Sugar Ray Robinson v Roy Jones @ 168

[McGrain]

At 160 i pick Sugar.

What about 168? These guys were both special.

Sugar isn't one half the puncher he was at Welter up here I bet.

Who takes it?

Why?

[China_hand_Joe]

I don't fancy anybody to beat something like Jones away from their perfect weight, I take Jones in fairly orthodox performance at 160

[Amsterdam]

I take Roy at 160 and 168 by KO.

[mightyd40]

yeah i dont think ray had enough at 160 to beat roy and would go with rjj by decision and at 168 jones probably would have knocked him out

[JohnThomas1]

Robinson by KO.

[Senya13]

Jones was better than SRR in all departments at either 160 or 168.

[JohnThomas1]

Jones was better than SRR in all departments at either 160 or 168.

How bout chin and heart?

[McGrain]

How bout chin and heart?

Add technique, hooks, footspeed, stamina, workrate, adaptability, ring generalship...

[Senya13]

How many times was Robinson dropped at 160 and 168? What are reasons to doubt Jones' heart at these weights? All the rest (technique, hooks, footspeed, stamina, workrate, adaptability, ring generalship) Jones was better than 160/168 Robinson too, rather easily.

[fists of fury]

I had a good chuckle when I read the thread title. I knew Senya would be here fasterthanyoucouldreadthis. Anyhow...

Difficult fight for Robinson - very difficult. Jones had unbelievable speed, reactions and very good power at 160. Ray tended to be a little erratic at 160, but on his best night at the weight he was absolute hell.

Bold prediction...Robinson is surprised to find himself outsped by Roy and catching more leather than he'd like. He's behind after 8 rounds.
Ever unpredictable, Ray relies on his chin and decides to turn slugger, actively seeking a slugfest with Roy.
He catches even more punches, but he starts landing more frequently too and he forces Jones against the ropes, where he lays on thick leather as Jones tries to smother and counter him. Ray's aggression and precise punching pays as he manages to tag Jones with some good, solid shots to the head.
The pressure begins to tell and Ray starts really reaching Roy, and in the tenth he drops Jones twice forcing a stoppage.

[JohnThomas1]

How many times was Robinson dropped at 160 and 168?

How many times did Robinson fight there? At what stage of his career did he fight there? What was his best quality of opposition there like? Do you think Roy could fight ALL the guys SRR did at 160 up and not only beat every single one every single time, but never hit the floor? With the limited time between bouts Robinson had as well?

Have a look at the broader picture.

[dmt]

I think this is a tough fight, i really don't know but my guess is Jones wins at 168 due to better power and speed. but i'm still not sure.

But if u take the best version of Robbi at 160 then i think he beats Jones at 160.

[Rumsfeld]

I'll take Robinson at either weight class.

[Senya13]

Artie Levine dropped Robinson hard (possible for longer than 10 seconds) at middleweight limit when Ray was 25 years old, in his prime.
Rocky Graziano was a small middleweight at the end of his career. Robinson was 30 years old.
Rocky Castellani was never a puncher, this didn't stop him from dropping 34-years old Robinson for a 9-count.
That's not counting welterweight knockdowns and many fights where he was hurt.

[JohnThomas1]

Artie Levine dropped Robinson hard (possible for longer than 10 seconds) at middleweight limit when Ray was 25 years old, in his prime.


And there we have our first big plus for Robinson, the ability to take a punch and come back to win after duress. Something Roy never proved he could definitely do. You see, when we match him against a guy like Robinson he's not going to be pitching no shutout, and he sure as hell isn't going to avoid being hit. Robinson's speed and sharpness is going to put Roy to the acid test. This isn't no green Hopkins or stylistic joy like Toney. Me, i'll take Robinson's proven ability under fire, i think he has all the tools to put roy to the sword. Personally i think Hagler and Monzon would find Jones harder than Robinson. Robinson's speed at his 160 best is what is going to find Roy out. Many seem to forget just how fast he was, even at 160, as Johnny Garfield will tell you.

[Senya13]

Ability to take a punch? You mean the one he showed when he was dropped by Mitsos Grispos 1-14-3? As for getting dropped by Castellani, that's as bad as getting dropped by Sven Ottke (something people hold against Mundine). Dropped by non-puncher LaMotta.
Plus innumerable times when Robinson was hurt, like I said. He was way too easy to be hurt or staggered.
That's really great ability to take a punch.
As for speed, Robinson's speed at 160 was never anything special. Even at welterweight there were several fighters faster than him.

