was Leonard the favorite when he fought Terry Norris??? [Archive]

Vantage_West

05-17-2008, 01:52 PM

you got to remember norris hadnt shown that much in his career he looked ot be a chinny undisciplined overachiever.

he had been brutally blown apart by jackson (people forget that norris got up from it) he had been outpointed and had a dq on his resume before this. he looked the weakest title holder at the time. and he had a pretty short reach for his hieght.leonard def picked norris to be his prize chicken. thinking his bigger size and power would of been enough to dominate him.
also norris was billed at 5'8 or 5'7 somwhere. so i think leonard thought he would have a hieght advantage aswell.

leonard was a decent fav but most in th eknow knew that ray had been sliding off... after he had been knocked down in most of his previous fights. and it wasnt a hagler he was with it was a youthful active and pacey fighter he was with.

looking back i would of given norris a pretty good chance when leonard was at light middlewieght.

also very strange that this was the only time leonard was at MSG...

redrooster

05-17-2008, 02:46 PM

anyone know??

and anyone know at what odds??

I remember this fight well. In fact, I had been waiting for it knowing the suffering and humiliation that lay ahead for him.

The Terrible one was heavily favored to win, 3-1 if I remember correctly. Still, I haven't found one soul who actually came out publicly before hand predicting a Norris win.

People didn't realize at the time leonard's weaknesses as a fighter which were overlooked in the Hearns fight and resurfaced once again. Terry was asking some pretty hard questions from Ray, questions he wasn't able to answer and came apart quite easily the first time he met up with someone who made things complicated for him.

Norris was absolutely brilliant in this fight, his second best career performance against a big name. Terry's constant movement and fast combinations had Leonard confused and reeling by the end of the second and by the thrid round, already had Ray in his hip pocket.

redrooster

05-17-2008, 02:49 PM

In fact, the Norris fight is where I got this remark from "It only take one good zinging Sugar ray leonard punch to turn things around" brought to you by the famous fight doctor Ferdie Pacheco

brownpimp88

05-17-2008, 02:50 PM

Even the Ray Leonard in 1984 looked very mediocre at 154, he would get owned by norris everytime.

Sweet Pea

05-17-2008, 02:53 PM

Norris was great at 154, took an excellent punch.

M_Id6-oOY1U

brownpimp88

05-17-2008, 02:56 PM

Norris was great at 154, took an excellent punch.

M_Id6-oOY1U
Yeah cuz getting ko'd by julian jackson is a joke right.

Sweet Pea

05-17-2008, 03:00 PM

Yeah cuz getting ko'd by julian jackson is a joke right.No, but I didn't have the link to the Simon Brown or Keith Mullings fights.

Mantequilla

05-17-2008, 03:15 PM

Norris was a prime example for why we should not have most of the junior weights.

Glassed chinned, poor ring-general that would have got nowhere near a belt had he fought at middleweight.

redrooster

05-17-2008, 03:23 PM

Yeah cuz getting ko'd by julian jackson is a joke right.

Brownpimp88 this is nothing more than sour grapes for the humiliation at the hands of Norris. it's bad enough that Norris just beat him but to do it with the ease with which he did it kills them. This is the reason why it was hushed up in the press including Sports Illustrated article written by William Nack, AKA spindoctor and sportswriter.

All fans know Leonard can't claim supremacy as a fighter because he couldn't beat Norris, the kind of fighter with just the right attributes I said would do the job. These people hate the fact It's considered sacriledge to bring up this fight and are ashamed of the fact. Because of this they like to bring forth the fighter who could do what leonard could not-Julian Jackson.

Like i said before, Leonard was a good fighter and fought valiantly but he's no Julian Jackson.

Sweet Pea

05-17-2008, 03:26 PM

Brownpimp88 this is nothing more than sour grapes for the humiliation at the hands of Norris. it's bad enough that Norris just beat him but to do it with the ease with which he did it kills them. This is the reason why it was hushed up in the press including Sports Illustrated article written by William Nack, AKA spindoctor and sportswriter.

All fans know Leonard can't claim supremacy as a fighter because he couldn't beat Norris, the kind of fighter with just the right attributes I said would do the job. These people hate the fact It's considered sacriledge to bring up this fight and are ashamed of the fact. Because of this they like to bring forth the fighter who could do what leonard could not-Julian Jackson.

Like i said before, Leonard was a good fighter and fought valiantly but he's no Julian Jackson.Leonard was in his prime at WW about 10 years prior to this fight at JMW. That's probably a bigger reason why we don't take it quite so seriously. Similar to how you don't take any of Camacho's brutal, embarassing ass-whoopings seriously, which seemed to be the outcome of most of his important fights in the 90's.

brownpimp88

05-17-2008, 03:28 PM

Leonard was in his prime at WW about 10 years prior to this fight at JMW. That's probably a bigger reason why we don't take it quite so seriously. Similar to how you don't take any of Camacho's brutal, embarassing ass-whoopings seriously, which seemed to be the outcome of most of his important fights in the 90's. Yeah Camacho was fighting guys twice his size, there's a difference.

That's why Ray Leonard will never be no ray robinson, he shouldnt call himself sugar at all. Robinson beat up guys like fullmer and basilio when he was 37-38 and had over 200 fights. A 34 year old leonard gets beaten soundly by someone of the same size and quits like usual.

Sweet Pea

05-17-2008, 03:36 PM

Yeah Camacho was fighting guys twice his size, there's a difference.

That's why Ray Leonard will never be no ray robinson, he shouldnt call himself sugar at all. Robinson beat up guys like fullmer and basilio when he was 37-38 and had over 200 fights. A 34 year old leonard gets beaten soundly by someone of the same size and quits like usual.Camacho was beaten like a red-headed step-child by Chavez, someonw his own size, and didn't even put up a fight. I think he had the fight confused with a track meet, as he did nothing but run around the ring trying to delay the inevitable beating that was to come.

