Rocky Graziano vs. Jose Napoles

[dpw417]

10 rounds at middleweight. (Graziano's people loved to fight welters)

[Sardu]

I like Napoles by mid-round kayo.

[Raging B(_)LL]

This is a mismatch imo. Graziano with his complete disregard for defence and wildly telegraphed overhand right is no match for a sharpshooter like Napoles. Rocky`s chin wouldn`t hold up for too long either to those scything hooks and uppercuts from Jose, who would time him with accurate counters as Graz comes in looking to find a home for that right hand of his. Napoles by early KO, say around the 4th or 5th rounds.

[BlackWater]

This is a mismatch imo. Graziano with his complete disregard for defence and wildly telegraphed overhand right is no match for a sharpshooter like Napoles. Rocky`s chin wouldn`t hold up for too long either to those scything hooks and uppercuts from Jose, who would time him with accurate counters as Graz comes in looking to find a home for that right hand of his. Napoles by early KO, say around the 4th or 5th rounds.

I agree.

[Longhhorn71]

This is a mismatch imo. Graziano with his complete disregard for defence and wildly telegraphed overhand right is no match for a sharpshooter like Napoles. Rocky`s chin wouldn`t hold up for too long either to those scything hooks and uppercuts from Jose, who would time him with accurate counters as Graz comes in looking to find a home for that right hand of his. Napoles by early KO, say around the 4th or 5th rounds.

Napoles was a natural lightweight who had to move to Welter to get a title shot.

Napoles looked "small' against Monzon.

As someone else said, Graziano loved to beat up on welters and this fight is being fought at Middleweight.

If the Rock can put away Zale he can put away Jose.

I think Rocky will walk out and start flailing until his right connects.

Rocky by TKO in 3, with both guys hitting the deck.

[BIG DEE]

BIG DEE HERE= Graziano would kill Napoles by the 6th rd unless he ran for his
life. Graziano feasted on welterweights and mean feasted as ate them alive, one of the greatest welterweights of all time was Marty Servo who`s career was cut short by Graziano. Rocky Graziano hit Servo so hard in the nose that it destroyed Marty`s face. Servo was told by doctors at the Mayo Clinic that to keep fight would probabilly cause his death with the right shot to the nose as Graziano drove his bone almost to his brain. Marty was in the hospital for
over a month from the punch. GRAZIANO`S RIGHT HAND WAS ONE OF THE HARDEST IN BOXING HISTORY, RIGHT UP THERE WITH KETCHELL`S AND
P4P WITH MAX BAER`S. I think Jose Napoles was one of the best welterweights in the history of the division but this is the wrong guy for him to fight as he hasn`t the punch to hurt Graziano. It took a puncher the like
of a Sugar Ray Robinson or Tony Zale to stop him and Jose Napoles is neither.

[Raging B(_)LL]

Napoles was a natural lightweight who had to move to Welter to get a title shot.

Napoles looked "small' against Monzon.

As someone else said, Graziano loved to beat up on welters and this fight is being fought at Middleweight.

If the Rock can put away Zale he can put away Jose.

I think Rocky will walk out and start flailing until his right connects.

Rocky by TKO in 3, with both guys hitting the deck.

While it is true that Napoles started off as a lightweight, I don`t think that will have much bearing on the outcome of this fight. Jose did grow into a fairly robust welter after a few fights at the weight, and he was a very durable guy with a great chin whereas Rocky while durable as well could be hurt and badly at that. It is my belief that Napoles was simply so much better than Rocky in almost every single category you could think of save for the possible exception of punching power that even though Rocky would have been the naturally bigger man, the huge disparity in talent between the two would have been the deciding factor here and not the difference in size.

As for Napoles looking "small" next to Monzon, I don`t see how that is relevant unless you are implying that Rocky was as big as Monzon which I disagree with. Put Rocky next to Carlos and I daresay he would look the smaller man too and not by a little either, remember that Graz was only 5`8 and was really more of a jr.middleweight than a full fledged middleweight. As for your mention of Graz being able to put away Zale thus meaning he can and would likely put away Napoles too, I have to disagree again. Zale wasn`t exactly known for his defence and ability to slip punches like Napoles was, and frankly their respetive styles couldn`t have been more different.