[mr. magoo]

[quote=Senya13]Ability to take a punch? You mean the one he showed when he was dropped by Mitsos Grispos 1-14-3? As for getting dropped by Castellani, that's as bad as getting dropped by Sven Ottke (something people hold against Mundine). Dropped by non-puncher LaMotta.
Plus innumerable times when Robinson was hurt, like I said. He was way too easy to be hurt or staggered.
That's really great ability to take a punch.


Dude,

Robinson was stopped only once in 200 pro fights, and that was a TKO against an all time great light heavyweight, when he was past his prime, in the 14th of a 15 rounder ( something Jones never had the pleasure of participating in. ) So what if he was staggered or dropped a few times in his career? When you get into the ring 200 times in your life, it's bound to happen from time to time. Personally, I have no qualms about his durabilty.


As for speed, Robinson's speed at 160 was never anything special. Even at welterweight there were several fighters faster than him.


That's highly debatable.

[Senya13]

Because Robinson didn't face any great punchers, that's why he was stopped only once. Levine and Graziano are the hardest-hitting fighters he met in his career, both dropped him. There are more than plenty of facts that leave us doubting his ability to withstand Jones' punching power at 160 and 168, and there are zero facts that leave us doubting Jones' same ability at 160 or 168. Jones would be by far the greatest puncher Robinson faced in his career, while Jones faced bigger punchers than Robinson and didn't show no signs of being hurt (until he was old and far past his prime).

[mr. magoo]

]Because Robinson didn't face any great punchers, that's why he was stopped only once.

The hell he didn't.

Levine and Graziano are the hardest-hitting fighters he met in his career, both dropped him.

While a prime Jones was outclassed by Montell Griffin, who wasn't even remotely in Robinson's league, and please don't argue that he was, because it'l be even more embarrasing than the time you called Shavers a journeyman.

There are more than plenty of facts that leave us doubting his ability to withstand Jones' punching power at 160 and 168,

Because he was dropped a few times in 200 pro fights? Big f----ng deal. Anyone who has 200 career bouts is occassionaly going to get hurt, staggered, cut, dropped whatever. In 200 fights, Robinson was only TKO'd once by an all time great light heavyweight, when he was past his prime, and like I said, it was in the 14th round. Jones, on the otherhand fought only 56 times in his career, and was stopped on two occassions. Once came in the 2nd round, while the other came in the 9th. Both losses came against guys who were not exactly all time great material as Joey Maxim was who stopped Jones. You pointed out that Roy was past his prime, and I agree that he was, but you make no comcession for the fact that Ray was past his against Maxim. As usual you're inonsistant in your debating methods.

Jones would be by far the greatest puncher Robinson faced in his career,

" By far " is a rather strong expression, and if power is Jones main asset in this fight, then I find it rather minescule compared to Robinson's all time great abilty as probably the best ring technician in history, wouldn't you think?

[Senya13]

Jones outclassed by Griffin? Where did see such fight? Marty Servo, Jose Basora, Georgie Abrams, Henry Brimm were light years behind of Jones, which didn't stop them from giving Sugar very tough close fights.

Guys with rock solid chins didn't get dropped here and there, including by non-punchers. Robinson's chin could be dented, a couple of times only lack of finishing abilities of his opponents allowed him to survive. Jones' punching power and finishing abilities at 160 and 168 were top notch, much better than anyone's Robinson faced. It's not like Ray couldn't be outboxed either, Tommy Bell and Bernard Docusen outboxed him early, although they faded as the fight went on.

By far suits Jones well, as he was a fearsome puncher at both 160 and 168, Top 3 hardest-hitter at 168 and at least a Top 10 hardest hitter at 160. The hardest hitter Robinson faced at middleweight was a small natural 154-pounder Rocky Graziano.
As for "best ring technician in history", you should watch more Robinson's fights, if you can get a hold of his 1940's fights you will see him relying a lot on his natural abilities (footwork, handspeed, angles) than on technical correctness.

[Stonehands89]

Senya, which of Robinson's fights from the 1940s do you have?

