Willie Pep's style in his own words

[Guru_Too_You]

"My fight style is 'He who hits and runs away lives to fight another day'. And thats what I did for 29 years. I tried to hit and get away. And I did. I got away with it'"

-ESPN Classic Documentary


Now try and tell me that Pep wouldnt be labeled a runner by all of you Floyd, Spinks, Dirrell detractors.

[Imperial1]

If mssg boards were around when he fought you know dam well they would ..

[Ramshall1]

sometimes people have the notion that any athlete from generations ago needs to be worshiped, its nostalgia for the sake of nostalgia sometimes.

[Guru_Too_You]

sometimes people have the notion that any athlete from generations ago needs to be worshiped, its nostalgia for the sake of nostalgia sometimes.
Tell that to EVERY boxing writer in the history of the sport.

You're pathetic to say the least.

[Guru_Too_You]

If mssg boards were around when he fought you know dam well they would ..
:good

[acb]

Yea he also fought, what, over 200 fights over 30 years. Different eras. Less money paid to fighters. Greater need to maintain longevity because the lower pay scale required you to be in the ring several times a year.

[TroubleLurks]

"My fight style is 'He who hits and runs away lives to fight another day'. And thats what I did for 29 years. I tried to hit and get away. And I did. I got away with it'"

-ESPN Classic Documentary


Now try and tell me that Pep wouldnt be labeled a runner by all of you Floyd, Spinks, Dirrell detractors.Pep, Floyd and Spinks are one thing. But you can't be serious with this Dirrell kid. I never thought any fighter could outrun Spinks until that fight. I was waiting for Cotton to warn him. That was a disgrace to the sport.

[Guru_Too_You]

Yea he also fought, what, over 200 fights over 30 years. Different eras. Less money paid to fighters. Greater need to maintain longevity because the lower pay scale required you to be in the ring several times a year.

Spin, spin, spin.

So fighters today should in a sense, fight with their face because they dont fight as much?

[Guru_Too_You]

Pep, Floyd and Spinks are one thing. But you can't be serious with this Dirrell kid. I never thought any fighter could outrun Spinks until that fight. I was waiting for Cotton to warn him. That was a disgrace to the sport.

I thought there were times when he took a few too many steps, but he fought nicely out of both orthodox and southpaw. He just needs to know that if he jumps WAAAAY out of the pocket, he will get the reactions he's getting from the fans in the ring and on these boards, but if he just steps out of the pocket, he wont be dissed so much.

[acb]

Spin, spin, spin.

So fighters today should in a sense, fight with their face because they dont fight as much?

No, thats a spin. I never said anyone should fight with their face. The quote you posted is a window into the mentality of Pep, and Im simply stating legitimate reasons for him having that mentality.

[Guru_Too_You]

No, thats a spin. I never said anyone should fight with their face. The quote you posted is a window into the mentality of Pep, and Im simply stating legitimate reasons for him having that mentality.

Fair enough.

[TroubleLurks]

I thought there were times when he took a few too many steps, but he fought nicely out of both orthodox and southpaw. He just needs to know that if he jumps WAAAAY out of the pocket, he will get the reactions he's getting from the fans in the ring and on these boards, but if he just steps out of the pocket, he wont be dissed so much.Agreed. He has obviously got some skills. Maybe his chin is suspect? I don't know anything about him but that was a bad first impression to make on HBO.

[Ramshall1]

Tell that to EVERY boxing writer in the history of the sport.

You're pathetic to say the least.

Nostalgia, it happens in every sport. Nothing new.

Merchant said of Benny Leonard - he used to brag about going through an entire match without messing up his hair - arent we past that? I dont want to see fighters whou are worried about messing up their hair.

[Guru_Too_You]

Agreed. He has obviously got some skills. Maybe his chin is suspect? I don't know anything about him but that was a bad first impression to make on HBO.

Naw, I just think thats his style. Ali is his all-time hero, and he's met him a bunch of times and whatnot.

His style is exactly what Cassius' was when he was still Clay, but Dirrell just doesnt look to have the power yet. That or after TWELVE fights, he just hasnt learned how to harness it yet.

[pryorgatti]

Why are you insulting Pep? A thread with Mayweather, Spinks as if they were in the same league as Pep. Please stop it.