Leonard was clearly done as an elite fighter by that time in his career, and even before, and you morons are trying to act as if it was Leonard at his best. And he quit? He lasted the full 12. If anything, that shows you Norris's lack of finishing ability that he wasn't able to finish an aging fighter who he'd already hurt in the fight early.

brownpimp88

05-17-2008, 03:41 PM

Camacho was beaten like a red-headed step-child by Chavez, someonw his own size, and didn't even put up a fight. I think he had the fight confused with a track meet, as he did nothing but run around the ring trying to delay the inevitable beating that was to come.

Leonard was clearly done as an elite fighter by that time in his career, and even before, and you morons are trying to act as if it was Leonard at his best. And he quit? He lasted the full 12. If anything, that shows you Norris's lack of finishing ability that he wasn't able to finish an aging fighter who he'd already hurt in the fight early.
I meant he quit boxing, if he was anything like the real sugar, he would have rematched terry norris and find a way to win, like robinson did his whole illustrious career. There is a reason why he's not in his league.

Camacho was at the same stage in his career in 1992 that Leonard was in 1991, so why is it ok to excuse leonard but not camacho?

People try and act like Camacho is a big joke. If anyone actually followed the history of boxing during his run, which was 1983-1990, they would know that he was heavily feared. No one wanted to come out and publicly challenge him. People try and act like rosario was so robbed, Hector outboxed him for practically 70% of the fight.

Sweet Pea

05-17-2008, 03:49 PM

Camacho was at the same stage in his career in 1992 that Leonard was in 1991, so why is it ok to excuse leonard but not camacho?Camacho had began his career 9 years previously, Leonard had began his career 14 years previously I believe, with inactive spells in between, including a near two year inactive spell prior to fighting Norris. There's a pretty clear difference here, don't even try to respond.

People try and act like Camacho is a big joke. If anyone actually followed the history of boxing during his run, which was 1983-1990, they would know that he was heavily feared. No one wanted to come out and publicly challenge him. People try and act like rosario was so robbed, Hector outboxed him for practically 70% of the fight.
Hector outboxed him for the majority, but every time he got caught with a punch he'd run for next couple rounds. Seriously, how the hell do you back a fighter like that so strongly and then try to run down Leonard?

So why did his reign end so early? Too many wars? Or are you just excusing his loss to a guy like Haugen, and his humiliating beating at the hands of Chavez? And you have the nerve to defend this but expect us to believe that Leonard was in his prime against Norris in 91? That's about the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

brownpimp88

05-17-2008, 03:56 PM

Camacho had began his career 9 years previously, Leonard had began his career 14 years previously I believe, with inactive spells in between, including a near two year inactive spell prior to fighting Norris. There's a pretty clear difference here, don't even try to respond.

Hector outboxed him for the majority, but every time he got caught with a punch he'd run for next couple rounds. Seriously, how the hell do you back a fighter like that so strongly and then try to run down Leonard?

So why did his reign end so early? Too many wars? Or are you just excusing his loss to a guy like Haugen, and his humiliating beating at the hands of Chavez? And you have the nerve to defend this but expect us to believe that Leonard was in his prime against Norris in 91? That's about the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
2 years or 14 months? Alot of boxers take 1 year and 2 months off. By the way Camacho was a 12 year pro by the time the fight started and he fought alot more.

He lost to Haugen cuz he didnt touch his gloves, like seriously did you even watch the fight?

I said Leonard was at the same stage of his career that Camacho was and I said Norris would have been a bad matchup for Leonard even if he was at his peak, you seriously need to learn how to read. Either you can't read or you mix the posts between me and redrooster.

JohnThomas1

05-17-2008, 09:56 PM

I bet you can't wait for the upcoming Nelson - Fenech III Pimp. One of them is bound to go up or down your list depending on the result i bet.

sweet_scientist

05-17-2008, 10:09 PM

I meant he quit boxing, if he was anything like the real sugar, he would have rematched terry norris and find a way to win, like robinson did his whole illustrious career. There is a reason why he's not in his league.
So he's not as good as Sugar Ray Robinson, as if that's anything to be ashamed of.

If anyone should stop using a moniker its Norris, because he's not in Terrible Terry McGovern's league. McGovern didn't hang around in a junior division taking out shot fighters, he went up in weight and fought (and Ko'ed) bigger fighters that were in their primes. Can you imagine Norris with his chin fighting middleweights or supermiddles? He'd be getting Ko'ed by glancing blows from journeymen.

Camacho was at the same stage in his career in 1992 that Leonard was in 1991, so why is it ok to excuse leonard but not camacho?
What stage in his career was he when the majority of the boxing press thought he lost to Edwin Rosario? What stage was he at when he lost to Greg Haugen? What stage was he at when he ran and nearly lost to a completely shot Ray Mancini?

People try and act like Camacho is a big joke. If anyone actually followed the history of boxing during his run, which was 1983-1990, they would know that he was heavily feared. No one wanted to come out and publicly challenge him. People try and act like rosario was so robbed, Hector outboxed him for practically 70% of the fight.
Yeah and practically 70% of the boxing press thought Hector lost.

AND LMFAO@people fearing Camacho. If he stayed at lightweight instead of moving up to fight shot fighters like Howard Davis and Ray Mancini he would have had his ass handed to him by Whitaker and Chavez.

Robbi

05-17-2008, 10:17 PM

Old Hector and Norris were the greatest ones. Nobody quite done it like those guys.

redrooster

05-17-2008, 10:41 PM

Camacho was beaten like a red-headed step-child by Chavez, someonw his own size, and didn't even put up a fight. I think he had the fight confused with a track meet, as he did nothing but run around the ring trying to delay the inevitable beating that was to come.

Leonard was clearly done as an elite fighter by that time in his career, and even before, and you morons are trying to act as if it was Leonard at his best. And he quit? He lasted the full 12. If anything, that shows you Norris's lack of finishing ability that he wasn't able to finish an aging fighter who he'd already hurt in the fight early.

Why was leonard finished? He was winning wasn't he? Cpme on and prove it.

Camacho was losing to the likes of greg Haugen while Leonard beat the great marvin Hagler. If anything, Leonard was much improved because he didn't have the problem of ring rust anymore and was at his more comfortable weight.So for the very reasons that leonard overcame in the Hagler fight, the ones that made him the special fighter you say he is, without those same obstacles he should be winning fights that much more impressively and be a dominant fighter as he was in the Duran fight.

