Record of fighters against Top10 opposition....

[Asterion]

Julio Cesar Chavez: 21-5-1

Oscar de la Hoya: 21-5

Roy Jones: 20-4

Sugar Ray Leonard: 18-4

Floyd Mayweather: 18-0

Bernard Hopkins: 17-4

Pernell Whitaker: 16-3-1

Marco Antonio Barrera: 17-6

Felix Trinidad: 15-2

Shane Mosley: 14-5

Manny Pacquiao: 13-2-2

Winky Wright: 12-4-1

Miguel Cotto: 11-0



Wins-Losses-Draws



(This might not be exact, but very close.)

[brooklyn1550]

Hopkins would be 17-4

Mitchell wasn't a top 10, nor a top 100.

[Kaz_187]

yes yes yes get cotto vs mayweather going someones o must go:bbb

[Asterion]

Hopkins would be 17-4

Mitchell wasn't a top 10, nor a top 100.

:lol: :good



Ezzard Charles was something like 31-12 (damn!). Another era...

[brooklyn1550]

By any chance, do you know Morales's record against Top 10s?

[Asterion]

By any chance, do you know Morales's record against Top 10s?


Daniel Zaragoza
John Lowey
Junior Jones
Angel Chacon
Reynante Jamili
Juan Carlos Ramirez
Wayne McCollough
Marco Antonio Barrera
Kevin Kelley
Rodney Jones
Guty Espadas
In Jin Chi
Paulie Ayala
Jesús Chavez
Carlos Hernandez
Manny Pacquiao

Manny Pacquaio
Manny Pacquiao
Zahir Raheem
Marco Antonio Barrera
Marco Antonio Barrera
David Diaz



It would be something like 16-6 approx. But the loss against Diaz was at 135 and when he was shot, so maybe it shouldn't be counted.

[brooklyn1550]

Thanks.

Basically the same as Barrera's which further goes to show you how close they rank in terms of greatness.

[Asterion]

Thanks.

Basically the same as Barrera's which further goes to show you how close they rank in terms of greatness.

I rank them very close in P4P lists, but I put Barrera higher because he was the winner of their great trilogy. Although I think that Morales' opposition was better.

[Sweet Pea]

Ezzard Charles was something like 31-12 (damn!). Another era...I understand it was better than that, in the area of 40 wins.

[sean]

haters of calzaghe.

let me guess

0-0

[ChrisPontius]

What is top10? Ring or alphabet rankings?

Lennox Lewis is 18-2 against ring ranked top10 contenders.

[sean]

not looked it up but lennox lewis fought a who`s who of top 10 , hardly ever fought anyone not ranked in the rings top ten , so would be very impressive in this stat dept , especially given that he fought most of them on the road in his opponents back yard.

[sean]

What is top10? Ring or alphabet rankings?

Lennox Lewis is 18-2 against ring ranked top10 contenders.

i must have been typing this exact thing as you posted.
:oops:

[Asterion]

What is top10? Ring or alphabet rankings?

Lennox Lewis is 18-2 against ring ranked top10 contenders.


I use Ring ratings.

[ChrisPontius]

I use Ring ratings.

They are certainly most relieable. I didn't know Cotto had 11 ring ranked victims already. Impressive stuff.

[AliFrazier71]

I wonder, what is Tyson's?

[BigBone]

Thx for the records! By the way: where do you get The Ring rankings archives?

Also, what is the top10 record for:
Evander Holyfield
Kostya Tszyu
Dariusz Michalczewski
and Ricardo Lopez, if I may ask? :)

[Bslice]

They are certainly most relieable. I didn't know Cotto had 11 ring ranked victims already. Impressive stuff.

What do you mean already, Cotto is 28 sounds like par for the course if you ask me

[jecxbox]

How many top 10 has Calzaghe taken?

[Spitbucket]

Thanks.

Basically the same as Barrera's which further goes to show you how close they rank in terms of greatness.

Interesting side-note about MAB, I believe his resume is sprinkled with the most # of fighters who were at one time or another on the Ring's PFP list (at least 8 of them)!

[PugilisticPower]

How many top 10 has Calzaghe taken?

Lacy, Veit x2, Kessler, Manfredo (10th at the time), Bika (10th at the time) Mkertchian (9th at the time), Reid, Woodhall, Sheika, Eubank, Mitchell, Hopkins.

Pretty sure each of these guys were Ring Top 10 at the time they fought Calzaghe, only ones I'm not 100% on are Woodhall and Sheika but I know both were highly rated at the time they got beaten.

13-0

[PugilisticPower]

Goes to show you...

A: Pernell Whittaker didn't fight as many great names as people seem to think he did

B: Oscar De La Hoya has won a shitload against top ranked fighters considering the amount of fights he had vs the amount of fights Chavez had. Oscar has also only ever lost to great great fighters

C: Floyd Mayweather Jr ain't doing too badly for himself, another win against De La Hoya gets him another Top 10er and puts him close to the 20 which seems to be "elite"

D: The respect we show to universally rated top 10 fighters has absolutely decreased as we constantly state "Who has Floyd ever beat" without realising, he's actually beat a shitload of top ranked fighters.

[eliqueiros]

Very cool stats, makes me re-evaluate many people from a different perspective. :good

[BigBone]

I might add that The Ring has to rank guys in weak divisions as well, so defeating top10 fighters (especially at the lower end) in a weak division and a strong division is not the same.

[JAB5239]

Goes to show you...

A: Pernell Whittaker didn't fight as many great names as people seem to think he did

[QUOTE]quote]


Whitaker took on the very best. He should be 18-2, save for the Ramirez and Chavez robberies. Some might even argue 19-1 because of the close fight against Oscar. Im not one of them, but an argument can be made. Pea's record is impressive no matter how you slice it.

