How are guys like gatti and ward...

[thunder06]

looked upon in boxing history? are they entertaining journeyman or guys who gave it their all but could never really make that step up in competition? how do u see them as?

[McGrain]

Limited but very brave. I admire them both and have seen many of their fights but I don't take them seriously in a historical context, you know?

[emanuel_augustus]

Arturo Gatti was a world champion for two years. He fought 7 or so of the most exciting fights of the last 15 years.

Was he Floyd Mayweather or Pea Whitaker? No, assuredly not. But, "limited but brave" guys don't win world championships. Gatti was a B+ level fighter who will go down as the most exciting fighter of his generation. To call him a journeyman is an insult.

[Jack Dempsey]

Gatti is no worse than some of the fighters in the IBHOF, I agree with the above poster, he's B+ but certainly no Journeyman

[fists of fury]

I'd say both are relatively good, but limited fighters who gave us three action-packed fights.
Neither are genuine world-class, despite Gatti winning a belt. These days, any moderately talented fighter can pick up a title. Being a 'world' champion isn't a big deal these days.

Their trilogy was great though, and I don't begrudge either man a cent of their purses for those fights.

[JohnBKelly]

History is weird, some great champs disappear once they retire and some one hit wonders reputations grow far in excess of their achievements. Joe Brown was a great lightweight champ but he doesn't draw many column inches these days. Similarly Benny Leonard, Jack Britton and Jose Napoles are consistently overlooked in favour of fighters from the TV age. Meanwhile for example people wax lyrical about the qualities of fat bums like Tony Tubbs and Greg Page who threw their careers away at the dinner table.

Gatti and Ward were fun to watch but would either man have beaten Joe Brown or Leonard at lightweight or Jack Britton at welterweight? I don't think so.

[McGrain]

"limited but brave" guys don't win world championships..

Happens a lot bro.

Braddock, Bruno...Gatti and Ward of the top of my head.

[Thread Stealer]

Ward: entertaining contender/fringe contender

Gatti: entertaining titlist who was on a higher level than Ward.

Both guys were very tough and entertaining, although their trilogy was overrated.

Gatti will probably be looked upon more favorably not only because he was a better fighter, but due to the HBO hype he got. Other than their trilogy together, Gatti's other exciting fights seem to be remembered more than the other entertaining bouts that Ward was in.

[joe33]

Ward: entertaining contender/fringe contender

Gatti: entertaining titlist who was on a higher level than Ward.

Both guys were very tough and entertaining, although their trilogy was overrated.

Gatti will probably be looked upon more favorably not only because he was a better fighter, but due to the HBO hype he got. Other than their trilogy together, Gatti's other exciting fights seem to be remembered more than the other entertaining bouts that Ward was in.


How was there trilogy over rated then?,most people loved it,it makes the majority of fights look boring,and is still being mentioned a lot a half a decade later,when mot people cant remember fights that happened this year.

[Thread Stealer]

How was there trilogy over rated then?


Because only one of the fights was really that good, or competitive/reasonably close.

most people loved it,it makes the majority of fights look boring,and is still being mentioned a lot a half a decade later,when mot people cant remember fights that happened this year.

Of course, if HBO, ESPN, and other media bring it up all the time, then people are going to remember it.

HBO and ESPN don't repeatedly bring up a superior trilogy like Barrera-Morales or Pacquiao-Morales (both of which had at least 2 excellent, competitive bouts).

The 2nd best fight of the Gatti-Ward trilogy, the 3rd fight, wouldn't even make my top 5 of Gatti fights....or Ward fights. The atmosphere and commentary made the actual fight and competition seem better than it really was.

Basically, the media and The Ring overrate it.

Toney-Jirov was better than the rubber match, and not by a little.

[Beebs]

Oddly similar to Zale and Graziano I think.

[Thread Stealer]

Oddly similar to Zale and Graziano I think.

But Zale is looked upon fairly highly among the middleweight champs. Graziano less so, as the Zale fights were past Tony's prime, and Rocky tended to pick on smaller guys.

[Amsterdam]

For me, two overhyped, glorified journeymen that produced 3 highly overrated fights.

Give me MAB-Morales over that one anyday.

[rekcutnevets]

I see and hear these guys referred to as "b level," "journeymen," "not great," etc.

The above statements may be true for both fighters, but I believe they're on two different levels. The two of them had a nice competative run against each other, especially the first time, and that is why they are mentioned as though they are in the same class.

