Did the exile hurt Ali's legacy or did it help it?

[Bokaj]

I think a case can be made for both alternatives actually (even if most probably know what I personally think), so I would like to hear your opinions on this.

[GazOC]

It helped it, it allowed a new generation of heavys to establish a reputation. The wins against Foreman and Frazier look (are!) more impressive than if Ali had of met them as an established champ defending against undefeated Olympians.

[Bokaj]

It helped it, it allowed a new generation of heavys to establish a reputation. The wins against Foreman and Frazier look (are!) more impressive than if Ali had of met them as an established champ defending against undefeated Olympians.

That is true.

But don't you think that Ali would have had a very long reign as champ if not for the exile? I mean, he could have beaten both Louis's and Marciano's records.

[rendog67]

hard to say i dont think any exile should help a fighters legacy there will be arguements for both, but im saying no

[GazOC]

That is true.

But don't you think that Ali would have had a very long reign as champ if not for the exile? I mean, he could have beaten both Louis's and Marciano's records.

I think he quite possibly could have beaten both records but his career would have been a lot less dramatic. Frazier and Forman would have been dismissed by historians as green kids who got rushed into a shot with an ATG and got exposed. With the retirement Foreman and Frazier had the chance to prove they are ATGs and THEN Ali beat them.

So I guess from a cold stats point of view the break harmed Ali (it certainly deminished his skils) but when you look back at his complete career I think it helped him become what he his.

[fists of fury]

From a physical standpoint it obviously hurt him, but from a legacy standoint it helped a lot.

[Bokaj]

When do you think that his reign would have ended if not for the exile? Against Frazier, Norton, Holmes, someone else? Would he have retired undefeated?

[Addie]

From any standpoint, it hurt his legacy. In all probability, Ali wouldn't have lost for a long time, and the Frazier first would have been more competitive. It hurt his legacy.

[GazOC]

When do you think that his reign would have ended if not for the exile? Against Frazier, Norton, Holmes, someone else? Would he have retired undefeated?

Hard to say, motivation might have gotten to be a problem and he could have lost to a lesser fighter. Of the guys you've listed I don't think Frazier would have beaten Ali at any point in there careers but for the layoff. Norton is a funny one, he seemed to have style to beat Ali after his layoff, maybe that would have been a style Ali would have had trouble with even without the layoff. Holmes in 77-78 would have a good shout.

[Addie]

When do you think that his reign would have ended if not for the exile? Against Frazier, Norton, Holmes, someone else? Would he have retired undefeated?

He would most likely find his first defeat in the form of Norton I, but even that is just speculation. Ali would have most certainly have a better record if not for the exile, that I'm almost certain of.

[GazOC]

From any standpoint, it hurt his legacy. In all probability, Ali wouldn't have lost for a long time, and the Frazier first would have been more competitive. It hurt his legacy.

I disagree, without the layoff Ali fights Frazier in 1969 and a champion in his prime beats a young challenger by comfortable UD . With the layoff Ali goes 2-1 with a fellow ATG when past him prime (its true to say Frazier was also shopworn for the 3rd fight). Far more impressive IMHO.

[bigjake]

the exile made him even more popular,but it hurt him as a fighter.took away his best years i feel

bigjake

[GazOC]

Ali would have most certainly have a better record if not for the exile, that I'm almost certain of.

I think thats undisputable but for his legacy as a whole letting these young guys come up and prove themselves while he was retired and then coming back a beating them does a lot more for his legacy then a few extra wins and couple less loses.

[Azania]

I say it hurt him physically...but legacywise it helped him.If the Foreman fight had happened before exile,it would'nt have had the impact it did in Ali's career IMO.Even tho I think,an absolute prime Ali would have made George look silly in the ring.Too fast and too busy for George....would have got gassed just chasing Ali around that ring.

And so yeah,the exile helped his legacy for sure.

[Bokaj]

But let's say that he never went into exile and ruled supreme for 14 years until he lost to Holmes in 1978 with 30+ defenses under his belt (I'm not saying he necessarily would reign that long, but if he did), could anyone dispute his standing as the nr. 1 HW? Wouldn't he have a good claim to be seen as one of the very best p4p, even?

[PaddyD1983]

But let's say that he never went into exile and ruled supreme for 14 years until he lost to Holmes in 1978 with 30+ defenses under his belt (I'm not saying he necessarily would reign that long, but if he did), could anyone dispute his standing as the nr. 1 HW? Wouldn't he have a good claim to be seen as one of the very best p4p, even?