[eliqueiros]

Things I never noticed

RJJ and DLH have similar win/loss ratio to top opposition.

Mayweather has a better record than Leonard.

Of course, its not as black and white as this but still interesting to think about.

[JAB5239]

Sugar Ray Leonard: 18-4


Was Tommy hearns not a top 10 fighter when he an Leonard fought their second fight? Is so, a draw should be on Ray's record.

[AliFrazier71]

Leonard's losses came to ATG Duran and the other two when he was wasy past his prime. Cant compare Leonard to Mayweather. And when you think about it, Leonard's best was from 77-81, only 5 years. Had he not retired in 82, he would have a much more impressive record.

[jecxbox]

Goes to show you...

A: Pernell Whittaker didn't fight as many great names as people seem to think he did

B: Oscar De La Hoya has won a shitload against top ranked fighters considering the amount of fights he had vs the amount of fights Chavez had. Oscar has also only ever lost to great great fighters

C: Floyd Mayweather Jr ain't doing too badly for himself, another win against De La Hoya gets him another Top 10er and puts him close to the 20 which seems to be "elite"

D: The respect we show to universally rated top 10 fighters has absolutely decreased as we constantly state "Who has Floyd ever beat" without realising, he's actually beat a shitload of top ranked fighters.


I love Floyd for what hes done in his career over all, but I hate him for what hes done in his career the last 2 years. :smoke I want to see Floyd clean out 147lbs. He is still young and still has time. I won't be rooting for him against Cotto but I'd respect him if he took the fight and even more if he clearly wins.

[JAB5239]

I love Floyd for what hes done in his career over all, but I hate him for what hes done in his career the last 2 years. :smoke I want to see Floyd clean out 147lbs. He is still young and still has time. I won't be rooting for him against Cotto but I'd respect him if he took the fight and even more if he clearly wins.

These are my EXACT sentiments. Nicely put.

[ChrisPontius]

What do you mean already, Cotto is 28 sounds like par for the course if you ask me

You are right, it's just that i tend to view Cotto as one of the excellent contenders out there, not really someone that far on the road to greatness as his stats and recent fight results do imply him to be. I don't know. Gomez is a good fighter but Cotto just beat him so easily, my bag sessions are harder than that.

[LiamE]

Lacy, Veit x2, Kessler, Manfredo (10th at the time), Bika (10th at the time) Mkertchian (9th at the time), Reid, Woodhall, Sheika, Eubank, Mitchell, Hopkins.

Pretty sure each of these guys were Ring Top 10 at the time they fought Calzaghe, only ones I'm not 100% on are Woodhall and Sheika but I know both were highly rated at the time they got beaten.

13-0

Brewer not a top 10?

[Asterion]

Goes to show you...

A: Pernell Whittaker didn't fight as many great names as people seem to think he did

B: Oscar De La Hoya has won a shitload against top ranked fighters considering the amount of fights he had vs the amount of fights Chavez had. Oscar has also only ever lost to great great fighters

C: Floyd Mayweather Jr ain't doing too badly for himself, another win against De La Hoya gets him another Top 10er and puts him close to the 20 which seems to be "elite"

D: The respect we show to universally rated top 10 fighters has absolutely decreased as we constantly state "Who has Floyd ever beat" without realising, he's actually beat a shitload of top ranked fighters.

:good :good :good

[LightningJoe]

So Calzaghe is roughly 14-0 with 7 stoppages?

[PugilisticPower]

Goes to show you...

A: Pernell Whittaker didn't fight as many great names as people seem to think he did



Whitaker took on the very best. He should be 18-2, save for the Ramirez and Chavez robberies. Some might even argue 19-1 because of the close fight against Oscar. Im not one of them, but an argument can be made. Pea's record is impressive no matter how you slice it.

Don't get me wrong, he was P4P #1 during his time and his achievements are definitely to be respected, but being the common talking point is "Floyd doesn't fight many top guys compared to the old greats" - I think we can see in terms of "Who is available" - that Floyd does in fact beat top guys.

I love Floyd for what hes done in his career over all, but I hate him for what hes done in his career the last 2 years. :smoke I want to see Floyd clean out 147lbs. He is still young and still has time. I won't be rooting for him against Cotto but I'd respect him if he took the fight and even more if he clearly wins.

Floyd has had an amazing career and realistically his toughest challenge to date (excluding the injury against Castillo, he beat the crap out of him in the rematch) has been De La Hoya who he is rematching, the same De La Hoya who realistically just shut out a very good Forbes.

De La Hoya is a tough fight for anyone, he's beaten two world champs since his comeback and gave Floyd his toughest fight (a fight that I personally had drawn)

I respect Floyd for the rematch - will expect that if he beats De La Hoya and follows up with a win over Cotto (who should beat Margarito easily) that Floyd will be ranked Top 10 P4P ATG after that performance. Very few people can boast 40-41 undefeated fights, multiple weight champions like Floyd can, most guys eventually get figured out and lose

Brewer not a top 10?

Could have been, don't know, don't have the issue prior to that fight but that would put Joe at 14-0 which is some achievement and much better than people credit him for.

[BENNY BLANCO]

Asterion nice thread. Floyd 18-0 against top ten guys is quite impressive.

[PugilisticPower]

So Calzaghe is roughly 14-0 with 7 stoppages?

Yup, with arguments over the credibility of his division but all you can do is beat the guys you're in a division with, noticeably, Joe did clean out his division in four respective "boxing generations"

He took the big old dog out in Eubank and Woodhall

He cleaned up newcomers in Reid and Sheika

He cleaned up more newcomers in Veit, Mitchell and Brewer

Finally, he cleaned out the newcomers again in Lacy, Bika, Manfredo and Kessler.