If he could overcome ring rust and the weight difference with Hagler how come he can't give Norris a fight and which fight did he Sugar Ray decline on? You act like he was in a tough Saad Muhammud type fight where he took reams of punishment. leonard never took real punishment the way Hagler did so Leonard has no excuses for losing except for the ones I brought up.

You have to have a fight to point to in which Leonard began his decline but there are none and let's face it, the Hagler fight is his best career performance. So stop the play acting and just admit Terry Norris was better than him.

redrooster

05-17-2008, 10:57 PM

Like they say, "the bigger they are, the harder they fall"

brownpimp88

05-17-2008, 11:02 PM

So he's not as good as Sugar Ray Robinson, as if that's anything to be ashamed of.

If anyone should stop using a moniker its Norris, because he's not in Terrible Terry McGovern's league. McGovern didn't hang around in a junior division taking out shot fighters, he went up in weight and fought (and Ko'ed) bigger fighters that were in their primes. Can you imagine Norris with his chin fighting middleweights or supermiddles? He'd be getting Ko'ed by glancing blows from journeymen.

What stage in his career was he when the majority of the boxing press thought he lost to Edwin Rosario? What stage was he at when he lost to Greg Haugen? What stage was he at when he ran and nearly lost to a completely shot Ray Mancini?

Yeah and practically 70% of the boxing press thought Hector lost.

AND LMFAO@people fearing Camacho. If he stayed at lightweight instead of moving up to fight shot fighters like Howard Davis and Ray Mancini he would have had his ass handed to him by Whitaker and Chavez.
Camacho wanted to unify the belts against bramble and paul, they wouldnt fight him. Bobby Chacon vacated his belt because he wouldnt fight camacho. Yeah Camacho was considered a big threat in his era, i know people that grew up watching it during that era and I have a crapload of magazines. You cant just read up and assume no one was scared of Camacho.

He didnt legitimately lose to Haugen at all, it was a stupid point deduction. I could care less if you think 70% of the boxingpress thought Rosario won. The truth is most of the press thought de la hoya beat whitaker, yet you try and convince everyone here that they all think whitaker was robbed.

Robbi

05-17-2008, 11:30 PM

So stop the play acting and just admit Terry Norris was better than him.

You need to lay off the substance abuse.

JohnThomas1

05-17-2008, 11:40 PM

If he could overcome ring rust and the weight difference with Hagler how come he can't give Norris a fight and which fight did he Sugar Ray decline on?

You have to have a fight to point to in which Leonard began his decline but there are none and let's face it, the Hagler fight is his best career performance. So stop the play acting and just admit Terry Norris was better than him.

The Norris fight was 4 years after the Hagler fight you silly featherduster. Are you trying to say Norris beat the same version Hagler did? :lol:

Stewart says Leonard showed he was declined goods in the Lalonde fight, which is again a year and a half after the Hagler fight. He said Leonard was just as shot as Hearns in their second battle.

Good to see the trolling business is still thriving tho. You just love all that Leonard defending and praising don't ya

;)

JohnThomas1

05-17-2008, 11:44 PM

Camacho wanted to unify the belts against bramble and paul, they wouldnt fight him.

Proof please, and i don't mean Wiki.

sweet_scientist

05-17-2008, 11:56 PM

Camacho wanted to unify the belts against bramble and paul, they wouldnt fight him. Bobby Chacon vacated his belt because he wouldnt fight camacho. Yeah Camacho was considered a big threat in his era, i know people that grew up watching it during that era and I have a crapload of magazines. You cant just read up and assume no one was scared of Camacho.
If he wanted it bad enough he could have become a mandatory for their belts. Bottom line though is that he should have fought at least one of Chavez, Taylor or Whitaker before 1990. I don't think either of those three were scared of him whatsoever, and if Camacho ever did face Whitaker and Chavez he would have been dealt with. Probably would have been dealt with by Taylor as well.

He didnt legitimately lose to Haugen at all, it was a stupid point deduction.
Yeah, as if the point deduction was the only thing going for Haugen in the fight. Personally, I had it scored a draw, but the fact that he came so close to losing to Haugen is embarassing in and of itself and I have no problem with anyone scoring that for Haugen anyway. Haugen did not win a minute of any round against Whitaker and if Camacho fought Whitaker in 89-90 it would have been the same. A couple of years earlier and a green Pea would have merely 8-4'ed him.

I could care less if you think 70% of the boxingpress thought Rosario won.
I thought it was already pretty apparent that you could care less about facts, so forgive me for not being surprised.

The truth is most of the press thought de la hoya beat whitaker, yet you try and convince everyone here that they all think whitaker was robbed.
:lol: You always have to try and drop a reference to Whitaker to wind me up and the sad thing is you always get countered and then STFU.

Please state your sources for thinking that most of the press thought DLH beat Whitaker.

I know this much about the press from that fight:

A narrow majority of ringsiders had Whitaker winning (words of Jim Lampley)

And from other sources I know of:

Ring magazine, ABC, ESPN and CNN had Whitaker ahead.

Boxing 97 had DLH ahead (though Ron Borges in Boxing 98 said he thought Whitaker had the edge) and Boxing News had DLH ahead

Other than that I know Mike Katz had Whitaker taking the decision, and called DLH "Chicken DLH" after he ran from a Whitaker rematch and fought a slew of shot and bum fighters instead.

sweet_scientist

05-18-2008, 12:19 AM

Proof please, and i don't mean Wiki.

:lol:

Heck, I'd even take Wiki proof from the dipshit that the majority of the press felt DLH beat Whitaker.

brownpimp88

05-18-2008, 12:24 AM

If he wanted it bad enough he could have become a mandatory for their belts. Bottom line though is that he should have fought at least one of Chavez, Taylor or Whitaker before 1990. I don't think either of those three were scared of him whatsoever, and if Camacho ever did face Whitaker and Chavez he would have been dealt with. Probably would have been dealt with by Taylor as well.