[Senya13]

I only have highlights, same as everyone else.
It was especially apparent in the amateurs (Valentine, Nonella, Ancona), but it can be seen in his pro bouts as well.
1946-02-05 Tony Riccio
1946-02-27 Cliff Beckett
1946-03-04 Sammy Angott
1947-05-16 Georgie Abrams
1949-06-07 Freddy Flores

[Stewbear]

Robinson for sure just if would be on points on KO I think if he ran Roy could survive but with his very poor punch resistance who knows

[achillesthegreat]

Roy all the way. Ray would take his licks but he hasn't go much for Roy at 168.

[Bad_Intentions]

very hard fight. robinson @ middleweight wasn't really impressive.

i would give roy a UD.

[Nemesis]

Artie Levine dropped Robinson hard (possible for longer than 10 seconds) at middleweight limit when Ray was 25 years old, in his prime.

Lurch,
he weighed 150lbs against Levine, not exactly a bonafide middleweight

In answer to this thread, I'd go with Jones at 168 too, a bridge too far perhaps

[McGrain]

How many times was Robinson dropped at 160 and 168? What are reasons to doubt Jones' heart at these weights? All the rest (technique, hooks, footspeed, stamina, workrate, adaptability, ring generalship) Jones was better than 160/168 Robinson too, rather easily.

This is beyond nonsense.

What hook has Jones ever thrown that compares to Robinsons best left hooks?

Where has he proved his stamina and workrate to the degree that Robinson has in multiple fights - but in LaMotta VI more than any other single fight?

Where is Jones technique? Where is it now that he is not protected by his great speed and we would see? It is non-exsistant. Bernard Hopkins: "Roy Jones is a great Hall of Famer...But Roy never had the basics.

Floyd Matweather, a big fan, says something similair.

Apparantly you know better than these two.

Having read your statement, and I'm paraphrasing, "Roy Jones easily has better techniqhe than Robinson" I am quite happy to throw out everything you have to say on this matter as ridiculous.

[McGrain]

I think this is a tough fight, i really don't know but my guess is Jones wins at 168 due to better power and speed. but i'm still not sure.

But if u take the best version of Robbi at 160 then i think he beats Jones at 160.

This is probably how I see it, though I believe that even at 168 Robinson may be able to find a way to force Roy to force the action; if that happens he has a chance at 168.

Interesting how everyone saying, "Robinson at both weights" says just that then dissapears.

Apart from Senya who has scaled new heights for the totally bizzare.

[mcvey]

Artie Levine dropped Robinson hard (possible for longer than 10 seconds) at middleweight limit when Ray was 25 years old, in his prime.
Rocky Graziano was a small middleweight at the end of his career. Robinson was 30 years old.
Rocky Castellani was never a puncher, this didn't stop him from dropping 34-years old Robinson for a 9-count.
That's not counting welterweight knockdowns and many fights where he was hurt.
But not kod ,as was Jones ,TWICE.

[Nemesis]

Artie Levine dropped Robinson hard (possible for longer than 10 seconds) at middleweight limit when Ray was 25 years old, in his prime.
Rocky Graziano was a small middleweight at the end of his career. Robinson was 30 years old.
Rocky Castellani was never a puncher, this didn't stop him from dropping 34-years old Robinson for a 9-count.
That's not counting welterweight knockdowns and many fights where he was hurt.

Is that not a testament to Robinson' recuperative powers, when once hurt he could turn the fight on its head.

How long did it take Roy to recuperate against Tarver II & G Johnson about 10 - 20 minutes each time, it kinda puts that 9-10 seconds (against Levine) into perspective doesnt it?


What is a great shame with regards to RJJ, is that your blind fascination with him prevents anyone else being able to indulge in the vast talents that Jones had

[ironchamp]

Roy Jones by KO

[Senya13]

Is that not a testament to Robinson' recuperative powers, when once hurt he could turn the fight on its head.
But what that tells us about his chin? With Jones it will be fatal mistake, as he not only hits harder, but is a MUCH better finisher than all the guys are mentioned.

How long did it take Roy to recuperate against Tarver II & G Johnson about 10 - 20 minutes each time, it kinda puts that 9-10 seconds (against Levine) into perspective doesnt it?
Have you even seen the Tarver II fight? Have you not seen the rubber match as well?

What is a great shame with regards to RJJ, is that your blind fascination with him prevents anyone else being able to indulge in the vast talents that Jones had
A shame is everyone here statings things that don't correlate with facts, and use multiple excuses and wishful thinking for Robinson instead, because he's the more popular guy.

