History Lesson: Kid Gavilan

[Sweet Pea]

What an absolutely brilliant, innovative, improvisational fighter. This is the guy who gave Sugar Ray Robinson the two hardest fights of his career and was arguably robbed according to fan reactions after the first bout. I've still never seen more varied, unorthodox, yet effective punches in a fighter's arsenal. He could throw accurate, effective bolos and looping punches from different angles. He could box, brawl, and improvise with the best ever at the weight. He had a fantastic blend of both power and finesse, sometimes all at once. A truly fluid, versatile fighter. Granite chin as well. I rate him in my top 5 WW's(arguably just behind Robinson or Griffith) and I rate him 26th all time P4P.

Watch his fights with Johnny Bratton and Gil Turner on Youtube.

[Beebs]

Need more of these on here, good work

[SugarShane_24]

The only thing he lacked was a KO punch. Which evidently was never really necessary.


And this is a guy who started out at 118. Continually moving up to 147.


A true great fighter. And an excellent showman too.

[Carlos Primera]

i've only read stuff about gavilan. never seen hin fight. how does he rank h2h wise in WW?

[Sweet Pea]

He'd be a great addition to the mix at welterweight these days. How does everyone see him doing against these guys:

Cotto

Margarito

Mayweather

Leonard

Duran

BenitezI think Benitez style-wise could have a pretty good style to beat him. I think a fight with Duran would be unbelievable. Seriously, what an amazing blend of power, skill, and versatility.

[Sweet Pea]

i've only read stuff about gavilan. never seen hin fight. how does he rank h2h wise in WW?As high as he rates all time probably. He rates top 5 in both greatness and head to head categories in arguably the most stacked division ever.

Watch those two fights I requested on Youtube, the entire fights. He was really Ray Leonard before Ray Leonard. Leonard's style more closely mirrored Gavilan's at times than Robinson's.

[brooklyn1550]

Gavilan was a fighter than could literally do it all. He could be very cerebral, fighting behind a jab picking his shots, sometimes he would let it all out and trade shots, and other times he would apply intelligent pressure, but not in the manner of an ordinary, slow methodical pressure fighter. He was so smooth and quick. I've got to see more footage on him. His profile on the Latin Legends DVD was great.

How do you see Gavilan/Napoles going?

[Illmatic]

a beautiful boxer to watch...and SRR first beat him while a contender at 147 right?

Isnt it incredible that BEFORE SRR won a championship he beat Gavilan and Armstrong?

[SugarShane_24]

How do you see Gavilan/Napoles going?

If you ask me, I think the only trump card going for Napoles is his power. But since Gavilan wasn't stopped his entire career, it's a moot point.

Gavilan by UD.


I think another wonderful match-up is Gavilan vs. Luis Rodriguez.

[Sweet Pea]

a beautiful boxer to watch...and SRR first beat him while a contender at 147 right?

Isnt it incredible that BEFORE SRR won a championship he beat Gavilan and Armstrong?He had already won the title by that point, and Armstrong was pretty much shot, but still, good win with Armstrong and great win against Gavilan.

If there were a couple fights on film I'd like to see it would be their two matchups. Unfortunately they're not on film.

[brooklyn1550]

If you ask me, I think the only trump card going for Napoles is his power. But since Gavilan wasn't stopped his entire career, it's a moot point.

Gavilan by UD.

I'd take Gavilan by UD as well. There's always the potential for a stoppage on cuts, too.

[brooklyn1550]

I've been told to watch his fight against Abdeslan Ben Buker. Buker was a guy with only a few fights, but supposedly Gavilan was at his athletic peak here and it showed.

[Sweet Pea]

If you ask me, I think the only trump card going for Napoles is his power. But since Gavilan wasn't stopped his entire career, it's a moot point.

Gavilan by UD.