I think his achievements should be rated highly being that he cemented himself in one division and realistically faced the best fighters during his time there, the only one he didn't face was Sven Ottke who if I recall correctly, refused to fight Joe in Germany with Joe taking 1 pound.

[Sweet Pea]

Goes to show you...

A: Pernell Whittaker didn't fight as many great names as people seem to think he did
How so? He fought 20 top 10 contenders. It's the quality of the fighters he fought and beat that gives him his reputation and ranking. The top guys he fought and beat were far better than the ones a guy like Floyd beat, and he did so more impressively.

[BENNY BLANCO]

Just out of curiousity was that Puerto Rican kid Henry Bruseles that Floyd ko with a bodyshot a top ten guy when Floyd fought him?

[PugilisticPower]

How so? He fought 20 top 10 contenders. It's the quality of the fighters he fought and beat that gives him his reputation and ranking. The top guys he fought and beat were far better than the ones a guy like Floyd beat, and he did so more impressively.

No, those guys are THOUGHT to be better than the ones Floyd beat. Realistically, they were no better during their era than the ones Floyd beat and Floyd has the added advantage of being unbeaten.

I'm not knocking the Pea, I'm just pointing out that most people consider him the most recent addition to the ATG pedestal (i.e Top 10 ATG boxers) - when his career wasn't really as successful (all things told, records, titles held) as FMJ.

I loved watching Pea fight and in a H2H 135-140 contest, it's a struggle to see many better, but his achievements aren't so different to Floyd that he belongs in a different echelon

[KobeIsGod]

Wlad--i doubt Purrity, Sanders, and Brewster were ring-ranked at the time of their fights

Wins vs. top 10: Sultan, Lamon II, Brock, Byrd II, Peter for sure

Other good wins but not sure where ranked: Mccline, Byrd I, Jefferson, Barrett, Mercer, Botha, Schultz

at least 5-0 though :nut

both thompson and povetkin are top 10 though

[Sweet Pea]

No, those guys are THOUGHT to be better than the ones Floyd beat. Realistically, they were no better during their era than the ones Floyd beat Really? Pea fought 4 surefire HOF'ers, and 4 fighters who were top 10 P4P when he faced them, including #1 Chavez. McGirt alone(probably the least of his top wins) was a top 5 P4P fighter, and therefore better even in an era by era basis than any of Floyd's wins.


and Floyd has the added advantage of being unbeaten.
What advantage is that when you take into account that Pea's competition was better, and that Pea fought until the age of 37 when he was shot?


I'm not knocking the Pea, I'm just pointing out that most people consider him the most recent addition to the ATG pedestal (i.e Top 10 ATG boxers) - when his career wasn't really as successful (all things told, records, titles held) as FMJ.
His career has been FAR more successful. Titles held don't mean a fucking thing when compared to competition. Competition faced is the #1 criteria for any objective boxing fan(Floyd fans obviously not counting, as they only bring up titles in different weight classes rather than the quality of those beaten, as you're proving right now).


I loved watching Pea fight and in a H2H 135-140 contest, it's a struggle to see many better, but his achievements aren't so different to Floyd that he belongs in a different echelon


Let's compare their top wins, all things considered, robberies, etc.

Pea

Chavez- #1 P4P fighter, ATG
Nelson- Top 10 P4P fighter, ATG moving up in weight
McGirt X2- Top 5 P4P in first fight, top 10 P4P in rematch
Vasquez- One of the best 154 pounders of his era, the guy that beat Winky's ass and that Terry Norris wanted no part of
Ramirez X2- One of the top, most consistent LW's of the 80's, past his prime, beaten twice very handily

Keep in mind this is not including DLH, who I and many others thought Pea beat

PBF

Hatton- Borderline top 10 P4P fighter, moving up in weight
DLH- Past prime, 154 pounder, nowhere near top 10 at the time
Corrales- Highest rated fighter on his resume, top 10 P4P
Castillo- Top LW, arguably lost the first fight
Hernandez- Past prime, top 130 pounder still

When looking at that objectively, Pea holds the clear edge.

[PrideOfWales]

Calzaghe

Eubank - longtime resident
Reid - one of the best in the world at the time
Brewer - easily top 10
Mitchell - fringe top 10
Veit x2 - solid top 10
Lacy - undefeated champ
Kessler - undefeated champ
Hopkins - just about scrapes top 10
Sheika - had just beaten Glen Johnson
Woodhall - top 8 at the time


I make it 11-0.

There may be a case for Starie but no way are you getting away with Mgrchkyn. He became European champ AFTER being defeated by Joe but did precious little beforehand. Bika was a nobody. I'm not buying the Manfredo top 10 bullshit - if he was top 10 then then I'm a lumberjack.

I would listen to a case for taking Eubank out of the list but everyone else stays. No more than 11 though.

[PugilisticPower]

Calzaghe

Eubank - longtime resident
Reid - one of the best in the world at the time
Brewer - easily top 10
Mitchell - fringe top 10
Veit x2 - solid top 10
Lacy - undefeated champ
Kessler - undefeated champ
Hopkins - just about scrapes top 10
Sheika - had just beaten Glen Johnson
Woodhall - top 8 at the time
I make it 11-0.

There may be a case for Starie but no way are you getting away with Mgrchkyn. He became European champ AFTER being defeated by Joe but did precious little beforehand. Bika was a nobody. I'm not buying the Manfredo top 10 bullshit - if he was top 10 then then I'm a lumberjack.

I would listen to a case for taking Eubank out of the list but everyone else stays. No more than 11 though.