Zale got starched in their second meeting mainly due to fatigue from beating the crap out of Graz for the first 3-4 rounds, it was only after Zale had tired that Graz got back into the fight and came on to stop him. Napoles did not fight that way and would have simply let Rocky come to him and let him throw those wild right hands over and over again while countering the piss out of him at every turn. And should one of those right hands find their mark, Jose`s chin would have withstood the blow and he would have went right back to business.

The only possible scenario in which I can see Rocky winning this fight would be if he opened up a cut/cuts on Napoles and forced a stoppage, other than that I think he gest his clock cleaned and gets stretched for the count nine times out of ten. Rocky was a decent fighter with a great punch and tons of heart, but thats about it whereas Napoles is a genuine all-time great who does everything better and had the right style to trounce Rocky more often than not, therein lies the difference between these two.

[BIG DEE]

BIG DEE HERE= What do you mean hurt and hurt badly,are you kidding me as the only guys to stop Graziano were Zale And Robinson. Napoles punched like a pussy compared to those two guys. Napoles was beaten by Billy Backus one of the worst welterweight champions of all time. When Napoles tried to step up to middleweight he was destroyed by Monzon. He beat a weight drained Emile Griffith who looked like he wouldn`t make all 15 rds because he
had to make 147 which was utter stupidity on Grffith`s part. Napoles hit
Griffith fluse in the chin and couldn`t even hurt him with clean shots to the chin and he`s going to hurt Graziano. Let`s not eve talk about Zale as he would really pound Napoles into the ground. Oh that`s right Napoles who couldn`t do anything with Monzon but be a punching bag for 7 rds.
While Zale fought Billy Conn to a dec. in 10 but Napoles would fight a guy that
took Joe Louis to brink in a heavyweight title fight. GIVE ME A FUCKIN BREAK
PLEASE, I BEEN A BOXING HISTORIAN FOR OVER 40 YEARS AND THE CRAP I HEAR ON THIS CLASSIC SITE FROM YOUNG TWERPS THAT KNOW ABSOLUTELY NOTHING OF BOXING HISTORY RANKS MY ASS. OTHER BOXING HISTORIANS WHO USED TO COME HERE, DON`T ANYMORE BECAUSE OF THESE GUYS FROM WHERE EVER THEY COME FROM SEE A TWO MIN PIECE OF FILM AND NOW THEY EXPERTS. WHILE GUYS LIKE ME HAVE STUDIED FIGHT FILMS FOR 30,40, MORE THAN 50 YRS BUT WE DON`T KNOW A GODDAMN THING.

[Sweet Pea]

WE DON`T KNOW A GODDAMN THING.That should sum it up nicely.

[BIG DEE]

BIG DEE HERE= Oh and by the way Napoles never ever beat a MIDDLEWEIGHT
IN HIS LIFE, OR EVEN FIGHT ONE EXCEPT FOR MONZON.

[Sweet Pea]

So Big Dee, you must know something us novices don't know when Marty Servo is one of the best WW's of all time, while Backus was the worst champion of all time. Napoles's achilles heel was his skin, which Raging B(_)LL alluded to. It's also something you didn't take into consideration when discussing his cuts loss to Backus in their first fight.

Griffith was weight drained, but he was also better at MW than Graziano the way I see it. And nobody said Napoles would fight Billy Conn, you're getting too deep into things that have nothing at all to do with a matchup between two different fighters at MW.