I think another wonderful match-up is Gavilan vs. Luis Rodriguez.I think you underrate Napoles greatly if you think all Napoles has going for him is power. I love Gavilan, but I'm an even bigger Napoles fan, and I'll tell you the unbiased truth about both. Napoles was even slicker than Gavilan, smoother in an offensive sense and slicker in a defensive sense. Gavilan was more offense, but both had great chins and great combinations of power and finesse to their game. They rate right there with each other in both categories though. I'd give Gavilan a better chance(and a pretty good one at that) of beating Leonard than Napoles due to Napoles's tendancy to cut. But as far as head to head between Napoles and Gavilan, I might give it to Napoles on the basis that he was an even more fluid, smooth boxer than Gavilan.

[Sweet Pea]

I've been told to watch his fight against Abdeslan Ben Buker. Buker was a guy with only a few fights, but supposedly Gavilan was at his athletic peak here and it showed.I'll have to get my hands on it. I'll go out on a limb and say Raging B(_)LL has it in his collection. That limb I'm on is more like a second tree branching off.

[SugarShane_24]

I think you underrate Napoles greatly if you think all Napoles has going for him is power. I love Gavilan, but I'm an even bigger Napoles fan, and I'll tell you the unbiased truth about both. Napoles was even slicker than Gavilan, smoother in an offensive sense and slicker in a defensive sense. Gavilan was more offense, but both had great chins and great combinations of power and finesse to their game. They rate right there with each other in both categories though. I'd give Gavilan a better chance(and a pretty good one at that) of beating Leonard than Napoles due to Napoles's tendancy to cut. But as far as head to head between Napoles and Gavilan, I might give it to Napoles on the basis that he was an even more fluid, smooth boxer than Gavilan.

No bro, what i mean is, IMO gavilan was better in every category (boxing, footwork etc) and the only thing where Napoles has an edge is power. I'm not underestimating Napoles. I know what he's capable of. wins over Curtis Cokes and Armando Muniz proves that(and why the nickname "mantequila" stuck to him). It's just that for me, Gavilan has an edge overall.

[brooklyn1550]

No bro, what i mean is, IMO gavilan was better in every category (boxing, footwork etc) and the only thing where Napoles has an edge is power. I'm not underestimating Napoles. I know what he's capable of. wins over Curtis Cokes and Armando Muniz proves that(and why the nickname "mantequila" stuck to him). It's just that for me, Gavilan has an edge overall.

With all due respect, I'd give Napoles an edge in defense.

[Sweet Pea]

No bro, what i mean is, IMO gavilan was better in every category (boxing, footwork etc) and the only thing where Napoles has an edge is power. I'm not underestimating Napoles. I know what he's capable of. wins over Curtis Cokes and Armando Muniz proves that(and why the nickname "mantequila" stuck to him). It's just that for me, Gavilan has an edge overall.I think you need to refresh your memory and hit the tapes again if you think Gavilan had better footwork than Napoles. Napoles had some of the best, most balanced footwork I've ever seen, and his ability to change up the pace on the drop of a dime was great to watch.

Also, while Gavilan had a nice jab, Napoles had a more accurate and more efficient one, because he wouldn't get as easily tagged in return due to his slickness on defense. He had the better defense than Gavilan as well.

[SugarShane_24]

I think you need to refresh your memory and hit the tapes again if you think Gavilan had better footwork than Napoles. Napoles had some of the best, most balanced footwork I've ever seen, and his ability to change up the pace on the drop of a dime was great to watch.

Also, while Gavilan had a nice jab, Napoles had a more accurate and more efficient one, because he wouldn't get as easily tagged in return due to his slickness on defense. He had the better defense than Gavilan as well.


Well, we all have our opinions. It's Gavilan on my side, Napoles in yours. :D

[acb]

For fuck sake I was going to stay away from the forum for a while and this thread brought me right back in. Gavilan is my favorite fighter bar none. A few years back I met a Cuban family in Miami's Calle Ocho who gifted me with a picture taken with Gavilan, their father, and then presidential candidate Eduardo Chibas in the "El Floridita" night club in Havana, year 1951. My interest in Gavilan began there and continues today.

