Pick A Featherweight to step up to Lighweight To Take Beat Duran

[McGrain]

Has a feather ever boxed who could deal with Duran at light?

[Manassa]

I don't think there was a featherweight who could have beaten Duran. One could argue in favour of Henry Armstrong, but he was barely a featherweight and more of a lightweight anyway - but I don't think he'd beat Duran. Duran's right uppercuts to the body (a largely unnoticed Duran technique) would slow Armstrong down for perhaps the first time in his career and pave the way for more punishing blows to the head. I don't think steady, bombarding pressure is the way to beat Duran, who was probably the craftiest infighter of all time, and whose power, stamina and strength could rival Armstrong's. Basically, it's Duran's superior skill that wins it. By decision.

A fighter who matched Duran for 'skill' and might have even been superior is Willie Pep. Having a hunch that Duran had problems with movers, it's not completely out of the question to imagine a wizard like Pep scraping a victory. But in all seriousness, what has he got to offer? It's not like Duran is a mere bull who was susceptible to being outsmarted - he roughly equalled Pep for agility, stamina, speed and skill, but was bigger, stronger, harder punching and more durable. Pep has the style here, but not the substance. I would expect a raging Duran to stop Pep in the late rounds.

[McGrain]

I don't think there was a featherweight who could have beaten Duran. One could argue in favour of Henry Armstrong, but he was barely a featherweight and more of a lightweight anyway - but I don't think he'd beat Duran. Duran's right uppercuts to the body (a largely unnoticed Duran technique) would slow Armstrong down for perhaps the first time in his career and pave the way for more punishing blows to the head. I don't think steady, bombarding pressure is the way to beat Duran, who was probably the craftiest infighter of all time, and whose power, stamina and strength could rival Armstrong's. Basically, it's Duran's superior skill that wins it. By decision.

A fighter who matched Duran for 'skill' and might have even been superior is Willie Pep. Having a hunch that Duran had problems with movers, it's not completely out of the question to imagine a wizard like Pep scraping a victory. But in all seriousness, what has he got to offer? It's not like Duran is a mere bull who was susceptible to being outsmarted - he roughly equalled Pep for agility, stamina, speed and skill, but was bigger, stronger, harder punching and more durable. Pep has the style here, but not the substance. I would expect a raging Duran to stop Pep in the late rounds.


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This is what I would have said, if he hadn't said it.

[Manassa]

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This is what I would have said, if he hadn't said it.

Liar. You would have said 'Um Bongo.'

[McGrain]

Liar. You would have said 'Um Bongo.'


:lol:

They drink it in the Congo etc.

Anyway, great post.

[Manassa]

Other options like Sandy Saddler and Kid Chocolate just wouldn't have worked. Saddler might have been rough enough to give Duran something to think about, but Chocolate would be totally outgunned (which is a shame to say because he was magnificent, if unfulfilled). Salvador Sanchez doesn't seem like a bad choice, but this is Duran. He had too much of everything.

[Robbi]

A fighter who matched Duran for 'skill' and might have even been superior is Willie Pep. Having a hunch that Duran had problems with movers, it's not completely out of the question to imagine a wizard like Pep scraping a victory. But in all seriousness, what has he got to offer? It's not like Duran is a mere bull who was susceptible to being outsmarted - he roughly equalled Pep for agility, stamina, speed and skill, but was bigger, stronger, harder punching and more durable. Pep has the style here, but not the substance. I would expect a raging Duran to stop Pep in the late rounds.

Whitaker has the style and the substance.

[Manassa]

Whitaker has the style and the substance.

You know I disagree with that.

[Vantage_West]

Whitaker has the style and the substance.i totally agree with that almost down to the bone he was quick was hard to hit great on the inside great on the outside was the same hieght and reach of duran that bothers me:think becuase duran may looked like slow and ponderous against speedstars but he was no fool and at lightwieght he was damn quick

[Street Lethal]

Henry Armstrong is the best bet.

[rekcutnevets]

I agree with I am Legend. I don't think Saddler can do it, but he probably has the best chance.

[sweet_scientist]

Could be an absolute longshot, but how about Young Griffo?

He stepped up from the featherweight ranks and got the better of the two best lightweights of his day, Jack McAuliffe and Kid Lavigne (got dudded both times though with the decisions). He held his own in a bout with Joe Gans as well, (though he was pummeled in susbequent bouts near the tail end of his career). Griffo had a great defense, and was pretty rugged as well, so perhaps he could do the unthinkable.

