David Tua -vs- Jack Dempsey

[Holmes' Jab]

12 rounds, who wins?

[Senya13]

Tua by KO. A-la Jim Flynn bout.

[Maxmomer]

Tua by KO. A-la Jim Flynn bout.

I don't know what a dive Dempsey took has to do with a hypothetical match-up with David Tua.

[Holmes' Jab]

Without attempting to turn this into another frantic anti-Dempsey tirade, I agree with senya. Of course Dempsey's chances would increase if he makes it past the mid-distance, he might even win a few early ones, but Tua's superior durability and strength would count for a lot IMO. I think Tua will catch him pretty early on and Dempsey fails to clear the cobwebs, hanging in there until approaching the mid-rounds when a big left hook ends it.

Tua TKO5.

[fists of fury]

I'll have to think on this one for a bit...Tua was powerful, but limited.

[punchy]

I think if Dempsey can make it through the first round he could win a points decision but I am also a fan of Tua and Dempsey's aggressive style suits Tua so it may not last long, hard one to call.

[Senya13]

A dive, where Dempsey made up a false story in his auto-bio of being knocked down three times during about 2 minutes of fighting, and his brother throwing up the towel?

[Mendoza]

A dive, where Dempsey made up a false story in his auto-bio of being knocked down three times during about 2 minutes of fighting, and his brother throwing up the towel?

I agree with Senya Flynn caught Demspey cold.

[dmt]

A dive, where Dempsey made up a false story in his auto-bio of being knocked down three times during about 2 minutes of fighting, and his brother throwing up the towel?so that means everyone knocks him out in the first round, right?

[Maxmomer]

A dive, where Dempsey made up a false story in his auto-bio of being knocked down three times during about 2 minutes of fighting, and his brother throwing up the towel?

I've read at least 5 different versions of what happened in that fight. Dempsey himself has told a few different tales regarding that fight, that doesn't prove anything one way or the other. The evidence that it was a dive is very convincing, and Dempsey had more than enough motive to take a dive at that point of his career.

[Senya13]

What motive could that be? I have a next-day report from Salt Lake Telegram, as well as the reports leading up to that fight. Dempsey rushed, but was caught by a well-placed hook on the point of the jaw. The same way Flynn himself was knocked out by Sam Langford, he learned from that fight, and executed the same trick.

[Jack]

I'd go with Tua as well. I don't think Dempsey was either good or smart enough to box Tua. He'd get into a fight with someone who has a harder chin, more powerful punch and better workrate.

Tua KO 4 in a great fight.

[Holmes' Jab]

He'd get into a fight with someone who has a harder chin, more powerful punch and better workrate.



Therein lies the key. :yep

[Senya13]

It's worth noting that Monte Cox in his article doesn't even raise a question of who and why would pay Dempsey $500 for a dive with Jim Flynn. The show didn't sell well that night. As for the delay before the start of the main event, it wasn't the first time it happened in that place, as can be seen in local reports from that time, there were often long delays between bouts for one reason or another.

[Maxmomer]

What motive could that be? I have a next-day report from Salt Lake Telegram, as well as the reports leading up to that fight. Dempsey rushed, but was caught by a well-placed hook on the point of the jaw. The same way Flynn himself was knocked out by Sam Langford, he learned from that fight, and executed the same trick.
[Only registered and activated users can see links]


Even if the knockout was legitimate, Dempsey was basically a hobo at the time of the bout. Taking into account the fact that it was an isolated incident, and the question marks surrounding the fight, I'm not willing to consider it very seriously when judging Dempsey or the quality of his chin.

[ChrisPontius]

A mediocre middleweight knocked him down 9 times early in his career. Firpo knocked him down early twice. Carpentier wobbled him early. Tunney, a light hitter at heavyweight, knocked him down. Sorry, but it was not an isolated incident.

Dempsey's chin looks solid for sure, but i think the Flynn KO was real. Notice that the "fix" talk only started years after the fight.
Cox quotes eyewitness report that were taken over 4 years after the fight, which described exactly what happened, what punch landed, etc. That's bullshit. No one can remember those exact details of an (at the time) insignificant fight with 4 years between them and no slow-motion replay, photo's or any film at all.


The argument of "Dempsey couldn't have been KO'd by an old lightheavy because he took far better heavyweights without being stopped is hogwash, too. What if the referee stopped Ali after being knocked down by Cooper and the fight wasn't on film, would Cooper's knockdown have been impossible then too? What if Jack Johnson got knocked out in 3 rounds by a middleweight?

I suppose the difference between Dempsey's "fix" and Johnson's KO loss to Choynski is that Johnson wasn't white and a national hero.



I will add that Dempsey's durability, while seeming excellent upon first view, is pretty untested for an all time great heavyweight. Of the biggest punchers he faced, Willard, Firpo and Fulton, only Firpo landed on him and knocked him down twice in a 2-round fight. Most of his other opponents weren't that big hitters and often barely scaled over 180 pounds.

[Senya13]

Notice that the "fix" talk only started years after the fight.
Immediately after the fight, it wasn't quite called a fix. I don't know why the IBRO author doesn't follow up the coverage by Colorado's The Pueblo Chieftain, which he quotes for a short next-day report, but the following day (Feb. 15) it printed the following (on page 8):

START MOVEMENT ABOLISH BOXING
------
SALT LAKE FANS CLAIM THAT FLYNN-DEMPSEY GO WAS FIASCO
------
Salt Lake City, Utah, Feb. 14.--Following the defeat in one round of Jack Dempsey by Jim Flynn at Murray last night, and the condemning of the whole affair as the worst prize fight fiasco in the history of the state, a movement was on foot today to persuade the legislature, which is now in session to bar all professional boxing matches.


Surprisingly, The Salt Lake Telegram didn't say a word about such thing (at least, by looking at several days after the fight). As for fight details, it also mentions a one-punch KO, about 25 seconds into the fight, same as the Salt Lake Tribune report which is quoted by the IBRO author. But it differs in that it was left hand to put the block down and a right hand hook to the chin, The Tribune gives it the opposite, right hand followed by left hook to the chin.

[Ezzard]

Tua is not in Dempsey's league. That much is obvious.

[janitor]

A dive, where Dempsey made up a false story in his auto-bio of being knocked down three times during about 2 minutes of fighting, and his brother throwing up the towel?

Even if the fight was on the level which is uncertain at best.

Your observation would be like saying:

"Dempsey knocks Tua out in one round just like Felix Savon did".

Only worse.

This fight is totaly irrelevant fight to a prime for prime matchup. So lets get down to the meat of the matchup which will be verry bad for Tua.

[punchy]

It's worth noting that Monte Cox in his article doesn't even raise a question of who and why would pay Dempsey $500 for a dive with Jim Flynn. The show didn't sell well that night. As for the delay before the start of the main event, it wasn't the first time it happened in that place, as can be seen in local reports from that time, there were often long delays between bouts for one reason or another.

Where there is betting there is always going to be some bullshit going on somewhere.

[pugilist_boyd]

Dempsey By Ko In 1 Or 2 Tua Would Be Overwelmed By This Smaller Raging Pittbull

[JohnThomas1]

Tua KO4 for me. Tua showed some great stamina and workrate vs The President and i don't see him gassing here.

[Bummy Davis]

I think ther would be some rough early moments for Jack but Tua did get KO'd in 1 rd by Savon and Jack was stopped also...I like Dempsey speed and workrate and quality for a win

[Senya13]

The betting in Salt Lake City, with only 400 spectators, won't bring enough money to pay for a fix. This is not NY, Chicago of Philadelphia where you could have hundreds of bettors paying thousands of dollars for their favorite.

[SuzieQ49]

I like Dempsey unanimous decision here. Dempsey would outslug, outfight tua at every angle. Maybe not outwork tua like marciano would, but dempsey would make tua miss alot with his amazing footwork and incredible head movement allowing dempsey to land the more effective punches If dempsey fights smart and doesnt wrecklessy come in like he did vs firpo, dempsey wins.

[Rebel-INS]

Dempsey By Ko In 1 Or 2 Tua Would Be Overwelmed By This Smaller Raging Pittbull

You've never seen Tua before have you?

There is no way in hell Dempsey stops Tua IMO, his chin is fantastic.
It could go one of two ways:

Dempsey realises he can't stop Tua and outboxes him for a 12 round decision, or he slugs with Tua and gets stopped.

[janitor]

The betting in Salt Lake City, with only 400 spectators, won't bring enough money to pay for a fix. This is not NY, Chicago of Philadelphia where you could have hundreds of bettors paying thousands of dollars for their favorite.

Dont you get it?

If you know what round your man is going down in you dont need to draw a large crowd to turn a quick buck. All you need is a bookmaker that will offer reasonable odds.

That is the main reson for doing it.

[janitor]

Tua matches Dempsey in power, and durability.

In virtualy every other aspect of the game we are comparing greatness to mediocrity.

It must be noted however that traincrashes between two come forward fighters are one of the few scenarios where a punchers chance really counts for something.

[Bad_Intentions]

c'mon let's be real.

