Mickey Walker vs John Ruiz

[janitor]

Could the Toy Bulldog have seperated the Quiet Man from the title the night he fought James Toney?

I personaly think yes but I am interested to hear what you think.

[Dempsey1238]

IF this a hard question?? If a past it, FAT, out of shape James Toney could have box Ruiz's ears off, I relly hate to see what Walker would have done with him. Much less say Harry Greb lol.

[janitor]

If a past it, FAT, out of shape James Toney could have box Ruiz's ears off, I relly hate to see what Walker would have done with him. Much less say Harry Greb lol.

This is my view.

I am interested to see how many people share it however.

[Joe E]

I think Walker would have kicked Ruizs' ass and i don't care what the size differential was.Thanks.:hi:

[TBooze]

Ruiz to win a horror of a match by razor thin decision (WS12), But Walker to win a 15 round fight (WM15)

[Duodenum]

As I look at the query posed here, I just can't get the image of 6'3" 223 pound Arthur De Kuh on his knees at Walker's feet, 1:38 into round one. Ruiz = kaput.

[mcvey]

Could the Toy Bulldog have seperated the Quiet Man from the title the night he fought James Toney?

I personaly think yes but I am interested to hear what you think.
Walker fought some big guys ,like Bearcat Wright ,he drew with a disinterested Sharkey,got butchered by Schmeling,but only top big men beat him ,I think he beats Ruiz.

[Zakman]

You know, actually in my oppinion is John Ruiz one of the most underrated hw title holders. He, along with Chris Byrd, has the second best resume during Lewis reign and would have been a contender in the most other eras also. Ruiz can box, watch his last bouts against Valuev, which i had him winning, and Chagaev. He had good head movement, good boxing ability, decent power and ring generalship. He wasn´t exciting to watch but he wasn´t as bad as some people make him. Yeah, he lost to a roided-up Toney and Jones but having a close series with Holyfield, beating some good ranked contenders and beeing so long in the hw top10 has to count for something.
Ruiz? Boxing ability? C'mon, Ruiz has all the talent of a high-grade clubfighter, which is why he HAD to hold excessively and fake low blows. Don't just look at the names on his ledger, examine HOW he "beat" them, mostly by holding excessively and, in the case of his title "winning" fight with Holyfield and the bogus DQ "win" against Kirk Johnson, by blatantly overacting to force low blow calls. He'd done this at least once before against Jimmy Thunder, too.

Ruiz was a fraud, a cheater and a fake. ANY decent fighter coming up from the lower weights beats him. An ATG like Walker would make him look like the palooka he is.

[Zakman]

I really don´t know what poor John did to you but i like Ruiz because his presence alone upsets you :D:D:D

Ruiz cheated his opponents, and the sport - that's what upsets me. He is exhibit A of everything wrong with this sport, a fighter who would NEVER have won more than a regional belt without his connections to King.

[McGrain]

Ruiz pushed it within the rules allright.

But I pick him here by late stoppage. Why not? He's an expert at smothering and exhausting his man. Toney at least had the weight to turn him in a clinch.

[Max Molyneux]

Ruiz? Boxing ability? C'mon, Ruiz has all the talent of a high-grade clubfighter, which is why he HAD to hold excessively and fake low blows. Don't just look at the names on his ledger, examine HOW he "beat" them, mostly by holding excessively and, in the case of his title "winning" fight with Holyfield and the bogus DQ "win" against Kirk Johnson, by blatantly overacting to force low blow calls. He'd done this at least once before against Jimmy Thunder, too.

Ruiz was a fraud, a cheater and a fake. ANY decent fighter coming up from the lower weights beats him. An ATG like Walker would make him look like the palooka he is.

There were no fake low blows Vs Valuev or excessive holding.

He wouldn't need to cheat to beat Audley Harrison though.:yep

[Senya13]

Ruiz knocks him out. The size difference is too much for Walker.

[janitor]

Ruiz knocks him out. The size difference is too much for Walker.

Walker beat a lot of men the size of Ruiz. Usualy in the first round.

Size alone is not going to win it for Ruiz.

[Senya13]

John Ruiz is not a Arthur De Kuh or Bearcat Wright. Size (which includes weight) will be the deciding factor in this bout, it will nullify whatever advantage Walker has in skills department. And the styles matchup doesn't help him either.

[janitor]

[quote=Senya13]John Ruiz is not a Arthur De Kuh or Bearcat Wright.

He might not be a whole lot better either.

Size (which includes weight) will be the deciding factor in this bout, it will nullify whatever advantage Walker has in skills department.

We have already established that Walker could handel a fighter of this weight.

What skills dose Ruiz have that will enable him to capitalize on his weight where others failed?