Yeah, as if the point deduction was the only thing going for Haugen in the fight. Personally, I had it scored a draw, but the fact that he came so close to losing to Haugen is embarassing in and of itself and I have no problem with anyone scoring that for Haugen anyway. Haugen did not win a minute of any round against Whitaker and if Camacho fought Whitaker in 89-90 it would have been the same. A couple of years earlier and a green Pea would have merely 8-4'ed him.

I thought it was already pretty apparent that you could care less about facts, so forgive me for not being surprised.

:lol: You always have to try and drop a reference to Whitaker to wind me up and the sad thing is you always get countered and then STFU.

Please state your sources for thinking that most of the press thought DLH beat Whitaker.

I know this much about the press from that fight:

A narrow majority of ringsiders had Whitaker winning (words of Jim Lampley)

And from other sources I know of:

Ring magazine, ABC, ESPN and CNN had Whitaker ahead.

Boxing 97 had DLH ahead (though Ron Borges in Boxing 98 said he thought Whitaker had the edge) and Boxing News had DLH ahead

Other than that I know Mike Katz had Whitaker taking the decision, and called DLH "Chicken DLH" after he ran from a Whitaker rematch and fought a slew of shot and bum fighters instead.
Why would he have to become a mandatory for thier belts, he was ranked higher by ring magazine.

Why is that he should of fought Chavez? He was a bigger star than chavez at that point by a wide margin, Chavez never bothered to chase him anytime between 1985-1989. Stop trying to sway shit, Chavez was not the bigger star from the media prespective until he fought Taylor.

JohnThomas1

05-18-2008, 12:31 AM

:lol:

Heck, I'd even take Wiki proof from the dipshit that the majority of the press felt DLH beat Whitaker.

:lol:

His statement mirrors Wiki's (where he likely got it :lol: ) perfectly, but Wiki contradicts itself elsewhere on the matter anyways :lol:

Given Brambles brilliant performance against the talented and elusive Crawley one can really believe he was afraid of the light hitting Camacho :roll:

Many experts thought Bramble was the best 135 in the world after the Crawley fight, and were openly tipping him vs Camacho. Given Bramble was high on confidence and Camacho had no big guns it would have been a very very interesting bout. There's a small chance it may have been over 15 too. Bramble would have been a damn awkward fight for Camacho at his finest.

JohnThomas1

05-18-2008, 12:36 AM

Stop trying to sway shit, Chavez was not the bigger star from the media prespective until he fought Taylor.

That's pretty arguable, Camacho's star had waned considerably way before Chavez beat Taylor. Wouldn't put me life on it i tell ya.

brownpimp88

05-18-2008, 12:39 AM

That's pretty arguable, Camacho's star had waned considerably way before Chavez beat Taylor. Wouldn't put me life on it i tell ya. Maybe around 1988 when Camacho started to become inactive, but from 84-87 he was an hbo golden boy while chavez was only known by mexicans.

I still find it funny that Chavez never even mentioned Hector's name until he saw him struggle with Haugen. For 6 straight years, both were undefeated and within 1 division of each other and Chavez never called him out, quite funny if you ask me.

I also find it funny that Chacon vacates his belt to avoid macho, which is the reason limon and camacho fought. Then decides to take on Mancini and get soundly thrashed.

Camacho would have always dealt with the Chacon's of the world and Bobby knew it.

Longhhorn71

05-18-2008, 12:40 AM

Leoanard said after after the Norris fight he thought he was
fighting a younger version of himself.

JohnThomas1

05-18-2008, 12:40 AM

Still waiting for the Paul, Camacho, Bramble proof Pimp.

brownpimp88

05-18-2008, 12:45 AM

Still waiting for the Paul, Camacho, Bramble proof Pimp.
He called them out after the Ramirez fight, all of them. They never stepped up to the plate dawg. He was considered the p4p fighter and they didnt want him.

Not sure about his exact quote but he said he wants pryor, bramble, jimmy paul, larry holmes and all thos ******s. He also said he whitaker would get his.

What was he supposed to do, call out bramble and jimmy paul individually and trash them fro no reason, he made the open invitiation and they didn't accept the offer.

JohnThomas1

05-18-2008, 12:46 AM

Maybe around 1988 when Camacho started to become inactive, but from 84-87 he was an hbo golden boy while chavez was only known by mexicans.

You stated the Taylor fight as your cut off, which was 1990 not 1988. And it was late 87 when Chavez dominated Rosario to universal praise, so you are slightly out there as well, again. Really tho even before that he had beaten the likes of Mayweather, Lockridge and LaPorte all in the USA. Tho i don't live there to confirm, i find it very very hard to believe he was "only known by Mexicans", that's for sure. Your facts are about as tight as Paris Hilton in this thread.

brownpimp88

05-18-2008, 12:48 AM

You stated the Taylor fight as your cut off, which was 1990 not 1988. And it was late 87 when Chavez dominated Rosario to universal praise, so you are slightly out there as well, again. Really tho even before that he had beaten the likes of Mayweather, Lockridge and LaPorte all in the USA. Tho i don't live there to confirm, i find it very very hard to believe he was "only known by Mexicans", that's for sure. Your facts are about as tight as Paris Hilton in this thread. He didnt become JC Superstar until he beat Taylor though, thats when he had leverage his way. Camacho was undefeated for 6 consecutive years prior to the Haugen fight and Chavez never ever mentioned his name.

JohnThomas1

05-18-2008, 12:50 AM

He called them out after the Ramirez fight, all of them. They never stepped up to the plate dawg. He was considered the p4p fighter and they didnt want him.

Not sure about his exact quote but he said he wants pryor, bramble, jimmy paul, larry holmes and all thos ******s. He also said he whitaker would get his.

Ok, so Holmes ducked him too then considering he didn't take him on? Camacho, after having his world rocked by Rosario said he would never fight him again even if the sanctioning body said to dawg.

If you have the vast array of mags from the era you claim and actually read them you would know Bramble - Camacho was slated for after the Rosario - Bramble fight. This fight was considered Bramble's "tune up" for Camacho :lol:

Funny thing Macho didn't then fight Rosario, hey? ;)

What was he supposed to do, call out bramble and jimmy paul individually and trash them fro no reason, he made the open invitiation and they didn't accept the offer.