Tua: granite chin, dangerous left hook, hard puncher

Dempsey: was usually 170-180 which now is considered light heavy or cruiserweight, he had good power and good speed, but his chin against flynn left me wondering.

ima have to go for tua, not the tua after the ruiz fight, but young skinny tua in the early 90's , he was wayyyy faster.

[Senya13]

Bookmaker doesn't offer his own money, he's taking bets from other people. Dempsey was little known at the time, Flynn was still considered dangerous enough, I'd guess the betting was about even, no big odds in favor of either. Besides $500 for Dempsey himself, you have to get about the same or larger sum for the other participants of the "deal", or there's no point for them to be involved into this.

[Jack]

Tua matches Dempsey in power, and durability.I think it's obvious Tua has a better chin. Lewis and Ibeabuchi landed some awesome punches on him, yet he was never really bothered by them. His chin would rank up there with McCall and Chuvalo if he fought better opposition. Dempsey, however, was knocked down and hurt by mediocre punchers. It's not even close.

It must be noted however that traincrashes between two come forward fighters are one of the few scenarios where a punchers chance really counts for something.In fights like these the only things which really matter are chin and power, I think. Both of them go to Tua.

[PowerPuncher]

Lets compare:

Speed: Dempsey
Physical Stature: (4inches height, 4inches++ reach)
Power: Tua but close
Accuracy: Dempsey
Movement: Dempsey
Head Movement: Dempsey
Chin: Tua
Stamina/Workrate: Dempsey
Muscular Size/strength: Equalish (If Tua was as ripped as Dempsey he would be 190-200)
Range of Punches: Dempsey
Defense/Guard: Tua has a better guard, Dempsey the better head movement

If Dempsey knew Tua he may look to uncharacteristicall box of the backfoot. But if he comes forward and put Tuaman on the backfoot ala Ibeauchi he can also win. Tua can KO Dempsey at any moment but he could with many others and lost too.

PS if Dempsey was transported to the 90s and given modern nutrition, bigger meals, steroid fed beed, supplements, weight training regimes, modern boxing techniques (jab/gueard), he'd weigh a solid 210 and I don't think anyone would favour Tua

[PowerPuncher]

I think it's obvious Tua has a better chin. Lewis and Ibeabuchi landed some awesome punches on him, yet he was never really bothered by them. .

Actually he was stunned by Lewis and went into a shell

[janitor]

Bookmaker doesn't offer his own money, he's taking bets from other people. Dempsey was little known at the time, Flynn was still considered dangerous enough, I'd guess the betting was about even, no big odds in favor of either. Besides $500 for Dempsey himself, you have to get about the same or larger sum for the other participants of the "deal", or there's no point for them to be involved into this.

In this period the audience betting on a fight could be much larger than the audience atending a fight. Bookmakers might offer ofdds on a fight involving a former title challenger like Flyn nationwide while the atendance would be merely local.

I verry much doubt that betting was even given that Flyn was a former contender and Dempsey was a hobo. You might however have made a sizable sum by corectly predicting that Dempsey would go down in the first.

[janitor]

[quote=Jack]I think it's obvious Tua has a better chin. Lewis and Ibeabuchi landed some awesome punches on him, yet he was never really bothered by them. His chin would rank up there with McCall and Chuvalo if he fought better opposition. Dempsey, however, was knocked down and hurt by mediocre punchers. It's not even close.


I tend to think that Tua had the better chin but it is not necesarily a given.


In fights like these the only things which really matter are chin and power.


I couldnt disagree more.

In a tearup of this type the guy with the better defence has an enormous advantage. He will slip more shots than he takes while the other guy just becomes a punch bag.

Rocky Marciano might not be noted for his defence but it was better than Rex Laynes and that is what made the fight a beatdown.

[mcvey]

Actually he was stunned by Lewis and went into a shell
And his nuts crawled up his arse hole,he fought to survive after sampling a decent right hander.That would not be Dempsey's M.O.

[Senya13]

We are talking about fight in Salt Lake City, what nationwide betting are you talking about? As you have read yourself, the fight was barely even reported anywhere, except in 3 states. Flynn had been a contender so long time ago, and hasn't beaten anyone of notice for even longer time, but I expect his experience making the betting about even against local fans who believed in their fighter. Dempsey wasn't a nobody at the time, he has got some praise previously in local press.
Betting a large sum on Dempsey being stopped in the 1st round would look suspicious to anyone, but there wasn't any evidence of suspicious betting reported on this bout.

[wooz]

Tuaman KO rd 1.

[janitor]

[quote=Senya13]We are talking about fight in Salt Lake City, what nationwide betting are you talking about? As you have read yourself, the fight was barely even reported anywhere, except in 3 states.

Even if a fight is reported in three states the betting rights are going to be worth a lot more than a 400 seat gate.

I would also question how you establish that it was not reported in certain states.

Flynn had been a contender so long time ago, and hasn't beaten anyone of notice for even longer time, but I expect his experience making the betting about even against local fans who believed in their fighter.

A fighter who has fought for the title is a name fighter even when he is past his best.


Dempsey wasn't a nobody at the time, he has got some praise previously in local press.


Emphasis mine

Betting a large sum on Dempsey being stopped in the 1st round would look suspicious to anyone, but there wasn't any evidence of suspicious betting reported on this bout.

Why?

He was just a hobo.

[brooklyn1550]

David Tua.

[mcvey]

Did Dempsey catch Flynn cold in the rematch? Or did he dive? :D

[radianttwilight]

Tua KO's him, between 7 and 13ish.

I don't buy into the Dempsey hype.

[la-califa]

Dempsey would stop Tua about the eight or ninth round. Tua is too slow and Dempsey would be relentless in chopping down the big tree, Much like Jess Williard. Dempsey's too fast, too smart, to be caught by the lumbering Tua. Also in the late rounds Tua's lack of conditioning will come into play.

[Senya13]

That it wasn't reported in other states - see the link on previous page, an article from IBRO journal, major national newspapers didn't report the fight, which they usually did for important matches (Flynn wasn't very important at that point for them). A fighter who is losing consistently, and winning only occasionally against bums, is not going to get much financial support and bettors behind him.

You obviously have no idea about Dempsey at the time, how he was viewed locally. For example

Salt Lake Telegram the day before the fight: "Jack Dempsey, Salt Lake's pugilistic idol ..."

The Ogden Standard, Oct. 11, 1916: "when Jack Dempsey, the local light-heavyweight champion, and one of the most talked of youngsters in the boxing game today, meets Fighting Dick Gilbert of Louisville, Ky., in a 10-round bout.

Local boxing fans who have watched Dempsey in his rapid rise to the top since he fought his first bout here as an amateur a little over two years ago, are of the opinion that in a couple of years he will be heavyweight champion of the world."

Salt Lake Telegram, Sept. 29, 1916: "Jack has the goods and, if he takes care of himself differently than all former Salt Lake championship possibilities have, he will be heard from this winter."

I could dig up more press coverage like that prior to the fight with Flynn, now, how many hobos do you see praised that way in the press? It had been some time since his name moved from "another white hope fighting a preliminary" to a "main event name fighter".

[janitor]

Tua KO's him, between 7 and 13ish.

I don't buy into the Dempsey hype.

You risk being acused of buying into the Tua hype.

I mean apart from a left hook and a sturdy chin what dose he actualy have?

[janitor]

[quote=Senya13]That it wasn't reported in other states - see the link on previous page, an article from IBRO journal, major national newspapers didn't report the fight, which they usually did for important matches (Flynn wasn't very important at that point for them).

Any boxing fan of the period would be familiar with the Johnson Flyn title fight therfore Flyn was a name fighter shot or otherwise.


You obviously have no idea about Dempsey at the time, how he was viewed locally. For example

Salt Lake Telegram the day before the fight: "Jack Dempsey, Salt Lake's pugilistic idol ..."

The Ogden Standard, Oct. 11, 1916: "when Jack Dempsey, the local light-heavyweight champion, and one of the most talked of youngsters in the boxing game today, meets Fighting Dick Gilbert of Louisville, Ky., in a 10-round bout.

Local boxing fans who have watched Dempsey in his rapid rise to the top since he fought his first bout here as an amateur a little over two years ago, are of the opinion that in a couple of years he will be heavyweight champion of the world."

Salt Lake Telegram, Sept. 29, 1916: "Jack has the goods and, if he takes care of himself differently than all former Salt Lake championship possibilities have, he will be heard from this winter."


Again I must emphasise that these are local reports.

You could find a bunch of people in Scott Gammas home town, during his amateur career who thought he was a future heavyweight champion. Same for the local butchers aprentice.

It dosnt mean that Dempsey was a prospect.

Hell he wasnt even eating regular meals at this point by his own testimony.

[Senya13]

They might recognize Flynn's name, but he wasn't getting much reporting in the press anymore, he was losing most of his bouts, so he wasn't getting much financial support either. You are not earning much money on a semi-permanent loser.