And the styles matchup doesn't help him either.


My guess is that Ruiz is made for a guy like Walker stylisticaly. Low activity rate, easy to counter and outbox.

[Senya13]

1. He's not just a "might be", he IS a whole lot better.
2. Where did we establish that? If you think a fight with De Kuh proves Walker can take on any guy in history with such height and weight, you're plain wrong.
3. Ruiz is one of the most effective infighters at heavyweight. And Walker will probably want to fight there too, but he's way too small for that and his defense is nowhere near as good as Toney's.

[janitor]

[quote=Senya13]1. He's not just a "might be", he IS a whole lot better.


How?


2. Where did we establish that? If you think a fight with De Kuh proves Walker can take on any guy in history with such height and weight, you're plain wrong.


It proves that being that weight will not of itself guarantee victory.


3. Ruiz is one of the most effective infighters at heavyweight. And Walker will probably want to fight there too, but he's way too small for that and his defense is nowhere near as good as Toney's.


Walker was not just an infighter he was prety versatile in his style.

In any event the quiet mans infighting skills are nothing special. Having the some of the best infighting skills at heavyweight today is like being the tallest midget.

[Senya13]

Stop asking stupid questions. If you don't understand the difference in class between John Ruiz and Arthur De Kuh or Bearcat Wright, you need to take off the rose-colored glasses of looking at any fighter of the past as some kidn of demi-gods, and start reading contemporary reports to exclude historical revisionism.
One single fight against a tomato can weighing 220 pounds doesn't prove you can take on proven titlists of same or even bigger size.
Flowers outfought Walker at infighting, although Tiger was a dirtier fighter than Ruiz, but that should give you an idea. Greb outfought Walker inside also.

[janitor]

[quote=Senya13]Stop asking stupid questions. If you don't understand the difference in class between John Ruiz and Arthur De Kuh or Bearcat Wright, you need to take off the rose-colored glasses of looking at any fighter of the past as some kidn of demi-gods, and start reading contemporary reports to exclude historical revisionism.


I know that ruiz is better on pape in a weak era but is he necisarily far more skillfull?


One single fight against a tomato can weighing 220 pounds doesn't prove you can take on proven titlists of same or even bigger size.


It is often enough to get a shot at an alphabet title these days.


Flowers outfought Walker at infighting, although Tiger was a dirtier fighter than Ruiz, but that should give you an idea. Greb outfought Walker inside also.


I hope you are not comparing Ruiz to Flowers or Greb in terms of ability.

That would just make me want to cry.

[Senya13]

1. The weakness of this era is overrated. The time when Walker fought those two was considered to be very weak as well, the transition years between the retirement of Dempsey/Tunney and the coming of Louis. De Kuh barely was able to sneak at 15 and 13 place of Ring's rating 6 and 5 years before he faced Walker. Wright never got rated there.

2. There are plenty of journeymen at the top now (same as in every other era, they are usually no more than 2-3 top guys, the rest are journeymen), but no tomato cans:
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Greb and Flowers weren't great technicians. But they often overcame more skillful guys with sheer agression, toughness (Tiger less so) and dirty tactics.

[janitor]

[quote=Senya13]1. The weakness of this era is overrated. The time when Walker fought those two was considered to be very weak as well, the transition years between the retirement of Dempsey/Tunney and the coming of Louis.

Depends what you mean. The talent pool at heavyweight was huge at the time.

It is quite plaisible that Ruiz would never have cracked the top 10.


De Kuh barely was able to sneak at 15 and 13 place of Ring's rating 6 and 5 years before he faced Walker. Wright never got rated there.


Wright never got into the upper league due to the colour bar at the time. He was a lot better than De Kuh and beat a few top heavyweights of the period.


2. There are plenty of journeymen at the top now (same as in every other era, they are usually no more than 2-3 top guys, the rest are journeymen), but no tomato cans:
[Only registered and activated users can see links]


The fact is that today you can get a title shot virtualy for beating the poastman.


Greb and Flowers weren't great technicians. But they often overcame more skillful guys with sheer agression, toughness (Tiger less so) and dirty tactics.


Both could box verry efectively when they chose to.

[Senya13]

Annual rating for 1931
Max Schmeling, Champion
1. Jack Sharkey
2. Ernie Schaaf
3. Primo Carnera
4. King Levinsky
5. Mickey Walker
6. Tommy Loughran
7. Young Stribling
8. Stanley Poreda
9. Tuffy Griffiths
10. Max Baer

Annual rating for 1932:
Jack Sharkey, Champion
1. Max Schmeling
2. Max Baer
3. Stanley Poreda
4. Primo Carnera
5. Ernie Schaaf
6. Johnny Risko
7. King Levinsky
8. Walter Neusel
9. Larry Gains
10. Ed (Unknown) Winston

If you think this is a great pool of heavyweights, I don't know what standards you apply. Compare it to today's Ring Ratings I gave a link to.