The truth is, Gatti is a two division champion. Ward was a top notch, one division, contender. Ward may have gone above 140 at times, but 140 is where he was most effective.

Gatti may not be the most dominant champ the world has ever known, but he was still a champion. Ward was effective in his own right, but he never reached world champion stature.

Whatever level Gatti is on, Ward is beneath. You can say a,b, or c level. You can say top notch, not so good, almost there, wish they could've been, or whatever. Gatti is still one notch above.

[mightyd40]

the best answer for me is two guys who make boxing better and more respectable for being a part of its history......sure they werent great but they had something inside of them that most great fighters dont.

[Thread Stealer]

the best answer for me is two guys who make boxing better and more respectable for being a part of its history......sure they werent great but they had something inside of them that most great fighters dont.

Or it could be just that they had to show their guts and reslience more because they lacked the talent and skills of the great fighters.

[rekcutnevets]

I like that, mightyd40.

[rekcutnevets]

I meant what you said, mightyd. Erratic Behavior beat my post.

[boxbible]

Although Ward and Gatti may not have been the best boxers around, they epitomized the word "warrior".

For this, they have a deep place in our psyche. I think most would agree that they would rather be Arturo Gatti than Pretty Boy Floyd, no matter how good Mayweather is.

I'd rather be Duran or Hagler than Sugar Ray or Roy Jones.

[mightyd40]

Or it could be just that they had to show their guts and reslience more because they lacked the talent and skills of the great fighters.
sure there are great fighters who could bite down like these two but more often than not when a great fighter is tested and there skills arent enough, they buckle under pressure. dont take away from them what they offered to this sport, thats an injustice they dont deserve

[rekcutnevets]

Which Sugar Ray? Robinson was a warrior that took punishment, and is regarded as having one of the best chins ever.

[Zakman]

Oddly similar to Zale and Graziano I think.

That's exactly what I was thinking. Zale is clearly better than Graziano, yet he lost to him. Same with Gatti and Ward. Gatti was clearly the better fighter, yet he lost to Ward. I think that people looking back on these fights 30 years from now will remember them exactly the way the Zale-Graziano fights have come to be remembered.

[Thread Stealer]

I see and hear these guys referred to as "b level," "journeymen," "not great," etc.

The above statements may be true for both fighters, but I believe they're on two different levels. The two of them had a nice competative run against each other, especially the first time, and that is why they are mentioned as though they are in the same class.

The truth is, Gatti is a two division champion. Ward was a top notch, one division, contender. Ward may have gone above 140 at times, but 140 is where he was most effective.

Gatti may not be the most dominant champ the world has ever known, but he was still a champion. Ward was effective in his own right, but he never reached world champion stature.

Whatever level Gatti is on, Ward is beneath. You can say a,b, or c level. You can say top notch, not so good, almost there, wish they could've been, or whatever. Gatti is still one notch above.

True.

Gatti gets bashed a lot for his poor defense and being a "bum" or "clubfighter", but he was a world titlist and one of the top 130 lb. fighters at the time he was there. At 140, when it was a deep division, sure he wasn't the true champ there, but he beat some good lower top 10 contenders/fringe contenders there, and when you compare his resume @ 140 to some of the other contenders at that time, Gatti belonged among the contenders at 140 at the time.

He was still a pretty good fighter.

Ward was below the level of Gatti. Gatti won about 80% of the rounds in their trilogy, but even if you look past that (Gatti was closer to his prime than Ward), Gatti has the better quality of victories...and less defeats as well.

[Thread Stealer]

Although Ward and Gatti may not have been the best boxers around, they epitomized the word "warrior".

For this, they have a deep place in our psyche. I think most would agree that they would rather be Arturo Gatti than Pretty Boy Floyd, no matter how good Mayweather is.

I'd rather be Duran or Hagler than Sugar Ray or Roy Jones.

Sugar Ray had a ton of heart.

Floyd can be too conservative at times, he hasn't been tested really in terms of a gut check (maybe the first Castillo fight), but it's not like he's shown a lack of heart like Roy in the third Tarver fight.

sure there are great fighters who could bite down like these two but more often than not when a great fighter is tested and there skills arent enough, they buckle under pressure. dont take away from them what they offered to this sport, thats an injustice they dont deserve

:?

Give me these instances of how more often than not, great fighters buckle under pressure.

Plenty of great fighters dig down when needed.

The guys that don't are often unfairly labelled "not a real great" because of this, regardless of what else they achieved.

[salsanchezfan]

the best answer for me is two guys who make boxing better and more respectable for being a part of its history......sure they werent great but they had something inside of them that most great fighters dont.