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

JohnThomas1

05-18-2008, 12:52 AM

He didnt become JC Superstar until he beat Taylor though, thats when he had leverage his way. Camacho was undefeated for 6 consecutive years prior to the Haugen fight and Chavez never ever mentioned his name.

So now you claim Chavez didn't "mention" Camacho in that full 6 years? That's yet another enormous claim that one.

sweet_scientist

05-18-2008, 12:55 AM

:lol:

His statement mirrors Wiki's (where he likely got it :lol: ) perfectly, but Wiki contradicts itself elsewhere on the matter anyways :lol:

Given Brambles brilliant performance against the talented and elusive Crawley one can really believe he was afraid of the light hitting Camacho :roll:

Many experts thought Bramble was the best 135 in the world after the Crawley fight, and were openly tipping him vs Camacho. Given Bramble was high on confidence and Camacho had no big guns it would have been a very very interesting bout. There's a small chance it may have been over 15 too. Bramble would have been a damn awkward fight for Camacho at his finest.
You know what, I would have loved to have seen Hector Camacho against the likes of Roger Mayweather and Freddie Pendleton too. I think they, along with Bramble could have all taken it to Camacho and I would not be certain as to Camacho coming out on top in all three of those fights, especially given his performances against Rosario and even against Boza Edwards, where he seemed to be rather intimidated by Boza's pressure. Boza simply didn't have the handspeed to catch Camacho often enough, but he still won 3 or 4 rounds imo in that one. Bramble, Mayweather and Pendleton all had better speed and I think the chin checks they would have provided Hector could have been telling.

brownpimp88

05-18-2008, 12:58 AM

brownpimp88

05-18-2008, 01:01 AM

You know what, I would have loved to have seen Hector Camacho against the likes of Roger Mayweather and Freddie Pendleton too. I think they, along with Bramble could have all taken it to Camacho and I would not be certain as to Camacho coming out on top in all three of those fights, especially given his performances against Rosario and even against Boza Edwards, where he seemed to be rather intimidated by Boza's pressure. Boza simply didn't have the handspeed to catch Camacho often enough, but he still won 3 or 4 rounds imo in that one. Bramble, Mayweather and Pendleton all had better speed and I think the chin checks they would have provided Hector could have been telling.
What are you claiming, that Hector has a glass jaw now. Anyone with some sort of power will make him run on his bike? You talk alot of shit about hector, the funny thing is if you met him in real life, you would probably shake his hands, ask for his atuograph and annoy him to death.

redrooster

05-18-2008, 01:04 AM

Ok, so Holmes ducked him too then considering he didn't take him on? Camacho, after having his world rocked by Rosario said he would never fight him again even if the sanctioning body said to dawg.

If you have the vast array of mags from the era you claim and actually read them you would know Bramble - Camacho was slated for after the Rosario - Bramble fight. This fight was considered Bramble's "tune up" for Camacho :lol:

Funny thing Macho didn't then fight Rosario, hey? ;)

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

Give it up already. Rosario lost. He won a couple rounds big but it wasn't enough to make up for all the other rounds he lost. Likewise he lost to Howard Davis but because he won the last round with a knockdown in the last ten seconds and they were in Puerto Rico, the judges gave him the fight. Before that he was outsped by Howard.

I will attest to the legitmacy Brownpimp's claims. Most everyone including Chavez avoided Hector in the mid 80's when it was clearly Macho time. Chavez had a lot of time to take his head out of the sand and go for the gold. Instead he went for the bronze taking the path of least resistance. Same goes for the glass jawed Mayweather and over the hill Bobby Chacon. Even if Bobby were in his prime he'd still lose. Arroyo, don't make me laugh. Jimmy Paul I liked personally but I don't think he would have made it.

None of these fighters were cut out for a prime time fight with Hector. He was nearly untouchable and a lefthander on top of that.

sweet_scientist

05-18-2008, 01:05 AM

Ok, the Larry Holmes part was obviously a joke.

Funny how you dont mention Chacon, maybe cuz its true after all.

I thought it was quite funny him calling out Whitaker after he had been a pro for all of one year. I thought it was funny how he was getting his ass handed to him by an amatuer Whitaker too during the halcyon days of his career.

I also find it funny that Whitaker apparently met Camacho in person at Vegas and asked him to fight him and Camacho wasn't interested.

Can't remember who told me that last one but I have heard it. I'll put it in the ReadyRedrooser basket together with his claim that he read in some boxing magazine now forgotten that Camacho was beating the shit out of Whitaker and how it had to be stopped by Whitaker's people - as unconfirmed.

:good

redrooster

05-18-2008, 01:08 AM

You know what, I would have loved to have seen Hector Camacho against the likes of Roger Mayweather and Freddie Pendleton too. I think they, along with Bramble could have all taken it to Camacho and I would not be certain as to Camacho coming out on top in all three of those fights, especially given his performances against Rosario and even against Boza Edwards, where he seemed to be rather intimidated by Boza's pressure. Boza simply didn't have the handspeed to catch Camacho often enough, but he still won 3 or 4 rounds imo in that one. Bramble, Mayweather and Pendleton all had better speed and I think the chin checks they would have provided Hector could have been telling.

i could understand your point if Hector came out cautious in the Edwards fight but that's not how it happened. What was the first thing Hector did to Boza? he came out and in a flash he decked him with fusilade to fast for the eye to follow. So that proves he wasn't cautious. Why he went so defensive after that is a mystery to me. Hector is just a basket case sometimes but it was not out of fear that he went defnsive.

sweet_scientist

05-18-2008, 01:08 AM

What are you claiming, that Hector has a glass jaw now. Anyone with some sort of power will make him run on his bike? You talk alot of shit about hector, the funny thing is if you met him in real life, you would probably shake his hands, ask for his atuograph and annoy him to death.

I'm claiming that if the Rosario fight is any evidence to go by, if Camacho got hit hard enough, he lost all interest in trying to fight and went into survival mode. What have you got to counter that? Tell me about some fights where he got nailed and then fought back ferociously.

brownpimp88

05-18-2008, 01:09 AM

redrooster

05-18-2008, 01:10 AM

I thought it was quite funny him calling out Whitaker after he had been a pro for all of one year. I thought it was funny how he was getting his ass handed to him by an amatuer Whitaker too during the halcyon days of his career.