The fight was held in Salt Lake City suburb. Dempsey was a local fighter, who was thought favorably by local press and local fans, he had a good winning streak, so it's quite natural that he would be getting enough support in his native area against an outsider.

If you read the IBRO article, you should be aware, that Dempsey didn't always stick to facts and truth, so his stories about being very poor should be taken with a pinch of salt. The same article mentions some of his purses from that time, they aren't bad at all.

[SuzieQ49]

To outslug and outphysical a Dempsey/marciano.......You have to be a george foreman. David Tua was no george foreman.

[JohnThomas1]

Tua matches Dempsey in power, and durability.


No.

[radianttwilight]

You risk being acused of buying into the Tua hype.

I mean apart from a left hook and a sturdy chin what dose he actualy have?

The way I look at it is that you need an absolutely granite chin and huge power to outslug Tua. Ibeabuchi had a great chin, but I don't think Dempsey's was of the right calibre. Dempsey had big power, sure...but I don't think he was as powerful as many do, and even if he did, does anyone think that he can reasonably expect to stop Tua?

Tua's shutout UD loss to Lewis is totally irrelevant in this matchup. Dempsey is not 6'6 and 240someodd pounds and he fights nothing like Lennox. I seriously doubt that he had Lewis' power, too, but, as I said above, I don't think Jack is going to be knocking Tua out.

It's basic styles make fights. In a come-forward slugfest, I'll put my money on the guy that's 40lb heavier, has the better chin, and punches harder...every time. It's not like Tua is a slug, either - he had a major problem with long jabs, but he can throw an amazing amount of punches when his target stands in front of him, like we can expect Dempsey to do.

There's always the chance that Dempsey tries to outbox Tua, but does he have the jab, size, and style to do what Lennox Lewis did?

[radianttwilight]

To outslug and outphysical a Dempsey/marciano.......You have to be a george foreman. David Tua was no george foreman.

Or Luis Firpo?

[OuterDrake]

David Tua would give Dempsey (the guy who cant block his chin) a broken jaw.

[janitor]

[quote=Senya13]They might recognize Flynn's name, but he wasn't getting much reporting in the press anymore, he was losing most of his bouts, so he wasn't getting much financial support either. You are not earning much money on a semi-permanent loser.

The fight was held in Salt Lake City suburb. Dempsey was a local fighter, who was thought favorably by local press and local fans, he had a good winning streak, so it's quite natural that he would be getting enough support in his native area against an outsider.


At the end of the day Dempsey was a malnourished fighter who would have been overmatched against anything aproaching a world class fighter.

Even if I were entirley convinced of the legitimacy of the win I would give Flyn verry little credit for it and would not consider it among his best.


If you read the IBRO article, you should be aware, that Dempsey didn't always stick to facts and truth, so his stories about being very poor should be taken with a pinch of salt. The same article mentions some of his purses from that time, they aren't bad at all.


Specifics please.

[janitor]

David Tua would give Dempsey (the guy who cant block his chin) a broken jaw.

Compared to Tua he was Pernel Whitaker.

[janitor]

[quote=radianttwilight]The way I look at it is that you need an absolutely granite chin and huge power to outslug Tua.

Dempsey wouldnt necisarily just come straight ahead.

It is one posibility but he had other layers to his game.


Dempsey had big power, sure...but I don't think he was as powerful as many do, and even if he did, does anyone think that he can reasonably expect to stop Tua?


Dempsey was for my money up with Louis and Tyson as a finisher.

A KO or TKO win for Dempsey is certainly on the cards.

Tua's shutout UD loss to Lewis is totally irrelevant in this matchup.

Agreed.

It's basic styles make fights. In a come-forward slugfest, I'll put my money on the guy that's 40lb heavier, has the better chin, and punches harder...every time.

I would be asking serious questions about who had the best come forward defence in such a scenario.


It's not like Tua is a slug, either - he had a major problem with long jabs, but he can throw an amazing amount of punches when his target stands in front of him, like we can expect Dempsey to do.


Dempsey had superb footwork and often circled for an opening.

He wouldnt necesarily rush in head first and if he did Tua would still have a whole lot of problrems.


There's always the chance that Dempsey tries to outbox Tua, but does he have the jab, size, and style to do what Lennox Lewis did?


He certainly has the size to do what Chris Byrd did.

Asuming he elects for such a strategy of course.

[radianttwilight]

Dempsey wouldnt necisarily just come straight ahead.

It is one posibility but he had other layers to his game.


Dempsey was for my money up with Louis and Tyson as a finisher.

A KO or TKO win for Dempsey is certainly on the cards.



I don't think Louis or Tyson would stop Tua either. Tua isn't getting stopped unless it's on cuts.



I would be asking serious questions about who had the best come forward defence in such a scenario.



The guy who got KO'd by Flynn in 1, punched out of the ring by Firpo, and floored by Tunney? Even if he has better defence, he has a very suspect chin.



Dempsey had superb footwork and often circled for an opening.

He wouldnt necesarily rush in head first and if he did Tua would still have a whole lot of problrems.



Does it really matter if he circles Tua, though? As long as he's coming in, he's coming in. Tua had problems with negative fighters in Lewis and Ibeabuchi, both of which are bigger than he is and a great deal bigger than Dempsey.



He certainly has the size to do what Chris Byrd did.

Asuming he elects for such a strategy of course.

Dempsey is nothing like Byrd.

If we're going to play this game, we can say that Tua has the size to do what Willie Meehan did.

[Maxmomer]

A mediocre middleweight knocked him down 9 times early in his career. Firpo knocked him down early twice. Carpentier wobbled him early. Tunney, a light hitter at heavyweight, knocked him down. Sorry, but it was not an isolated incident.

Dempsey's chin looks solid for sure, but i think the Flynn KO was real. Notice that the "fix" talk only started years after the fight.
Cox quotes eyewitness report that were taken over 4 years after the fight, which described exactly what happened, what punch landed, etc. That's bullshit. No one can remember those exact details of an (at the time) insignificant fight with 4 years between them and no slow-motion replay, photo's or any film at all.


The argument of "Dempsey couldn't have been KO'd by an old lightheavy because he took far better heavyweights without being stopped is hogwash, too. What if the referee stopped Ali after being knocked down by Cooper and the fight wasn't on film, would Cooper's knockdown have been impossible then too? What if Jack Johnson got knocked out in 3 rounds by a middleweight?

I suppose the difference between Dempsey's "fix" and Johnson's KO loss to Choynski is that Johnson wasn't white and a national hero.



I will add that Dempsey's durability, while seeming excellent upon first view, is pretty untested for an all time great heavyweight. Of the biggest punchers he faced, Willard, Firpo and Fulton, only Firpo landed on him and knocked him down twice in a 2-round fight. Most of his other opponents weren't that big hitters and often barely scaled over 180 pounds.
Those nine knockdowns were when Dempsey was an undersized, malnurished, teenage hobo, no bearing on the quality of his chin. Dempsey fought plenty of decent punchers. Firpo scored a couple of knockdowns, but he never kept Dempsey down for long, Willard got in a couple of shots that didn't seem to phase Dempsey. Dempsey went through fights with Carl Morris, Gunboat Smith and Bill Brennan without ever being in trouble, all of whom were thought of as hard punchers at the time. He took everything Jack Sharkey had to offer over 7 rounds when he was past his prime. The fact is that Dempsey, in his prime, was only knocked down in one fight.

[Maxmomer]

c'mon let's be real.

Tua: granite chin, dangerous left hook, hard puncher

Dempsey: was usually 170-180 which now is considered light heavy or cruiserweight, he had good power and good speed, but his chin against flynn left me wondering.

ima have to go for tua, not the tua after the ruiz fight, but young skinny tua in the early 90's , he was wayyyy faster.

More like 180-190.

[ChrisPontius]

Those nine knockdowns were when Dempsey was an undersized teenage hobo, no bearing on the quality of his chin. Dempsey fought plenty of decent punchers. Firpo scored a couple of knockdowns, but he never kept Dempsey down for long, Willard got in a couple of shots that didn't seem to phase Dempsey. Dempsey went through fights with Carl Morris, Gunboat Smith and Bill Brennan without ever being in trouble, all of whom were thought of as hard punchers at the time. He took everything Jack Sharkey had to offer over 7 rounds when he was past his prime. The fact is that Dempsey, in his prime, was only knocked down in one fight.

My point (among others) was that Morris, Smith and Brennan don't compare to any of the punchers that other ATG's like Ali, Louis, Marciano, Holmes, Tyson, Lewis, Holyfield, Frazier, etc had to dael with. You say "the best Sharkey had for 7 rounds". Sharkey was not a big puncher at all, unless you qualify someone with a KO percentage of little over 20% as such.

[ChrisPontius]

You risk being acused of buying into the Tua hype.

I mean apart from a left hook and a sturdy chin what dose he actualy have?

Apart from a left hook and a sturdy will, what did Frazier have? Apparantly it was enough to beat the #1 heavyweight of all time.

[Maxmomer]

To outslug and outphysical a Dempsey/marciano.......You have to be a george foreman. David Tua was no george foreman.