............After reading this, my own post would have been redundant. Nicely put. :good

[mightyd40]

good call, but i guess i should have edited my own writing..... i didnt mean great as in all time great, more like great talents.....that is why there are so few considered all time greats

[Vanboxingfan]

Or it could be just that they had to show their guts and reslience more because they lacked the talent and skills of the great fighters.

That's one way to look at it. I prefer to think that they did the best they could with the talent they had and that's more than a lot of fighters do. Many fighters including greats, don't push their talents to the limits to the point where they have to gut out fights and fight through severe pain in a due or die battle. That to me is far more impressive than just having mere talent. One must also remember that while the talent aspect is important, ultimately sports in the entertainment field and these were both entertaining fighters. And I'll gladly watch a gatti-ward fight than say a Roy Jones blow out of Woods for example.

To each his own I guess, but I for one with remember them both fondly and I wish more fighters fought with the guts and resilence that they both demonstrated.

[Thread Stealer]

For me, two overhyped, glorified journeymen that produced 3 highly overrated fights.

Give me MAB-Morales over that one anyday.

They had a lot of other exciting fights, though.

That's one way to look at it. I prefer to think that they did the best they could with the talent they had and that's more than a lot of fighters do. Many fighters including greats, don't push their talents to the limits to the point where they have to gut out fights and fight through severe pain in a due or die battle. That to me is far more impressive than just having mere talent. One must also remember that while the talent aspect is important, ultimately sports in the entertainment field and these were both entertaining fighters. And I'll gladly watch a gatti-ward fight than say a Roy Jones blow out of Woods for example.

To each his own I guess, but I for one with remember them both fondly and I wish more fighters fought with the guts and resilence that they both demonstrated.

Well of course, they worked hard and showed a lot of guts in their fights.

It's when you hear some people, some writers, downgrade the top fighters' hearts' and then say "they don't fight with the heart of so and so". Plenty of the elite fighters have the intestinal fortitude, they just don't need to show it as much because they have better skills.

For example, that piece of shit Ron Borges talking about how Trinidad and De La Hoya showed little heart and then bringing up the Ward-Green fight. Tito-De La Hoya was a poor fight, but everyone has off-nights. Micky Ward hardly showed much heart running around the ring against Sanchez. Tito showed numerous times what he was made out of.

[mightyd40]

For me, two overhyped, glorified journeymen that produced 3 highly overrated fights.

Give me MAB-Morales over that one anyday.
wow, harsh and rare......idk about overrated fights and these arent the only fights that made these guys special, gatti has been in fight of the year without ward

[China_hand_Joe]

Gatti is the kind of fighter you can make a living betting against

[Thread Stealer]

wow, harsh and rare......idk about overrated fights and these arent the only fights that made these guys special, gatti has been in fight of the year without ward

Gatti's first fight with Ivan Robinson is 2nd on my list of best fights of the 90s, behind Carbajal-Gonzalez I.

I also thought either Gatti-Rodriguez or Barrera-McKinney (or Golota-Bowe 2) should've been FOTY for 1996. They were all better than Holyfield-Tyson 1.

Besides Augustus in 2001, Ward had two excellent bouts in 2000 against Neary and A. Diaz. That was a hard year to compete for FOTY with Barrera-Morales I and Trinidad-Vargas.

[CASH_718]

Happens a lot bro.

Braddock, Bruno...Gatti and Ward of the top of my head.Bruno??? He had a great punch and a great jab.

Besides the two Tyson fights he was winning in all of his loses.... Lewis, Witherspoon, Smith.

[CASH_718]

For me, two overhyped, glorified journeymen that produced 3 highly overrated fights.

Give me MAB-Morales over that one anyday.Shut your hole douch bag.

[CASH_718]

wow, harsh and rare......idk about overrated fights and these arent the only fights that made these guys special, gatti has been in fight of the year without wardAnd so has Ward without Gatti.

[Thread Stealer]

Happens a lot bro.

Braddock, Bruno...Gatti and Ward of the top of my head.

Ward's world title was the WBU, which is a real fringe title.

Luis Santana is the most limited fighter I can think of that won (stole) a world title, off the top of my head.

[Beebs]

But Zale is looked upon fairly highly among the middleweight champs. Graziano less so, as the Zale fights were past Tony's prime, and Rocky tended to pick on smaller guys.


Well its not an exact much, but the trilogy for one, Zale playing Gatti, being the better regarded fighter, and winning 2 of 3, and Ward being the incredibly exciting warrior with the one win.