[C. M. Clay II]

Well, the best way to do this is to look at the style that gave Duran the most trouble. Obviously, Duran's worst nightmare throughout his entire career was Thomas Hearns, so it would be a featherweight who resembled him the most. The closest thing to that at featherweight IMO is Sandy Saddler. He was 5'-8", which is freakishly tall for a featherweight. He had a telephone poll-like reach, and tremendous power like Hearns, so if I were to pick a featherweight to beat Duran it would be Sandy Saddler. Now, whether he would beat Duran is another story.:good

[sweet_scientist]

Well, the best way to do this is to look at the style that gave Duran the most trouble. Obviously, Duran's worst nightmare throughout his entire career was Thomas Hearns, so it would be a featherweight who resembled him the most. The closest thing to that at featherweight IMO is Sandy Saddler. He was 5'-8", which is freakishly tall for a featherweight. He had a telephone poll-like reach, and tremendous power like Hearns, so if I were to pick a featherweight to beat Duran it would be Sandy Saddler. Now, whether he would beat Duran is another story.:good

Alexis Arguello is another close match, especially in so far as height and punching power goes. And he has great lightweight credentials to boot.

[C. M. Clay II]

Alexis Arguello is another close match, especially in so far as height and punching power goes. And he has great lightweight credentials to boot.

I doubt it. If Alexis couldn't beat Pryor, then he has little chace of beating Duran.

[sweet_scientist]

I doubt it. If Alexis couldn't beat Pryor, then he has little chace of beating Duran.

Well EVERY feather has little chance of beating Duran. That's hardly the point. I'm just saying, stylistically he matches Hearns in certain respects.

And in any case, the Pryor fight was held at 140, not at 135, where Alexis was better.

[C. M. Clay II]

Well EVERY feather has little chance of beating Duran. That's hardly the point. I'm just saying, stylistically he matches Hearns in certain respects.

And in any case, the Pryor fight was held at 140, not at 135, where Alexis was better.

Still, Pryor is just not in the same class as Duran. Head to head Duran smashes Pryor, so I can't see Arguello succeding with Duran, though he failed with Pryor.

[Beebs]

Sandy Saddler.

Motherfucker, beat me to it.

It's gotta be somebody with KO power I would think, as a smaller slickster type would probably be pressured into defeat.

Maybe Naz on a big longshot?

[sweet_scientist]

Still, Pryor is just not in the same class as Duran. Head to head Duran smashes Pryor, so I can't see Arguello succeding with Duran, though he failed with Pryor.

Yeah probably not, but at the same time, what chance is a feather that lost to George Aroujo, Paddy DeMarco and Del Flanagan? I'd give Alexis a better shot than I would Sandy.

[jyuza]

I can't see a featherweight moving up to beat a prime Roberto Duran.

Maybe Henry but even he would have a hard time (well who won't ?) and I don't give him the edge at lightweight.

I don't know, really.

[janitor]

One person worth mentioning is Young Corbett II.

He could be a foil for Duran both stylisticaly and psychologicaly.

[fists of fury]

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This is what I would have said, if he hadn't said it.

So this thread was designed to pump up Pep? Is this a reaction to China_Chin_Joe's comments? :think

[divac]

Alexis Arguello is another close match, especially in so far as height and punching power goes. And he has great lightweight credentials to boot.

I like Arguello's chances at 135 lbs.

It's a pick'em fight imo. I dont think Duran ever faced a lightweight with the power that Arguello possesed.
......and Arguello had skill and stamina to go along with that power.

As was said, Pryor beat Arguello at 140 lbs, but when you look at even that fight, Pryor in great portions of that fight had to resort to being the boxer who backed up and used lateral movements.
Pryor was more unconventional and less predictable with his herky jerky type style and punching off the wrong foot at times.

I dont believe Duran would fight the way Pryor did to beffudle Arguello at times......Duran would use alot of defensive manuevers of course, but I dont think he'd take a backward step and use laterals the way Pryor did.

Arguello has a great chance, as great as any featherweight I could think of.

[McGrain]

So this thread was designed to pump up Pep? Is this a reaction to China_Chin_Joe's comments? :think

No; i've done quite a few of these "step up" threads.

I'm interested to see all the guys picking Saddler.

[China_hand_Joe]

Well, the best way to do this is to look at the style that gave Duran the most trouble. Obviously, Duran's worst nightmare throughout his entire career was Thomas Hearns, so it would be a featherweight who resembled him the most. The closest thing to that at featherweight IMO is Sandy Saddler. He was 5'-8", which is freakishly tall for a featherweight. He had a telephone poll-like reach, and tremendous power like Hearns, so if I were to pick a featherweight to beat Duran it would be Sandy Saddler. Now, whether he would beat Duran is another story.:goodSurely a lanky featherweight stepping up is competely differerent to Duran stepping up to to face a very tall middleweight, no featherweight could 'Hearns' Duran!