You make sense.

[Maxmomer]

Or Luis Firpo?

Last time I watched the fight Dempsey knocked Firpo down 10 times and stopped him in the second, or am I thinking of a different fight?

[radianttwilight]

Last time I watched the fight Dempsey knocked Firpo down 10 times and stopped him in the second, or am I thinking of a different fight?

My mistake, I was thinking of the Firpo that punched him out of the ring for 14 seconds in a championship fight.

[Maxmomer]

Apart from a left hook and a sturdy will, what did Frazier have? Apparantly it was enough to beat the #1 heavyweight of all time.

Good defense.

[radianttwilight]

Good defense.

...Really?

[Maxmomer]

My point (among others) was that Morris, Smith and Brennan don't compare to any of the punchers that other ATG's like Ali, Louis, Marciano, Holmes, Tyson, Lewis, Holyfield, Frazier, etc had to dael with. You say "the best Sharkey had for 7 rounds". Sharkey was not a big puncher at all, unless you qualify someone with a KO percentage of little over 20% as such.

I think that outside of Foreman, Dempsey fought a caliber of punchers similar to those Frazier fought.

[Maxmomer]

...Really?

Frazier? Yeah, his head movment was excellent in his prime.

[radianttwilight]

Frazier? Yeah, his head movment was excellent in his prime.

He still took alot of punishment in the FOTC, though. He had good defense, but I don't think that's what beat Ali.

[Maxmomer]

He still took alot of punishment in the FOTC, though. He had good defense, but I don't think that's what beat Ali.

He also made Ali miss a lot in the FOTC. Anyway, I was just saying that in addition to a solid chin and a left hook he had good defense.

[radianttwilight]

He also made Ali miss a lot in the FOTC. Anyway, I was just saying that in addition to a solid chin and a left hook he had good defense.

We can agree on these points.

[ChrisPontius]

I think that outside of Foreman, Dempsey fought a caliber of punchers similar to those Frazier fought.

Keypoint here being outside of Foreman.

And we all saw what happened when he fought Foreman.

[Maxmomer]

Keypoint here being outside of Foreman.

And we all saw what happened when he fought Foreman.

Yes, but I a prime Jack Dempsey was significantly better than a past prime Joe Frazier. Also, David Tua isn't George Foreman.

[Mendoza]

Actually he was stunned by Lewis and went into a shell

Tua also went into a shell after Chris Bryd hit him a few times. I think Demspey wins a decsion here.

[BIG DEE]

BIG DEE HERE= Early rd KO for Dempsey as he`s way to fast and hits way to hard for the slow and slower thinking Tua. Dempsey threw the 1st fight with
Flynn over money that the fight promoter promised and then reneged on right before the fight. When I say right before I mean as he getting ready to go in the damn thing to fight Flynn. Dempesy was walking out to the ring when the asshole say`s he getting 1/3 on what was promised to him on the contract
because of the crowd. Dempsey said to him this is going to be the shortest fight you ever saw. It was as Dempsey took the first punch Flynn threw to the jaw and folded like a house of cards. The crowd tore the place up over the fight which isn`t on the newspaper stories. Damage to the arena went
into the thousands of dollars. QUITE A TIDY SUM AT THE TIME. DEMPSEY
GOT THE PROMOTER THAT SCREWED HIM AND THEN A YEAR LATER PROVED IT BY ALMOST KILLING FLYNN IN THE 1ST RD KNOCKING HIM OUT FOR ALMOST TEN MINUTES. I THINK THAT PRETTY MUCH SAY`S IT ALL.

[Maxmomer]

BIG DEE HERE= Early rd KO for Dempsey as he`s way to fast and hits way to hard for the slow and slower thinking Tua. Dempsey threw the 1st fight with
Flynn over money that the fight promoter promised and then reneged on right before the fight. When I say right before I mean as he getting ready to go in the damn thing to fight Flynn. Dempesy was walking out to the ring when the asshole say`s he getting 1/3 on what was promised to him on the contract
because of the crowd. Dempsey said to him this is going to be the shortest fight you ever saw. It was as Dempsey took the first punch Flynn threw to the jaw and folded like a house of cards. The crowd tore the place up over the fight which isn`t on the newspaper stories. Damage to the arena went
into the thousands of dollars. QUITE A TIDY SUM AT THE TIME. DEMPSEY
GOT THE PROMOTER THAT SCREWED HIM AND THEN A YEAR LATER PROVED IT BY ALMOST KILLING FLYNN IN THE 1ST RD KNOCKING HIM OUT FOR ALMOST TEN MINUTES. I THINK THAT PRETTY MUCH SAY`S IT ALL.

Where'd you get that information?

[Sardu]

Dempsey by stoppage in the 10th. Dempsey was probably overrated fifty years ago but he is just as underrated today.

[punchy]

The betting in Salt Lake City, with only 400 spectators, won't bring enough money to pay for a fix. This is not NY, Chicago of Philadelphia where you could have hundreds of bettors paying thousands of dollars for their favorite.

I don't agree here, a fix if the money and the place is right could happen any time it doesn't need to be big money.

[brooklyn1550]

BIG DEE HERE= Early rd KO for Dempsey as he`s way to fast and hits way to hard for the slow and slower thinking Tua.

This would not be an early round KO for Dempsey.

[Sister Sledge]

Tua would be too strong and knock Demspey out.

[Quickhands21]

Tua by brutal ko.no longer than 2 rounds

[janitor]

[quote=radianttwilight]I don't think Louis or Tyson would stop Tua either. Tua isn't getting stopped unless it's on cuts.


You can never say that a fighter is never getting stopped in the heavyweight division.

A stoppage under the three round knockdown rule or a technical stoppage (not necisarily cuts) is certainly on the cards.

The guy who got KO'd by Flynn in 1,

Forgett the Flyn fight it is irrelevent to this discussion as stated previously. It is suspect at best and even if it was on the level it means next to nothing.

It would be more logical to use the Savon fight as a mark against Tuas chin than it would to use the Flyn fight as a mark against Dempseys.

punched out of the ring by Firpo, and floored by Tunney?

It is debatable whether he was punched or pushed out of the ring against Firpo.

If you want to get into the nitty gritty of it Tua took a lot more punches he shouldnt have than Dempsey did.

Tunney is the kind of master boxer that can catch anybody flush and hurt them. He had more juice in his shots than Chris Byrd for example.


Does it really matter if he circles Tua, though? As long as he's coming in, he's coming in.


He would dart in when Tua left himself open, dart out, counter and then come in when Tua looked hurt.

Of course Tua could potentialy catch him with the big one and turn the tide of the fight, but he is going to be getting decidedly the worst of the exchanges.


Dempsey is nothing like Byrd.


No but if he did choose to engage Tua in a long range game temporarily he would have the rach to do it.

[Senya13]

It has to be big money for it to be enough to pay Dempsey $500 and the other people involved still having enough left for themselves to agree to it. It is quite obvious that the fight was on the level and all the talk about $500 is nothing but bullshit.

[janitor]

Keypoint here being outside of Foreman.


If you want to get technical about it a few of Dempseys victims could have handed Tua a red square on his boxrec record.

As others have said he is no George Foreman.

[Ezzard]

It's a real shame when one of the greatest HWs ever gets sold short against a guy who basically lost all of his big fights, and doesn't get anywhere near the pantheon of great fighters.

If there's a major stylistic reason then that's something...

[janitor]

It has to be big money for it to be enough to pay Dempsey $500 and the other people involved still having enough left for themselves to agree to it. It is quite obvious that the fight was on the level and all the talk about $500 is nothing but bullshit.

It would have taken a lot less than $500 to make it worth Dempseys while.

There is nothing to stop him placing a private bet against himself. That sort of thing takes place in unliscenced bouts with purely local atendance.

I am not saying that this fight should be retrospectivly marked up as a dive but there are clearly enough suspicious circumstances that it should carry a big question mark.

Some of Dempseys critics seem almost desperate to validate the result so that they can use it as a stick to beat Dempsey with and that is not on.

[Maxmomer]

Some of Dempseys critics seem almost desperate to validate the result so that they can use it as a stick to beat Dempsey with and that is not on.

You said it.

[Senya13]

There was nowhere to take $500 from. If they were discussing it among themselves before the bout started (causing that long delay), that means Dempsey's and Flynn's managers were involved, as well as Flynn himself, which means each one of them was to have a portion of the money too. I would expect they needed to win some $1000 to $2000 somewhere for it to be enough to pay each one of them, and you simply don't get so big bets in those circumstances, with few local spectators and little if any interest at all to the bout from the outsiders. As can be seen from the clipping I posted, even those dissatisfied with the result never called it a fix, but only that it was an ugly event that wasn't worth the money they paid for it. Local press didn't even pay attention to such "publiic protest", because it simply wasn't worth it, bad cards happen, there was nothing that could or should be done about it. Nobody said a word about a fix, whereas in other really suspicious bouts there were at least some rumors immediately before or after the fight, of something not being right.

