Historically Where Is Floyd If He Beats The Winner Of Cotto Vs Margarito???

[planetzion]

Thats a pretty fucking well rounded career by anyones stretch....

Ill critique floyd when its needed - Im not a fan boy - but that would be ATG status fo' sure. No questions.

If he beats the winner by KO or beatdown....then he'll walk on water for all time.

Pimp C and G_Fag dont bother responding to this email......you both disgust me :yep

[HauntingTheHoly]

He moves from 1,117th all the way up to 1,037th.

[o_money]

Top 25 on skill and ring accomplishments. I doubt he could crack the top 20 ever because compared to many greats his accomplishments are enough. Although his talent would leave room for debate.

[planetzion]

Top 25 on skill and ring accomplishments. I doubt he could crack the top 20 ever because compared to many greats his accomplishments are enough. Although his talent would leave room for debate.

yeah i get there is a debate between talent and accomplishmnets here

[Maxmomer]

Slightly higher than he is right now.

[IntentionalButt]

2009/10

[eliqueiros]

Getting slapped around by 50 Cent in the back of a limo.

[doomeddisciple]

It would shut a lot of people the hell up - Particulalry if it was convincing KO type of victory.

[jimmie]

Right now I dont have him in the top 30. Honestly considering the losses Margarito has and his speed beathing him would just be ripped apart by the media and it wouldnt be that impressive to me. Cotto winning would be a huge legacy fight and would break Mayweather in my top 30. If he decided to step up and clean out Welterweight causes hes only fucking 31 go out beat DLH in September,Cotto-Margarito winner,Shane Mosley,then retire beating someone like Andre Bero if he becomes a mega star. That would be insane and get him in the top 20 maybe even top 10 but I dont even see him fighting Cotto. The most likely scenario to me is him dropping the fight to DLH in September then trying for a trilogy not getting it then retiring. Or beating DLH then calling out a older Mosley.

[cardstars]

Quite honestly if he goes on to beat Cotto then he his a top 20 atg. People will argue with me over that, but think 20-30 years out and all his accomplishments.....yeh top 20 for CERTAIN

[doomeddisciple]

Quite honestly if he goes on to beat Cotto then he his a top 20 atg. People will argue with me over that, but think 20-30 years out and all his accomplishments.....yeh top 20 for CERTAIN

It would take quite a few old timers to die before the majority of hardcore fans thought he broached the top 20-30 of all time.

That's an elite list.

[codeman99998]

At this point of his career, it also matters how he beats them.

I think the worst thing for his legacy would be a dominant Mayweather-Baldomir type win. History will view Toni or Miguel as simply not fast enough to compete with Mayweather, and it will diminish the win.

If the fight is ANYTHING like the Hatton fight, or even the Chico fight where Floyd proved too fast but he also brutalized his opponent, it will truly help Mayweather's all time standing.

[KO Boxing]

It would take quite a few old timers to die before the majority of hardcore fans thought he broached the top 20-30 of all time.

That's an elite list.
What happens when we become old-timers (the ones that already aren't, of course :D )?

I think HISTORY (how ever many years into the future that may be) will look kindly on Floyd. But that's JMO.

I'd say anywhere between 20-30 is fair. Maybe slightly lower, or slightly higher, depending on your criteria and preference.

[Farmboxer]

Void can't beat the winner of that fight, he will never fight either one of them.

[MattG]

If Floyd fights DLH and then Hatton again as some have suggested, he's not going to get in the top 100. Needs to be more active, if he even gives a shit.

[PaddyD1983]

Interesting question...

Personally, I think Floyd is the best boxer I've seen since DLH and RJJ in mid to late nineties. Not sure where I'd rank them in a list of all time greats as I've never sat down and prepared such a list but wherever RJJ and DLH are, that's where I'm putting Floyd.

To put it in perspective, I'd rank Sweet Pea a fair way ahead of those three.

[ripcity]

top 10

[McGrain]

If Mayweather beats De La Hoya, then Cotto, then retires, he'll probably make it in to my top thirty, top 25. He'd be behind Jones and Whitaker though...

[cardstars]

If Mayweather beats De La Hoya, then Cotto, then retires, he'll probably make it in to my top thirty, top 25. He'd be behind Jones and Whitaker though...

Interesting question that just hit me; where would you have him if he beat DLH but lost a close but UD to Cotto?

[G_RapPBF]

solidyfing himself as arguably the best P4P fighter of the last 20 years.

[41fever]

would b a great accomplishment!