[mcvey]

Has a feather ever boxed who could deal with Duran at light?
I cant see it ,but the best chances might go to Mcgovern,Saldivar,Saddler,Arguello,and Griffo.Driscoll may have done well early but he lacked Peps elusive foot work so Duran would get inside his left sooner or later and maul him.

[NickHudson]

:yikes

i totally agree with that almost down to the bone he was quick was hard to hit great on the inside great on the outside was the same hieght and reach of duran that bothers me:think becuase duran may looked like slow and ponderous against speedstars but he was no fool and at lightwieght he was damn quick

[Minotauro]

Henry Armstrong was the first name that came to me he was a beast at featherweight although Saddler has a good chance too great power, chin and is as rough maybe even rougher then Duran.

[Robbi]

Whitaker is a better bet than Arguello.

[achillesthegreat]

Maybe Pep.

[Manassa]

Whitaker is a better bet than Arguello.

Why do you keep bringing up Whitaker? He wasn't a featherweight.

[JohnThomas1]

Whilst i would pick against him a very well deserved shout here is Arguello, who made a great lightweight. His biggest trouble vs Duran is that stylistically he's going to struggle. He has the power and skills however to be a very worthy challenger.

[Manassa]

Can't forget Tony Canzoneri as a worthy mention. But I still don't think any of them could do it.

[JohnThomas1]

Well, the best way to do this is to look at the style that gave Duran the most trouble. Obviously, Duran's worst nightmare throughout his entire career was Thomas Hearns, so it would be a featherweight who resembled him the most. The closest thing to that at featherweight IMO is Sandy Saddler. He was 5'-8", which is freakishly tall for a featherweight. He had a telephone poll-like reach, and tremendous power like Hearns, so if I were to pick a featherweight to beat Duran it would be Sandy Saddler. Now, whether he would beat Duran is another story.:good

An eye opening post. Saddler had tremendous power like Hearns? Saddler is 30 pounds south of where Hearn's demolished Duran and his power compared to Hearn's without P4P consideration is utterly impotent. Even beside the fact is that Arguello is 2 inches taller than Saddler! I would also bet that Arguello would hit harder at 135 too, not like he didn't prove his power there. Also i would think Arguello fought more from the outside than Saddler. Alexis is a far far better shout than Saddler. Power alone isn't beating Duran. Tho rangy there's no guarantee Saddler would carry his power all the way to 135, we don't need to question that of Arguello.

[China_hand_Joe]

Joan Guzman has a better chance than Saddler to be honest, Saddler doesn't really have an real advantaged at all over Duran

[Duodenum]

Can't forget Tony Canzoneri as a worthy mention. But I still don't think any of them could do it.I'm with you on Canzoneri. Tremendously resourceful boxer, but Duran may have been the greatest LW of all time (and in my estimation, the P4P greatest since SRR). Tony peaked at a time when gloves were smaller, and thus, bodypunching much more effective. Canzoneri could have dealt with that from Duran, especially with his low guard. However, it's hard for me to envision any featherweight taking the measure of Cholo.

[Manassa]

Joan Guzman has a better chance than Saddler to be honest, Saddler doesn't really have an real advantaged at all over Duran

And Guzman does?

[China_hand_Joe]

And Guzman does?Guzman at least has speed, Saddler was weaker than Duran in just about every area -fullstop-

[Stewbear]

I agree Arguello would be the best bet, and wouldnt take the Pryor fights as much.
Still Duran beats him in the end, but Arguello has a good chance

[Stonehands89]

Flash Elorde has a good chance, relatively speaking. I'd say he has a far better chance than Arguello or Armstrong or Sandler.

He was called the "Sugar Ray of Southpaws" in his day and probably had Sandy Saddler's number, beating him once and winning the rematch before being stopped by an inch and a fourth long cut. He could hit, was physically strong enough to rise in weight and maintain enough effectiveness to beat LWs like Ismael Laguna (a hero of baby Duran). The only man to really stop him was Ortiz and that was 15 years in, aside from a fluke 10th round KO in year one.

He could also deal with boxers and swarming bangers. Duran is both, but Elorde has a good resume. He kept Copeland off balance with superb movement and footwork and relied on a serious jab and serious uppercuts. When it came time to set down and punch he could, and down went Copeland in round 13.

Duran wasn't all that experienced with southpaws and Elorde is one of the best. He's got strength, power, good skills and mobility, but was also capable of herky-jerky stylistics.

[Drew101]

Longshot choice: Freddie Miller.

Stopped once in 243 fights, indicating that he could take a pretty good shot. Regarded as one of the slickest, quickest southpaws of the thirties. And, he was a hell of a bodypuncher. I think if he stepped up, he could present a pretty interesting challenge to Manos De Pierdra.