Differences exists, like you said in terms of age and size, but its a close comparison I think.

[thunder06]

yea i think the zale-graziano comparison makes sense.

[unitas]

good televison fighters.........certainly not HOF material!!

certainly not ward.

[China_hand_Joe]

Any recordings of Gatti - Ward should be incinerated, I don't want that kind of defence being promoted

[Thread Stealer]

Any recordings of Gatti - Ward should be incinerated, I don't want that kind of defence being promoted

What if it's Lacy's defense versus Slappy?

[China_hand_Joe]

Joe Calzaghe's hands are almost ghost-like at times and do appear to travel through solid flesh -fullstop-

[Thread Stealer]

Joe Calzaghe's hands are almost ghost-like at times and do appear to travel through solid flesh -fullstop-

Yeah, they're especially ghost-like when it comes to Glen Johnson and how they are injured.

You can't see them.

[thunder06]

Any recordings of Gatti - Ward should be incinerated, I don't want that kind of defence being promoted
sure.

[Irish Steel]

wow, harsh and rare......idk about overrated fights and these arent the only fights that made these guys special, gatti has been in fight of the year without ward

WHoah, Ward has been in 3 fight of the years. 2 with GAtti, and one with Emanuel augustus. Get your facts straight. So 3 fight of they years, come on, you would have to rank him up there. Certainly not the best. But not the worst either.To call Ward, a 3 time fight of the year award winner a journey man is a slight exaggeration. I say he was fringe contender. COntender at best.

[thunder06]

gatti was in 4 fights of the year and ward in 3. both are incredible fighters.

[boxbible]

Which Sugar Ray? Robinson was a warrior that took punishment, and is regarded as having one of the best chins ever.

Leonard... :bart

[Amsterdam]

wow, harsh and rare......idk about overrated fights and these arent the only fights that made these guys special, gatti has been in fight of the year without ward

I know. I am saying clearly Gatti-Ward is overrated in comparison to say MAB-Barrera, because MAB-Barrera had similiar sustained back and forth action with a lack of defence, but with elite P4P level fighters utilising great top class offencive skills....

Where as Gatti vs. Ward was two FRINGE CONTENDERS at best just slugging the piss out of each other. Boring to me honestly.

[thunder06]

I know. I am saying clearly Gatti-Ward is overrated in comparison to say MAB-Barrera, because MAB-Barrera had similiar sustained back and forth action with a lack of defence, but with elite P4P level fighters utilising great top class offencive skills....

Where as Gatti vs. Ward was two FRINGE CONTENDERS at best just slugging the piss out of each other. Boring to me honestly.

fought himself, did he?:lol:

[Thread Stealer]

Leonard... :bart

Gay Ray Leonard was a tough mofo too.

[Asterion]

Gatti is no journeyman. He was a solid contender and also a beltholder in different weight classes.

[Amsterdam]

Gatti is no journeyman. He was a solid contender and also a beltholder in different weight classes.

At 130, he was indeed a solid contender. After that, a gate keeper/journeyman title is very fitting for Gatti, look what happened whenever he fought a good fighter who was not totally shot.

He was glorified because of his exciting qualities, in real ability, he was a gate keeper at best outside of 130.

[Amsterdam]

fought himself, did he?:lol:

I meant MAB-Morales, it was late.

[Asterion]

After that, a gate keeper/journeyman title is very fitting for Gatti


He was considered #1 Junior Welterweight contender by the Ring, though. And then a Top8 Welterweight when he beat Thomas Daamgard.

By the way, look the article about Gatti in Fightnews, they show you the changes in his face by comparing a photograph of 1991 and one of 2007. The guy has totally changed.

[Amsterdam]

He was considered #1 Junior Welterweight contender by the Ring, though. And then a Top8 Welterweight when he beat Thomas Daamgard.

By the way, look the article about Gatti in Fightnews, they show you the changes in his face by comparing a photograph of 1991 and one of 2007. The guy has totally changed.

Yes, he was highly ranked and well regarded, not the word "glorified" journeyman/gatekeeper above 130.

Gatti would have beaten none of his 140 contemporaries, he would have been trashed, he was fed easy fights to keep the thing going for the fans.

The fact that he was ranked after beating a domestic danish tomato can is pretty pathetic since he was coming off of a one sided TKO loss. He was even ranked after Baldomir beat him down, I believe at #13 at the time he fought Gomez... that's pathetic.

He has totally changed, it's sickening the amount of punishment he's taken.