I agree with everything you say Pea, especially about his versatility and fluidity, not only in movement but in ring versatility. The four fights I have (Buker, Turner, Bratton II, Janiro II) showcase his ability to play the boxer, the preasure fighter, and the brawler- and to move fluidly between these styles depending on what a fight or an opponent dictated.

His fight with Buker is a great one to see. Its a young and impressive Gavilan.

[jaycuban]

he was great, one of the greates cuban fighters ever, up there with Kid Chocolate.

[teeto]

What an absolutely brilliant, innovative, improvisational fighter. This is the guy who gave Sugar Ray Robinson the two hardest fights of his career and was arguably robbed according to fan reactions after the first bout. I've still never seen more varied, unorthodox, yet effective punches in a fighter's arsenal. He could throw accurate, effective bolos and looping punches from different angles. He could box, brawl, and improvise with the best ever at the weight. He had a fantastic blend of both power and finesse, sometimes all at once. A truly fluid, versatile fighter. Granite chin as well. I rate him in my top 5 WW's(arguably just behind Robinson or Griffith) and I rate him 26th all time P4P.

Watch his fights with Johnny Bratton and Gil Turner on Youtube.
I got him above Griffith personally, everythin' u said about him was right

[teeto]

Oscar De La Hoya is a very poor man's Gavilan imo, even in his prime

[acb]

he was great, one of the greates cuban fighters ever, up there with Kid Chocolate.

Kid Chocolate was another great. I saw an interview with him recently that I want to post soon.

[acb]

This is the interview. It was his last. Its in Spanish and the audio is bad but its interesting anyways. I will do a better translation later, but for the most part he is talking about his career, his winning belts, etc. He has a great memory for dates, the round that he KO'd this fighter or that fighter- even at this age, amazing really.

He is also asked who was his hardest fight- his response is Jacky Berg from England, and Tony Canzoneri. Asked who the toughest Cuban he ever fought was, he responds Carlito Blanco and Johnny Cruz.

p6_jhae6sSw

[booradley]

I have a friend in his mid 80's who is one of my best boxing buddies. This guy saw Marciano, Robinson, and many other legends live. He talks about Kid Gavilin a lot; he thinks very highly of him.

[acb]

I have a friend in his mid 80's who is one of my best boxing buddies. This guy saw Marciano, Robinson, and many other legends live. He talks about Kid Gavilin a lot; he thinks very highly of him.

I would also argue that what in on youtube is not the best Gavilan (although the fights Pea mentioned in the beggining of the thread are better than what was on youtube of him before).

[Sweet Pea]

I would also argue that what in on youtube is not the best Gavilan (although the fights Pea mentioned in the beggining of the thread are better than what was on youtube of him before).Would you say he looked better against Buker than the fights I mentioned?

And just so everyone knows, I was blazed off my mind when I made this thread. Damn I can write pretty good when high.

[acb]

Would you say he looked better against Buker than the fights I mentioned?

And just so everyone knows, I was blazed off my mind when I made this thread. Damn I can write pretty good when high.

He looks younger and fresher in the Buker fight. Maybe not as refined, yet his reflexes are faster and he is obviously a younger man. Raging B(_)ll when he sent it to me, described Gavilan as being in his absolute prime or something to that effect.

In the Turner fight, he faces a fighter in his own mold. SRL made an anology to his match with Benitez when he entered the ring to see what he called a mirror image of himself.

The Janiro fight is a good one as well, with Gavilan playing more of the boxer role.

By the way, I'm thinking of ordering some Napoles. Your high on him and from what I have seen he was great. I watched the Monzon fight last night, he was clearly outsized.

[onourway]

Gavilan had some skinny ass legs, no wonder he had no power.

[Sweet Pea]

He looks younger and fresher in the Buker fight. Maybe not as refined, yet his reflexes are faster and he is obviously a younger man. Raging B(_)ll when he sent it to me, described Gavilan as being in his absolute prime or something to that effect.

In the Turner fight, he faces a fighter in his own mold. SRL made an anology to his match with Benitez when he entered the ring to see what he called a mirror image of himself.