I think he would have been beaten by Norton anyway (just seemed to have Ali's number) but not sure about how it would have affected his legacy. I can see both sides of the coin too.

One thing I do know is that I would have loved to have seen more of the Ali that danced around Cleveland Williams. By the time he came back he wasnt the same fighter and couldnt put on that kind of show anymore

[ironchamp]

But let's say that he never went into exile and ruled supreme for 14 years until he lost to Holmes in 1978 with 30+ defenses under his belt (I'm not saying he necessarily would reign that long, but if he did), could anyone dispute his standing as the nr. 1 HW? Wouldn't he have a good claim to be seen as one of the very best p4p, even?

It would but inevitability his quality of opposition would have been undermined.

His layoff gave fighters a chance to establish themselves are great fighters in thier own right. His quality of opposition, at least the perception of it was improved by his abscence.

So in that regard yes it did help tremendously.

[GazOC]

One thing I do know is that I would have loved to have seen more of the Ali that danced around Cleveland Williams. By the time he came back he wasnt the same fighter and couldnt put on that kind of show anymore

Thats my big regret as well, I'd have loved to see Ali in those years. Big, fast, strong, good movement, good ring brain...he would have put on some amazing shows in those years in he had been able to.

[Bokaj]

I think he would have been beaten by Norton anyway (just seemed to have Ali's number) but not sure about how it would have affected his legacy. I can see both sides of the coin too.

One thing I do know is that I would have loved to have seen more of the Ali that danced around Cleveland Williams. By the time he came back he wasnt the same fighter and couldnt put on that kind of show anymore

Yeah, if anyone would have beaten him before he got too old it would have been Norton. He would have avenged it of course, but it would have made a dent in his record. Losing to a boxer as good as Holmes at 35+ wouldn't really be held against him, but if he lost to Norton in his early 30's it would have diminished his aura of invincibility somewhat.

[Bokaj]

Thats my big regret as well, I'd have loved to see Ali in those years. Big, fast, strong, good movement, good ring brain...he would have put on some amazing shows in those years in he had been able to.

Yeah, he was still getting better when he was forced into exile. What a fighter he would have been around 27-29 years of age. Too bad the world never got to see that.

[sthomas]

From a physical standpoint it obviously hurt him, but from a legacy standoint it helped a lot.

Yes!:good

[ChrisPontius]

Ali would've probably been seen stronger head-to-head but weaker resume-wise. Although it wasn't planned, going away for three years built up his opponents and gave his legacy a tremendous boost. Louis should've taken notes, but then he did go to war and retired rather quickly after.

[radianttwilight]

Ali would've probably been seen stronger head-to-head but weaker resume-wise. Although it wasn't planned, going away for three years built up his opponents and gave his legacy a tremendous boost. Louis should've taken notes, but then he did go to war and retired rather quickly after.


I agree.

Let's keep in mind, also, that if Ali did fight and defeat Frazier in 1968/1969, the win wouldn't count for much. It probably wouldn't of even been the "FOTC", really, if Frazier was just another contender, albeit a good one.

And since Frazier wouldn't be as highly regarded, Foreman wouldn't have been a "future ATG". He would've been a crude, hard-punching but limited Olympic champ.

The layoff helped his resume because he came back and beat most of the better guys anyway.

[Chinxkid]

Yeah, he was still getting better when he was forced into exile. What a fighter he would have been around 27-29 years of age. Too bad the world never got to see that.

Agreed. But Ali's refusal to go into the military, his refusal to go to Vietnam and, "Kill other poor, (brown) people," was what made his legacy as a man.

[Longhhorn71]

Yeah, he was still getting better when he was forced into exile. What a fighter he would have been around 27-29 years of age. Too bad the world never got to see that.

Ali was not forced into exile.

He got drafted when he refused to "step forward" when the time came
to be sworn into the military.

All his legal problems he brought down on himself (he knew what he was doing all along,,,,,and had adequate legal adivce from his lawyers).

[Addie]

Ali was not forced into exile.

He got drafted when he refused to "step forward" when the time came
to be sworn into the military.

All his legal problems he brought down on himself (he knew what he was doing all along,,,,,and had adequate legal adivce from his lawyers).