[Guru_Too_You]

Nostalgia, it happens in every sport. Nothing new.

Merchant said of Benny Leonard - he used to brag about going through an entire match without messing up his hair - arent we past that? I dont want to see fighters whou are worried about messing up their hair.

Yeah its because he was ACTUALLY worried about messing up his hair and had nothing to do with how easily he won the bout. Man you are just hating to hate.

And theres a reason for the nostalgia surrounding fighters like Leonard and Pep, there two of the top 20 fighters ever to lace up a pair of gloves and I dare you to find an ACCOMPLISHED writer who will say otherwise.

[TroubleLurks]

Naw, I just think thats his style. Ali is his all-time hero, and he's met him a bunch of times and whatnot.

His style is exactly what Cassius' was when he was still Clay, but Dirrell just doesnt look to have the power yet. That or after TWELVE fights, he just hasnt learned how to harness it yet.So you think HBO will have him back on anytime soon? I sure don't think so. Maybe if he racks up some wins and gets to 20+ and 0. Even then I bet we don't see him again for a while.

[Ramshall1]

Yeah its because he was ACTUALLY worried about messing up his hair and had nothing to do with how easily he won the bout. Man you are just hating to hate.

And theres a reason for the nostalgia surrounding fighters like Leonard and Pep, there two of the top 20 fighters ever to lace up a pair of gloves and I dare you to find an ACCOMPLISHED writer who will say otherwise.

the "hair" thing was not really about "hair" but about being too focused on not getting hit and not willing to mix it up. :patsch


Ive never seen Pep fight so I cant speak specifically on him.


To prove my "Nostalgia" point, , , theres this myth of him winning a round without throwing a single punch. Do you actually believe it?

[Ramshall1]

So you think HBO will have him back on anytime soon? I sure don't think so. Maybe if he racks up some wins and gets to 20+ and 0. Even then I bet we don't see him again for a while.

If HBO is stupid enough to put that jackrabbit back on TV, they are responsible for killing the sport.

[ron u.k.]

anyway did pep actually run away? he was just probably putting another slant on his ability not to be hit.never seen enough of him but a lot of good judges say he was the greatest defensive fighter they'd seen and was it something like 1 defeat in his 1st 130 odd fights?well he was obviously doing a very good job of it.

[Vantage_West]

but pep NEVER GOT HIT and made a act becuase of it
floyd came into the ring wearing a gladiator outfit.

pep was using his speed, workrate, size to great effect. anyways pep would go to war look at the saddler pep trilogy great example on how he would go to war when pressed

floyd has all the ability but made himself a hit and run..and i have nothing on the game of floyd he uses his reach quickness and natural boxing style to beat guys if he jabs and runs then let him do it but pep was a different act all together

[Ramshall1]

but pep NEVER GOT HIT and made a act becuase of it
floyd came into the ring wearing a gladiator outfit.

pep was using his speed, workrate, size to great effect. anyways pep would go to war look at the saddler pep trilogy great example on how he would go to war when pressed

floyd has all the ability but made himself a hit and run..and i have nothing on the game of floyd he uses his reach quickness and natural boxing style to beat guys if he jabs and runs then let him do it but pep was a different act all together

good point, and did Pep ever say "Im gonna slice him up, its gonna be brutal, I aint taking no backward step" - then get in the ring and do the opposite.

[Bazooka]

Well in my own words fuck Willie Pep, like I asked you in your other thread, you find a Pep fight that looks exactly like the Dirrell fight and post it, if you cant then STFU, I would be willing to bet that Pep was consistant the entire rounds not like the one jab then running for 2 mins 53 seconds before Dirrell decides to throw another jab Pathetic.

[China_hand_Joe]

Floyd would outclass Pep in a boxing match, I expect.

[boxbible]

Pep would do things like move left, left, left, then take a step to the right and then immediately step in to the left again and crank a hook while the opponent was just changing his direction back from Pep's set up step to the right, and run into the hook.

He would move simply to set you up... not to run away from punches. And when he had you set up, he'd run off a combo, roll under your counter and run off another combo from the side. Things that Floyd could do but chooses not to for whatever reason. Things that, incidentally, Dirrell will probably never learn to do.