I also find it funny that Whitaker apparently met Camacho in person at Vegas and asked him to fight him and Camacho wasn't interested.

Can't remember who told me that last one but I have heard it. I'll put it in the ReadyRedrooser basket together with his claim that he read in some boxing magazine now forgotten that Camacho was beating the shit out of Whitaker and how it had to be stopped by Whitaker's people - as unconfirmed.

:good

I actually read the opposite that in summer 1985 Hector abused Pernell to the point that his corner stepped in to save Pernell. how do you explain that?

This pretty much proves to me that even so great a fighter as Pernell would have been helpless against the greased lightning attack of Camacho. And Hector was also a master of dirty fighting.

sweet_scientist

05-18-2008, 01:11 AM

i could understand your point if Hector came out cautious in the Edwards fight but that's not how it happened. What was the first thing Hector did to Boza? he came out and in a flash he decked him with fusilade to fast for the eye to follow. So that proves he wasn't cautious. Why he went so defensive after that is a mystery to me. Hector is just a basket case sometimes but it was not out of fear that he went defnsive.

Maybe it had something to do with Boza's pressure. I mean, even in the Ramirez fight, where he totally outclassed Ramirez, he still turned the fight into a bit of a stinker in the second half by simply moving out of harms way at every opportunity and throwing out the odd jab. I don't think Hector likes standing his ground and fighting on the inside. He liked to avoid punishment and win safely if he could.

brownpimp88

05-18-2008, 01:11 AM

I'm claiming that if the Rosario fight is any evidence to go by, if Camacho got hit hard enough, he lost all interest in trying to fight and went into survival mode. What have you got to counter that? Tell me about some fights where he got nailed and then fought back ferociously.
Yeah but just because they have power it doesnt mean they will connect. Another thing, its unlikely that they will stop Camacho, so uh yeah, they would have to win more than 6 rounds, which isnt going to happen when pendleton, bramble and paull all get soundly outboxed.

Ramirez was voted as one of the best punchers of all time by ring magazine, when did he connect on hector?

brownpimp88

05-18-2008, 01:12 AM

Maybe it had something to do with Boza's pressure. I mean, even in the Ramirez fight, where he totally outclassed Ramirez, he still turned the fight into a bit of a stinker in the second half by simply moving out of harms way at every opportunity and throwing out the odd jab. I don't think Hector likes standing his ground and fighting on the inside. He liked to avoid punishment and win safely if he could.
Hector fought that way cuz he didnt want to risk getting kod like Rosario did.

JohnThomas1

05-18-2008, 01:18 AM

Ok, the Larry Holmes part was obviously a joke.

Funny how you dont mention Chacon, maybe cuz its true after all.

I'm trying to remember about Chacon to be honest. Actually i think ya wrong, again. Chacon dropped his title and moved up to fight Mancini for decent money and a shot at a title in yet another division. Camacho had no great victory whatsoever at this stage, tho he was very hot property. I highly doubt Chacon was worried about Camacho to the extent of going up, lets be honest. At this stage he would have beat Bobby pretty comfortably tho.

JohnThomas1

05-18-2008, 01:19 AM

You talk alot of shit about hector, the funny thing is if you met him in real life, you would probably shake his hands, ask for his atuograph and annoy him to death.

And what would you do meeting SRL, bounce a couple of stiff one two's off his chin? :bbb

brownpimp88

05-18-2008, 01:19 AM

I'm trying to remember about Chacon to be honest. Actually i think ya wrong, again. Chacon dropped his title and moved up to fight Mancini for decent money and a shot at a title in yet another division. Camacho had no great victory whatsoever at this stage, tho he was very hot property. I highly doubt Chacon was worried about Camacho to the extent of going up, lets be honest. At this stage he would have beat Bobby pretty comfortably tho.
You must have forgot cuz Camacho trashed him for not fighting him, he kept calling him a coward, pussy, no balls pansy, etc.

brownpimp88

05-18-2008, 01:20 AM

And what would you do meeting SRL, bounce a couple of stiff one two's off his chin? :bbb
I like Leonard, i just said Norris would be a bad matchup, god.

JohnThomas1

05-18-2008, 01:22 AM

What have you got to counter that? Tell me about some fights where he got nailed and then fought back ferociously.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Hell, tell me when he fought ferociously full stop :lol:

JohnThomas1

05-18-2008, 01:23 AM

I actually read the opposite that in summer 1985 Hector abused Pernell to the point that his corner stepped in to save Pernell. how do you explain that?

Magazine title, year and month please i might well have it :good

JohnThomas1

05-18-2008, 01:25 AM

You must have forgot cuz Camacho trashed him for not fighting him, he kept calling him a coward, pussy, no balls pansy, etc.

That's because Hector was a big noting trash talking wannabe at the time. He also knew Chacon was so far past his used by date it wasn't funny.

brownpimp88

05-18-2008, 01:25 AM

That's because Hector was a big noting trash talking wannabe at the time. He also knew Chacon was so far past his used by date it wasn't funny.
Chacon was champ, you fight who's the champion.

sweet_scientist

05-18-2008, 01:25 AM

I actually read the opposite that in summer 1985 Hector abused Pernell to the point that his corner stepped in to save Pernell. how do you explain that?

This pretty much proves to me that even so great a fighter as Pernell would have been helpless against the greased lightning attack of Camacho. And Hector was also a master of dirty fighting.

Like I said in my post that you responded to Red, I consider it unconformed until I see a source.

brownpimp88

05-18-2008, 01:27 AM

The real bobby chacon didnt accept trash talk from anybody, he would have fought hector cuz of that, but then i dont blame him, it would have been worse than the boza fight. I dont think Chacon wanted to see his face get turned into burger meat.

sweet_scientist

05-18-2008, 01:28 AM

Yeah but just because they have power it doesnt mean they will connect. Another thing, its unlikely that they will stop Camacho, so uh yeah, they would have to win more than 6 rounds, which isnt going to happen when pendleton, bramble and paull all get soundly outboxed.