Dempsey himself never admitted it, Flynn never admitted knowing anything about it, the fight itself didn't provide any reason to believe it was staged, both journalists from local papers describing it as a clever move by Flynn, who created an opening on his not very experienced opponent, and exploited it with a perfect hook to the point of the chin. And why would Downing, if he was involved into this, go to the police before the fight and ask them do something about it?

Only Dempsey nut-huggers can cling to the idea of it being a fix in these circumstances.

[janitor]

[quote=Senya13]There was nowhere to take $500 from.

Yes there was. You said yourself that the bout was reported and therfoore betted on across multiple states.

And even if there wasnt it dosnt mean that Dempsey didnt dive for a lesser sum.

Dempsey himself never admitted it,

No but his wife claimed it under oath at a trial where she was apearing for his defence!!

Did she imagine that inventing a story about a dive would help his defence or was she just trying to safeguard his future legacy?

Only Dempsey nut-huggers can cling to the idea of it being a fix in these circumstances.

No mate.

It people who have an agenda against Dempsey who try to validate a fight that took place 90 years ago, that was not filmed, where there is a substantial amount of circumstantial evidence for a fix.

The pro Dempsey crowd on this forum are not saying "it was definitely a fix".

They are just saying "treat it as suspicious", which is eminently reasonable under the circumstances.

It is the anti Dempsey crowd who are saying "it was definitely on the level and anybody who says otherwise is delusional".

Who is really biased?

[Senya13]

The result of the bout was reported in the neighbour states. The pre-fight build was only the Salk Lake City newspapers.

What lesser sum if the persons involved in the "fix" insist that it was $500 handed to Dempsey? Plus their own profit, that had to be really significant to risk staging it, in most such cases the person who organizes the fix receives more money, than the fighters, so they had to get over $1000 total somewhere. Dempsey was getting $325 (10 rounds with Joe Bonds) and $350 (10 rounds with Terry Kellar) for two fights the previous year, against much lesser opponents, so why was it only $500 he agreed to, if he would be getting about the same sum the normal way, for fighting on the level, it had to be easier to sell a fight with Flynn than with those two fighters and get a bigger purse.

What took so much time to cause a delay, if everything was pre-arranged? You don't need 45 minutes to "rehearse" a fix like that.

What oath, what trial, what defence? His wife was telling this story to anyone who would listen, there's not a word about any oath or trial.

There is no substantial amount of circumstantial evidence for a fix, on the contrary there's plenty of evidence and logical reasoning against it being fixed.

[mcvey]

Tua KO's him, between 7 and 13ish.

I don't buy into the Dempsey hype.
And I don't buy into the Tua Hype apart from contraversially tkoing Rahman and getting a draw against a 259 lbs Rahman in the return who has the murderous hitting Tua kod? I see lots of never wassers on his resume Byrd went the route to win,Lewis was never in danger,Ibeabuchi neither.Tua caught a very moderate Ruiz cold, a fragile Oquendo boxed his ears off for the majority of their fight.Tua is a false alarm ,a myth,he is known for a war with Ike,which he lost,in fact he lost his best fights.

[punchy]

It has to be big money for it to be enough to pay Dempsey $500 and the other people involved still having enough left for themselves to agree to it. It is quite obvious that the fight was on the level and all the talk about $500 is nothing but bullshit.

$500 appears to be a lot of money to me to pay Dempsey, but the point is fixes were reasonably common place in sports like horse racing and boxing at this time, to me there are doubts about the fight but to argue that it wouldn't be worth doing because of the money is the flaw in your argument, we are talking about people with virtually no morals here.

[janitor]

[quote=Senya13]The result of the bout was reported in the neighbour states. The pre-fight build was only the Salk Lake City newspapers.


I would question how you can definitely establish this. It is unlikley that the result of the bout would have been reported in neighbouring states without some reference to the fight beforehand.

I would also ask how you can establish that is wasnt listed on a schedule in a national paper also.

It is virtualy impossible to prove the absence of something.

What lesser sum if the persons involved in the "fix" insist that it was $500 handed to Dempsey? Plus their own profit, that had to be really significant to risk staging it, in most such cases the person who organizes the fix receives more money, than the fighters, so they had to get over $1000 total somewhere.

A major betting syndicate could have raised that sort of money by clever bet placment. All you do is distribute your bets among as many bookmakers as possible and no clear betting patern emerges.

I knew a guy who had contacts inside the music industry and used to clean up every Xmas betting on which track would be No1 in the Xmas charts, knowing the numbers that had been manufactured and distributed. He consistently got a 10/1 return on his investment without raising any suspicion.


Dempsey was getting $325 (10 rounds with Joe Bonds) and $350 (10 rounds with Terry Kellar) for two fights the previous year, against much lesser opponents, so why was it only $500 he agreed to, if he would be getting about the same sum the normal way, for fighting on the level, it had to be easier to sell a fight with Flynn than with those two fighters and get a bigger purse.


If he dives he gets his purse and the payback. Also it dosnt follow that he was necisarily offered $300 for the fight. Fighters p[urses always came through much smaller than the articles suggested through one thing and another.


What took so much time to cause a delay, if everything was pre-arranged? You don't need 45 minutes to "rehearse" a fix like that.


The point is we dont know what was going on.

It is just another suspicious circumstance to add to the already extensive pile.


What oath, what trial, what defence? His wife was telling this story to anyone who would listen, there's not a word about any oath or trial.


She testified on oath when pressed at his slacker trial that he took a dive against Flyn. This was in a trial where she was trying to defend her husband.

At this stage Dempsey was not yet champion so it is unlikley that Mrs Dempsey was trying to safeguard his future legend.

There is no substantial amount of circumstantial evidence for a fix, on the contrary there's plenty of evidence and logical reasoning against it being fixed.

There is a substantial amount of circumstantial evidence for anybody who either:

A. Is able to see beyond the end of their nose.

or

B: Is prepared to look at it objectively and see things they dont want to see.

What is not in doubt is that there is more than enough evidence to render the fight uncertain.

[Senya13]

$500 was only slightly bigger sum than Dempsey was receiving for his fights the normal way at that time.

Reasoning that a fight is a fix based on "fixes being common thing at the time" is a flawed logic, this way you can call any fight from that time a fix. There needs to be additional evidence. The fight was not surrounded by signs that usually surround fixes, there were no rumors in the press anywhere, there were no suspicious circumstances in the fight itself based on three next-day reports. The delay that some people try to use as evidence of a fix, not only can be easily explained (as it was not the first time it happened there, some previous shows at the same place had similar delays because of bad organization of the show), but actually works against the version of a fix, because: a) it means the opponent's side was involved in the fix, which means they had to get their share of the money from it, which makes it even harder to get enough money from betting, for everyone involved, in those circumstances; b) there was no reason why it had to take so long, if it was pre-arranged for some time before the fight, as Downing claimed, that he had time to go to the police and report on such thing.
Finally, there was no reason to start staging fix of Dempsey's fights at that particular moment, unless it means he was involved in fixed fights even before meeting with Flynn. But that doesn't seem logical from the circumstances either, as he was beating inferior opposition, being a favorite for most of his previous fights and there were no unexpected results.

[Senya13]

The Pueblo Chieftain printed the result but had nothing of pre-fight coverage. Reno Evening Gazette and Nevada State Journal didn't have anything. The IBRO author, obviously, has looked up some newspapers too, and only found it in The Salt Lake Tribune. A list of scheduled fights means nothing, you don't bet on or against a fighter you don't know anything about, and Dempsey had local reputation, not national.

What syndicate? We are talking about relatively small fight in Utah, the managers of both boxers had too little influence, to be involved in games of "big boys", the attendance was too small to have any big betting either, Salt Lake City wasn't staging any significant bouts to grab attention of big gamblers, there was bigger "fish" elsewhere, in NY, Philadelphia, etc. You are clutching to a straw here.

There wasn't a word about anything besides $500 from the person who supposedly paid the money to Dempsey. Fighter's purse was usually reported with his manager's and expenses money substracted from it. The IBRO article says explicitly that that's the money Dempsey was paid for those bouts. The sum seems plausible also, for a main event participant, say, between 500 and 1000 spectators paying $2 for addmission, at least half the sum goes for fighters' purses.

Facts have to be interwoven into reasoning logically. A long delay in such circumstances goes against the logic, and makes the theory of a fix less plausible.

What trial again, and how was it involved with this fight? What's your source of this oath and everything? You don't defend your husband by testifying that he was involved in illegal activities.

What evidence? There's none, except gossips long time after the fight had taken place, and which are contradicted by facts or have no logical explanation.

[janitor]

[quote=Senya13]$500 was only slightly bigger sum than Dempsey was receiving for his fights the normal way at that time.


That makes it sound like quite a lot.

Reasoning that a fight is a fix based on "fixes being common thing at the time" is a flawed logic, this way you can call any fight from that time a fix.

I am not reasoning that the fight was fixed based on fixes being common at the time.

I am not even saying that it was necisarily fixed.

What I am saying is that there is a body of circumstantial evidence that cant just be dismised.

There needs to be additional evidence.

