp]

It's all relative. the guys they were fighting are not comparable to the guys today. imagine a rocky or foreman with todays advances in nutrition, training techniques, equipment, etc. if klit or tyson did a quantum leap though, theyd probably literally kill some of the old timers i think.

[Shpion]

Bone Density? wrong. the inertia of the object throwing the punch would have a far greater effect on pressure. Theoretically, a smaller fist (not wrist) (smaller fist because the force is condensed to a smaller are) from a heavier man) thrown with high speed would be the hardest punch. THe difference in bone density and I guess hardness (i'm not really sure what your arguement is there) would be negligible.

I was referring to bone mass. I guess it can fall under overall weight though. I also edited from wrist to fist.

[Darthmage]

It's all relative. the guys they were fighting are not comparable to the guys today. imagine a rocky or foreman with todays advances in nutrition, training techniques, equipment, etc. if klit or tyson did a quantum leap though, theyd probably literally kill some of the old timers i think.

man, I could swear Blocky has said this very same stuff before. Must be Deja vu or something. heh

[macp]

man, I could swear Blocky has said this very same stuff before. Must be Deja vu or something. heh

Then this blocky must be a smart guy! lol. no, seriously, i just relate it to other sports like hockey or baseball. pitchers never threw 100 mph in the 50's. imagine bonds facing a constant 70 mph fastball?

[PowerPuncher]

More to punch than weight

Naseem Hamed was said to hit as hard as a top middleweight despite weighing 126lbs (starting at 115lbs)

140lb Kostya Tyszu is much stronger than 230lb John Ruiz in gym lifts and is also said to hit like a middleweight

175lb Roy Jones Jr stunned Ruiz - something Evander Holyfield did not manage

Tyson at 210lbs was known to have a more lethal KO punch than any 250lb fighter around in his time

210lb Foreman was still perhaps the biggest puncher of the 90s despite been very old

210lb Tua (could have weighed 200lbs or less and been as strong) hit harder than anyone today

[magnificentdave]

i hit really hard too, and I dont weight 250 lbs

[Vantage_West]

i feel wieght is overated....do you think julian jackson could hit harde rthan shavers...and for some reason i totally feel jacksons punches were by far harder.

[heerko koois]

More to punch than weight

Naseem Hamed was said to hit as hard as a top middleweight despite weighing 126lbs (starting at 115lbs)

140lb Kostya Tyszu is much stronger than 230lb John Ruiz in gym lifts and is also said to hit like a middleweight

175lb Roy Jones Jr stunned Ruiz - something Evander Holyfield did not manage

Tyson at 210lbs was known to have a more lethal KO punch than any 250lb fighter around in his time

210lb Foreman was still perhaps the biggest puncher of the 90s despite been very old

210lb Tua (could have weighed 200lbs or less and been as strong) hit harder than anyone today

Foreman 210 lb ? are you sure ?

[Rock0052]

It's all about avoiding diminishing results- finding that perfect weight that allows you to keep the right amount of bulk while being able to throw at optimum speed, and, in a fighter like Rocky's case who KO'd many a fighter late, be in good enough condition to continue throwing with that velocity throughout the course of a fight. That last bit wasn't something that Shavers or Foreman really worried about or showed they could do, as their modus operandi was to bomb the other guy out ASAP.

Also, being too big can have an adverse effect on technique because the fighter generally won't be able to have the same kind of leverage and flexibility. That's why bigger fighters who still have great power (think Foreman and to an extent, Butterbean) are clubbers who rely on brute strength and a little technique instead of precision KO artists who'd rely on modest (relatively speaking) brute strength and great technique and speed to get the punch there in the first place.

Edit: For example, I weigh 250 and have decent handspeed and hit hard, but I wouldn't be able to wind up and hit alot of smaller guys using good technique to land that spectacular pinpoint KO shot hitting as hard as I could- unless the other guys asleep or out of it, it takes too long for that punch to land where I want it to.