[McGrain]

Interesting question that just hit me; where would you have him if he beat DLH but lost a close but UD to Cotto?


:think


Exposed as being outside of the absolute cream at that weight and losing his "0" would see him dip quite severely...perhaps as low as 40-45. That's assuming he retired after the Cotto fight.

[1lehudson]

It would shut a lot of people the hell up - Particulalry if it was convincing KO type of victory.No...It wouldnt. They would just make excuses and insist that he ducked the one that he didnt fight.

[rusticraver]

It's just not a great era era he's boxing in.. it's a good one, not a great one.

I think he gets starched by at least 30 fighters and probably more. So i'd have him top 40

[robpalmer135]

top 5 of all time.

[PaddyD1983]

top 5 of all time.

Wow!

This got me thinking of who I have ahead of Floyd, so in no particular order, I still have Floyd behind;

Whitaker, Duran, SRR, Hagler, SRL, Ali, Archie Moore, Joe Louis, Carlos Monzon, Tyson, Armstrong, Pep, Aaron Pryor, Julio Cesar Chavez, Greb, Langford.

I'm guessing I've missed a couple, but on the basis of this, Floyd would seemingly head into my top 30 :think

[fitzgeraldz]

He stand in the same place he is right now ... neither of those guys make or break his legacy ... he's secured a spot in the H.O.F and he's secured a spot as one of the best non heavyweights in boxing history and the best fighter in this millenium ...

[Asterion]

I would have him in the Top20 or Top15.

[fitzgeraldz]

In my eyes he's the best fighter ever ...

[igotJUIC3]

its hard to place todays best period because in a lot of eyes they can never do enough to past the already established top ten because they dont have to rivalries to do so....alot of the top ATG's are what they are because of other ATG's...thats a lot of hindsight though...we dont know who is ATG right now for Floyd or even if he had any...another thing is people on here blindly assume todays bests cant handle yesterdays best....i doubt that.....i think the matches will still be competitive like a RJJ vs SRR, a ODL vs Hagler, a PBF vs Duran a Tito vs SRL...you give these matches in their respective weights and primes these are tough matches for anyone to pick but you'll have some who will ouright overlook our bests assests and what they bring because they hold on to that ATG status so strongly...ATG is such a strong word here it almost is immune to losing to anyone of present.

[KO Boxing]

If Floyd fights DLH and then Hatton again as some have suggested, he's not going to get in the top 100. Needs to be more active, if he even gives a shit.
:rofl :rofl :lol: :patsch

I put out the challenge for you to find 50 (which is not even 100) fighters who have accomplished then Floyd.

Floyd's career is at its end. He doesn't need to be more active. There's only ONE thing he needs to do really before he goes. Fight and beat Cotto.

[Pimp C]

Thats a pretty fucking well rounded career by anyones stretch....

Ill critique floyd when its needed - Im not a fan boy - but that would be ATG status fo' sure. No questions.

If he beats the winner by KO or beatdown....then he'll walk on water for all time.

Pimp C and G_Fag dont bother responding to this email......you both disgust me :yep
He's already a top 30 ATG IMO so with win over Cotto he move to top 15 to 20 ATG a win over Margo won't mean as much probably top 25 ATG.

[Thread Stealer]

Top 25-30, I guess.

I need more time to study the histories of all the fighters.

My knowledge of some of the greats in the first half of the 20th century such as Canzoneri, Ross, etc...is rather general.

[G_RapPBF]

Does beating a shot Mitchell, a Nobody Bruseles, a triple-shot Gatti, a Senior citizen Baldomir, an erratic, glass-chinned, unfocused Judah, a blown, flawed and weak Hatton and a past-prime Oscar REALLY qualify you to be an ATG???... Damn! That's a fucking insult to Real ATG's like Ali, Leonard, Robinson, Duran, SRL, Morales, Barrera, Tyson and others. I didn't know the bar was that low.:-(

You're a moron.

Mitchell and Bruseles were warm up fights. Floyd only fought Gatti, because Hatton and Tszyu wanted no part of him. He was calling out De La Hoya AND Mosley at this time and both refused. Baldomir was the undisputed welterweight champ. Judah held the IBF belt and considered the top Welter in the division before his defeat by Baldomir. Then he moved up and beat a 154 lb de la hoya, light middle champion which is just as significant if not moreso then Cotto's when at 147 against Mosley. Hatton was the undisputed king of 140lbs, ranked the 8th best fighter in the world, and if he would have beaten Floyd would have been ranked P4P best.