Going on what this dude said - Ring Magazine Ratings. The only one I can't place for sure is Brewer, didn't think of Starie and don't know if he was a Top 10 so it could be as high as 15-0.

Bernard was Champion at the time he was beat

Kessler was 1st rated, Lacy was 3rd rated.

[JAB5239]

No, those guys are THOUGHT to be better than the ones Floyd beat. Realistically, they were no better during their era than the ones Floyd beat and Floyd has the added advantage of being unbeaten.

I'm not knocking the Pea, I'm just pointing out that most people consider him the most recent addition to the ATG pedestal (i.e Top 10 ATG boxers) - when his career wasn't really as successful (all things told, records, titles held) as FMJ.

I loved watching Pea fight and in a H2H 135-140 contest, it's a struggle to see many better, but his achievements aren't so different to Floyd that he belongs in a different echelon

I think you are way off base here. Chavez, McGirt and Azumah Nelson easily trump anybody on floyds resume, including DLH who was older than Chavez when he fought Pea.

[PugilisticPower]

Really? Pea fought 4 surefire HOF'ers, and 4 fighters who were top 10 P4P when he faced them, including #1 Chavez. McGirt alone(probably the least of his top wins) was a top 5 P4P fighter, and therefore better even in an era by era basis than any of Floyd's wins.

What advantage is that when you take into account that Pea's competition was better, and that Pea fought until the age of 37 when he was shot?

His career has been FAR more successful. Titles held don't mean a fucking thing when compared to competition. Competition faced is the #1 criteria for any objective boxing fan(Floyd fans obviously not counting, as they only bring up titles in different weight classes rather than the quality of those beaten, as you're proving right now).



Let's compare their top wins, all things considered, robberies, etc.

Pea

Chavez- #1 P4P fighter, ATG
Nelson- Top 10 P4P fighter, ATG moving up in weight
McGirt X2- Top 5 P4P in first fight, top 10 P4P in rematch
Vasquez- One of the best 154 pounders of his era, the guy that beat Winky's ass and that Terry Norris wanted no part of
Ramirez X2- One of the top, most consistent LW's of the 80's, past his prime, beaten twice very handily

Keep in mind this is not including DLH, who I and many others thought Pea beat

PBF

Hatton- Borderline top 10 P4P fighter, moving up in weight
DLH- Past prime, 154 pounder, nowhere near top 10 at the time
Corrales- Highest rated fighter on his resume, top 10 P4P
Castillo- Top LW, arguably lost the first fight
Hernandez- Past prime, top 130 pounder still

When looking at that objectively, Pea holds the clear edge.

Notice how you criticise each of the fighters that PBF fought with "after the fact" hindsight?, except you don't do that with the Pea.

History hasn't written it's final pages on Floyd's career. It has however written the final pages of Pea's.

At this moment in time, you could argue they're near equal, a loss means quite a bit to me and if we're calling ODLH past his prime at 32-33 with around 40 fights then what the hell is Chavez Jr when Pernell beat him?

What I tend to note when people attempt to refute Floyd's belonging in the elite group is that they are very selective on what they list about the other fighters, while scrutanising every little detail about Floyd.

[LightningJoe]

Calzaghe
Eubank - longtime resident
Reid - one of the best in the world at the time
Brewer - easily top 10
Mitchell - fringe top 10
Veit x2 - solid top 10
Lacy - undefeated champ
Kessler - undefeated champ
Hopkins - just about scrapes top 10
Sheika - had just beaten Glen Johnson
Woodhall - top 8 at the time
I make it 11-0.

There may be a case for Starie but no way are you getting away with Mgrchkyn. He became European champ AFTER being defeated by Joe but did precious little beforehand. Bika was a nobody. I'm not buying the Manfredo top 10 bullshit - if he was top 10 then then I'm a lumberjack.

I would listen to a case for taking Eubank out of the list but everyone else stays. No more than 11 though.

We are going on Ring rankings. Manfredo was apparantly top 10. Bika had just fought a draw with Markus Beyer in Germany, and was top 10 also.

[brooklyn1550]

I conducted some research on Ezzard Charles's record against top ten contenders and here is his record:

40 wins, 17 losses, 1 draw

[PrideOfWales]

Going on what this dude said - Ring Magazine Ratings. The only one I can't place for sure is Brewer, didn't think of Starie and don't know if he was a Top 10 so it could be as high as 15-0.

Bernard was Champion at the time he was beat

Kessler was 1st rated, Lacy was 3rd rated.

I'm pretty certain Brewer would have been top 10. Just look at the guys he fought in and around the Calzaghe fight: Ottke, Zuniga, Echols, Pemberton. Was highly competetive in all those fights. Besides, he fought like a top 5 guy the night he fought Joe.

[Asterion]

Just out of curiousity was that Puerto Rican kid Henry Bruseles that Floyd ko with a bodyshot a top ten guy when Floyd fought him?

I don't think so.

[Asterion]

Wlad--i doubt Purrity, Sanders, and Brewster were ring-ranked at the time of their fights

Wins vs. top 10: Sultan, Lamon II, Brock, Byrd II, Peter for sure

Other good wins but not sure where ranked: Mccline, Byrd I, Jefferson, Barrett, Mercer, Botha, Schultz

at least 5-0 though :nut

both thompson and povetkin are top 10 though


I think Axel Schulz and Frans Botha were ranked.

These guys where ranked:

Monte Barrett
Chris Byrd (twice)
Lamon Brewster
Sultan Ibragimov
Calvin Brock
Sam Peter
Davaryll Williamson
Jameel McCline


Wlad: 11 wins against Top10s

[JAB5239]

Notice how you criticise each of the fighters that PBF fought with "after the fact" hindsight?, except you don't do that with the Pea.

