Willie Limond was Definately Robbed

[AllyT]

A lot has been said about the ‘Long Count’ but I have finally seen a copy of the British Boxing Board Of Control Rules of Boxing that govern Commonwealth contests.
According to the BBBoC rules governing Commonwealth title contests –

32
Should a Boxer go down to the floor as the result of a legitimate blow, the Timekeeper shall count off the seconds strictly in accordance with his watch. The opponent shall retire immediately to the furthest neutral corner and neither Boxer shall resume boxing until ordered to do so by the Referee.

The referees take on the count or the variable count do not apply here. Key words “Timekeeper”, “strictly” and “watch”.

(33) . . . must regain his feet unassisted within ten seconds. The Referee shall not permit a Boxer to continue boxing, if in his opinion he is able to do so, until the expiration of 8 seconds following the knock down.
1. A Boxer failing to continue with a Contest after the intervals specified above shall not be awarded any points for that round but will have 10 points deducted from his score. His opponent shall receive ten points and be declared the winner.

The boxer must be on his feet in the specified time of ten seconds or he loses the bout. There is no ambiguity here, the referee simply failed to implement the rules as they applied to the bout in question.

[Strike]

Was he fuck robbed. Counts like that happen ALL the time. Look how long it took the ref to start counting Castillo against Hatton. There is usually about 2 seconds as the ref sends the man away and turns to start counting. Khan got up and then chose to take the knee....

He won fair and square, but Limond also showed his chin for what it is and I reckon Arthur would do him, and who knows maybe it will happen.

[hopkinsfan07]

he wasent robbed :hi:

[AllyT]

Was he fuck robbed. Counts like that happen ALL the time. Look how long it took the ref to start counting Castillo against Hatton. There is usually about 2 seconds as the ref sends the man away and turns to start counting. Khan got up and then chose to take the knee....

He won fair and square, but Limond also showed his chin for what it is and I reckon Arthur would do him, and who knows maybe it will happen.

That bout was not under BBBoC rules

[Strike]

That bout was not under BBBoC rules

But you get the point surely?
BBBC rules are not really any different from other boxing rules, squinting through the small print does not make much sense. If Khan had been told he could not go back down and take the knee he would have stayed standing. If the ref had started counting immediately he would still have got up before 10.

I can't believe you think Limond was robbed.

[AllyT]

But you get the point surely?
BBBC rules are not really any different from other boxing rules, squinting through the small print does not make much sense. If Khan had been told he could not go back down and take the knee he would have stayed standing. If the ref had started counting immediately he would still have got up before 10.

I can't believe you think Limond was robbed.


Well believe it.
I absolutely do not see your point, and frankly I think this type of attitude encourages corruption.

This is not the small print, it is a clear definition of how the count should proceed. There is no other part of the rules that refers to the count. That's it!

Firstly it makes clear that it is the timekeeper not the referee that is responsible for keeping the count the referee is only announcing it.

Secondly it makes it very clear that the period is ten seconds according to the timekeepers watch.

Finally it makes clear that this time limit is to be enforced strictly.

When there is so much BS flying around this and other forums as people make up rules to suit their own argument I think it is a bit odd that I should be criticised for being the only person to take the trouble to find out what the rules are.

actually, i recall the dropping after trying to get up also means you are counted out. Or am i thinking of something else?

I think Willie was just very unlucky and Khan was very fortunate. I've seen terrible counts before. The worst was Benn/Mclellan - that should have been stopped in the first round.

This bout included a Mandatory 8 count and you are correct by dropping at 8 Khaqn showed that he was not ready to continue and the bout should have been stopped at that point. The fact that he failed to rise by 10 and subsequently failed to follow the refs instrucrtions only make this error more glaring.

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

[albaneze]

I dont think he was robbed.

[mike464]

If it was the other way around Limond would have been stopped so in that sense it's not really fair.

[Strike]

First of all the count cannot start until the other boxer is in a neutral corner, so that accounts for a delay immediately. Secondly regardless of what it says in regards to a time keeper, NO BBBC fight is EVER governed outside of the refs count.
This is for one very simple reason, the downed fighter is responding to the ref. If the ref reaches 8 and he stands and then the time keeper says I got to ten and so the fight is stopped, it would be bedlam.