[mcvey]

Longshot choice: Freddie Miller.

Stopped once in 243 fights, indicating that he could take a pretty good shot. Regarded as one of the slickest, quickest southpaws of the thirties. And, he was a hell of a bodypuncher. I think if he stepped up, he could present a pretty interesting challenge to Manos De Pierdra.
Especially if he could induce Duran to do the "business"as he did Bat Battalino.

[Manassa]

Guzman at least has speed, Saddler was weaker than Duran in just about every area -fullstop-

So is Guzman. Easily.

[doublesuited]

I can see Jason Litzau and Roberto Duran violently trading punches until finally Litzau emerges victorious.

[Manassa]

How come, you said Pep might be able to but basically due to his size wouldn't. So why not Whitaker? I've seen your analysis, but why do you think Pep would stand a better chance than Whitaker P4P?

Anyways the only one I could think of would be Sanchez, but I'd still go with Duran.

Pep fought nothing like Whitaker, that's why.

[Robbi]

Pep fought nothing like Whitaker, that's why.

Whitaker was a better all round fighter than Pep. And I'm not going to get suckered into Pep having over 200 fights, fighting more often, also being an old timer, and viewed as a great defensive fighter, thus he must be better than Whitaker in terms of skill.

Whitaker was a mover in his prime, but sometimes he could stand at close quarters and exchange punches yet still show good defense. Watch his fights with Nelson and Ramirez 1, and you'll see he could box and constantly move round after round.

I'm pretty confrident you'll say Pep could do more in the ring than Whitaker, and was more skilled.

[Manassa]

I'm pretty confrident you'll say Pep could do more in the ring than Whitaker, and was more skilled.

How did you guess? :good

[Stonehands89]

I don't think Duran smashes Pryor at all. In fact, I think Pryor might actually beat Duran at 140. His style could give Duran problems as Duran would actually be out-pressure for the first time in his career. That would be an awesome fight.

Many agree with you that Pryor would do well against Duran. I doubt it very much. Getting reckless, as Pryor was apt to do, against a more highly skilled and efficient offense, defensive specialist, and counter puncher in Duran is suicidal. As a matter of fact, Arguello's careful conservativism would give him a better chance and I don't give him much of a chance either against Duran at LW or SLW.

It's interesting, Duran had too much aggression for Arguello, but had too much defensive and countering skill for Pryor. At least in my estimation.

[Boro chris]

Motherfucker, beat me to it.

It's gotta be somebody with KO power I would think, as a smaller slickster type would probably be pressured into defeat.

Maybe Naz on a big longshot?

Nah! He was titchy for a feather, far to small at lightweight.

Azumah Nelson?

[red cobra]

There isnt one. Not ever.

[Duodenum]

Many agree with you that Pryor would do well against Duran. I doubt it very much. Getting reckless, as Pryor was apt to do, against a more highly skilled and efficient offense, defensive specialist, and counter puncher in Duran is suicidal. As a matter of fact, Arguello's careful conservativism would give him a better chance and I don't give him much of a chance either against Duran at LW or SLW.

It's interesting, Duran had too much aggression for Arguello, but had too much defensive and countering skill for Pryor. At least in my estimation.Right. Even if Pryor was impervious, so would Duran have been at that weight. Assuming this goes 15 rounds, it comes down to hitting and not being hit. The bodypunching, low profiled Duran would have a huge edge on the high flying, chin exposed, headhunting Hawk. He'd also have a better chance of producing an off-balance and points building KD or two on Pryor.

[Robbi]

How did you guess? :good

Your head is wasted with the old timers.

[Manassa]

Your head is wasted with the old timers.

I consider myself a realist.

[Robbi]

I consider myself a realist.

:good

[George W Hedge]

Was gonna say armstrong but he fought in several weight classes (Id also pick duran to beat armstrong on pts anyway)

Willie pep was probably the best ever fwt but durans power takes him out late on after a frustrating beginning.

:good

[JohnThomas1]

IMO Armstrong is easily the best bet here, easily. I cannot see Arguello beating Duran due to stylistic drama's, including the fact that Duran has a cast iron jaw, especially at 135. Armstrong is very close to peak at 135 IMO and is very much a live one in this bout. If any 135 (and up from Feather etc etc tho i am speaking of any 135 regardless) can live with Duran inside it is Hank. A teeny bit less refined but busier with indominatable stamina. Some might not agree but i would only have Duran a 6-5 fave here, 7-5 at best. This is close.

[buzzsaw]

Duran was just too good and people could research the entire history of the feathers but none could have beaten the greatest lightweight I ever saw. And I'm an Arguello fan. Alexis might even drop him but he wouldn't stop him.