[Mr "T"]

There's got to be a "punchmeter",if you will, to start measuring punching power,instead of Shaver's and Marciano B.S. Foreman probably punches as hard as Wlad, who I regard as a "monster puncher" right now.Tyson and Ike,Tua were also very powerful.

[LennoxGOAT]

Guys hit harder today than they did back then. And guys in 15 years will hit harder than today. It is the evolution of the athlete and is represented in every single sport today. I find it amazing that people refuse to recognize this in boxing by continuing to argue guys in the past hit harder than fighters today.

[codeman99998]

This is a simple math problem.

Force = Mass times Speed squared.

Size doesn't have everything to do with it. A bullet impacts with more force than a punch not because it has more mass than a fist but because it comes so much faster. The fact that the speed is squared is very important in that scenario.

With punches, however, the speed that people throw them doesn't differ SO much. Say, and I'm just guessing because I have no idea how fast their arms are actually moving, a very fast puncher punches at 30mph, while a relatively slow puncher punches at 20mph. The weight, or mass, behind those punches is going to make a big difference. If the fast puncher throws arm punches, like a Cory Spinks, the mass of his arm is, say, 20 lbs. 20lbs times 30mph squared (900) is going to be 18000 whatever. A slower puncher who throws punches with his weight behind them, say, Taylor with a straight right is going to have 175ish lbs times 20mph squared (400) which equals 70,000 whatever. Therefore Taylor is clearly the harder puncher of the two.

Most of a punchers power comes from the fact that he puts his WEIGHT behind the punch. Correct punching technique is where the power comes from. It is the reason that broadcasters and boxing experts criticize "arm punches".

Valuev is a prime example. When he puts his weight behind his punches correctly he can hit with some power (did anyone see how he threw his entire body into that last punch against Monte Barret?) but he typically doesn't do that. Also, he is SO slow that it clearly affects his power, the speed is squared so really it is extremely important, though, not as important as the correct technique.

When you have to correct form, for say, a straight right hand, you put all of your body mass behind the punch. Wladimir has an amazingly technically correct right hand punch. Wladimir is very fast and Wladimir is huge compared to those heavyweights of yesteryear. As far as straight rights go, his definitely hits harder.

I was sort of everywhere there, forgive me.

[codeman99998]

Physical appearance has absolutely NOTHING to do with punching power.

Also, punching power is relative. In a boxing match, it is not about who is the most powerful as much as it is who is the most powerful relative to the other person's chin. Tyson was almost definitely more powerful than Holyfield, but he wasn't powerful enough to break his amazing beard so it didn't matter. Brewster is almost definitely less powerful than Wladimir, but he has taken the best Wladimir could dish out for four rounds and Wladimir couldn't take the best Brewster gave so it didn't matter.

Too much emphasis is put on one puncher being more powerful than another, when it isn't really that important. For instance, even if Marciano was much weaker than Klitschko, if he hit hard enough to KO Klitschko and Klitschko didn't hit hard enough to KO Marciano than it doesn't matter who hits harder. The fight will make it appear that Marciano hits harder, but it isn't necessarily the case.

[Zakman]

Valuev must hit the hardest, he's the biggest. :yep

:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl

Thanks for pointing out the absurdity of this latest version of the "bigger is better" thesis!! :yep :nut

[codeman99998]

It's more form than anything else. It's about correctly placing your weight behind the punch more than ANYTHING else. It's math man, the more of your mass you put behind the punch, considering that all fighters punch at similar speeds (in a physics since) the more powerful it will be.

[Butch Coolidge]

All things being equal a big man hits harder than a smaller man. Our resident physicists have established that. But there's a huge difference between a hard punch and an effective punch. Accuracy has a lot to do with a punch being effective. Bang on a guys short ribs and it takes a few rounds to get the kind of effect you want. Crack him in the liver or solar plexus and good night Irene. Pop him hard square in the forehead and piss him off. Pop him in the temple and he's doing the Ottke vs Mundine reverse swan dive. That's why the punch you don't see coming is the one that flattens you.

[oblate]

The hardest punchers don't necessarily become champion. I think Ike Ibeabuchi was a monstrous puncher, but it didn't translate into a belt.
well thats cause he went to jail hehe.