[BIG DEE]

BIG DEE HERE= Of couse I know that`s all part of being a fighter. His eye cuts
were a problem for him but the Buckus fight was a perfect example of his weakness`s Backus wasn`t the puncher that Graziano or Zale was and absolutely cut Napoles to fuckin ribbons over both eyes so it wasn`t an
accident. Marty Servo was an all time great untill Graziano destroyed him
Servo gave Ray Robinson two of the hardest fights he ever fought losing
a UD in the first fight but handing Robinson a beating on the inside where
he didn`t go dancing that night. In the second fight the fight was a SD
where the crowd thought that Marty Servo won the fight and BOOed
loudly. 15,000 people weren`t wrong as Servo kicked Rays ass that night
referee Cavanaugh had it 5-3-2 Servo, judge Healy had it 6-3-1 Robinson
and judge Curly had it and I don`t know what fight he was watching 9-1 Robinson and the only time in Sugar Ray Robinson`s the people in NYC booed and threw things into the ring in discust over the dec. MARTY SERVO WAS A VERY GOOD WELTERWEIGHT. RAY ROBINSON CALLED MARTY SERVO ONE OF THE BEST FIGHTERS HE EVER FOUGHT IN HIS PRIME AS A WELTERWEIGHT.
THAT COME`SFROM THE BEST WELTERWEIGHT WHO EVER LIVED.

[teeto]

The fight is a mis-mastch (that may be harsh, but its almost along those lines) in a p4p sense. At 160 hard to say, because Napoles hasnt done anything there for me to say he could do something here, and Graziano could be a menace in the ring, and punch.

Anyway, Napoles would need to box masterfully imo, which he can, he can catch Rocky when hes disregarding defence with those unorthodox hooks and uppercuts and get back out in time. But i dont know if Napoles is the type to keep this up ALL-NIGHT, and Graziano may get to him later.

Anyway, i must make a pick, and i'll just go with Napoles as he was one of the very very finest in his own division, and Graziano is somewhat off that by a good bit imo, in terms of historical greatness. Napoles should be the underdog though

[fists of fury]

PLEASE, I BEEN A BOXING HISTORIAN FOR OVER 40 YEARS AND THE CRAP I HEAR ON THIS CLASSIC SITE FROM YOUNG TWERPS THAT KNOW ABSOLUTELY NOTHING OF BOXING HISTORY RANKS MY ASS. OTHER BOXING HISTORIANS WHO USED TO COME HERE, DON`T ANYMORE BECAUSE OF THESE GUYS FROM WHERE EVER THEY COME FROM SEE A TWO MIN PIECE OF FILM AND NOW THEY EXPERTS. WHILE GUYS LIKE ME HAVE STUDIED FIGHT FILMS FOR 30,40, MORE THAN 50 YRS BUT WE DON`T KNOW A GODDAMN THING.

Fair enough, but it's all good, don't you think? If you feel someone is wrong on a point, use that knowledge to prove otherwise. Freaking out is helping nobody.

[Grebfan9]

Charley Fusari and Tony Janiro, two good boxers, gave Graziano
a tough time.

I don't think that Fusari or Janiro were as good as Napoles.

Napoles was a better puncher than Janiro and Fusari and had
a great defense.

Napoles' loss to Monzon was at the end of Jose' career and Monzon
was a tall middleweight with a hard jab.

Graziano has a punchers chance but I lean towards Napoles in this one.

BTW, Graziano also was cut in a number of fights, so Napoles is not
the only one with this problem.


Grebfan9
[Only registered and activated users can see links] ([Only registered and activated users can see links])

[jaywilton]

Graziano;I don't see Napoles boxing a flawless enough fight-and Graziano was dangerous.

[BIG DEE]

BIG DEE HERE = Lets get it straight about Napoles he fought a welterweight division that wasn`t a patch on the welterweight division that was in the 40s NOT A PATCH. Napoles wouldn`t have been champion in the 40s as a guy like Fritzie Zivic with Napoles ability to bleed at the drop of a hat would have cut him up with heels and laces. Sugar Ray Robinson and Kid Gavalan would have cut him to ribbons. Fusari and Janiro would both had been champions in the 60s Especially at Jr Middleweight. AND OTHER THAN MONZON NAPOLES
NEVER EVER FOUGHT A MIDDLEWEIGHT. UNLIKE FUSARI AND JANIRO WHO FOUGHT GUYS THAT WERE TRAINED DOWN LT HEAVYWEIGHTS LIKE JAKE LA MOTTA.