Which top heavyweights of the time did Wright beat, exactly? Say plus/minus 3 years from Walker fight?

It was even easier to get rated for beating a postman back then, as many fighters also had another job to earn for living. Today you hardly see this at top echelon.

Nobody says they couldn't box. Just don't try to spin it to make them great technicians with great defense or things like that.

[janitor]

[quote=Senya13]Annual rating for 1931
Max Schmeling, Champion
1. Jack Sharkey
2. Ernie Schaaf
3. Primo Carnera
4. King Levinsky
5. Mickey Walker
6. Tommy Loughran
7. Young Stribling
8. Stanley Poreda
9. Tuffy Griffiths
10. Max Baer

Annual rating for 1932:
Jack Sharkey, Champion
1. Max Schmeling
2. Max Baer
3. Stanley Poreda
4. Primo Carnera
5. Ernie Schaaf
6. Johnny Risko
7. King Levinsky
8. Walter Neusel
9. Larry Gains
10. Ed (Unknown) Winston

If you think this is a great pool of heavyweights, I don't know what standards you apply. Compare it to today's Ring Ratings I gave a link to.


I consider both these lists to be better than todays top 10.


Which top heavyweights of the time did Wright beat, exactly? Say plus/minus 3 years from Walker fight?


George Godfrey, Tiger Jack Fox, also reported to have a win over Fred Fulton.

[janitor]

Nobody says they couldn't box. Just don't try to spin it to make them great technicians with great defense or things like that.

If great defence equates to being hard to hit then Greb's was among the greatest ever.

[Senya13]

I have no more questions to you. If you think those poor top10 are better than the current one, my only advise would be for you to get some contemporary sources, Ring magazine if you can get those old issues, or just newspaper articles from the time, and see what the people from that time thought about that heavyweight division.

When did Bearcat Wright defeat George Godfrey?
First appearance of Tiger Jack Fox in Ring ratings: 1937 Light Heavyweight division #2

[Senya13]

Fred Fulton win was 6 years before he fought Walker.

[Senya13]

Give me a couple of sources that praised Greb's defense as great.

[janitor]

I have no more questions to you. If you think those poor top10 are better than the current one, my only advise would be for you to get some contemporary sources, Ring magazine if you can get those old issues, or just newspaper articles from the time, and see what the people from that time thought about that heavyweight division.


I could quote what some contemporary sources said about the division last week.

Sure I think the 30s list is better. The resumes of the 30s ranked fighters are clearly superior.

If you like we can match the top ten from the two era's and see which comes out on top. Say 1931 vs 2006. In terms of head to head we can never know but in terms of record the 30s crew will take it.

[janitor]

Give me a couple of sources that praised Greb's defense as great.

I can give you the testimony of guys like Gene Tunney and Mickey Walker saying that they could not hit him.

Will that do?

[Senya13]

I'm too lazy to dig up the newspaper clipings, so I'll use the books instead

John Jarreyy "Gene Tunney - The Golden Guy Who Licked Jack Dempsey Twice":
pp. 59-60 - first fight
Tunney fought back with a body attack in round three, while Greb targeted the nose. The fourth was a furious session and they fought on some fifteen seconds after the bell before McPartland could tear them apart. Greb had shaded that round and Tunney fought desperately enough to make the fifth even, his hammer blows to the mid-section giving Greb something to think about. ... Yet Tunney summoned the strength from somewhere deep in his fighter's soul to launch a savage attack to Greb's body in the seventh round, left and right hooks thudding home to let his opponent know he was still there.

pp. 74-75, the 1st rematch
... the bell rang for round one.
Tunney was first to score, landing a solid left hook to the head and following quickly with the same hand to the body. Greb came in close and they exchanged lefts and rights to the body, ...
Round three and Greb rushed in, only to be met by a solid body attack that made him seek a clinch. ... They exchanged lefts and, as Greb missed a right to the jaw, Tunney put everything into a right to the heart that lifted Greb off his feet and made him fall into a clinch. Tunney was on top in this round and bounced right hands off Greb's jaw before another terrific right under the heart made Greb glad to hang on. The New Yorker finished the round with two searing punches into the body and Greb was happy to hear the bell.
Tunney was remembering Benny Leonard's advice in the gym and was concentrating his attacks on the body as the Pittsburgh Windmill sailed in with gloves flying. In the fourth round, Tunney varied his attack and a right to Greb's flat nose brought blood. The champ fired back with a wicked left to the body but had to take a solid left and right to the jaw, then lefts and rights to the body forced a clinch. Tunney tore himself free and drove Greb before him to the ropes with a two-fisted barrage of leather that ended only with the bell. In the fifth round a smashing right to the face brought blood gashing from Greb's mouth ...