[Senya13]

But not kod ,as was Jones ,TWICE.
The situation with Artie Levine fight was worse than Tarver-II, Robinson reportedly lying on the canvas LONGER than 10 seconds and getting up at least as hurt as Jones was, but the rules back then were more democratic in giving a fighter a chance, than they are in our time. Jones got up before the count of ten, unlike Robinson.

[Senya13]

What hook has Jones ever thrown that compares to Robinsons best left hooks?
Thulane Malinga.

Where has he proved his stamina and workrate to the degree that Robinson has in multiple fights - but in LaMotta VI more than any other single fight?
If you have even seen his fights outside of Hopkins one (where he fought with injured hand), you wouldn't have such questions. He was as fresh at the end of the bout as he was in the 1st in almost all of his bouts, and he had a very good workrate at 160 and 168, throwing a hundred punches per round wasn't a problem for him at all.

Where is Jones technique? Where is it now that he is not protected by his great speed and we would see?
Have you seen his last fights? If you don't see his technique there, my advise would be either to get yourself a bigger monitor or to go check with ophtalmologist.

It is non-exsistant. Bernard Hopkins: "Roy Jones is a great Hall of Famer...But Roy never had the basics.
They aren't very friendly about each other.

Floyd Matweather, a big fan, says something similair.
Sr or Jr?

Apparantly you know better than these two.
Apparently I have argued it here on multiple examples that anyone who has his fights can see.

Having read your statement, and I'm paraphrasing, "Roy Jones easily has better techniqhe than Robinson" I am quite happy to throw out everything you have to say on this matter as ridiculous.
Go watch some Robinson fights, in particular how he fights off the ropes, how he fights in the clinches, how he doesn't always keep his hands up, how he lunges with hooks without protecting his chin with the other hand, etc etc. Maybe I studied Robinson's fights not as thoroughly as Jones, but enough to say that he wasn't the perfect technician some people here consider him to be, he had a lot of flaws if we going to apply the same standards as we do for Jones.

[hdog]

There's one huge difference between Robinson and Jones - Robinson was a fighter, Jones not so much.

[Sizzle]

It's not like Robinson looked like a fish out of water at 175lbs.

I think he'd prove to be one of the greatest at 168lbs also.

He'd demolish Roy IMO - Letting Robinson punch from the outside was a big no-no, most of the guys that beat him had to fight aggressively and maul him to make it an inside slugfest - Basilio, LaMotta, Fullmer etc.

Ray Robinsons timing was absolutely superb, he wasted few punches, this would be the key to defeating Roy who only had the advantage in the speed and footwork department. He'd fight the same way he did against Hopkins, but Robinson was faster, more powerful, threw better combinations, and moved more fluidly than Bernard.

Trying to marginally outpoint Robinson is a big no-no for these reasons.

It'd be the Tarver fight all over again.

[Street Lethal]

Robinson fought almost 50 fights against opponents weighing more than 160 pounds and by count he only lost five of them. With the exception of his loss to Jake Lamotta, Robinson lost four fights after he had lost the middleweight champiponship for the fifth time. Robinson was over 40 years old at the time. The only time Robinson was stopped fighting an opponent weighing more than 160 pounds was when he quit against Joe Maxim. In fact, that was the only time Robinson was ever stopped in his career.

Robinson fought more than 150 opponents weighing more than the welterweight limit. In his prime he lost only twice to opponents over welterweight (to Jake LaMotta and Randy Turpin).

I just don't see Robinson getting knocked out by Tarver. I think Robinson has all the tools to beat Roy Jones jr.

[JohnThomas1]

The situation with Artie Levine fight was worse than Tarver-II, Robinson reportedly lying on the canvas LONGER than 10 seconds and getting up at least as hurt as Jones was, but the rules back then were more democratic in giving a fighter a chance, than they are in our time. Jones got up before the count of ten, unlike Robinson.

You're twisted mate. The fact is that Robinson was up in time via the criteria that matters and came back. How in fukks name you see Jones shocking KO to Tarver as better god only knows. Read what you are writing, you're going berko.

[Holmes' Jab]

At 160 the fight's a toss up. 168 Jones by late TKO.