I think that there is aditional evidence from testimony and so forth. Some of it is contradictory but again there is a lot of smoke.

The fight was not surrounded by signs that usually surround fixes, there were no rumors in the press anywhere

There wouldnt have to be necisarily.

You always seem to be looking for everything to be clear cut and the world insnt like that.

Finally, there was no reason to start staging fix of Dempsey's fights at that particular moment, unless it means he was involved in fixed fights even before meeting with Flynn.

He probably was.

His wife testified at his trial, not only that he dived against Flyn but implied that he dived against other unamed oponents as well.

[Senya13]

That reply was not to your post.

Put yourself in place of a judge or a commission that has to investigate this case and rule a decision, what evidence are you going to come up with as a prosecutor, and how plausible is it? Most or all of the evidence for a fix here is a hear-say, not backed up by any facts. There are too many flaws in this theory to believe in it.

He dived against whom? Jack Downey, when Dempsey was still a preliminary fighter, and where one had the advantage for some time, then the other, and back and forth, until Downey's superior experience told and he had the better of the final round?

[janitor]

[QUOTE][quote=Senya13]A list of scheduled fights means nothing, you don't bet on or against a fighter you don't know anything about, and Dempsey had local reputation, not national.


I can see that you dont know many gambling adicts.

What syndicate? We are talking about relatively small fight in Utah,

A fight in Utah with Flyns name on the card might be big enough to get the atention of a syndicate in any state.

the managers of both boxers had too little influence, to be involved in games of "big boys",

The might not have known about it and if they did they might have been the junior partner. Alternativley they might just have made an arrangment with Dempsey that both parties would put on a few private bets.

the attendance was too small to have any big betting either, Salt Lake City wasn't staging any significant bouts to grab attention of big gamblers, there was bigger "fish" elsewhere, in NY, Philadelphia, etc.

Which would have been much harder, and more expensive to influence.

What we have here is a name fighter who is known nationay matched against a guy who can i be controled for a fraction of the cost of a name fighter.

There wasn't a word about anything besides $500 from the person who supposedly paid the money to Dempsey.

That is only one of a number of testimonies surrounding this bout.

Fighter's purse was usually reported with his manager's and expenses money substracted from it.

So $330 could end up as bugger all. By the time the relevant deductions are made Dempsey might have got $50 for the fight.


Facts have to be interwoven into reasoning logically. A long delay in such circumstances goes against the logic, and makes the theory of a fix less plausible.


It dosnt suggest anything one way of the other.

The delay might have been over a completely unrelated matter.


What trial again, and how was it involved with this fight? What's your source of this oath and everything? You don't defend your husband by testifying that he was involved in illegal activities.


Dempsey was put on trial for not meeting the draft in world war I. The trial focused extensivley on Dempseys character.

His wife was cross questioned on the witness stand about the legality of some of Dempseys matches notably the Flyn fight. She admited that he took a dive in the Flyn fight and other unnamed fights.


What evidence? There's none, except gossips long time after the fight had taken place, and which are contradicted by facts or have no logical explanation.


You have several peices of testimony including one by his wife under oath. There is probably more circumstantial evidence for this fight being fixed than there is for Gans McGovern or Clay Liston II.

As an objective historian you have to mark it down as uncertain.

[punchy]

I think if any fight was to be fixed it would be a smaller fight with less scrutiny, wherever we see gambling we see fixes of some sort or cheating it happens now even with all the media scrutiny. We are talking about the murky dealings of small time fight promoters and gamblers just after the turn of the century. What better way to make a killing than have the average Joe bet on a hot prospect blasting all before him who unexpected comes back to earth, its just the fight game.
Give me all the evidence you like but this fight smells bad, we will never know for sure though.

[janitor]

[quote=Senya13]That reply was not to your post.

Put yourself in place of a judge or a commission that has to investigate this case and rule a decision, what evidence are you going to come up with as a prosecutor, and how plausible is it? Most or all of the evidence for a fix here is a hear-say, not backed up by any facts. There are too many flaws in this theory to believe in it.


As a judge held up to a standard of proof I would have to rule that there was no conclusive evidence one way or another.

I might withold Dempseys purse on the strength of the testimony as purses were witheld on the strength of less.

[Senya13]

Gambling has logic too. There's little logic in this case about the source of such big money.

Flynn was a nobody at the time, no more than, say, Dick Gilbert whom Dempsey beat several months prior. You are clutching to Flynn's past as if he had been a champion before, not a simple short-lived contender.

Private bets against whom? As I said, you have to be winning at very least $1000 on bets for it to be enough for all people involved, if Dempsey was to received $500. I'd say much more than $1K, actually. And there was nobody who would bet so much money on Dempsey. If we are to believe you, then Flynn had received an even bigger sum for this fix, but it's even less plausible, and Dempsey's manager doesn't say a word about any money for Flynn, he'd surely mention that the other side received much bigger money from the fix too.

A purse in that time is usually what a fighter got AFTER all expenses were subtracted from it. Dempsey received $325 and $350 precisely. See my calculations about how much money can be gathered from attendance and how the gate money is usually divided, which you should have known if you studied that time. This is not the 1940-1950's where the mafia would get all the money and the fighter received nothing.

A delay is used by the author of the article as another evidence of a fix. While, like I said, and you agreed, it most probably was because of organizational troubles.

Source of Dempsey's wife's testimony?

I could tell a lot about Gans-McGovern fight. But I will limit it to just one thing - look up NY's newspaper The Evening World 1 day before (!) the fight and see what it says about who the colored people were betting large sums against, Gans or McGovern?

[janitor]

[quote=Senya13]Gambling has logic too.

Then why do most gamblers make a loss?

By definition it is an activity that flies in the face of logic unless you know about a fix.


Flynn was a nobody at the time, no more than, say, Dick Gilbert whom Dempsey beat several months prior. You are clutching to Flynn's past as if he had been a champion before, not a simple short-lived contender.


Flyn was not a short lived contender he was a name fighter who mixed it with the best over a period of a decade.

Whatever status he was at he still had his name.

Private bets against whom?

The sum total of people nationwide who either picked Dempsey to win or for Flyn to win in any round other than the 1st.

If we are to believe you, then Flynn had received an even bigger sum for this fix,

Flyn might not even have known about it.

A purse in that time is usually what a fighter got AFTER all expenses were subtracted from it.

There are expenses and expenses. Dempsey would likley have had aditional debts to his managers which would also have been deducted from the purse.


Source of Dempsey's wife's testimony?


It will be in the transcript of the trial.


I could tell a lot about Gans-McGovern fight. But I will limit it to just one thing - look up NY's newspaper The Evening World 1 day before (!) the fight and see what it says about who the colored people were betting large sums against, Gans or McGovern?


I could point out testimony from the sporting editor of the Salt Lake Tribune after the Dempsey Flyn fight suggesting that it was fixed.

[Senya13]

Gambling cases have logic, where you can't produce a big sum with little betting on the fight.

Why don't you provide examples of Flynn's name being popular nationally by early 1917? I'd bet all my money that some white hopes' names were as well known nationally as Flynn's, but did you read about crowds of bettors following them around, anywhere?

That money was with expenses subtracted. Whatever he might have owned to somebody, doesn't mean it was subtracted from his purse, he paid it himself from the money he received for the fight. For example, "Dempsey, by the man himself" (1960)
page 65: "It was a full house. John the Barber had guessed $500, minimum, for our 25 per cent if the house was full."
page 66: "It was in Salida, Colorado, against a fellow named Young Hector. ... I got $250 for that fight, and there was no manager around to protect my interests, as they always said. I gave my mother a hundred."

Where can I see this transcript? Dempsey in his autobiography doesn't mention her testifying on any fixes, where he talks about his first wife.

You could point something he said many years after the event had taken place. I could point to contemporary (primary) sources that heard and saw no evidence of it being staged. And regarding Gans-McGovern, like I said, The Evening World the day before the fight (well, actually, it is dated Dec. 13, but this is because the newspapers are usually printed in the night, and are sold the next day, so this one was being sold before the fight, thus we always have "next-day reports" on fights, the fight result and report was printed in Dec. 14 issue), has at the top of the very first page with huge letters:

Gans and M'Govern ready for bout.
FIGHT "FAKE" DENIED

a below it an article full-page high (and concluded on page 10), containing the follows fragment:

Rumor of a Fake.
Lou Houseman had Al Herford on the carpet last night. There was a rumor that all the wise colored money was going that McGovern would put Gans away inside the six rounds, Gans to lay down.
The rumor spread around betting resorts.
"There is a lot of this money around, Herford," said Houseman, "that McGovern knocks Gans out. That means that Gans is to lay down to McGovern inside of six rounds. Now, that won't go in this town. If there is the slightest sign of the irregular Siler is instructed to call all bets off, withhold your money and give McGovern his share."
"You won't get a cent, you won't win any and I'll give your share of the purse to some hospital, you understand?"

[janitor]

Where can I see this transcript? Dempsey in his autobiography doesn't mention her testifying on any fixes, where he talks about his first wife.