The Janiro fight is a good one as well, with Gavilan playing more of the boxer role.

By the way, I'm thinking of ordering some Napoles. Your high on him and from what I have seen he was great. I watched the Monzon fight last night, he was clearly outsized.I don't care to watch his MW fights with guys like Monzon. He's nowhere near his best and far too outsized, yet holds his own for a while anyway. From 135-147 is where he was a true beast. His fights with Cokes display his full ability at WW, as well as his fight with Griffith, though I've not seen it and Griffith was said to not be at his best. He's said to be even better at LW and JWW though.

[acb]

I don't care to watch his MW fights with guys like Monzon. He's nowhere near his best and far too outsized, yet holds his own for a while anyway. From 135-147 is where he was a true beast. His fights with Cokes display his full ability at WW, as well as his fight with Griffith, though I've not seen it and Griffith was said to not be at his best. He's said to be even better at LW and JWW though.

Is the Cokes fight on utube?

[Sweet Pea]

Gavilan had some skinny ass legs, no wonder he had no power.He didn't have "no power" you muppet, he just wasn't a power puncher. He could bang away with the best of them. Watch his stoppage of Turner and tell me he had no power.

[Sweet Pea]

Is the Cokes fight on utube?A highlight of it is up there, but he had two fights with him, and I've seen both on another site. Still, the footage on Youtube will suffice. Shows his fluidity, footwork, and ability to change up the pace.

[onourway]

143 fights, 28 KO's?

Malignaggi would scoff at that record.

[brooklyn1550]

143 fights, 28 KO's?

Malignaggi would scoff at that record.

Gavilan wasn't a big puncher, but don't let his record fool you, he could punch. Much more so than the completely featherfisted Malignaggi.

[acb]

He didn't have "no power" you muppet, he just wasn't a power puncher. He could bang away with the best of them. Watch his stoppage of Turner and tell me he had no power.

I have the Turner fight on right now. The finaly in the fight is just plain brutal.

In a sense, this fight reminds me of Trinidad vs Vargas. Like Turner, Vargas was similar to Trinidad in many ways and was game as could be- but just not ready for a fight of that maginitude. He was competitive, but the long term effect of the fight was much more telling on the career of Vargas.

From what I understand, Turner would never go on to fight for a championship again.

[McGrain]

Hearns
Burley
Robinson (obvioulsy)
Williams
Leonard
Walker

Should all be favoured over him in my view.

I think that

Britton
McLarnin
Loi
Napoles
Duran
Ross

Are close to 50/50 fights, though I favour Kid in all of these with a gun to my head.

Griffith
Rodriguez
Bassilo
Benitez
DeLaHoya
Trinidad
Walcott
Whitaker
Lewis

Are very great fighters who he should be favoured over.

One of the greatest chins of all time, unquestionably.

Are

[McGrain]

He didn't have "no power" you muppet, he just wasn't a power puncher. He could bang away with the best of them. Watch his stoppage of Turner and tell me he had no power.


I think he was a stinging puncher. Nobody would be walking through him at WW. But you could see why he is not to be considered alongside MW greats like some of these other great WW's, perhaps primarily because of the power issue.

[acb]

McGrain do you have footage of Burley? I would very much like to see a full match, although I have seen some limited stuff on Utube.

[McGrain]

McGrain do you have footage of Burley? I would very much like to see a full match, although I have seen some limited stuff on Utube.

I have the Oakland Billy Smith fight. And that is it! Splendid stuff though. Smith was seen as a real banger at 175, but Burley is the puncher in that fight.

Last time I checked, which was some time ago, the whole fight was on YouTube, in two parts?

[acb]

Perfect, here is part II

-v1Ct2DFRQQ

[Sweet Pea]

Hearns
Burley
Robinson (obvioulsy)
Williams
Leonard
Walker

Should all be favoured over him in my view.
Williams? Which Williams would that be? Paul?

I'll take him over Walker as well. I give him a decent chance against Leonard, and I think a matchup with Burley would be very interesting, but I don't see why I'd outright favor Burley.