Actually he did.

History hasn't written it's final pages on Floyd's career. It has however written the final pages of Pea's.

Very true. But as of now Pea has the better resume. And going by Floyds recent desire to only take money fights instead of the toughest fights, he won't catch him before retiring.


At this moment in time, you could argue they're near equal, a loss means quite a bit to me and if we're calling ODLH past his prime at 32-33 with around 40 fights then what the hell is Chavez Jr when Pernell beat him?


Chavez was 31 and the best fighter in the world in many peoples eyes. Oscar was 34 and a part time fighter.


What I tend to note when people attempt to refute Floyd's belonging in the elite group is that they are very selective on what they list about the other fighters, while scrutanising every little detail about Floyd.


What I tend to note is that Floyd fans become very sensitive when the facts are laid before them.

[Sweet Pea]

Notice how you criticise each of the fighters that PBF fought with "after the fact" hindsight?, except you don't do that with the Pea.I did, by mentioning things such as Nelson coming up in weight to face him.


History hasn't written it's final pages on Floyd's career. It has however written the final pages of Pea's.
And the problem here is, Floyd wants to face DLH and Hatton again, instead of facing his clear biggest challenge, Cotto. That will not even come close to putting him any higher in ATG rankings. If anything, it will lower him, seeing as how he's facing fighters he's already beaten, one of them way past his prime.


At this moment in time, you could argue they're near equal, a loss means quite a bit to me and if we're calling ODLH past his prime at 32-33 with around 40 fights then what the hell is Chavez Jr when Pernell beat him?
The #1 P4P fighter in the world, while DLH wasn't top 10, or even close. That's what he was.


What I tend to note when people attempt to refute Floyd's belonging in the elite group is that they are very selective on what they list about the other fighters, while scrutanising every little detail about Floyd.
It all comes down to level of opposition, and willingness to fight the best. That is Floyd's downfall when comparing him to the ATG's. Not to mention he has not been as impressive against his top opposition(outside of the 130 pound division, where he was the truth) as other ATG's.

[Sweet Pea]

I conducted some research on Ezzard Charles's record against top ten contenders and here is his record:

40 wins, 17 losses, 1 drawI thought it was something like that. Most of those losses coming when past his prime. The level of competition he faced and beat in his LHW prime consistently is simply amazing.

[LiamE]

Anyone worked out how SRR did?

[brooklyn1550]

Anyone worked out how SRR did?

I'll have his record up in about 10 minutes.

[Sweet Pea]

Anyone worked out how SRR did?It was 43-12 or something alone those lines I believe. Maybe 46-12. Not sure.

[brooklyn1550]

Sugar Ray Robinson was 45-15-2 against top 10 opposition.

[jecxbox]

lol damn thats insane.... its like two boxing careers in one:yikes

[LiamE]

lol damn thats insane.... its like two boxing careers in one:yikes

And people still question why people rate him so highly.

[PugilisticPower]

I did, by mentioning things such as Nelson coming up in weight to face him.

And the problem here is, Floyd wants to face DLH and Hatton again, instead of facing his clear biggest challenge, Cotto. That will not even come close to putting him any higher in ATG rankings. If anything, it will lower him, seeing as how he's facing fighters he's already beaten, one of them way past his prime.

The #1 P4P fighter in the world, while DLH wasn't top 10, or even close. That's what he was.

It all comes down to level of opposition, and willingness to fight the best. That is Floyd's downfall when comparing him to the ATG's. Not to mention he has not been as impressive against his top opposition(outside of the 130 pound division, where he was the truth) as other ATG's.

Floyd can't fight and beat himself, short of doing that, the Cotto fight is the only "legacy enhancing" fight if Cotto gets past Margarito.

Floyd has the WBC belt from 130-154lbs, yet you talk about him like he's some chump who has only ever fought for money.

He's at a stage where he can fight for money, he's earnt it. Show him some respect just like I show the Pea respect, their careers are similar in my view, once you adjust the standing of Pea for the losses he had.

[PugilisticPower]

Sugar Ray Robinson was 45-15-2 against top 10 opposition.

But in the same way that people dispute the quality of the Top 10 in cases of PBF, Calzaghe and such, if we were to dispute the qualities of the guys in SRR's era, would they stack up the same

This is why I don't rate fighters from era to era, I just rate fighters of this era.

It's obvious to see why guys like De La Hoya, Hopkins, Calzaghe and PBF are rated amongst the very pinnacle today, because they've fought the toughest competition in their respective weightclasses.

[Sweet Pea]

Sugar Ray Robinson was 45-15-2 against top 10 opposition.11 of those losses I believe coming after the age of 35.

[cardstars]

Great thread! :yikes to SRR and ECs' records against top 10s

[PugilisticPower]

No doubt, SRR on sheer volume of fights will never be beaten.

But take a look at the quality of opponents in his era. There were more tomato cans and less schooled fighters.

I would state a Carlos Baldomir fighter would be good during the SRR era, in fact I know it would - Jake La Motta

"Oh but Jake was WAY better than Baldomir" - no, he wasn't.

[Sweet Pea]

"Oh but Jake was WAY better than Baldomir" - no, he wasn't.
Damn, I was going to respond thoughtfully before reading that utter nonsense.

[PugilisticPower]

Damn, I was going to respond thoughtfully before reading that utter nonsense.

Both lost about one in four fights, both had high profile wins against the undisputed champion of their division, both were renowned for their solid chin and come forward nature.

Baldomir beat Judah when he was 147 and Judah was 147.

La Motta beat SRR when he was 160 and SRR was 147.

La Motta was more famed because he managed a win over SRR but don't go pretending he's completely out of Baldomir's league, their achievements are very similar.