Add to the fact his excellent competition at the lower weights

Castillo 2
Corrales
Genero Hernandez
Carlos Hernandez
Jesus Chavez

ALL champions, and considered the best in there divisions. Easily ATG status. Nobody in history has won 6 belts in 5 weight classes and remained undefeated. Learn something about boxing before you open that yap of yours.

If Mayweather stays at 130 he beats the shit out of Morales, Barrera and Pac. There is no them with floyd at 130. He did them a favor. And Tyson? Lol. Are you on crack?

[Brian123]

Void can't beat the winner of that fight, he will never fight either one of them.

He won't even fight a top ten WW so I agree!

[thesandman]

You're a moron.

Mitchell and Bruseles were warm up fights. Floyd only fought Gatti, because Hatton and Tszyu wanted no part of him.

Um, no. Thats blatantly untrue about KT.

I think you'll find he fought Gatti because the WBC took the belt off KT and 'gave' it to Gatti.



Baldomir was the undisputed welterweight champ. Judah held the IBF belt and considered the top Welter in the division before his defeat by Baldomir.
About Baldo, true. He was crap, but had a belt.
And he can't be undisputed if Judah still has a belt can he? He was linear.
Judah only had the belt because of Baldo not paying sanctioning fees to all of the orgs if I remember right?

After Judahs' defeat to a journeyman, of course his stock fell!! And he only had a belt because of bullshit.



Then he moved up and beat a 154 lb de la hoya, light middle champion which is just as significant if not moreso then Cotto's when at 147 against Mosley. Hatton was the undisputed king of 140lbs, ranked the 8th best fighter in the world, and if he would have beaten Floyd would have been ranked P4P best.

ODLH was only the champ because of a gimme title fight against everyones favourite B side, Mayorga. Not a bad win for Floyd though. ODLH had the one belt gifted to him.

I would say Mosely was more competitive than ODLH at that time.

Hatton wasn't undisputed at all. Again, you're mixing up your terms. If Floyd had a 140 belt, how could Hatton be undisputed? I think Hatton had 1 belt at the time of the fight? A good win though to be honest.

But how good is Hatton at welter? Ah, about a solid top 10 fighter that's about all.

If Mayweather stays at 130 he beats the shit out of Morales, Barrera and Pac. There is no them with floyd at 130. He did them a favor. And Tyson? Lol. Are you on crack?

This is what pisses me off about Floyd. It's all IF IF IF.

IF he stayed at this weight. IF he had fought this guy, IF he had done this.
Well, he fucking didn't.

Other guys DID.

Floyd is an ATG because of what he's done no doubt. but don't blow up his achievements by calling guys "undisputed" when they aren't. He's gone through the WBC belts, and had some real gimmes in there. Gatti and ODLH are pretty easy title fights IMO at that point in those guys careers.

[KO Boxing]

Um, no. Thats blatantly untrue about KT.

I think you'll find he fought Gatti because the WBC took the belt off KT and 'gave' it to Gatti.
That's also untrue.

Kostya fought Leija in early 2003, when Floyd was still at light-weight.

Due to injuries (which Kostya obviously had no say over), Kostya was out for the next 22 months. Being an UNDISPUTED champion (with three mandatories), you can see why he was stripped (the IBF were even close, but chose to crown Mitchell an interim champion instead).

Kostya was then FORCED to fight Mitchell, or lose the only other belt he had. And while he was not forced to fight Hatton, Hatton was also the IBF mandatory (after beating Michael Stewart in an eliminator).

Furthermore, Kostya was with showtime and Floyd with HBO. Don't know if it's still as hard, but back then, it was very difficult to over-come.

But I think BOTH fighters mentioned a willingness to fight the other. I know you weren't, but ANYONE who says Floyd ducked Kostya simply does not know the situation.

Same applies to anyone who says Kostya ducked Floyd.

[PH|LLA]

Floyd should beat Cotto ASAP and then move on to the next challenge. Just beating Cotto is not adding enough to define Mayweather's career as high as he wants it to be defined.

He should go out there and fight Cotto, Margarito, Mosley, Quintana, Berto, and any other fighter who claims to be the best in the division, and if not then he should move up and start taking over the next division

[BlueApollo]

its hard to place todays best period because in a lot of eyes they can never do enough to past the already established top ten because they dont have to rivalries to do so....alot of the top ATG's are what they are because of other ATG's...thats a lot of hindsight though...we dont know who is ATG right now for Floyd or even if he had any...another thing is people on here blindly assume todays bests cant handle yesterdays best....i doubt that.....i think the matches will still be competitive like a RJJ vs SRR, a ODL vs Hagler, a PBF vs Duran a Tito vs SRL...you give these matches in their respective weights and primes these are tough matches for anyone to pick but you'll have some who will ouright overlook our bests assests and what they bring because they hold on to that ATG status so strongly...ATG is such a strong word here it almost is immune to losing to anyone of present.