[codeman99998]

All things being equal a big man hits harder than a smaller man. Our resident physicists have established that. But there's a huge difference between a hard punch and an effective punch. Accuracy has a lot to do with a punch being effective. Bang on a guys short ribs and it takes a few rounds to get the kind of effect you want. Crack him in the liver or solar plexus and good night Irene. Pop him hard square in the forehead and piss him off. Pop him in the temple and he's doing the Ottke vs Mundine reverse swan dive. That's why the punch you don't see coming is the one that flattens you.

I agree. The actual force behind the punch isn't the most important factor when comparing boxers at all. Having lots of power behind a punch, for instance, is worthless if all of your punches miss. Hitting someone in the correct place with a slightly less powerful punch will be more effective than hitting them in a not-so perfect place with a harder punch. Hence the term "on the button" for a perfectly placed punch (as if boxers had a button that if you punched would be an automatic KO). Being slightly more powerful, or even WAY more powerful doesn't make up for not throwing enough punches to KO your opponet. Throwing powerful punches in combinations accurately is better than landing one punch at a time with slightly more power.

Power is overrated sometimes.

[Brickhaus]

Then this blocky must be a smart guy! lol. no, seriously, i just relate it to other sports like hockey or baseball. pitchers never threw 100 mph in the 50's. imagine bonds facing a constant 70 mph fastball?

That's BS. Maybe there weren't as many guys throwing 90, but I have little doubt that Amos Rusie was hitting triple digits in 1900 and Walter Johnson was hitting triple digits in 1920.

I wouldn't be shocked if one or two of those smaller old timers hit as hard (or harder than) today's heavyweights. Hell, the hardest hitter right now is quite possibly a cruiserweight (Macca).

[o_money]

I was sort of everywhere there, forgive me.

Yup, you were everywhere, allow me.

The simple answer to this question is that if the two sets of heavyweights were asked to hit a stationary force meter the new heavy's would hit it a lot harder then the older ones. Because as you said:

Force = (Mass)*(acceleration)

This is the simple answer.

A more complicated question would be: Who hit there opponent's harder? Because force can also be measured as a change in momentum, which is a vector quantity; therefore, the movement of the opponent is also factored into the overall force of the impact. When adding two vectors together the total force is greatest when the two oppossing forces are traveling in perfectly opposing directions (i.e. when a guy gets caught with a strieght shot walking striaght in, a la tyson v botha). In other words the actual force of an impact has as much to do with how and when a fighter catches his opponent as it does with how hard he himself actually throws a punch. More skilled fighters are better at hitting there opponent in a way that maximizes the force of the impact (i.e. better at catching them flush); therefore, the actual force of an impact has more to do with the skill of the fighter then the size of the fighter. Just try tellin' jersey Joe that he would have got hit harder by Rahman......Don't think he'd agree.

The scarry thing is when one of these giants like lewis has the skill to go with his size......

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Grabonator]

it is often said that shavers, foreman and marciano are the most powerful punchers in boxing history, even more powerful than today's superheavyweights. i highly doubt that, shavers (6'0) and foreman were below 210 lbs, marciano (5'10) only at 185 pounds. with all the modern training techniques, more size and 240+ pounds today's heavy hitters must really do something wrong if they can't at least hit as hard as those three. my assumption is that if they measured the psi of let's say wlad klitschko, brewster, sam peter they would at least hit as hard as foreman and co., maybe harder. (klitschko is more a specialist for straights hands though). share your opinion please!!!

Foreman was about 220 in his prime, not under 210.

[codeman99998]

That's BS. Maybe there weren't as many guys throwing 90, but I have little doubt that Amos Rusie was hitting triple digits in 1900 and Walter Johnson was hitting triple digits in 1920.

I wouldn't be shocked if one or two of those smaller old timers hit as hard (or harder than) today's heavyweights. Hell, the hardest hitter right now is quite possibly a cruiserweight (Macca).