I cannot provide the transcript but it is refered to by Monte Cox in his article "In Defence of Jack Dempsey".

His first wife Maxine Cates was reputed to be turning tricks as a prostitute to help make ends meet. She admitted that Dempsey was “offered more money to lose than to win” (Khan 121) to which she testified under oath at Dempsey’s slacker trial that Dempsey accepted $500 to lie down for Flynn.

This is testimony in court, under oath, before Dempsey was famous, and cant be explained by either desire to positivley effect the outcome of his trial or positivley enhance his historical standing.

Dempsey always denied taking a dive but he gave three conflicting acounts of the fight.

[janitor]

[quote=Senya13]Why don't you provide examples of Flynn's name being popular nationally by early 1917? I'd bet all my money that some white hopes' names were as well known nationally as Flynn's, but did you read about crowds of bettors following them around, anywhere?


Jack Johnsons name was obviously known to every boxing fan at the time and Flyn had a series with Johnson that included a filmed fight, and a win over Sam Langford.

Therfore he was a name fighter.


That money was with expenses subtracted. Whatever he might have owned to somebody, doesn't mean it was subtracted from his purse, he paid it himself from the money he received for the fight. For example, "Dempsey, by the man himself" (1960)


My point is that fighters of this period often lived on tick from their promotors and their purses could go as soon as they arived.

You could point something he said many years after the event had taken place.

Just because it didnt come out untill years later dosnt mean it didnt happen.

Could you produce a source from before the fight suggesting that LaMotta Fox was going to be fishy?

[SuzieQ49]

The way I look at it is that you need an absolutely granite chin and huge power to outslug Tua.

I dont think its that simple. Dempsey had the defense and footwork to evade most of tuas punches allowing him to tee off on Tua. I think Dempsey beats Tua by decision, not by KO.

[SuzieQ49]

who has the murderous hitting Tua kod?


John Ruiz. Like him or not he has been a multiple time champion this decade and has FOUGHT EVERYONE and tua was not only the only fighter to stop him, he knocked ruiz out cold in 19 seconds!!!

Oleg Maskaev world champion tua knocked him out

David Izon, Obed Sullivan, Fres Oquendo, at the time were respectable contenders, especially izon.



What made tua murderous was his late clutch power. maskaev rahman izon oquendo all were far ahead on points when tua knocked them out

[SuzieQ49]

FIGHT "FAKE" DENIED

a below it an article full-page high (and concluded on page 10), containing the follows fragment:

Rumor of a Fake.
Lou Houseman had Al Herford on the carpet last night. There was a rumor that all the wise colored money was going that McGovern would put Gans away inside the six rounds, Gans to lay down.
The rumor spread around betting resorts.
"There is a lot of this money around, Herford," said Houseman, "that McGovern knocks Gans out. That means that Gans is to lay down to McGovern inside of six rounds. Now, that won't go in this town. If there is the slightest sign of the irregular Siler is instructed to call all bets off, withhold your money and give McGovern his share."
"You won't get a cent, you won't win any and I'll give your share of the purse to some hospital, you understand?"


Joe gans defintley took a dive vs Mcgovern.

[ChrisPontius]

John Ruiz. Like him or not he has been a multiple time champion this decade and has FOUGHT EVERYONE and tua was not only the only fighter to stop him, he knocked ruiz out cold in 19 seconds!!!

Oleg Maskaev world champion tua knocked him out

David Izon, Obed Sullivan, Fres Oquendo, at the time were respectable contenders, especially izon.



What made tua murderous was his late clutch power. maskaev rahman izon oquendo all were far ahead on points when tua knocked them out

Don't forget Michael Moorer. He lasted something like 30 seconds.

[mcvey]

Ruiz the clutch,was caught cold ,fought everyone? When did he fight Tyson,Lewis,Bowe? Rahman is average,Oquendo fragile ,Izon was stopped by Grant,Maskaev stopped several times.Moorer is chinny.Tua is best known for fights he lost.

[radianttwilight]

I wouldn't have a problem believing Dempsey had the chin to survive Tua if there wasn't so much evidence pointing against it. When did Dempsey ever soak up punishment in a prolonged beating the way Tua did?

The difference between Dempsey-Flynn and Tua-Savon is that, even if we consider the Savon fight a good indicator of Tua's chin, there are plenty of fights that are perfect examples of Tua having an iron chin via taking alot of punishment that conflict with the Savon fight. Ibeabuchi and Lewis, for example. I don't think Tua has ever been down in his professional career, actually, but I might be wrong about that one.

Dempsey, on the other hand, got KO'd by Flynn, knocked down and then punched out of the ring by Firpo, floored by Tunney and so on, and there's no substantive evidence that contradicts this point.

[janitor]

I wouldn't have a problem believing Dempsey had the chin to survive Tua if there wasn't so much evidence pointing against it. When did Dempsey ever soak up punishment in a prolonged beating the way Tua did?


He didnt becaus he had good enough defence not to take a prolonged beating from prety much anybody.

Do you think this might not have a bearing on the outcome of this fantasy match up?

[radianttwilight]

Even if his defence was amazing, he'd be taking alot of leather, and I don't think he could stand up to it.

He pretty much has to come forward, he doesn't have the style, skillset and size to do what Lewis, or even Byrd, did.

[abraq]

PS if Dempsey was transported to the 90s and given modern nutrition, bigger meals, steroid fed beed, supplements, weight training regimes, modern boxing techniques (jab/gueard), he'd weigh a solid 210 and I don't think anyone would favour Tua

Nothing but the truth in that statement. But Dempsey would be more like 220 IMO.

Any takers for Tua under these conditions?

[SuzieQ49]

When did he fight Tyson,Lewis,Bowe? Rahman is average,Oquendo fragile ,Izon was stopped by Grant,Maskaev stopped several times.Moorer is chinny.Tua is best known for fights he lost.


Lewis refused to fight ruiz, and was stripped of his title. Riddick Bowe? he was busy getting beat up by andrew golota(who ruiz beat) and retired just about when ruiz burst into the contender scene. Ruiz didnt fight tyson, but tyson was washed up by 2000, its not like he was worth fighting. Ruiz went 1-1-1 with the same holyfield who fought close fight with lennox lewis in the rematch.

[Senya13]

I'm afraid I have little trust in Kahn's words, the reasons are stated in the same IBRO article, he messed up the facts many times, as well as has a strange choice of sources.

Please, remind me, when did Flynn and Johnson fight? What about Langford fight, did it just happen recently? 5 and 7 years is a long time.

The point is, regardless of how much money he had left, he still was receiving almost the same amount of money for usual fights against nobodies.

LaMotta-Fox had rumors in the press immediately after the fight that it might have been not on the level. That, of course, doesn't always mean it's true, that fight being a good example. As I previously said, no evidence was found of a fix, other than Jake's own words many-many years after the fight, but his brother still refused to admit to anything, and if we are to believe Jake's autobiography, it was his brother who worked out the deal, so without his confirmation, Jake's words meant zilch.

[SuzieQ49]

Jake Lamotta took a dive against billy fox, thats not an opinion. There has been evidence linked before and after the fight. its a fact. The fight was a joke, no way fox could ever dream of flooring lamotta, let alone kayo him

[janitor]

[quote=Senya13]I'm afraid I have little trust in Kahn's words, the reasons are stated in the same IBRO article, he messed up the facts many times, as well as has a strange choice of sources.


I apreciate that there are errors in Khans work but a detail like a testimony given in court is not something that a historian has get wrong.

If on the other hand you could refute this claim it would greatly strengthen your case.


Please, remind me, when did Flynn and Johnson fight? What about Langford fight, did it just happen recently? 5 and 7 years is a long time.


A long time ago but Johnson and Langford were still legends and huge figures.

LaMotta-Fox had rumors in the press immediately after the fight that it might have been not on the level. That, of course, doesn't always mean it's true, that fight being a good example. As I previously said, no evidence was found of a fix, other than Jake's own words many-many years after the fight, but his brother still refused to admit to anything, and if we are to believe Jake's autobiography, it was his brother who worked out the deal, so without his confirmation, Jake's words meant zilch.

But presumably you regard the bout with extreme suspicion.

[janitor]

Even if his defence was amazing, he'd be taking alot of leather, and I don't think he could stand up to it.

He pretty much has to come forward, he doesn't have the style, skillset and size to do what Lewis, or even Byrd, did.

The tools that will win this for Dempsey:

1. Slipping punches, nobody dose it better in the history of the heavyweight division.

2. Infighting, nobody dose it better in the history of the heavyweight division.

Personaly I would be more concearned about the obstacles that Tua has to overcome than vice versa.

[ChrisPontius]

Ruiz the clutch,was caught cold ,fought everyone? When did he fight Tyson,Lewis,Bowe? Rahman is average,Oquendo fragile ,Izon was stopped by Grant,Maskaev stopped several times.Moorer is chinny.Tua is best known for fights he lost.

Rahman was linear heavyweight champion and has been ranked in the top10 for more than six years. I wouldn't say that makes him average. That said, i scored his fight with Tua in his favor and the KO was a bit controversial.