[Beebs]

Pep would at least step into the pocket and throw back, while fighting defensively, he at least fought.

[MagnificentMatt]

"My fight style is 'He who hits and runs away lives to fight another day'. And thats what I did for 29 years. I tried to hit and get away. And I did. I got away with it'"

-ESPN Classic Documentary


Now try and tell me that Pep wouldnt be labeled a runner by all of you Floyd, Spinks, Dirrell detractors.

The thing is many boxers dont get respect until they are gone, than everyone gets to missing them, and seeing their fights....Roy Jones is a great example that springs to mind, he was always thrashed in his prime, now look how many Roy Nuthuggers we have, and everyone knows he easily makes the p4p all time list..

[john garfield]

I saw Pep's name and had to read through all the posts. I knew Willie well, from his earliest days. Like Graziano and LaMotta, after they retired, everything was a self-deprecating one-liner. But with Willie, he was like that 24/7 from day one -- anything for a laugh.

So that "fight and run away" quote makes a tasty sound bite, but Willie was much, much more than that. He was an artist -- far from a runner. Four posters on this thread have it right: boxibible, Sammy (his dad), Beebs, and Ron UK.

[Senya13]

When Pep desided to "run" he won the fight against Saddler. When he chose not to run, he lost. It's stupid to change your style to satisfy the fans, and thus abandon the advantages you have and do what the opponent wants you to do instead.

[Theo]

he was a runner, but he also threw punchesin bunches, not one shots ....

ive got pep tapes at home, he was fun to watch imo, mainly cause despite teh running he did throw gret combinations.

/Theo

[McGrain]

"My fight style is 'He who hits and runs away lives to fight another day'. And thats what I did for 29 years. I tried to hit and get away. And I did. I got away with it'"

Now try and tell me that Pep wouldnt be labeled a runner by all of you Floyd, Spinks, Dirrell detractors.


:lol:

[Bad Dog]

:)

[TwoFistedPiston]

Yea he also fought, what, over 200 fights over 30 years. Different eras. Less money paid to fighters. Greater need to maintain longevity because the lower pay scale required you to be in the ring several times a year.
Fucking great avatar :smoke

[john garfield]

"My fight style is 'He who hits and runs away lives to fight another day'. And thats what I did for 29 years. I tried to hit and get away. And I did. I got away with it'"

-ESPN Classic Documentary

Now try and tell me that Pep wouldnt be labeled a runner by all of you Floyd, Spinks, Dirrell detractors.

That's like Marciano diggin' his toe in the ground, G, 'n sayin, "I could punch a little." It's called self-deprecating. The George Clooney's of the world -- the classy guys -- whether in sports or the arts -- all respond that way.

They have nothing to prove.

[Kel1981]

What fight was it where Pep won a round without throwing a single punch?

[Jorodz]

What fight was it where Pep won a round without throwing a single punch?

jackie graves (lots of cats will say it didn't happen but i give him the benefit of the doubt)

also to vantage_wests point, bang on pep FOUGHT when he had do. from all accounts, his performance against saddler in the second fight, calculated elusiveness against a man who simply had his number may be the greatest performance of all time

[sKills]

Tell that to EVERY boxing writer in the history of the sport.

You're pathetic to say the least.

just because a lot of people agree on something doesn't make it true.. look at allt he people saying floyd is afraid of pacquiao when the truth is, pacquiao said himself he's not ready for floyd yet

[Thread Stealer]

What fight was it where Pep won a round without throwing a single punch?

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Could Pep have won a round without landing a single punch?

In Willie Pep's later years, he was known to carry a folded newspaper article in his wallet. The article was about his 1946 fight with Jackie Graves, the one in which Pep allegedly won a round without throwing a punch.

When young reporters sought him out, Pep would produce the article and say, "That's all you need to know about me." Then he'd jam the article back in with the family photos, horse tips and credit cards.

Pep had 229 career wins, boxed 1,956 rounds, won the featherweight championship twice and generally is regarded as one of boxing's best fighters. Yet, Pep wanted to be known for something most boxing people considered a myth.

Some skeptics have alleged that the newspaper article was actually typed by Pep himself; others say it was a copy of a story written by the man responsible for creating the myth, St. Paul sports writer Don Riley.