[mcvey]

BIG DEE HERE= Graziano would kill Napoles by the 6th rd unless he ran for his
life. Graziano feasted on welterweights and mean feasted as ate them alive, one of the greatest welterweights of all time was Marty Servo who`s career was cut short by Graziano. Rocky Graziano hit Servo so hard in the nose that it destroyed Marty`s face. Servo was told by doctors at the Mayo Clinic that to keep fight would probabilly cause his death with the right shot to the nose as Graziano drove his bone almost to his brain. Marty was in the hospital for
over a month from the punch. GRAZIANO`S RIGHT HAND WAS ONE OF THE HARDEST IN BOXING HISTORY, RIGHT UP THERE WITH KETCHELL`S AND
P4P WITH MAX BAER`S. I think Jose Napoles was one of the best welterweights in the history of the division but this is the wrong guy for him to fight as he hasn`t the punch to hurt Graziano. It took a puncher the like
of a Sugar Ray Robinson or Tony Zale to stop him and Jose Napoles is neither.
I think this is a pretty even fight actually,Graziano has the power ,Napoles has the class,Rocky was a small middleweight and Jose a big lightweight.Napoles had issues with cut eyes but he was a wonderfully accurate puncher and a decent hitter.Graziano was a wildman who got Zale on the way out he had serious power in his right and the killer instinct to match it .I think Napoles could pull it off ,though Rocky has a live punchers chance ,imo he was a moderate champion , Napoles several steps above him in ability.By the way Big Dee ,before you start foaming at the mouth I'm nearly 60,and have followed boxing since I was 8 years old ,but I can and do still learn on this site and, imo ,so can you.

[red cobra]

I've always liked Rocky Graziano, but Jose Napoles would have outclassed him. Rocky had no defense worth speaking of, and he would have been beaten to a pulp by the super accurate Mantequilla. It would gone about 8 rounds with Jose having a field day landing short, deadly left hooks and rights to the body, setting up Rocky for a blistering attack to the head in the eighth, with two knockdowns convincing the ref to stop the fight. They didn't call him Mantequilla for nothing. Napoles was bad medicine for a walk-in slugger, ANY walk-in slugger.

[Raging B(_)LL]

BIG DEE HERE= What do you mean hurt and hurt badly,are you kidding me as the only guys to stop Graziano were Zale And Robinson. Napoles punched like a pussy compared to those two guys. Napoles was beaten by Billy Backus one of the worst welterweight champions of all time. When Napoles tried to step up to middleweight he was destroyed by Monzon. He beat a weight drained Emile Griffith who looked like he wouldn`t make all 15 rds because he
had to make 147 which was utter stupidity on Grffith`s part. Napoles hit
Griffith fluse in the chin and couldn`t even hurt him with clean shots to the chin and he`s going to hurt Graziano. Let`s not eve talk about Zale as he would really pound Napoles into the ground. Oh that`s right Napoles who couldn`t do anything with Monzon but be a punching bag for 7 rds.
While Zale fought Billy Conn to a dec. in 10 but Napoles would fight a guy that
took Joe Louis to brink in a heavyweight title fight. GIVE ME A FUCKIN BREAK
PLEASE, I BEEN A BOXING HISTORIAN FOR OVER 40 YEARS AND THE CRAP I HEAR ON THIS CLASSIC SITE FROM YOUNG TWERPS THAT KNOW ABSOLUTELY NOTHING OF BOXING HISTORY RANKS MY ASS. OTHER BOXING HISTORIANS WHO USED TO COME HERE, DON`T ANYMORE BECAUSE OF THESE GUYS FROM WHERE EVER THEY COME FROM SEE A TWO MIN PIECE OF FILM AND NOW THEY EXPERTS. WHILE GUYS LIKE ME HAVE STUDIED FIGHT FILMS FOR 30,40, MORE THAN 50 YRS BUT WE DON`T KNOW A GODDAMN THING.

Hey buddy, take a chill pill why don`t ya, no need to get so upset over someone having a different opinion than yours. Seeing as you claim you have been following the sport for over 40-50 years, I would think that someone your age would be a tad more mature when engaging in a debate with another adult. Now that I got that out of the way, what is your gripe with me saying that Graz could be hurt and hurt real bad at that?