Get aload of this guy. :patsch

[Bokaj]

This is how a see Ali's career unfolding if not for the exile:

1967-1969: He cleans out the division, breezes through guys like Spencer, Quarry, Bonavena, Ellis, Ramos and Mac Foster. His most noteworthy defense during this time is against the impressive contender Joe Frazier, that some feel beforehand can really trouble Ali. Knowing Frazier is a slow starter Ali goes out quick and start throwing combinations behind the jab earlier than usual. After losing almost all of the first 5 rounds Frazier comes out in the sixth like he's just getting started and starts to get to Ali with the left hook more. Ali takes some of the best punches he's ever taken and loses most of the middle rounds. But this is Ali at his absolute peak, and in the tenth and eleventh rounds he comes back strong and rocks Joe. He takes enough of the remaining rounds to win a fairly comfortable decision. Frazier has the puffy, marked face of the two, but Ali walks gingerly out of the ring and the effect of Frazier's hooks are highly visible on the right side of his jaw.

1970-1975: At the beginning of the decade there doesn't seem to be anyone who can really challenge Ali. He wins rematches against Chuvalo and Bonavena and easily dispatches of a couple of other challengers before all of a sudden George Foreman comes along as the next big thing after destroying a comebacking Joe Frazier. He is touted as being a young version of Liston and is fancied by some to actually beat Ali since Ali's chin hasn't really been that tested yet. But Ali silences the doubters by giving Foreman a thorough boxing lesson and knocking him out late. Foreman lands a couple of good punches, but all that does is to prove once and for all Ali can take a good punch.

After that Ali rematches Quarry and Patterson and beats Bob Foster and Bugner before he takes on Frazier again, in the end of 1972. This time Ali fights more cautiously during the first 10 rounds - dancing behind the jab and clinching when Fraziers gets close - but turns it on for the last five. He has Frazier in some trouble in these rounds, but Frazier responds in turn and rocks him. In the last round Frazier, desperately behind on points, chases and Ali plays it safe. He wins a clear UD.

By now Ali's supremacy is total and his only real opponent seems to be advancing age. But in the very next fight Ken Norton comes out of nowhere and gives Ali his toughest fight ever. Ali doesn't suffer a broken jaw in this one, though, and manages to grind out a close and somewhat controversial decision. After dispatching of Lyle and Shavers he gives Norton a rematch in 1974. Also this one is very tough, but Ali's better prepared and wins an un-controversial but still pretty close decision. After that he claims a couple of easy victories - rematches Bugner and defeats Wepner among others. Then in 1975 he encounters surprisingly tough resistance from Jimmy Young, but takes home the UD.

1976-1979: Ali's age is really beginning to make itself known during these years, but he still has enough to beat his challengers. He defeats a Coopman and wins a rematch over Young before taking on former sparring partner Larry Holmes in late 1976. Ali takes home a close and somewhat controversial decision. He makes two more easy defenses (Evangelista being one of them) and then retires, beating both Marciano's and Louis's records with some margin and is considered by most to be the greatest heavyweight ever. Some even wants to compare him to the great Sugar Ray.

After a year in retirement he gets restless, though, and challenges Holmes for the title. Holmes has improved since their first meeting while Ali has visibly faded. Larry wins clearly, but Ali manages to go the distance. He retires for a final time.

[AREA 53]

I Remember when Ali returnd from Exile, a lot of Experts were trotting out that old Boxing Maxim " They Never Come Back" Ali's Answer was " They Do if Their Good Enough " and so it subsequently Proved

Pre Exile a lot of Good Judges Felt Ali would Surrender, or Quit if Dragged into a War, the Seventies Proved he had an Iron Will to back up the Style, Ali coming Back from the Layoff, And the Frazier Defeat seemed to enhance his Legacy, its a pity he drifted along and put in some indiffrent performances, instead of putting out his Best Effort each time, However if he did that Many of his Matches would have been deemed ultra mismatches and not attractions, But the Ali Roadshow, keeping Tv and Fans happy by givin them Rounds for their Bucks seemed a happy compromise

[J-Dog]

Covering what most people already said like but anyway...True he became personally near Hero by avoiding draft and losing his title, but in a way we will never know how much it affected his legacy as a boxer.

Those 3-1/2yrs out would have been his best, no doubt, it was his peak as a fighter, take a look at Williams / Zora Folley, he was always confident but something in him had changed around then, he had reached his peak, any heavyweight over the coming 3-4yrs would not have got near him, think he was good when Liston couldnt lay a glove on him when he was green......his peak would have been something else, he was red-hot and would have danced with and destroyed all comers, its like never seeing the 2-3 years when Tyson was awesome and at his peak.....

What we missed we'll never know, what we gained we all know.