"Oh but SRR is way better than Judah" - comes back to an era thing, Baldomir beat the best in his division at the time, as did La Motta

What differentiates them? Historical Romance and a movie.

[PugilisticPower]

No argument for that huh?

[Sweet Pea]

Both lost about one in four fights, both had high profile wins against the undisputed champion of their divisionThis is why you think they're even, on accomplishments. When in reality, in actual ability, there's a MUCH bigger accomplishment in beating Robinson than Judah. MUCH bigger.


both were renowned for their solid chin and come forward nature.
LaMotta was known as an elite fighter, one who beat guys like Mercel Cerdan, Holman Williams, Bob Satterfield, Fritzie Zivic, Bert Lytell, Tommy Yarozs, Tony Janiro, Jackie Wilson, etc.

Aside from Judah, none of Baldomir's opposition compares really to any of those fighters, much less the top guys. Their resumes are nowhere near each other, nor are their top wins.


Baldomir beat Judah when he was 147 and Judah was 147.

La Motta beat SRR when he was 160 and SRR was 147.
As if the weight difference justifies it and makes it in any way more comparable or relevant an edge to Baldomir and his win over Judah.


La Motta was more famed because he managed a win over SRR but don't go pretending he's completely out of Baldomir's league, their achievements are very similar.
I've just given you their comparative resumes. You assumed LaMotta was only well regarded because of his win over Robinson, as Baldomir was for his win over Judah, when in fact you didn't take the time to research the rest of his resume and accomplishments, which FAR surpass Baldomir's in every way, as does his top win.


"Oh but SRR is way better than Judah" - comes back to an era thing, Baldomir beat the best in his division at the time, as did La Motta
Don't be stupid. Seriously, either take that back or don't even try to defend it. Are you actually insinuating(not in a head to head sense, but purely in terms of rating for their time) that Judah was similar to Ray Robinson for their eras?


What differentiates them? Historical Romance and a movie.
You see there why I now made that first comment? You really need to do your historical research, because you're a fish out of water here.

[PugilisticPower]

This is why you think they're even, on accomplishments. When in reality, in actual ability, there's a MUCH bigger accomplishment in beating Robinson than Judah. MUCH bigger.

-- Agree with this

LaMotta was known as an elite fighter, one who beat guys like Mercel Cerdan, Holman Williams, Bob Satterfield, Fritzie Zivic, Bert Lytell, Tommy Yarozs, Tony Janiro, Jackie Wilson, etc.

--Disagree with this, LaMotta was a much hated fighter until after his retirement, largely he built his fame on the back of the movie Raging Bull, before that, he was only known as the guy who beat SRR.

Aside from Judah, none of Baldomir's opposition compares really to any of those fighters, much less the top guys. Their resumes are nowhere near each other, nor are their top wins.

--Yet Baldomir wouldn't have lost to some of the guys that beat LaMotta, the only thing that allows you to state "Oh but none of Baldomirs competition really rates near those fighters" is your perceived nature that fighters of yesteryear are automatically better than the same callibre of opponent today.


As if the weight difference justifies it and makes it in any way more comparable or relevant an edge to Baldomir and his win over Judah.

-- Oh it doesn't? Is this why it was so hard for P4P #1 De La Hoya to go past 147-154? Is it why we consider Floyd too small for Middleweight? Weight difference doesn't matter? Hrrm.

I've just given you their comparative resumes. You assumed LaMotta was only well regarded because of his win over Robinson, as Baldomir was for his win over Judah, when in fact you didn't take the time to research the rest of his resume and accomplishments, which FAR surpass Baldomir's in every way, as does his top win.

-- You gave me your thoughts on the fighters of yesteryear, without mentioning what you thought of Baldomir nor his competition, nor their respective losses, again, I hate to pick holes but you only ever present a favourable argument for older fighters because you hold them in higher esteem, you cannot deny this.

Don't be stupid. Seriously, either take that back or don't even try to defend it. Are you actually insinuating(not in a head to head sense, but purely in terms of rating for their time) that Judah was similar to Ray Robinson for their eras?

-- H2H, Judah is nothing on Robinson, but then some of the guys that LaMotta lost too were nothing on Robinson, I'll also state that with the amount of times Robinson fought, beating him wasn't that much of an achievement when he came back and beat you several times over afterward.


You see there why I now made that first comment? You really need to do your historical research, because you're a fish out of water here.

-- You favour older fighters, because you think it gives you some holier than thou status and an ability to quote history, but fact remains, LaMotta lost to some pure tomato cans, he used to routinely say he threw the fight afterwards, funny that.. LaMotta and Baldomir are not leagues apart, not at all.

.

[Sweet Pea]

.I'll respond tomorrow, hopefully by then you'll learn to quote paragraphs so it'll be easier. But for now, let's just say the second part you quoted where you completely dismissed all the top notch and elite fighters of his day that I mentioned, instead continuing to call him overrated because of a movie and a single win was an another level of ridiculous. Regardless of how little you know of the man, you can't deny and dismiss all of his accomplishments because it doesn't fit your completely distorted reality.

[PugilisticPower]

I'll respond tomorrow, hopefully by then you'll learn to quote paragraphs so it'll be easier. But for now, let's just say the second part you quoted where you completely dismissed all the top notch and elite fighters of his day that I mentioned, instead continuing to call him overrated because of a movie and a single win was an another level of ridiculous. Regardless of how little you know of the man, you can't deny and dismiss all of his accomplishments because it doesn't fit your completely distorted reality.

Look, I could go through each of those fighters and point out their multiple losses to substandard competition, as was the nature of the day, most fighters had multiple losses and had them to guys that on record alone can only be considered bums.