It is irrelevant, and I don't follow baseball but how can you possibly have little doubt that two pitchers from THAT long ago threw in triple digits? I mean, have you ever SEEN them pitch?

Also, if most guys were throwing 60-70mph back then, wouldn't a 90mph pitch seem like a BULLET compared? Isn't a 100mph pitch like, tough for most modern pitchers to throw?

[codeman99998]

Yup, you were everywhere, allow me.

The simple answer to this question is that if the two sets of heavyweights were asked to hit a stationary force meter the new heavy's would hit it a lot harder then the older ones. Because as you said:

Force = (Mass)*(acceleration)

This is the simple answer.

A more complicated question would be: Who hit there opponent's harder? Because force can also be measured as a change in momentum, which is a vector quantity; therefore, the movement of the opponent is also factored into the overall force of the impact. When adding two vectors together the total force is greatest when the two oppossing forces are traveling in perfectly opposing directions (i.e. when a guy gets caught with a strieght shot walking striaght in, a la tyson v botha). In other words the actual force of an impact has as much to do with how and when a fighter catches his opponent as it does with how hard he himself actually throws a punch. More skilled fighters are better at hitting there opponent in a way that maximizes the force of the impact (i.e. better at catching them flush); therefore, the actual force of an impact has more to do with the skill of the fighter then the size of the fighter. Just try tellin' jersey Joe that he would have got hit harder by Rahman......Don't think he'd agree.

The scarry thing is when one of these giants like lewis has the skill to go with his size......

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Hahaha, thanks dude. I haven't taken any sort of physics class (high school physics only anyways) in years.

[o_money]

Hahaha, thanks dude. I haven't taken any sort of physics class (high school physics only anyways) in years.

No worries mate....you had the right ideas. just was a little hard to follow.

[Flatlander]

Many fighters have stood up to an overhand right thrown and connected by many of today's superheavies. No one stood up to an overhand right thrown and connected by "The Acorn" Earnie Shavers.

Most of today's heavyweights are pure bull shit as fighters and would not last 12 rounds let alone 15 with the fighters of the 60s, 70s, . Fighters like Shavers, Foreman, Lyle, Liston would all KO most of the top 50 of the fighters in the 80s, 90s and today.

[Farmboxer]

Vitali and Vladimir Klitschko hite extremely hard.

[macp]

It is irrelevant, and I don't follow baseball but how can you possibly have little doubt that two pitchers from THAT long ago threw in triple digits? I mean, have you ever SEEN them pitch?

Also, if most guys were throwing 60-70mph back then, wouldn't a 90mph pitch seem like a BULLET compared? Isn't a 100mph pitch like, tough for most modern pitchers to throw?

Ok, look at track and field athletes. the 100m sprint back in the 50's had a world record of over 10 seconds, probably closer to 11 seconds. today, the women run that. i obviously dont have the stats at hand, but all physical records are leaps and bounds above what they were even 20 years ago. hockey players are skating faster and shooting harder, runningbacks are quicker, golfers are hitting longer drives...why is it so hard to imagine a boxer can get better in time?
its simple that all athletes today are bigger, stronger, and faster than athletes from yesteryear, and boxers are no exception.

[McGrain]

It's all relative. the guys they were fighting are not comparable to the guys today. imagine a rocky or foreman with todays advances in nutrition, training techniques, equipment, etc.


What training techniques are there that exsist to day that have been proven to be useful that weren't around in Foreman's day, or, for that matter, Rocky's? I would agree that there have been advances in nutrition but I honestly don't think it affects the heavyweights, at all. The learning in nutrition is all concerned with keeping guys boiling down to lesser weights healthy and strong through proper diet.

Marciano new as well as Peter that you must eat plenty of protein, lots of food, plenty of veg etc. to stay strong, healthy and to traing properly.

I don't see how advance isn nutrition, training techniques of equipment make a blind bit of difference to heavyweight fighters.