Rocky didn`t have an iron jaw after all, what he did have was an indomitable will and fighting spirit which meant that unlike other fighters who would look to hold on or clinch to get their bearings back, Rocky would fight it out while still in a daze and trade punches. And for my money doing that against someone as accurate and hard hitting as Napoles is tantamount to suicide as he was so accurate and would especially be so against someone with as porous a defence as Graziano`s.

You keep harping on about Napoles loss to Monzon as if it were some kind of a black eye on his stellar record, yet you seem to completely over the fact that Monzon was an ALL-TIME GREAT MIDDLEWEIGHT and a big one at that, it is not as if Napoles got beaten by some tomato can here now is it? I dunno about you, but I doubt that Graziano would have fared any better and I daresay that he would have had even less success against Carlos than Napoles did, as Monzon was a deadly accurate puncher as well and with Rocky`s chin hanging in the air the way it did it would be a very inviting and easy to reach target to say the least.

Napoles was no punching bag in that fight for the first 4 rounds as you claim, he was doing pretty good in my book considering the huge disparity in size between the two and Graziano sure as shit wouldn`t have done any better.Anyways, I won`t bother going on about this topic as my opinion shall not change on the outcome of this fight. If you feel Graziano was one of the all-time great middleweights/welterweights and would have flattened Napoles like a bug then so be it, but don`t get so touchy when someone else thinks different from you as I did.

[Sweet Pea]

BIG DEE HERE = Lets get it straight about Napoles he fought a welterweight division that wasn`t a patch on the welterweight division that was in the 40s NOT A PATCH. Napoles wouldn`t have been champion in the 40s as a guy like Fritzie Zivic with Napoles ability to bleed at the drop of a hat would have cut him up with heels and laces. Sugar Ray Robinson and Kid Gavalan would have cut him to ribbons. Fusari and Janiro would both had been champions in the 60s Especially at Jr Middleweight. AND OTHER THAN MONZON NAPOLES
NEVER EVER FOUGHT A MIDDLEWEIGHT. UNLIKE FUSARI AND JANIRO WHO FOUGHT GUYS THAT WERE TRAINED DOWN LT HEAVYWEIGHTS LIKE JAKE LA MOTTA.At first you don't mention cuts, now you seem to be stuck to that mode of thinking. So every top notch fighter that Napoles faces would beat him by cuts stoppage now? If Zivic were able to get the fight stopped on cuts, it's his only chance, otherwise he gets outclassed.

Robinson and Gavilan would've been great fights, with Gavilan/Napoles being about 50/50 the way I see it, though I think Napoles was the more skilled pure boxer of the two.

[BIG DEE]

BIG DEE HERE= Why do I have to mention cuts as there a part of the game of which anybody that knows Napoles knows he`s a bleeder and a bad one at that. Why I keep talking about the Monzon fight is very simple as Napoles
never fought a middleweight or any big man above 147lbs. Napoles wasn`t in any part of the fight with Monzon as Carlos used him as a sparring partner
before they stopped it. The thing is that a man who never beat a middleweight of any kind is going to beat one of the most destructive middleweights of the 20th century who absolutely destroyed welterweights.
If Whitey Bimstein had had Graziano train a little harder to make 147 which he could have done we would be talking about Graziano as one of the greatest welterweight champions of all time as Rocky Graziano was a light middleweight at between 152 to 155lbs. usually.

[dpw417]

Bump...Any opinions on this one (again)?
I can see Napoles connecting with brutal hooks and uppercuts as he rolls inside those looping right hand bombs...But on the other hand, I can't see Napoles being able to unseat a Tony Zale at any point...Not a knock at all, this isn't his weight class. the thread comparing Rodriguez and Napoles made me want to dig this one up.

[red cobra]

A brutal ko for the magnificent Mantequilla..on the order of his one shot demolition of Erlie Lopez in their second bout. Before that would happen, poor Rocky would be totally outclassed.