Ruiz, love him or hate him, has fought top contender after top contender since 2000 and never been KO'd or close to it again; Tua laid him out cold in 19 seconds. Yes Maskaev, Moorer, and Izon had been stopped before, but so what?

Chuvalo had been stopped before. Frazier was down several times against Bonavena. Norton had a glass chin. Lyle had been stopped by light hitting Ali. So, does that mean Foreman couldn't punch?


Also, on the "Tua is most known for the fights he lost", fair enough, though i would like to add that i (and a lot of people with me) thought he edged the Ibeabuchi fight by a very close margin.

[mcvey]

Rahman was linear heavyweight champion and has been ranked in the top10 for more than six years. I wouldn't say that makes him average. That said, i scored his fight with Tua in his favor and the KO was a bit controversial.

Ruiz, love him or hate him, has fought top contender after top contender since 2000 and never been KO'd or close to it again; Tua laid him out cold in 19 seconds. Yes Maskaev, Moorer, and Izon had been stopped before, but so what?

Chuvalo had been stopped before. Frazier was down several times against Bonavena. Norton had a glass chin. Lyle had been stopped by light hitting Ali. So, does that mean Foreman couldn't punch?


Also, on the "Tua is most known for the fights he lost", fair enough, though i would like to add that i (and a lot of people with me) thought he edged the Ibeabuchi fight by a very close margin.
Ruiz would have been stopped if he had fought lewis ,Im pretty sure of that.I know you are not a fan of Dempsey ,but imo he was a great fightwer ,Tua is merely a good one.Tua ,imo ,swallowed it against Leiws and fought just to survive.He is strong and durable,so was Willard.

[ChrisPontius]

Willard was 37 years old, 3 years inactive and horrible to begin with. Dempsey is greater, no doubt about that, but sometimes styles can neutralize that difference. Norton wasn't great but he beat Ali. Douglas wasn't great but he beat Tyson. Etc etc.

[mcvey]

Willard was 37 years old, 3 years inactive and horrible to begin with. Dempsey is greater, no doubt about that, but sometimes styles can neutralize that difference. Norton wasn't great but he beat Ali. Douglas wasn't great but he beat Tyson. Etc etc.
Dempsey was inactive for about 3 years ,but that didnt stop a poster citing his knockdown by Tunney as evidence of a weak chin.Dempsey was kod by Flynn when young in what may or may not have been a barney he returned the favour a year later ,no one else kod him ,Firpo was crude ,but no one would say he couldnt hit.Dempsey was several levels above Tua.AND HE HAD MUCH BIGGER NUTS!

[ChrisPontius]

Tua had a cooler sounding name though. David Tua. I always liked that name. Impossible to pronounce or remember his real name.

[Maxmomer]

Tua had a cooler sounding name though. David Tua. I always liked that name. Impossible to pronounce or remember his real name.

Tuaman is the coolest nickname in boxing history. Outside of The Ghetto Wizard, that is.

[radianttwilight]

AND HE HAD MUCH BIGGER NUTS!

Harry Wills would disagree with you.

[JIm Broughton]

I think it's rather interesting how some people claim that Tua was too big and powerful for Dempsey yet in other threads some of these same people claim that Marciano, who was smaller than Dempsey would have beaten the likes of Lewis, Foreman, Ali and Frazier and yes Tua. If Tua blasts out Dempsey in 1 or 2 rounds then I shudder to think what he would do to the smaller and slower Marciano. Seems to be a bit of a double standard here. Truth be told, I think a prime Dempsey would be alot of trouble for Tua. Jack of the Firpo fight would make Tua fight at a pace that he is generally not used to fighting which could wear him out quicker than a slower paced battle against todays behemoths. Of course Tua could also end things early due to his size and power. The outcome isn't as cut and dry as some of us believe. I lean a bit toward Tua in this matchup but ti could easily go the other way.

[fists of fury]

Here's my take...Tua loses.

It's natural to assume that the bigger, stronger and possibly heavier puncher will win, I can't fault that logic. What doesn't sit well with me in Tua's case, is that I've always suspected he's not a natural fighter. He just didn't have "it."

He warred with Ike, but how many other times did he do that in his career? If there is a failing in our collective thinking, it's that since a fighter did something once, he always did it or always could do it.
For the better part of his career, Tua came in too heavy and was slow and sloppy as a result. He just didn't come in with the mindset to go 10, 12 fast rounds. Even the flat-footed Rahman, no defensive genius or genius at anything, easily evaded Tua's ponderous swings for the vast majority of their two fights. So did Maskaev and Byrd, who is very overrated defensively. Fair enough, they may fight differently to the marauding Dempsey, but they still managed to evade most of Tua's bombs. Really, none of these guys are anything wonderful. Even the strictly mediocre Fres Oquendo stretched him. Rahman and Maskaev fell eventually, but Tua always seemed to be playing catch-up on points, before a last desperate rally. Besides, Rahman was unlucky to get only a draw in the 2nd fight.
Against world class opposition that would be one thing, but are those fighters really world class? Not to me, no.

So we have Tua who is big and strong, but battles against decent opposition. If he didn't catch you early, you could stretch him quite easily.

Then, we have the fight against Lewis. Admittedly, a totally different fighter to Dempsey, but one point needs to be mentioned. Tua was pretty aggressive for the first three rounds, and then his performance dropped off completely. Maybe he felt Lewis' power or maybe it was something else, but for whatever reson, he was a tame kitten for the rest of the fight. Since it was for the title, his performance was noticeably timid. In the biggest night of his life, I find that unacceptable.

Dempsey may be the smaller fighter, but he was a fighter. And that is why I pick him. He will snarl and get on with it, but will Tua?

[punchy]

Tua was involved in two fights with the highest number of punches thrown how can anyone say Dempsey would outlast him, pick Dempsey to win but don't question a young Tua's stamina as it was great.

[fists of fury]

I know of one, the Ike fight. Which was the other?

[mcvey]

Harry Wills would disagree with you.
Dempsey signed to fight Wills in Sept 1924 ,it wasnt his fault the fight wasnt made.Did you ever see Dempsey go into his shell and fight just to survive ,the way Tua did against Lewis ? Even when Tunney was jabbing him at will in their last fight ,with his legs gone and his eyes closed Dempsey walked into the guns trying for a KO. Tua swallowed it.

[Maxmomer]

Dempsey signed to fight Wills in Sept 1924 ,it wasnt his fault the fight wasnt made.Did you ever see Dempsey go into his shell and fight just to survive ,the way Tua did against Lewis ? Even when Tunney was jabbing him at will in their last fight ,with his legs gone and his eyes closed Dempsey walked into the guns trying for a KO. Tua swallowed it.


I don't think Dempsey was racist, or afraid of Wills, there are a great many reasons Wills never got his title shot, it was all just one big fucked up mess. One of the main reasons was that Tex Rickard was dead-set against a black man fighting for the heavyweight title, and he would not promote the fight, he was THE promoter of the time, and the only time Dempsey didn't work with him during his title reign turned out to be a disaster. So, I agree with you. I also agree with those that are saying Dempsey was a more natural fighter than Tua, in my opinion Dempsey was one of the most natural "fighters" to ever lace up the gloves.

[janitor]

Harry Wills would disagree with you.

Ironicaly that is something that Harry Wills would not disagree with.

While he resented the fact that he never got to fight for the title and was scathing about most parties involved, he always respected the fact that Dempsey tried to make the fight.

[Maxmomer]

Ironicaly that is something that Harry Wills would not disagree with.

While he resented the fact that he never got to fight for the title and was scathing about most parties involved, he always respected the fact that Dempsey tried to make the fight.

Would you happen to have any details on this? Do you know how hard Dempsey persued the fight? What measures did he take to try to get the fight made? Was he just willing, but went along with it because of the politics of the time or did he really try to push for it? Do you have any quotes from Wills on Dempsey and his feelings on not getting a shot at the title? Just curious.

[SuzieQ49]

You could make a case going by resumes and dominance of era Harry Wills should be rated above jack dempsey. Its only film that holds wills ranking back. I hope people get to see that harry wills vs bartley madden film in 1924 to judge wills style and tools. I have a feeling he is a lot better than many here think, and coincidently some dempsey fans think. Dempsey has film going for him, wills does not. its unfair but a realization.

[janitor]

Would you happen to have any details on this? Do you know how hard Dempsey persued the fight? What measures did he take to try to get the fight made? Was he just willing, but went along with it because of the politics of the time or did he really try to push for it? Do you have any quotes from Wills on Dempsey and his feelings on not getting a shot at the title? Just curious.

Jack Dempsey signed contracts to fight Harry Wills twice.

The first time the state athletic comision refused to sanction the bout for fear that it would cause race riots.

The second time the promotor was not on the level and Dempseys cheque bounced.

Of course the fight didnt happen one way or another and it would have been Dempseys biggest legacy fight but it should be noted that Dempsey tried to make the fight where previous champions and some subsequent ones said "no and never" to meeting black challengers.