[McGrain]

Ok, look at track and field athletes. the 100m sprint back in the 50's had a world record of over 10 seconds, probably closer to 11 seconds. today, the women run that. i obviously dont have the stats at hand, but all physical records are leaps and bounds above what they were even 20 years ago. hockey players are skating faster and shooting harder, runningbacks are quicker, golfers are hitting longer drives...why is it so hard to imagine a boxer can get better in time?
its simple that all athletes today are bigger, stronger, and faster than athletes from yesteryear, and boxers are no exception.


What you say about sprinters is quite true. However boxing IS a little different. First of all it's about absolutes and intabgibles. To run the fastest you nead to train to run the fastest, that is that. It's not the same in boxing because nobody has a clue about what will happen in the ring. Athletics was partaken mainly by amatuers who were involved for the fun and sometimes the glory - nobody was going to get killed. With boxing it was different. You could be killed in the ring. If you stank the place out and turned in a pitiful performance that promoter may never use you again. It would cost you money.

So people in boxing, from as soon as they were boxing, were training just as hard as the possibly could to win. What I am saying is the SPORT of athletics has evolved in a way boxing has not. No atheletes train harder than boxers and that is the way it has always been - they have always been looking for that edge outside of the ring.

[quintonjacksonfan]

The myth that the fighters of the 90's hit harder is B.S. Foreman was knocked

down 4 times by fighters from the 70's but not one time by the bigger

stronger fighters of the 90's. Let's not forget Foreman was fat and old

and much easier to hit in the 90's yet not one fighter from the 90's put him

on his ass.

Smaller heavyweights such as Shavers, Weaver, Norton, and Snipes in the 70's did a lot more damage to

Holmes then Mercer or McCall in the 90's. The same Mercer and McCall that gave Lewis all he could handle

[RonnieHornschuh]

you can't say ali and especially young were huge punchers. foreman never went down in the 90s because he didn't overpace himself and wasn't hit with enough accuracy and was 40 pounds heavier. he almost was beaten down by stewart, he would probably have gotten beaten down by lewis.

[quintonjacksonfan]

That's my point Stewart landed so many punches and he still could not get Foreman out. Lyle

had Foreman in big trouble with one punch in the first round . If a fighter from the 70's

landed the 15 punch combination like Holyfield did in the 7th round of their fight Foreman

would of been knocked out

I don't care if he paced himself when your that out of shape you get tired fast. If the Foreman of the 90's fought in

the 70's he would of been knocked out on more then one occassion

[BoppaZoo]

all im going to say with punching power is some guys have and some guys dont.

i think it is just something you get blessed with personally it has nothing to do with technique or timing but is just one of those things.

like say Haerns,Tszyu,Foreman,Hamed,Pacquiao,Tyson,Gunboat Smith those guys just are born with it.

its like baseballers are born with having quick batspeed and some pitchers are born with having a super fastball.

i say though that there is no way that Klitschko or Maskeav or any of those guys even Lennox Lewis hit harder than Foreman.
there KO's would come from timing not so much brutal power like George had.

[Executioner]

i feel wieght is overated....do you think julian jackson could hit harde rthan shavers...and for some reason i totally feel jacksons punches were by far harder.


:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :lol: :lol: :patsch

[Denny Cruser]

If the guy couldnt KO 80 kg man, how can we compare him with Tua or Tyson? It is impossible.

[kaygb]

It is irrelevant, and I don't follow baseball but how can you possibly have little doubt that two pitchers from THAT long ago threw in triple digits? I mean, have you ever SEEN them pitch?

Also, if most guys were throwing 60-70mph back then, wouldn't a 90mph pitch seem like a BULLET compared? Isn't a 100mph pitch like, tough for most modern pitchers to throw?


In 1950 Bob Feller, of the Cleveland Indians, was clocked at 100 MPH. In 1941 Lefty Grove was said to have thrown 99 to 101 MPH consistantly. In the 80's Nolan Ryan waa clocked at 104 MPH.
There was also a relief pitcher for the Yankees, Ryne Duran, who constantly threw 98 to 100MPH and all he had was that fast ball. He was the best relief pitcher in the game then and the reason he was so effective with only a fast ball is he was 90 percent blind. He didn't know who was at bat until the announcer called out his name. He led the league with hit batters and they were petrified of him. His era in 1953 was .080.
There were guys in the past that threw as hard as they do today.