I think that

Britton
McLarnin
Loi
Napoles
Duran
Ross

Are close to 50/50 fights, though I favour Kid in all of these with a gun to my head.
Duran is 50/50, very close fight. I'd favor him at 147 against all of the others aside from Napoles.


Griffith
Rodriguez
Bassilo
Benitez
DeLaHoya
Trinidad
Walcott
Whitaker
Lewis

Are very great fighters who he should be favoured over.
You'd favor him outright over Griffith? Big call there, that fight is very tough for me. I'll take him over Rodriguez in a very interesting styles matchup. They were both skilled on the inside with similar looping body punches. Benitez is a tough matchup for him. Whitaker would be a very interesting matchup, to see if he could keep Gavilan at bay.

[McGrain]

Williams? Which Williams would that be? Paul?

Holman. Think about it now. Quick, slick, not interested in a stoppage or in bullying his man (which is not possible) beautiful positioning and world class punch resistance has kept him out of trouble against punchers all his career.

I'll take him over Walker as well.

Murderous body puncher, extremely busy, impossible to discourage...what I've looked for in picking out fighters are guys who do what they do better than anyone ever did it at the weight. If there is a "kryptonite" it is probably incredible speed, but even that is not to be counted upon entirely when you are considering a fighter of such variety.

How do you see Kid dealing with Walker's brand of violence?

I give him a decent chance against Leonard, and I think a matchup with Burley would be very interesting, but I don't see why I'd outright favor Burley.

Burley is to be favoured because of his evasivness, but also becuase of his enormous strength. Plus, I won't rule out power. A guy who can stop a HW 220lb HW, however limited, whilst weighing 150, is special enough in this regard to trouble even Kid at the WW limit. This is a fight where Burley's reach is also a very, very serious advantage. He was a wonderful timer of a man, and Kid is going to have to find some way of closing the distance without getting hurt. Don't bet on it.

Duran is 50/50, very close fight. I'd favor him at 147 against all of the others aside from Napoles.

Do you see any similairities between Gavilan's style and Loi's? I only say so because I think they are both anathema to brawlers, which seems interesting to me. You would need a near perfect brawler to trouble either of them. In fact, at the weight, maybe only Walker could do it.

You'd favor him outright over Griffith? Big call there, that fight is very tough for me. I'll take him over Rodriguez in a very interesting styles matchup. They were both skilled on the inside with similar looping body punches. Benitez is a tough matchup for him. Whitaker would be a very interesting matchup, to see if he could keep Gavilan at bay.

Whitaker is obviously of most interest to you. I think that he could, actually, keep Kid off with genius for big chunks of a match for the ages, BUT, he would tend to lose rounds where he failed to do so, without neccesarily winning the rounds where the opposite is true. Aggression should be scored.

Griffith - interesting. You think Emile has a better chance to out muscle/punch Kid than Walker does? You SEEN the Scmeling fight (yes I know he wasn't a WW for that one)?

[McGrain]

Perfect, here is part II

-v1Ct2DFRQQ

I love this. Lead left uppercuts, lead rights, lead left hooks, no guard against one of the biggest punchers at 175 - and the man's best weight is 147.

[acb]

I love this. Lead left uppercuts, lead rights, lead left hooks, no guard against one of the biggest punchers at 175 - and the man's best weight is 147.
I'm watching this footage and thinking of a comparison to make... keep in mind I have seen limited Burley but the guy I'm thinking is Roy Jones. The distance, reflexes, unorthodox lead punches. He doesn't seem to have the speed of foot, yet his head movement is better than Jones. I like his right hand to the body, perfectly placed and done only so often as to not be countered. This is impressive footage.

There used to be a boxing show hosted by Johnny Ortiz until about 2003 in L.A... the guy was a nut for Burley.

[Sweet Pea]

Holman. Think about it now. Quick, slick, not interested in a stoppage or in bullying his man (which is not possible) beautiful positioning and world class punch resistance has kept him out of trouble against punchers all his career.Holman is one I know quite a bit about, but have never seen fight. What footage of the man do you have? And do you think he was good enough at WW to beat an ATG, despite his prime being as a MW?