I could point out the stylstic advantage of modern fighters over a LaMotta and point out that it isn't easy to box that way anymore due to the nature of weigh ins and the power being carried at each weight.

But what's the point? You have this hype in your head that older fighters are better because that's the era you possibly grew up with, the sheer fact and number and reason for this argument was that Pernell hasn't defeated as many Top 10 Ring Rated fighters as Floyd has, all the while losing several fights too.

"Oh But but but" - what else can you judge a boxer on? Taking your word for it that fighters were simply better in the older era won't do, like I said earlier, this is the reason I don't argue era vs era because you get righteous people such as yourself thinking a bit of 1960's knowledge makes you the next Max Kellerman or something.

Newsflash, buddy, you can't compare people except for WHAT THEY DID in their respective eras.

Floyd in his era has beaten more Top 10 rated fighters than Pernell did. Give it 15-20 years, you'll see some other guy just like you, rating him the best of all time and stating he's the greatest fighter because he fought such legendary tough guys as Baldomir and Judah.

Just watch.

[JAB5239]

No doubt, SRR on sheer volume of fights will never be beaten.

But take a look at the quality of opponents in his era. There were more tomato cans and less schooled fighters.

I would state a Carlos Baldomir fighter would be good during the SRR era, in fact I know it would - Jake La Motta

"Oh but Jake was WAY better than Baldomir" - no, he wasn't.

Your credibility just went down the toilet.

[PugilisticPower]

Your credibility just went down the toilet.

Why? Because I dare to compare fighters on their ACHIEVEMENTS and not some romantic notion of how good they were at the time they fought?

Yeah, that makes me completely lacking in credibility compared to you who use opinion rather than sheer fact to back up a point.

[PugilisticPower]

Anyway, this argument sidetracks the point of the thread so I'm going to pull out of it, as per usual, Mr "Only the older fighters can be considered ATG" appears whenever the question is raised about the newer generations achievements.

Seems to be considered an ATG, you've got to lose a couple fights first.

[JAB5239]

Look, I could go through each of those fighters and point out their multiple losses to substandard competition, as was the nature of the day, most fighters had multiple losses and had them to guys that on record alone can only be considered bums.

Its only substandard because you lack understanding of the era. You fail to take into consideration that many of these guys were fighting eight, ten times a year. You forget there was little footage to study opponents styles. You don't acknowledge that many of these guys HAD to fight hurt to put food on the table.



[QUOTE]
I could point out the stylstic advantage of modern fighters over a LaMotta and point out that it isn't easy to box that way anymore due to the nature of weigh ins and the power being carried at each weight.




What?



But what's the point? You have this hype in your head that older fighters are better because that's the era you possibly grew up with, the sheer fact and number and reason for this argument was that Pernell hasn't defeated as many Top 10 Ring Rated fighters as Floyd has, all the while losing several fights too.


It has been shown that Pea fought a better level of fighter than Floyd. Whitaker took on the biggest challenges.

"Oh But but but" - what else can you judge a boxer on? Taking your word for it that fighters were simply better in the older era won't do, like I said earlier, this is the reason I don't argue era vs era because you get righteous people such as yourself thinking a bit of 1960's knowledge makes you the next Max Kellerman or something.

So ignorant. From what I've read, you don't argue era because you simply lack the knowledge to do so.

Newsflash, buddy, you can't compare people except for WHAT THEY DID in their respective eras.

Yet you've tried to denigrade LaMotta even though he completly cleaned out the top 10 and still had to wait before getting his title shot. Can you say Hypocrisy?


Floyd in his era has beaten more Top 10 rated fighters than Pernell did. Give it 15-20 years, you'll see some other guy just like you, rating him the best of all time and stating he's the greatest fighter because he fought such legendary tough guys as Baldomir and Judah.

Just watch.


Not a chance.

[JAB5239]

Why? Because I dare to compare fighters on their ACHIEVEMENTS and not some romantic notion of how good they were at the time they fought?

Yeah, that makes me completely lacking in credibility compared to you who use opinion rather than sheer fact to back up a point.

No, its because you have no historic perspective or knowledge. You make assumptions without considering the variables.

[LiamE]

No doubt, SRR on sheer volume of fights will never be beaten.

But take a look at the quality of opponents in his era. There were more tomato cans and less schooled fighters.

I would state a Carlos Baldomir fighter would be good during the SRR era, in fact I know it would - Jake La Motta

"Oh but Jake was WAY better than Baldomir" - no, he wasn't.

Welcome to ESB. This is a site dedicated to boxing. Perhaps a different site may suit your needs better.

[Spitbucket]

Good thing he didn't chose PugilisticKnowledge as his moniker!

[Thread Stealer]

Felix Trinidad: 15-2


I use Ring ratings.

I'm looking at the year-end Ring ratings on boxrec and Tito's record and I can't find a record of 15-2. I got 11-2. Where are the other 4 wins?

1993: Maurice Blocker and Luis Garcia
1994: Oba Carr and Yori Boy Campas
1999: Pernell Whitaker and Oscar De La Hoya
2000: David Reid and Fernando Vargas
2001: William Joppy and Bernard Hopkins
2002: Hacine Cherifi
2004: Ricardo Mayorga
2005: Winky Wright

[JAB5239]

Good thing he didn't chose PugilisticKnowledge as his moniker!

:rofl :rofl :rofl

[Sweet Pea]

Why? Because I dare to compare fighters on their ACHIEVEMENTSThat's precisely where you completely and totally fail. I gave LaMotta's top wins outside of SRR, and it was a who's who for his era. Baldomir was nowhere near that level outside of one win over an inconsistent B level fighter in Judah. Based on accomplishments, they're likely even further apart than they are in ability, though it's a pretty big difference either way. You just have no concept of how to determine a comparison of resumes. Give me Baldomir's biggest wins and then get laughed at when compared to LaMotta's. Seriously, you're very clearly out of your area here, stop trying. You're making a fool out of yourself.