:| The Auditorium stood and cheered as J-Dog left the stage in tears following his legendary speech....:|

[Dempsey1238]

This is how a see Ali's career unfolding if not for the exile:

1967-1969: He cleans out the division, breezes through guys like Spencer, Quarry, Bonavena, Ellis, Ramos and Mac Foster. His most noteworthy defense during this time is against the impressive contender Joe Frazier, that some feel beforehand can really trouble Ali. Knowing Frazier is a slow starter Ali goes out quick and start throwing combinations behind the jab earlier than usual. After losing almost all of the first 5 rounds Frazier comes out in the sixth like he's just getting started and starts to get to Ali with the left hook more. Ali takes some of the best punches he's ever taken and loses most of the middle rounds. But this is Ali at his absolute peak, and in the tenth and eleventh rounds he comes back strong and rocks Joe. He takes enough of the remaining rounds to win a fairly comfortable decision. Frazier has the puffy, marked face of the two, but Ali walks gingerly out of the ring and the effect of Frazier's hooks are highly visible on the right side of his jaw.

1970-1975: At the beginning of the decade there doesn't seem to be anyone who can really challenge Ali. He wins rematches against Chuvalo and Bonavena and easily dispatches of a couple of other challengers before all of a sudden George Foreman comes along as the next big thing after destroying a comebacking Joe Frazier. He is touted as being a young version of Liston and is fancied by some to actually beat Ali since Ali's chin hasn't really been that tested yet. But Ali silences the doubters by giving Foreman a thorough boxing lesson and knocking him out late. Foreman lands a couple of good punches, but all that does is to prove once and for all Ali can take a good punch.

After that Ali rematches Quarry and Patterson and beats Bob Foster and Bugner before he takes on Frazier again, in the end of 1972. This time Ali fights more cautiously during the first 10 rounds - dancing behind the jab and clinching when Fraziers gets close - but turns it on for the last five. He has Frazier in some trouble in these rounds, but Frazier responds in turn and rocks him. In the last round Frazier, desperately behind on points, chases and Ali plays it safe. He wins a clear UD.

By now Ali's supremacy is total and his only real opponent seems to be advancing age. But in the very next fight Ken Norton comes out of nowhere and gives Ali his toughest fight ever. Ali doesn't suffer a broken jaw in this one, though, and manages to grind out a close and somewhat controversial decision. After dispatching of Lyle and Shavers he gives Norton a rematch in 1974. Also this one is very tough, but Ali's better prepared and wins an un-controversial but still pretty close decision. After that he claims a couple of easy victories - rematches Bugner and defeats Wepner among others. Then in 1975 he encounters surprisingly tough resistance from Jimmy Young, but takes home the UD.

1976-1979: Ali's age is really beginning to make itself known during these years, but he still has enough to beat his challengers. He defeats a Coopman and wins a rematch over Young before taking on former sparring partner Larry Holmes in late 1976. Ali takes home a close and somewhat controversial decision. He makes two more easy defenses (Evangelista being one of them) and then retires, beating both Marciano's and Louis's records with some margin and is considered by most to be the greatest heavyweight ever. Some even wants to compare him to the great Sugar Ray.

After a year in retirement he gets restless, though, and challenges Holmes for the title. Holmes has improved since their first meeting while Ali has visibly faded. Larry wins clearly, but Ali manages to go the distance. He retires for a final time.

Ali would have lost way before 1976, Norton always has the style problems, and if Ali beats Fraizer in 1969, there WILL be a rematch in 71 or so when Fraizer is ready.

[Bokaj]

The rematch could well be in 1971. In my scenario Frazier's gets beaten by Foreman on his comeback and therefore doesn't get another shot until 1972. But in either case I believe Ali would have won. He would still be under 30 and probably even better than he was in 1967. I don't see Frazier beating that version of Ali if he's properly prepared.

Norton would always be trouble for Ali, but seeing how close it was in real life (at least on the judges score cards) I feel Ali would have nicked if it hadn't been for the lay-off.

[Dempsey1238]

Foreman didnt get into the title pic until 73 though, Fraizer still gets a other shot vs Ali in 71 imo.

[Bokaj]

Foreman was ranked nr. 2 by the Ring Magazine for 1970, so considering that Ali would have beaten just about every other challenger I think it's reasonable to guess that he would have gotten his title shot in 1971. But of course it could have been later.

The reason why he didn't get a shot at the title until 1973 was that Frazier took it very, very easy after FOTC, only taking on two unranked challengers during the following two years. At the beginning of 1973 Foreman had been ranked second, third and second for the three previous years, so it was either him or Ali (who had been ranked as number one for the whole of that period). Foreman was probably thought to be the easier of the two, but...