Riley had been assigned to cover the Pep-Graves fight for Minneapolis radio station WMIN. Before the bout, Riley visited Pep's training camp at Nicollet Park, hoping to soak up some prefight atmosphere.

"Hey, Willie," Riley said. "What round will you knock Graves out?"

Pep laughed. "If he starts hurting me, I'll have to get him out of there. But I never try to knock guys out because it busts up my hands."

Pep fought almost every week in the 1940s. A hand injury meant a missed payday. Pep wondered aloud whether a fighter with "busted-up" hands could fake well enough to fool the judges and the spectators.

"Pick a round," Pep said. "I'll throw punches, but I'll never hit him. Check the scorecards after, and see if the judges fall for it."

Riley picked the third.

The fight itself shook the walls of the Minneapolis Auditorium. Graves sent Pep to the canvas twice; Pep dropped Graves nine times, winning by a TKO in the eighth round.

The third round, though, has been a point of contention for years. Riley insists that Pep swept the scorecards without making any contact.

"It was an amazing display of defensive boxing skill so adroit, so cunning, so subtle that the roaring crowd did not notice Pep's tactics were completely without offense," Riley would write many years later.

Even skeptics agreed that if anyone could pull off such a stunt, it would be Pep.

In 2003, the tale began to split at the seams. CyberBoxingZone.com published a story on Graves by Minnesota writer Jake Wegner that included a reprint of the original ringside report filed by Joe Hennessy of the St. Paul Pioneer Press. Of special interest was Hennessy's description of the third round.

"A clicker couldn't count the blows," Hennessy wrote. "Pep punched Jack into the ropes as the most even round of the evening ended."

Wegner's find seemed to prove that Riley's story was a fable. Still, not everyone buys Hennessy's report.

"I give Willie Pep the benefit of the doubt," said Bert Sugar, suggesting that a legend can be as fragile as the language that preserves it.

"Instead of saying Pep won a round without throwing a punch, say he won a round without landing one. There's a difference," Sugar said. "Besides, sports writers in those days wrote whatever the hell they wanted."

Fight coverage could be slipshod in 1946. For instance, the UPI report of the bout had Graves knocking Pep down four times, but other reports have Pep down twice. Meanwhile, The Associated Press' account of the fight does not mention Graves knocking Pep down at all.

With such uneven coverage, can Hennessy's report be accepted as gospel?

Riley quickly dismissed Hennessy as a competent witness under the circumstances.

"Joe Hennessy was a beautiful guy, but if you weren't clued in, you wouldn't realize Pep's punches were all feints," Riley said.

Hennessy, who died a few years ago, eventually was fired by the Pioneer Press for being, among other things, unreliable.

"He eventually became an outstanding editor at the Star," Riley said. "But in '46, he was not at his best."

"He was the typical reporter from that era," recalled Ron Schara, a columnist for the Minneapolis Star Tribune. "I remember him with his bowtie and a cigar, banging the keys, pressured by deadlines. He came from the old school where the quality of a story varied depending on the number of cocktails he'd had. Joe had his share of those. By the time I knew him his drinking days were long over, but he'd had quite a colorful past."

Not everyone takes Riley's word as gospel either, however.

"Riley gives a different version of the story every time he tells it," Wegner said. "He gets testy if you push him. Sometimes he just cackles and says, 'Who can remember?"

One of the earliest printed references to the third round and what supposedly happened was in May 1970 when Pep was interviewed by author Peter Heller.

"I jabbed him a few times, but most of the round, I was bobbing and weaving and making him miss," Pep said in that interview.

Pep's words -- "I jabbed him a few times" -- are revealing. Could he have been feinting with those jabs?

"He'd [Pep] spin him around, maybe slap his ears, and then he'd be gone," Riley told ESPN.com. "After the fight, Willie said to me, 'Hey, didn't I do a good job in the third round? I didn't hit your buddy.' Of course, I was looking for it, so I knew what I was seeing. I couldn't say anything over the air, but if you heard the broadcast, I think I said, 'Pep did no damage in that round.'"
When asked why he didn't mention Pep's pantomime right away, Riley said,

"I was busy writing and doing broadcasts. It just slipped my mind."