Murderous body puncher, extremely busy, impossible to discourage...what I've looked for in picking out fighters are guys who do what they do better than anyone ever did it at the weight. If there is a "kryptonite" it is probably incredible speed, but even that is not to be counted upon entirely when you are considering a fighter of such variety.

How do you see Kid dealing with Walker's brand of violence?
As you allude to later, Gavilan was hell for pressure fighters. I think his skill in close and in the clinch would be hell for pretty much any pressure fighter as well. Walker had trouble with a guy like Greb doing similar clinching tactics as well, and Gavilan had the ability to outbox him on the outside as Greb did as well. Another thing, Walker was probably at his best at MW, not WW. I don't think Walker would just be able to use strength and pressure to overwhelm Gavilan(noone at the weight would).


Burley is to be favoured because of his evasivness, but also becuase of his enormous strength. Plus, I won't rule out power. A guy who can stop a HW 220lb HW, however limited, whilst weighing 150, is special enough in this regard to trouble even Kid at the WW limit. This is a fight where Burley's reach is also a very, very serious advantage. He was a wonderful timer of a man, and Kid is going to have to find some way of closing the distance without getting hurt. Don't bet on it.
I'd put pretty decent money on it. Gavilan had long limbs as well, though I'm a little hazy off the top of the head as to the reach of either fighter. I think Burley could possibly beat him for the reasons you
mentioned, but I don't think he'd be hurting him much.


Do you see any similairities between Gavilan's style and Loi's? I only say so because I think they are both anathema to brawlers, which seems interesting to me. You would need a near perfect brawler to trouble either of them. In fact, at the weight, maybe only Walker could do it.
From what I understand of Loi, I don't imagine him to be much like Gavilan.


Whitaker is obviously of most interest to you. I think that he could, actually, keep Kid off with genius for big chunks of a match for the ages, BUT, he would tend to lose rounds where he failed to do so, without neccesarily winning the rounds where the opposite is true. Aggression should be scored.
I hear you, some would say the bout would go something like Gavilan's with Graham, but I think Whitaker would box more off the backfoot to give him a better chance of winning.


Griffith - interesting. You think Emile has a better chance to out muscle/punch Kid than Walker does? You SEEN the Scmeling fight (yes I know he wasn't a WW for that one)?
Not neccessarily, I just consider Griffith to be one of the most versatile ever at the weight, from his piston jab and boxing skill to his ability to pressure, go to the body, and keep the fight at his pace. At his best anyway.

Yes, I've seen Schmeling and Walker, but again, I don't think Griffith was as limited as Walker at WW, he was a better boxer and a bit more versatile.

[acb]

I'm watching this footage and thinking of a comparison to make... keep in mind I have seen limited Burley but the guy I'm thinking is Roy Jones. The distance, reflexes, unorthodox lead punches. He doesn't seem to have the speed of foot, yet his head movement is better than Jones. I like his right hand to the body, perfectly placed and done only so often as to not be countered. This is impressive footage.

There used to be a boxing show hosted by Johnny Ortiz until about 2003 in L.A... the guy was a nut for Burley.

Just reading about him online now- this comparison to RJJ has already been made.

Too bad no other footage exists of him in full form.

[Sweet Pea]

Just reading about him online now- this comparison to RJJ has already been made.

Too bad no other footage exists of him in full form.I have his full fight with Archie Moore, I'm just holding it to piss off McGrain.

[McGrain]

I'm watching this footage and thinking of a comparison to make... keep in mind I have seen limited Burley but the guy I'm thinking is Roy Jones. The distance, reflexes, unorthodox lead punches. He doesn't seem to have the speed of foot, yet his head movement is better than Jones. I like his right hand to the body, perfectly placed and done only so often as to not be countered. This is impressive footage.