I also looked in "A man must fight" (1944 Services Edition), and I don't see Tunney mentioning he couldn't hit Greb where he writes about these fights.

[Senya13]

I could quote what some contemporary sources said about the division last week.

Sure I think the 30s list is better. The resumes of the 30s ranked fighters are clearly superior.
You will need to do the same thing for early 1930's, as what you said above for today's heavyweights. Ie, quote some contemporary sources that claimed the division was very good.

[janitor]

You will need to do the same thing for early 1930's, as what you said above for today's heavyweights. Ie, quote some contemporary sources that claimed the division was very good.

Let's just match up the two lists and compare their resumes.

The result will be prety clear cut.

[Senya13]

You will have the benefit of history-revisionism. Current crop of heavyweights will most surely be looked upon more favorably as the years pass. You have to look at contemporary opinions for comparison to be fair.

[mr. magoo]

If you think those poor top10 are better than the current one, my only advise would be for you to get some contemporary sources, Ring magazine if you can get those old issues, or just newspaper articles from the time, and see what the people from that time thought about that heavyweight division.


Ahhhhh,

Have you been paying attention to what people say on an almost daily basis about TODAY'S heavyweight division?

[mr. magoo]

Walker beat a lot of men the size of Ruiz. Usualy in the first round.

Size alone is not going to win it for Ruiz.

Agreed,

Ruiz was horribly outboxed by a 34 year old, 5'10" 195 pound Roy Jones, who was making his heavyweight debut, and had never even fought a cruiserweight.

[Senya13]

When did Roy Jones Jr shrink by 1" of height and increased by 2lb in (official) weight? Can't get your facts correct?

[mr. magoo]

=Senya13]When did Roy Jones Jr shrink by 1" of height and increased by 2lb in (official) weight?


Oh boy, you really got me there :nut



Can't get your facts correct?


Lol. You have a long way to go before you can talk to me about getting facts straight my good man.

[mr. magoo]

Well they were saying the same about the 30s division at the time. Not that it is true but i don´t think the today´s division is as bad as it is made up.

Understood,

Except Senya often tries to debate the inferiority of past eras by mentioning what critics said about them, at the time. My only point by bringing up today's critics, is that if he's going to pull that crap, then it works both ways

[Icemmann]

Ruiz cheated his opponents, and the sport - that's what upsets me. He is exhibit A of everything wrong with this sport, a fighter who would NEVER have won more than a regional belt without his connections to King.

The coming from the guy that tries to say Evander Headbuttingfield is the best heavyweight of the last 30 years?

I don't think so. :bart

[Zakman]

The coming from the guy that tries to say Evander Headbuttingfield is the best heavyweight of the last 30 years?

I don't think so. :bart

Holyfield's headbutting is WAY over-exagerated, primarily by Tyson fans who want to excuse his transgressions. And, in any event, Holyfield was not even accused of this to my knowlege, when he was at his best. It is only as he began to slip that he adopted a style that seemed to lend itself to more head clashes.

In any event, there is a big difference between a fading great using illegal tactics to SUPPLEMENT his skills, and a talentless hack like Ruiz using shameful cheating as a REPLACEMENT for them.

What makes the Ruiz Scandal so disgusting is that without illegal holding, faking low blows, and the influence of Don King that greased the wheels for this crap - nobody ever would've heard of Ruiz after he was starched by Tua.

[Icemmann]

Holyfield's headbutting is WAY over-exagerated, primarily by Tyson fans who want to excuse his transgressions. And, in any event, Holyfield was not even accused of this to my knowlege, when he was at his best. It is only as he began to slip that he adopted a style that seemed to lend itself to more head clashes.

In any event, there is a big difference between a fading great using illegal tactics to SUPPLEMENT his skills, and a talentless hack like Ruiz using shameful cheating as a REPLACEMENT for them.

What makes the Ruiz Scandal so disgusting is that without illegal holding, faking low blows, and the influence of Don King that greased the wheels for this crap - nobody ever would've heard of Ruiz after he was starched by Tua.

He adopted a style that lent itself to more headclashes? So a Tyson fan could say that Tyson adopted a style that lent itself to more opponents placing body parts into his mouth?

You can't call a guy out for questionable tactics when the same guy you hype makes his living doing the same shit. Holyfields a headbutter. Same a Ruiz is a hugger.