[Butch Coolidge]

The myth that the fighters of the 90's hit harder is B.S. Foreman was knocked

down 4 times by fighters from the 70's but not one time by the bigger

stronger fighters of the 90's. Let's not forget Foreman was fat and old

and much easier to hit in the 90's yet not one fighter from the 90's put him

on his ass.

Smaller heavyweights such as Shavers, Weaver, Norton, and Snipes in the 70's did a lot more damage to

Holmes then Mercer or McCall in the 90's. The same Mercer and McCall that gave Lewis all he could handle

Foreman was never hit by Lennox Lewis or either Klitschko. In fact, the guys he fought in the 90s were about the same size as the ones he fought back in the day. He said Cooney hit him every bit as hard as Lyle or Frazier and he was starting to get nervous until Cooney froze long enough for Big George to konk him. Morrison is the other big puncher that Foreman faced, problem is again, Morrison had a big punch like Shavers and Lyle but he was about the same size as them and Morrison wisely didn't sit down on any of his punches thrown vs Big George chosing to wisely box and stay out of George's way. I think if Lewis had hit George everybody would have seen the difference. Instead we end up using Holyfield, Moorer, Shulz as the measuring stick of the time. Holy and Moorer were pretty good punchers but not comparable to Lewis or the Klitschkos, Shulz would be doing good to cook eggs for breakfast.


As for Valuev, he seldom sat down on his punches. Most of them were arm punches. If he would have thrown with full power he would have gassed after four rounds but he was smart enough to use his huge stature to wear his opponents down for the most part instead of wearing himself out.

[Sonny's jab]

Foreman was never hit by Lennox Lewis or either Klitschko. In fact, the guys he fought in the 90s were about the same size as the ones he fought back in the day. He said Cooney hit him every bit as hard as Lyle or Frazier and he was starting to get nervous until Cooney froze long enough for Big George to konk him. Morrison is the other big puncher that Foreman faced, problem is again, Morrison had a big punch like Shavers and Lyle but he was about the same size as them and Morrison wisely didn't sit down on any of his punches thrown vs Big George chosing to wisely box and stay out of George's way. I think if Lewis had hit George everybody would have seen the difference. Instead we end up using Holyfield, Moorer, Shulz as the measuring stick of the time. Holy and Moorer were pretty good punchers but not comparable to Lewis or the Klitschkos, Shulz would be doing good to cook eggs for breakfast.

Shannon Briggs and Alex Stewart - along with Tommy Morrison - were probably the hardest punchers Foreman fought in the 90s. They hit hard, but maybe they boxed safely against Foreman. But maybe Lewis would have boxed safely against Foreman. So we will never know.

I dont see any evidence to believe the Klitschkos and Lewis hit any harder than Foreman and Shavers. They all hit hard.

[NBT]

All things being equal a big man hits harder than a smaller man. Our resident physicists have established that. But there's a huge difference between a hard punch and an effective punch. Accuracy has a lot to do with a punch being effective. Bang on a guys short ribs and it takes a few rounds to get the kind of effect you want. Crack him in the liver or solar plexus and good night Irene. Pop him hard square in the forehead and piss him off. Pop him in the temple and he's doing the Ottke vs Mundine reverse swan dive. That's why the punch you don't see coming is the one that flattens you.
That a whole different thing, has nothing to with what you said. If you see the punch coming your brain subconsciously prepares for the impact in a split second and is therefore able to handle it better. If you don't see the punch coming it can't do that and that's why those punches have more effect.

[Butch Coolidge]

That a whole different thing, has nothing to with what you said. If you see the punch coming your brain subconsciously prepares for the impact in a split second and is therefore able to handle it better. If you don't see the punch coming it can't do that and that's why those punches have more effect.

You see the punch coming, you instinctively move out of the way or put something between you and the punch, spoiling the accuracy of the punch. The unseen punch has more of a chance of landing flush with the target.