Tell you what buddy, that's very, very interesting, because the comparison has been drawn by several people, including the one or two who saw both first hand. Very very interesting. For me, not so much, though there are some similairities and you've done a great job of pointing those out. Keep in mind, too, that Burley is past his very best here - nice observation on the body shot, how about those one-two's. Monster double, if the jab lands the right lands. I love his one two.

There are similarities with Hopkins, too, in my view, the way he is able to control distance even though he has no reach advantage, gliding in and then out.

There used to be a boxing show hosted by Johnny Ortiz until about 2003 in L.A... the guy was a nut for Burley.

That, I did not know.

[McGrain]

Holman is one I know quite a bit about, but have never seen fight. What footage of the man do you have?

Alas, to my knowledge, none exsists.

And do you think he was good enough at WW to beat an ATG, despite his prime being as a MW?

You've said this before, but I don't think that his prime was at MW. But it does depend upon how you weigh these things. An example - in 1939 Williams outpointed Burley (despite being dropped for multiple counts) over the 15 round distance weighing 148lbs. I'm quite happy to appraise this result (which is a very complicated one) in deciphering the Welterweight version of Williams even though it was an over the limit match. How do you feel about this? From a technical standpoint, Williams is fighting as Middleweight, but you and I both know that 8 minutes of shadowboxing in a robe probably would have dropped the pound without affecting the fighter adversely AND that this pound represents no advantage over a fighter weight 147 in the ring, unless there are weight-making issues.

Of course, Williams has some brilliant wins at 160/158 ish, including over Marshall, Chase, Cocoa Kid, Booker (both Booker and Kid beat him two, I think, though I may be thinking pre-1942 when Williams started to fight more at the bigger weight) and a couple which were technically fought at LHW, too, (not least Bob Sattersfield). But at, or very very close to 147, he has wins over Cocoa Kid, Leto, Burley, Janazzo, Burley, Buffalo, so I am pretty happy that Williams prime was long lasting, and it could actually be argued that it's genesis is at or around the time of the begginings of his monster series with arch-nemisis Cocoa Kid, which was way back in '37, when he was fighting very much as a welter. As an aside, imagine fighting Burley 7 times, and that isn't your principle rivalry? What a career.

As you allude to later, Gavilan was hell for pressure fighters. I think his skill in close and in the clinch would be hell for pretty much any pressure fighter as well. Walker had trouble with a guy like Greb doing similar clinching tactics as well, and Gavilan had the ability to outbox him on the outside as Greb did as well. Another thing, Walker was probably at his best at MW, not WW. I don't think Walker would just be able to use strength and pressure to overwhelm Gavilan(noone at the weight would).

I am interested in the Greb comparison. Greb beat Walker up - beat the shit out of him. Walker was exhausted. But Greb was the bigger man - here, Walker is bigger at the weight, here, Walker is the monster. You say that no-one would be able to pressure and overwhelm Kid, and I think that that is not an unreasonable position. Mine is that no-one could put him under with pressure and strength but Walker.

From what I understand of Loi, I don't imagine him to be much like Gavilan.

Nevertheless, I don't think it would be wisdom to brawl with Loi, or Kid - or Dick Tiger. There is something connecting these three despite their obvious differences. I'm fascinated by the link...

Not neccessarily, I just consider Griffith to be one of the most versatile ever at the weight, from his piston jab and boxing skill to his ability to pressure, go to the body, and keep the fight at his pace. At his best anyway.

My feelings concerning Gavilan is that you have to react to him - it is not wisdom to impose a plan on him regardless of what he does, because he will tend to find a way around the corner on you. So Griffith's adaptability is a virtue - unless he overcooks it. If he can control the pace against Kid, I agree that he would win this fight, but my guess is he could not.

[McGrain]

Just reading about him online now- this comparison to RJJ has already been made.

Nice that you picked it out unaided though!!

[McGrain]

I have his full fight with Archie Moore, I'm just holding it to piss off McGrain.

:twisted:

I would like to see this one ahead of anything, Walker-Greb, Langford ko29 Wills would be in second and third place. Burley BUSTED Moore.