Ramirez was voted as one of the best punchers of all time by ring magazine, when did he connect on hector?
Ramirez didn't have speed of punch, just heavy hands. Pendleton and Mayweather were both quicker than Ramirez. If Pendleton and Mayweather could find Pernell's chin, I'm positive they'd find Camacho's. And once they do, and once Camacho runs and holds, he could drop a decision, just like I and the majority of scribes felt Camacho did to Rosario :good

JohnThomas1

05-18-2008, 01:28 AM

Chacon was champ, you fight who's the champion.

Chacon wasn't champ, he moved up to fight Mancini for more money and acclaim. How come Camacho wasn't saying the same things to Mayweather? Because Mayweather was young, acclaimed and streaking?

sweet_scientist

05-18-2008, 01:31 AM

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Hell, tell me when he fought ferociously full stop :lol:

Hahaha, touche.

Wait, let me check Wiki:good

brownpimp88

05-18-2008, 01:31 AM

Ramirez didn't have speed of punch, just heavy hands. Pendleton and Mayweather were both quicker than Ramirez. If Pendleton and Mayweather could find Pernell's chin, I'm positive they'd find Camacho's. And once they do, and once Camacho runs and holds, he could drop a decision, just like I and the majority of scribes felt Camacho did to Rosario :good
Mayweather is always vulnerable, even pernell whitaker of all people had the power to hurt him.

Roger is the epitome of glass jaw, his is even worse than terry norris's.

sweet_scientist

05-18-2008, 01:42 AM

Mayweather is always vulnerable, even pernell whitaker of all people had the power to hurt him.

Roger is the epitome of glass jaw, his is even worse than terry norris's.

And? It's not like Camacho had power like the guys who did stop Mayweather to stop him. Camacho would most likely hurt him, but I see Mayweather hurting Camacho too, and then it would become interesting.

My dinner with Conteh

05-18-2008, 01:44 AM

Magazine title, year and month please i might well have it :good

You never subscribed to "Definitely True Gym Tales"? You missed out mate. It came out in 1983-1986. At the back of the last issue it says- 'Coming next week- the middlweight that starched Tim". But it went bust as it had debts that began when the publishers put money into the Holmes-Coetzee fight. Great mag, it's where I read about Banana Sam giving Dempsey a good hiding.

Alas, all the copies are missing now though, rumour has it they were last seen in the sports bag of the captain of the Exxon Valdez...so if they're ever to be retrieved they're at the bottom of the sea in Alaska, full of crude oil. Although there were sightings of a deep sea diver in the area around that time. So he's the only man with the info....hey, wait a minute...surely....not....? :shock:

JohnThomas1

05-18-2008, 02:08 AM

You never subscribed to "Definitely True Gym Tales"? You missed out mate. It came out in 1983-1986. At the back of the last issue it says- 'Coming next week- the middlweight that starched Tim". But it went bust as it had debts that began when the publishers put money into the Holmes-Coetzee fight. Great mag, it's where I read about Banana Sam giving Dempsey a good hiding.

Alas, all the copies are missing now though, rumour has it they were last seen in the sports bag of the captain of the Exxon Valdez...so if they're ever to be retrieved they're at the bottom of the sea in Alaska, full of crude oil. Although there were sightings of a deep sea diver in the area around that time. So he's the only man with the info....hey, wait a minute...surely....not....? :shock:

:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl

sweet_scientist

05-18-2008, 02:41 AM

redrooster

05-18-2008, 03:43 AM

sweet_scientist

05-18-2008, 04:34 AM

:lol: I'm sorry but this is funny.

Yeah, seeing Hector's ballbag implode after he gets hit hard is pretty amusing :good

redrooster

05-18-2008, 09:33 AM

Yeah, seeing Hector's ballbag implode after he gets hit hard is pretty amusing :good

Look, the kind of fighters you're talking about Hector would never even give consideration to. He didn't need this kind of fight; Pendleton, Mayweather-a sort of training bra for boxers like Chavez. Understand this is perfectly acceptable for people like Pernell having to build experience. But Hector was much more advanced at the early stage and could simply skip over the swill and head for the top guy.

Addie

05-18-2008, 10:01 AM

People didn't realize at the time leonard's weaknesses as a fighter which were overlooked in the Hearns fight and resurfaced once again.

Leonard was shot dead by this time.

redrooster

05-18-2008, 11:28 AM

People didn't realize at the time leonard's weaknesses as a fighter which were overlooked in the Hearns fight and resurfaced once again.

Leonard was shot dead by this time.

Too bad you can't prove it. people mistake his shortcomings for being shot, Norris is just that good. Eat your hearts out leonard fans.

enquirer

05-18-2008, 11:55 AM

Keith mullings,julian jackson......

Bigcat

05-18-2008, 01:28 PM

Addie

05-18-2008, 02:05 PM

Too bad you can't prove it. people mistake his shortcomings for being shot, Norris is just that good. Eat your hearts out leonard fans.

Do you think Norris would have defeated Leonard in the early 80s?

bumdujour

05-18-2008, 02:11 PM

Leonard was indeed fave, but Norris wasn't expected to dominate like he did, Ray was like a shadow that night...

I watched Norris v Rosenblatt live at Foxwoods a few years later and couldn't beleive how damaged Terrys brain was, he slurred and dribbled his way through the press conference ..

so sad............

yeah, that slurring was. almost meldrick taylor like.

and to imagine that he fought hard punching laurent bouduani after that and got some more damage in getting pounded out in nine rounds. that was sad.

redrooster

05-18-2008, 03:30 PM

Do you think Norris would have defeated Leonard in the early 80s?

Not only Norris but Jackson, Nunn, McCallum-they all would have knocked Leonard out. Prime Hagler vs. leonard would have been no contest.

As for Norris, leonard wouldn't have been able to deal with his speed. Surealy you noticed the problems he had in the hearns fight.

He didn't have the first clue how to hit a moving target. Even his own trainer was yelling at him for his incompetence. he escaped that time but soon got out of boxing to avoid future losses. he knew the competition was only getting better. I'm sure his handlers were only interested in the one big fight with Hagler but knowing he couldn't handle him they just waited for the right time and made a sudden announcement to come back for hagler. They had it planned this way all along.