A popular theory among St. Paul's fight scene is that Pep and Riley concocted the story together. Because there was no footage of the fight, it would be their word against everyone else's.

"Why would I make up a story?" Riley said in his defense. "What would I have to gain? I covered 36 fights, and Pep left a big impression on me. That's all."

Riley believes the story got out in 1968.

"We had a reunion breakfast at the Hilton hotel," Riley said. "Jackie [Graves] and Willie were there. I reminded Willie of the third round. Jackie didn't know what we were talking about, so we told him. Jackie said, 'Willie, if you could win a round without landing a punch, why didn't you do that for the entire fight? You could've won going away, without beating the hell out of me!'"

The story gathered momentum, culminating when acclaimed boxing writer Red Smith recounted it in a 1975 New York Times column. According to Riley, "Willie promoted it some himself."

Wegner told ESPN.com, "I like Riley, but I don't believe Riley. You don't keep a story like that on the back burner for 25 years." Wegner has discussed
Riley's story with more than a dozen eyewitnesses. "They all say it's a crock. Maybe Riley and Pep had a conversation before the fight, but by all accounts, Pep was fighting in the third round, not hiding behind the referee."
Wegner's arguments sound valid. But Riley sounds convincing, too.

Could they both be right?

There is a possibility that Pep did turn the trick but did so against another fighter. Pep fought in Minneapolis three times in 1946. Along with beating Graves, he won easy decisions over journeymen Paulie Jackson and Jimmy Joyce.

"I remember winning a round without throwing a punch. I did do that, I think, to Jackie Graves," Pep said during the 1970 Heller interview in which he sounded unsure that Graves was the opponent.

Perhaps as Riley and Pep reminisced, they mistakenly attached Graves' name to the story. It's not unusual for fighters -- and writers -- to confuse names. Graves always held Pep in high regard, but when he was interviewed in 2003, he remembered very little about the fight.

By the 1970s and '80s, Pep was under fire because of his gambling habit.

A Willie Pep biopic starring teen idol Frankie Avalon was discussed, but it never happened. A book Pep wrote didn't sell. He married a sixth time. For a while, he acted as Connecticut's deputy boxing commissioner, and he eventually did well on the personal appearance circuit, earning money just by being Willie Pep.

But whether he was telling jokes to a gathering of fans, or standing before a judge and jury, the myth of the Graves fight remained in Pep's wallet, never too far out of reach.

[ripcity]

Hit and don't get hit. That's what your suposed to do in boxing.

[Pusnuts]

Nostalgia, it happens in every sport. Nothing new.

Merchant said of Benny Leonard - he used to brag about going through an entire match without messing up his hair - arent we past that? I dont want to see fighters whou are worried about messing up their hair.

Actually that illustrates the difference to me between modern internet fans and most everything before that.

Before fans would be more likely to take the fighter's style and character as they were, Benny Leonard was a champion prizefighter at the end of day and the hair thing just adds to his charm for many, now too many internet fans try and foist characteristics on them, like they are trying to live through them, its a bit pathetic IMO

Not saying I would have wanted to watch every boxer run, but there were plenty of bloodNguts warriors then and the different styles are what makes boxing great IMO.

[ballznall]

I saw Pep's name and had to read through all the posts. I knew Willie well, from his earliest days. Like Graziano and LaMotta, after they retired, everything was a self-deprecating one-liner. But with Willie, he was like that 24/7 from day one -- anything for a laugh.

So that "fight and run away" quote makes a tasty sound bite, but Willie was much, much more than that. He was an artist -- far from a runner. Four posters on this thread have it right: boxibible, Sammy (his dad), Beebs, and Ron UK.
..........willie pep ...... poetry in motion ....ATG top 10 fighter ...

[timmyjames]

Hit and don't get hit. That's what your suposed to do in boxing.

make sense to me, but some would have you believe boxing is about walking in with your chin in the air..and taking 3 punches to throw one

[Godfather]

To be fair he fought Sandy Saddler 4 times. Floyd would have retired 4 times to avoid facing Saddler

[PIPO23]

To be fair he fought Sandy Saddler 4 times. Floyd would have retired 4 times to avoid facing Saddler

Elorde fought him toe-to-toe..