[Nemesis]

But what that tells us about his chin? With Jones it will be fatal mistake, as he not only hits harder, but is a MUCH better finisher than all the guys are mentioned.

Lets make this simple, in his entire career how many times was Robinson Knocked Out (over 200 fights against better competition than Roy) and how many was Roy KO'ed.

Have you even seen the Tarver II fight? Have you not seen the rubber match as well?

Yes and No, i didnt want to taint the opinion I had of Jones by watching the 3rd fight. Out of curiosity how did you score that.

I was using a little bit of poetic license, regarding the "10-20minutes"


A shame is everyone here statings things that don't correlate with facts, and use multiple excuses and wishful thinking for Robinson instead, because he's the more popular guy.

How long have you been a boxing fan Senya?

[Senya13]

Let's make it clear, how many times was Jones hurt or knocked down during first 14 years of his career, 10 of which were filled with championship fights? Only once, when the replays show clearly it was more because of a slip (on wet canvas) than from effect of the punch. How many times was Robinson hurt or knocked down during first 14 years of his career?

Jones got up before the count of 10 in Tarver II and in Tarver III managed to stay upright after a counter that staggered him badly, and recover quickly enough to start chasing Tarver around the ring, and while doing this "eat" another counter to the jaw without even flinching.

[Nemesis]

Let's make it clear, how many times was Jones hurt or knocked down during first 14 years of his career, 10 of which were filled with championship fights? Only once, when the replays show clearly it was more because of a slip (on wet canvas) than from effect of the punch. How many times was Robinson hurt or knocked down during first 14 years of his career?

Jones got up before the count of 10 in Tarver II and in Tarver III managed to stay upright after a counter that staggered him badly, and recover quickly enough to start chasing Tarver around the ring, and while doing this "eat" another counter to the jaw without even flinching.

I was polite enough to answer your questions, could you do the same?

What was your card in Jones vs Tarver III?

How long have you been a boxing fan?

[Senya13]

I scored it for Jones, for slightly better clean punching in most rounds and much better defense (Tarver was missing all the time even with his jabs).

4+ years fan, but watched boxing before too, occasionally (for several years).

[Nemesis]

I scored it for Jones, for slightly better clean punching in most rounds and much better defense (Tarver was missing all the time even with his jabs).

4+ years fan, but watched boxing before too, occasionally (for several years).

As I've said I have not seen the 3rd fight yet (i do have it though), so i may watch it over the weekend and post my scorecard.

How have you amassed such a fight film collection in such a short time (4 years), you seem to have most filmed fights of any importance

[Senya13]

It took about 2.5 years, since I set up a satellite dish to one European satellite, recording ESPN Classic Sport, Eurosport, and some other channels, then trading with several russian collectors. I have about 3600-3700 fights. Although I've watched less than half of them, not enough time.

[Street Lethal]

I don't see Jones losing to Archur or half the guys Robinson lost to either. Bringing up Tarver was about as useful as me bringing up them. We're talking prime for prime here.

I don't see Robinson being knocked out by Tarver past his prime. Really, I don't see a focused Robinson losing to Tarver anytime before 1960. I don't think Tarver is all that good. Look what Hopkins did to him. Roy is a great boxer, but we're talking about Ray Robinson just over the middleweight limit. Prime for prime Robinson takes it.

[fists of fury]

Actually, I need to change my vote here.

I thought the fight was at 160. At 168, I think Jones would beat Ray. 168's too much for Robinson.

[Azania]

I've said many times before...Roy Jones had the tools to beat anyone below 190,including the Sugarman.His combination of power/speed etc is second to none in history....

However..Could he actually beat Ray?IMO,Roy just has'nt shown enough tp prove he can...Having great physical attributes is one thing,to actually conquer the world with those is another.Ray,even without any footage of him at 147,has shown how a fighter goes to the limit and come back.At his best,I find it hard to see anyone besting him.The closest thing to a boxer/puncher in the history of this game.Bar none.

And he had a ton of heart....Roy's just never been stretched to that limit IMO...and consequently,I have to say Ray takes it at 160.To many facets to SRR's A-game for Roy.At 168,RJJ's size and his gifts might just be too much for Ray.

Somebody will have to do a hack of a lot to be considered a favourite against SRR.And in IMO,Roy just does'nt match.Love the guy.Great athlete.

Maybe I'm just a stickler for Sugar Ray Robinson,but he was the truth.