[stuistylee]

hes not tall but hes big so thats y butterbean kicks

[Butch Coolidge]

hes not tall but hes big so thats y butterbean kicks

Feel free to laugh at the Bean all you want but I wouldn't want to take a right hand from the guy.

[brown_bomber]

That's BS. Maybe there weren't as many guys throwing 90, but I have little doubt that Amos Rusie was hitting triple digits in 1900 and Walter Johnson was hitting triple digits in 1920.

I wouldn't be shocked if one or two of those smaller old timers hit as hard (or harder than) today's heavyweights. Hell, the hardest hitter right now is quite possibly a cruiserweight (Macca).


put macca in the ring with david haye then we'll see how hard he hits, haye will kill him :D

[ChrisPontius]

More to punch than weight

Tyson at 210lbs was known to have a more lethal KO punch than any 250lb fighter around in his time

210lb Foreman was still perhaps the biggest puncher of the 90s despite been very old


Lewis knocked Ruddock down three times in 2 rounds enroute to a stoppage.
Tyson, a few months earlier couldn't stop him in 12 rounds. He did stop him in 7 before that, but that was a premature stoppage, one of the worst i've seen.

Lewis stopped Botha in 2, Tyson needed 5. I know, bad comparison because Tyson was in shit shape and old, but then again, you also compared an old Holyfield vs Ruiz to a prime RJJ vs Ruiz.

The other fighter that they have in common is Bruno. Tyson stopped him in 5 & 3, Lewis needed 7 rounds. To be fair though, Lewis basically stopped Bruno with the first power punch he landed, Tyson didn't.


And why was 210lb Foreman the biggest puncher of the 90's?
Because he couldn't knock glass jaw Morrison out or even down in 12 rounds? Because he knocked Moorer (another glass jaw) out after 9 rounds? Because he couldnt stop Stewart (stopped by Tyson and Holyfield), Schulz or Briggs?
That's a ridiculous claim. And since when is Foreman 210lb? He was 250+ lb in the 90's and 217 at lowest in the 70's at his peak.

[Malph]

You cannot measure punching power by trying to guess it by who did what to who (though that can give you some clues). There are too many variables to consider. To really judge it, you would have to have some sort of device that could measure the power. I don't think it exists as no one has been able to figure out how to measure it accurately. The old formula power = mass x velocity-squared of some-such is flawed as well.
There are plenty of speedy guys out there (Paulie Malinaggi ) with no power whatsoever. There are also fairly slow guys with a seemingly a lot of power. Clearly mass has something to do with it...but from a scientific perspectvie, I am not sure anyone has figured out to model "punching power" and cannot therefore measure it. The same phenonon exists in trying to measure the stopping power of various firearms projectiles. A lot of smart people have tried to come up with way to measure this but there is no concensus over how to do it and thus no agreement on which gun has the most stopping power. Same with boxing.

[macp]

In 1950 Bob Feller, of the Cleveland Indians, was clocked at 100 MPH. In 1941 Lefty Grove was said to have thrown 99 to 101 MPH consistantly. In the 80's Nolan Ryan waa clocked at 104 MPH.
There was also a relief pitcher for the Yankees, Ryne Duran, who constantly threw 98 to 100MPH and all he had was that fast ball. He was the best relief pitcher in the game then and the reason he was so effective with only a fast ball is he was 90 percent blind. He didn't know who was at bat until the announcer called out his name. He led the league with hit batters and they were petrified of him. His era in 1953 was .080.
There were guys in the past that threw as hard as they do today.
you mentioned 4 pitchers. there are what, 30 teams now? how many teams d'ya think have 4 pitchers on their own team that can throw over 90? and im just talking about set-up men, and minor leaguers.

Face it, athletes are bigger, stronger, and faster now, boxers are no exception. this is just natural evolution. people are how many inches taller on average now compared to 50 years ago? how much has life expectancy increased? boxing does not defy science and fact.

[Butch Coolidge]

Louis Monaco, Jimmy Thunder, David Tua, Earni Shavers, Tony Halme, Ron Lyle show that punching power alone isn't a guarentee of success.