After this year's glorified sparring session with Oscar, Floyd will have secured all the money he could possibly need to retire comfortably. At 31, that gives him, conservatively, three years to fight at or near his prime athletic ability. Let's say that in that time, he fought the whopping total of twice a year. That gives him six meaningful fights with which he could enhance his legacy instead of, and really, along with, his bankroll.

He could beat Cotto to open 2009, then defend his undisputed title against the winner of August's Judah - Clottey fight.

He could open 2010 by defending against an up and coming fighter like Berto, much the way Hagler took on and defeated John Mugabi, and then close the year by beating Cotto in a rematch, assuming Miguel won the necessary eliminators to make this fight viable.

And if all this wasn't impressive enough, beating Cotto twice, a possibly refocused Judah, and maybe Clottey or Berto, he could decide to finish his career by taking on the real champ at 154, which by 2011, should be a clarified and more worthwhile weight class. I'm not saying he'll necessarily be the "man", since guys like Angulo, Dzinziruk, even Spinks will still be there, but let's just say Kirkland continues to improve and holds the belts at 154 by then.

If Floyd ended his career by boxing circles around the mauling, prime beast that may very well be a 28 year-old James Kirkland, and if he did this after making five sterling defenses at 147, along with his resume at the lighter weights, there would be no one left in his right mind who wouldn't proudly call themselves a Mayweather fan, and give him him deserved respect in the ATG lists.

Instead, he's spending his time planning mock retirements and calling out NFL running backs over club beefs.

Don't say "politics" or "haters" are holding Floyd back from the highest levels of ATG status. He's getting that done just fine on his own.

[nezy37]

If Margo wins he'll fight Hatton again.

[Cabannero]

Wow!

This got me thinking of who I have ahead of Floyd, so in no particular order, I still have Floyd behind;

Whitaker, Duran, SRR, Hagler, SRL, Ali, Archie Moore, Joe Louis, Carlos Monzon, Tyson, Armstrong, Pep, Aaron Pryor, Julio Cesar Chavez, Greb, Langford.

I'm guessing I've missed a couple, but on the basis of this, Floyd would seemingly head into my top 30
:think

Tyson dominated very weak era and then he lost his biggest fights. He was very carefully managed after the jail - he fought LOOSER of the Holyfield-Bowe III, and still managed to lose. Never saw anyone seriously putting him top-30.

Pryor fought in great era but never tried to make truely great statement in the loaded 147 or 154 division. He didn't want to climb ONE division to fight SRL, preferring to beat all the No Nam Fuks of the world and 1 ATG who started at featherweight :bart

[Cabannero]

And he can't be undisputed if Judah still has a belt can he?
This crap just bobs up on and on.

One's status cannot be disputed just because the xyz's bureaucrats gave the title to the guy he won right now.

[Cabannero]

I thought the author banned you from this thread?? :huh
I'm not banned.

He's already a top 30 ATG IMO so with win over Cotto he move to top 15 to 20 ATG a win over Margo won't mean as much probably top 25 ATG.

[Cabannero]

Does beating a shot Mitchell, a Nobody Bruseles, a triple-shot Gatti, a Senior citizen Baldomir, an erratic, glass-chinned, unfocused Judah, a blown, flawed and weak Hatton and a past-prime Oscar REALLY qualify you to be an ATG???... Damn! That's a fucking insult to Real ATG's like Ali, Leonard, Robinson, Duran, SRL, Morales, Barrera, Tyson and others. I didn't know the bar was that low.:-(
Morales, Barrera, even Tyson? I didn't know the bar was that low.

[Alo2006]

I'll wait until he retires to answer this :yep

[C Money]

Unification at 147 requires Cotto and the Winner of Quintana vs Williams.

Get a me at that point:good

[PaddyD1983]

:think

Tyson dominated very weak era and then he lost his biggest fights. He was very carefully managed after the jail - he fought LOOSER of the Holyfield-Bowe III, and still managed to lose. Never saw anyone seriously putting him top-30.

Pryor fought in great era but never tried to make truely great statement in the loaded 147 or 154 division. He didn't want to climb ONE division to fight SRL, preferring to beat all the No Nam Fuks of the world and 1 ATG who started at featherweight :bart

So you have Floyd ahead of both of them?