[Thread Stealer]

Against top 10 p4p fighters ranked by The Ring, these are the fighters' official records against others.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]



Oscar De La Hoya: 1-4 (0) (Whitaker, Trinidad, Mosley, Mayweather, Hopkins)
Bernard Hopkins: 3-1 (2) (Trinidad, De La Hoya, Wright, Calzaghe)
Floyd Mayweather: 2-0 (2) (Corrales, Hatton)
Pernell Whitaker: 2-2-1 (0) (Nelson, McGirt, Chavez, De La Hoya, Trinidad)
Julio Cesar Chavez 2-2-1 (1) (Taylor, Whitaker, Randall 2, De La Hoya 2x)
Roy Jones: 1-2 (0) (Toney, Tarver 2x)
Shane Mosley 2-3 (0) (De La Hoya 2x, Forrest 1x, Wright 1x, Cotto...Forrest and Wright became ranked top 10 p4p AFTER beating Shane, Cotto's been on the bottom end since mid 2007)
Ricky Hatton 1-1 (1) (Tszyu, Mayweather)
Felix Trinidad: 2-2 (1) (De La Hoya, Vargas, Hopkins, Wright....Vargas was not on it at the end of 1999 but got on in it in 2000 after beating Quartey).
Marco Antonio Barrera 3-3 (0) (J. Jones 1x, Morales 3x, Pacquiao 1x, Hamed)
James Toney 1-1 (1) (Nunn, Jones)
Manny Pacquiao: 3-1 (2) (Barrera 1x, Morales in the first 2 bouts, Marquez)
Juan Manuel Marquez 1-1-1 (0) (Pacquiao (2x), Barrera)
Erik Morales 1-4 (0) (Barrera 2 and 3, Pacquiao 3x)

[Pimp C]

Against top 10 p4p fighters ranked by The Ring, these are the fighters' official records against others.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]


Oscar De La Hoya: 1-4 (0) (Whitaker, Trinidad, Mosley, Mayweather, Hopkins)
Bernard Hopkins: 3-0 (2) (Trinidad, De La Hoya, Wright)
Floyd Mayweather: 2-0 (2) (Corrales, Hatton)
Pernell Whitaker: 2-2-1 (0) (Nelson, McGirt, Chavez, De La Hoya, Trinidad)
Julio Cesar Chavez 2-2-1 (1) (Taylor, Whitaker, Randall 2, De La Hoya 2x)
Roy Jones: 1-2 (0) (Toney, Tarver 2x)
Shane Mosley 2-3 (0) (De La Hoya 2x, Forrest 1x, Wright 1x, Cotto...Forrest and Wright became ranked top 10 p4p AFTER beating Shane, Cotto's been on the bottom end since mid 2007)
Ricky Hatton 1-1 (1) (Tszyu, Mayweather)
Felix Trinidad: 2-2 (1) (De La Hoya, Vargas, Hopkins, Wright....Vargas was not on it at the end of 1999 but got on in it in 2000 after beating Quartey).
Marco Antonio Barrera 3-3 (0) (J. Jones 1x, Morales 3x, Pacquiao 1x, Hamed)
James Toney 1-1 (1) (Nunn, Jones)
Manny Pacquiao: 2-1 (2) (Barrera 1x, Morales in the first 2 bouts)
Juan Manuel Marquez 1-0-1 (0) (Pacquiao, Barrera)
Erik Morales 1-4 (0) (Barrera 2 and 3, Pacquiao 3x)
Good stuff!

[Thread Stealer]

^^^^

Those records are a couple months old, before Pac-JMM 2 and Hops-Calz.

[Asterion]

Against top 10 p4p fighters ranked by The Ring, these are the fighters' official records against others.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Oscar De La Hoya: 1-4 (0) (Whitaker, Trinidad, Mosley, Mayweather, Hopkins)
Bernard Hopkins: 3-0 (2) (Trinidad, De La Hoya, Wright)
Floyd Mayweather: 2-0 (2) (Corrales, Hatton)
Pernell Whitaker: 2-2-1 (0) (Nelson, McGirt, Chavez, De La Hoya, Trinidad)
Julio Cesar Chavez 2-2-1 (1) (Taylor, Whitaker, Randall 2, De La Hoya 2x)
Roy Jones: 1-2 (0) (Toney, Tarver 2x)
Shane Mosley 2-3 (0) (De La Hoya 2x, Forrest 1x, Wright 1x, Cotto...Forrest and Wright became ranked top 10 p4p AFTER beating Shane, Cotto's been on the bottom end since mid 2007)
Ricky Hatton 1-1 (1) (Tszyu, Mayweather)
Felix Trinidad: 2-2 (1) (De La Hoya, Vargas, Hopkins, Wright....Vargas was not on it at the end of 1999 but got on in it in 2000 after beating Quartey).
Marco Antonio Barrera 3-3 (0) (J. Jones 1x, Morales 3x, Pacquiao 1x, Hamed)
James Toney 1-1 (1) (Nunn, Jones)
Manny Pacquiao: 2-1 (2) (Barrera 1x, Morales in the first 2 bouts)
Juan Manuel Marquez 1-0-1 (0) (Pacquiao, Barrera)
Erik Morales 1-4 (0) (Barrera 2 and 3, Pacquiao 3x)



:good

[Thread Stealer]

^^^^

Those records are a couple months old, before Pac-JMM 2 and Hops-Calz.

I updated them.