[burt bienstock]

BIG DEE HERE= What do you mean hurt and hurt badly,are you kidding me as the only guys to stop Graziano were Zale And Robinson. Napoles punched like a pussy compared to those two guys. Napoles was beaten by Billy Backus one of the worst welterweight champions of all time. When Napoles tried to step up to middleweight he was destroyed by Monzon. He beat a weight drained Emile Griffith who looked like he wouldn`t make all 15 rds because he
had to make 147 which was utter stupidity on Grffith`s part. Napoles hit
Griffith fluse in the chin and couldn`t even hurt him with clean shots to the chin and he`s going to hurt Graziano. Let`s not eve talk about Zale as he would really pound Napoles into the ground. Oh that`s right Napoles who couldn`t do anything with Monzon but be a punching bag for 7 rds.
While Zale fought Billy Conn to a dec. in 10 but Napoles would fight a guy that
took Joe Louis to brink in a heavyweight title fight. GIVE ME A FUCKIN BREAK
PLEASE, I BEEN A BOXING HISTORIAN FOR OVER 40 YEARS AND THE CRAP I HEAR ON THIS CLASSIC SITE FROM YOUNG TWERPS THAT KNOW ABSOLUTELY NOTHING OF BOXING HISTORY RANKS MY ASS. OTHER BOXING HISTORIANS WHO USED TO COME HERE, DON`T ANYMORE BECAUSE OF THESE GUYS FROM WHERE EVER THEY COME FROM SEE A TWO MIN PIECE OF FILM AND NOW THEY EXPERTS. WHILE GUYS LIKE ME HAVE STUDIED FIGHT FILMS FOR 30,40, MORE THAN 50 YRS BUT WE DON`T KNOW A GODDAMN THING.
Big Dee, I am one of the few "oldtimers" still kicking on ESB. I saw Rocky
Graziano ,fight ringside many, many times from his prelim days to his
first Zale fight. Graziano was absolutely ruined by the three Zale wars.
He went downhill after that. Young savage Graziano ruined the tough
Welterweight Marty Servo, ending his promising career. Servo as you posted gave prime welterweight Ray Robinson two hellish fights, both
disputed decisions. But the Graziano I remember was at MSG in 1945 when Rocky an 8-1 underdog kod the sensational young puncher Billy Arnold, who was a coming welterweight "Joe Louis". Billy Arnold like Marty Servo were
never the same after young Graziano got through with them..The most
EXCITING fighter I ever saw.
If he fought Napoles, both at their primes, Rocky would be 7 pounds
heavier than Jose, and that is important in Rocky's favor. On the other hand Rocky had trouble against Charley Fusari, a smaller welterweight
in 1949 ,AFTER the 3 Zale wars. Fusari was at his best , Rocky was fading.
Tough call for me, but pressed for an answer I'll go with the Rocky that
utterly destroyed welters as Freddie Red Cochrane [not in Napoles class] twice and the great young rival of Ray Robinson, Marty Servo. An animal against smaller welterweights...

[lora]

BIG DEE!:lol:

What a terrible poster he was.

[he grant]

Napoles dices him up and stops him inside of ten .. Jose a much, much better fighter ...

[burt bienstock]

Napoles dices him up and stops him inside of ten .. Jose a much, much better fighter ...
Yes he, Napoles was a much better fighter than Graziano pound for pound.
But the seven or so pound advantage Graziano would have along with
his tremendous fury as grabbing an opponent in a corner with his left hand under the chin, and smashing his opponents head, can nullify the smaller Napoles superior boxing abilities. He used any and all means he could get away with to win...Same weights no contest, but 7 pounds spotting a vicious young Graziano, is a tall order for even the talented Jose Napoles...

[burt bienstock]

I tried to respond to Big Dee, but didn't realize his post was in 2008....

[laxpdx]

Mantequilla is a great all-around fighter, but being this is at 154/160, Graziano would be the stronger man. His relentless mauling style would present a handfull for Jose, and being thin-skinned doesn't help Napoles. Mantequilla lays his share of good shots before Rocky eventually overtakes him.

[MRBILL]

10 rounds at middleweight. (Graziano's people loved to fight welters)

Naps is the better fighter overall, but Graziano is more tuff and rugged with power at 155 pounds... Naps does well early, but begins to feel the strength and wrath of Graziano late...

A controversial draw that both men claim they won...:deal

MR.BILL:hat