[Cabannero]

So you have Floyd ahead of both of them?
You are really smart :yep

[rusticraver]

you could make a case for Floyd not being in the top hundred and i wouldnt argue much.

I could list 100 fighters that are historically greater than Floyd

[Cabannero]

I could list 100 fighters that are historically greater than Floyd
Go ahead.

[rusticraver]

Go ahead.

I'm at work at the moment i'll do it later

[Cabannero]

I'm at work at the moment i'll do it later
Don't forget about your vow in a month.

I'm pretty sure you'll show a bullshit list of old-timers claiming that being a one-time champion like Braddock is better than any modern foghter because there were only 8 weight classes and no versions, so playing fool instead of serious arguments.

[TABBY]

I don't see Floyd Mayweather going down as one of the Top 20 Fighters all time. No chance.

Fighters like Ali, Robinson, Lamotta, Willie Pep and all them other greats would be put ahead of Floyd, even if Mayweather defeats the winner of Cotto Margarito. But he should be remember adn rated in the Top 50 at least I'd say. but it's hard. Talent wise, he is probly one of the most talented pure boxers ever. But then you get people that say throughing combos like De La Hoya in his prime would get the vote over Floyds pot shotting tactics.

[Cabannero]

Fighters like Ali, Robinson, Lamotta, Willie Pep and all them other greats would be put ahead of Floyd
What Lamotta does amongst likes of Ali, Robinson and Pep? Another limited champion with short (almost no) reign.

[rusticraver]

Don't forget about your vow in a month.

I'm pretty sure you'll show a bullshit list of old-timers claiming that being a one-time champion like Braddock is better than any modern foghter because there were only 8 weight classes and no versions, so playing fool instead of serious arguments.

I will endeavour to name 100 better champions than mayweather, using my own criteria.

[Cabannero]

I will endeavour to name 100 better champions than mayweather, using my own criteria.
Of course you can use your own criteria which just won't correspond with the common sense. But your list will be just worthless.

[thesandman]

This crap just bobs up on and on.

One's status cannot be disputed just because the xyz's bureaucrats gave the title to the guy he won right now.

Of course it is. That's why it's disputed.

That's the very meaning of the word. Call it linear, call it 'the man' whatever you want, but it certainly is NOT undisputed.

I may not (and most of the time DON'T) agree with it, but that's the way it is.

Was Hatton EVER the undisputed champ? No, because when he beat KT, the WBA and WBC were held by somebody else. Was he linear and the Ring champ, sure.

But not undisputed. That means holding all 3 belts at once. Like Hopkins did, like Lewis did, like Tszyu did.

Not like floyd at 140, 147 or 154.

[Lance_Uppercut]

Floyd's career status will hedge highly on his work @ 130 & 135. That was where he made himself look like an ATG. His fights @ 140-154 weren't anything impressive and nothing that hasn't been done before. However, adding the Cotto/Margarito winner would give his reign @ 147 a lot more credence.

[Cabannero]

Of course it is. That's why it's disputed.
Of course it's not. That's why people disregard abc and xyz bodies.

Lewis's status didn't become disputed because just because he was stripped by WBA to give the title to a guy he just beaten .

That's the way cradible analysts it have, and so it is.

[BodyShots]

I would put him definitly p4p #1 and top 10 all time.

But...

Too bad it's never going too happen!!!! :blurp

[thesandman]

Of course it's not. That's why people disregard abc and xyz bodies.

Lewis's status didn't become disputed because just because he was stripped by WBA to give the title to a guy he just beaten .

That's the way cradible analysts it have, and so it is.

Of course it did. Otherwise that means Chris Byrd, John Ruiz, Evander Holyfield (during the Ruiz fights), etc were never champions.

Roy Jones was never heavyweight champ, and can't claim to have gone from middleweight to heavyweight champ.

By your reckoning, Wladimir isn't heavy champ right now, and Floyd was never champion at 154. Or 140.

Why isn't Wlad champ you ask? Well, he won Byrds belt, who was never a champion in the first place according to you.

I'm not arguing about what's right, or who's recognised as being the best fighter in the division. Just about using the term "undisputed".

I don't like the shitty way the ABC's do things ever. But to say people disregard them is just plain wrong. All the Floyd fans banging on about how many weight divisions he's been champ in do. Because how many of those was he undisputed in? 1? 2?

Certainly not 5.

[Asterion]

Top15.