So he got what he wanted and gave his fans the big win they thirsted for but I told his fans if he ever enters the ring with a young black man with the kind of reflexes of a Micheal Nunn, leonard will be harpooned that day. I knew it was just a matter of time before he made a mistake in choosing the wrong opponent. The monent he stopped facing those useless relics and started facing some real competition he would be shown a boxing lesson, the kind he always feared since the first retirement.

Enter Terry Norris. One December day in 1990. I happened to catch the late news sportscast. When I heard Ray leonard signed to face Norris, I knew that was it for him, that he was headed for disaster and probably retirement soon after. He never really had the experience to handle this kind of speed because Sugar was sricktly a backtracker. That is he could not take the fight to the opponent if necessary. He was too accustonmed to facing flat footed opponents Dave Green, Wilfred benitez, Howard, Lalonde, washed up Hagler-all immobile slow moving plodders.

So the bottom line is Leonard doesn't do well with this style of fighter. Turns out I was on the money as my patience was finally rewarded.

redrooster

05-18-2008, 03:36 PM

Leonard was indeed fave, but Norris wasn't expected to dominate like he did, Ray was like a shadow that night...

I watched Norris v Rosenblatt live at Foxwoods a few years later and couldn't beleive how damaged Terrys brain was, he slurred and dribbled his way through the press conference ..

so sad............

sadly, this happens with a lot of legends. Muhammud Ali immediately comes to mind. Ken Norton too.

enquirer

05-18-2008, 03:40 PM

He said legend,huh huh huh......Ali and norris in the same sentence,wow........

redrooster

05-18-2008, 03:45 PM

He said legend,huh huh huh......Ali and norris in the same sentence,wow........

Why shouldn't Terry be given the chance to make a name for himself. ALi was gone and the sport was in desperate need of his replacment. Norris with his speed and talent floated and stung leonard hard enough to prove he was just the man to fit the needs of the boxing establishment-the new Ali until Roy Jones came along.

Thread Stealer

05-18-2008, 04:03 PM

KO Magazine (not The Ring) called this 1991's Upset of the Year.

Strange, considering the fact that 3 months later in May, Michael Nunn was a huge favorite and lost to James Toney.

Addie

05-18-2008, 04:12 PM

Not only Norris but Jackson, Nunn, McCallum-they all would have knocked Leonard out. Prime Hagler vs. leonard would have been no contest.

As for Norris, leonard wouldn't have been able to deal with his speed. Surealy you noticed the problems he had in the hearns fight.

He didn't have the first clue how to hit a moving target. Even his own trainer was yelling at him for his incompetence. he escaped that time but soon got out of boxing to avoid future losses. he knew the competition was only getting better. I'm sure his handlers were only interested in the one big fight with Hagler but knowing he couldn't handle him they just waited for the right time and made a sudden announcement to come back for hagler. They had it planned this way all along.

So he got what he wanted and gave his fans the big win they thirsted for but I told his fans if he ever enters the ring with a young black man with the kind of reflexes of a Micheal Nunn, leonard will be harpooned that day. I knew it was just a matter of time before he made a mistake in choosing the wrong opponent. The monent he stopped facing those useless relics and started facing some real competition he would be shown a boxing lesson, the kind he always feared since the first retirement.

Enter Terry Norris. One December day in 1990. I happened to catch the late news sportscast. When I heard Ray leonard signed to face Norris, I knew that was it for him, that he was headed for disaster and probably retirement soon after. He never really had the experience to handle this kind of speed because Sugar was sricktly a backtracker. That is he could not take the fight to the opponent if necessary. He was too accustonmed to facing flat footed opponents Dave Green, Wilfred benitez, Howard, Lalonde, washed up Hagler-all immobile slow moving plodders.

So the bottom line is Leonard doesn't do well with this style of fighter. Turns out I was on the money as my patience was finally rewarded.

:patsch :patsch :patsch :patsch

redrooster

05-18-2008, 04:13 PM

KO Magazine (not The Ring) called this 1991's Upset of the Year.

Strange, considering the fact that 3 months later in May, Michael Nunn was a huge favorite and lost to James Toney.

Thanks Thread Stealer I wasn't even aware of that. I always knew deep inside that KO had integrity somewhere even if it didn't show most of the time which is more than I can say for many of the posters at ESB. At least they didn't try to play it down like SI written by William Nack

Well there you go people...upset of the year!!

Bigger than James Toney-Micheal Nunn even, which is without doubt one of history's biggest.

sweet_scientist

05-18-2008, 05:06 PM

Look, the kind of fighters you're talking about Hector would never even give consideration to. He didn't need this kind of fight; Pendleton, Mayweather-a sort of training bra for boxers like Chavez. Understand this is perfectly acceptable for people like Pernell having to build experience. But Hector was much more advanced at the early stage and could simply skip over the swill and head for the top guy.
Well I suppose he didn't need to fight boxers like Edwin Rosario either. After all, he had lost to Ramirez (twice imo) and Hector had already toyed with him. You also think he lost to Howard Davis. And yet most of the boxing press thought Rosario beat Hector.

I don't see Mayweather or Pendleton having any lesser skills than Rosario and I think their power is up there with his too. Could have been interesting, no matter what Camacho's standing was.

Camacho certainly didn't prove he was above the Rosario's of the world in his fight with Edwin.

Robbi

05-18-2008, 07:15 PM

Hector was a sight to behold in his prime. The best pure boxer of the last 40 years. Nobody done it like Hector.

bxrfan

05-19-2008, 08:06 PM

I love how Chacon is getting excused here. He was supposed to be a badass that's not scared of anybody and he was the super featherweight champ, yet shits his pants and vacates his belt. Then goes on to fight Ray Mancini?
Mancini was probably the more dangerous fight at that time. Mancini looked like a monster back then. If you look at it from a 1983 perspective, Camacho was just a contender that was on the verge of a title shot. Only the hardcore fans knew him at that point. Mancini was the more dangerous fight, if you base it on Camacho's and Mancini's recent performances at the time.