A fighter taking a knee will often wait before rising and he directly follows the refs count.

I am not criticising you for starting the thread at all, I just do not agree at all that Limond was robbed.

Here is the knockdown...

6bAZC9Wdk5Y

Now look at which point Limond is sent to the neutral corner, it is around 2-3 seconds after Khan actually hits the canvas with Limond stumbling over him and into the near corner, he is then sent to the neutral corner and the count starts.
Khan takes a knee and then gets up and it is well within 10 seconds. In fact Limond enters the neutral corner at 2:00 and the ref starts counting at just on this point. Khan is rising from his knee at 1:54 and fully stood at 1:53, making the count 7 seconds from the neutral corner necessity.

If we start counting from the moment Khan and Limond tumble down it is exactly 10 seconds, Khan hits the ground at 2:03, but Limond is not even close to being in a neutral corner, and so even by pushing the count to beginning at 2:02 when Limond is in the wrong corner but not stood over Khan the count is still only 9 seconds.

[PrideOfWales]

That ring was small

[Betty Swollocks]

I think he was robbed too, Khan was not upright and ready to fight at the point the ref reaches the count of 10...so there's no argument.

[Strike]

I think he was robbed too, Khan was not upright and ready to fight at the point the ref reaches the count of 10...so there's no argument.

Erm...did you watch the video? He is upright with his gloves up at the count of 7. So there is no argument.

[Betty Swollocks]

Erm...did you watch the video? He is upright with his gloves up at the count of 7. So there is no argument.

and then takes a knee again, and when the ref says ten he is not fully upright or steady. Or am I going crazy here? :huh

[LeadLeftHook]

Well believe it.
I absolutely do not see your point, and frankly I think this type of attitude encourages corruption.

This is not the small print, it is a clear definition of how the count should proceed. There is no other part of the rules that refers to the count. That's it!

Firstly it makes clear that it is the timekeeper not the referee that is responsible for keeping the count the referee is only announcing it.

Secondly it makes it very clear that the period is ten seconds according to the timekeepers watch.

Finally it makes clear that this time limit is to be enforced strictly.

When there is so much BS flying around this and other forums as people make up rules to suit their own argument I think it is a bit odd that I should be criticised for being the only person to take the trouble to find out what the rules are.



This bout included a Mandatory 8 count and you are correct by dropping at 8 Khaqn showed that he was not ready to continue and the bout should have been stopped at that point. The fact that he failed to rise by 10 and subsequently failed to follow the refs instrucrtions only make this error more glaring.

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

Khan got up right away at that point as I undrestand the Referee instructed him that he cannot continue to box until the count of 8 so he thought he had to stay down till 8 and so he took a knee till the ref. reached a count of 8. I dont see where the contraversy is.

[Strike]

and then takes a knee again, and when the ref says ten he is not fully upright or steady. Or am I going crazy here? :huh

You are indeed going crazy. Limond is sent to the corner with the clock at 2:00 and the count starts, Khan stands up at 1:59 as the ref counts, he takes a knee at 1:55 and stands back up at 1:54 and the ref stops counting at 1:52 and waves him forwards.

IF the ref had started counting before Limond was in the neutral corner at 2:01 he would still have been being waved forwards after 9 seconds. And he was on his feet after 7 seconds from that point.

If refs waved fights off when the fighter was up at 7 from hitting the ground and at 6 from the count starting, we would barely have seen any of the comebacks of recent years.

It is simply not a robbery.

[Snorkel]

I don't see what the issue is. He was clearly well enough to fight and followed all the ref's instructions which is all he has to do.

[Vantage_West]

the kid didnt understand if he was alowed to saty on his knee or not.it happend to jerry quarry

[hitman_hatton1]

it was a controversial incident. :yep

the ref was on 8 and khan went back down onto a knee.

instead of continuing the count, the referee just picked him up and told him to get on with it. :roll:

admittedly amir was complaining of a push and the main reason he went back down.

but rules are rules.

the ref controls the bout though, so there isn't much u can do about it. :bart

[AllyT]

The neutral corner argument is bogus. This is only the case in amateur boxing where the referee counts 1 and will not commence counting until the opposing boxer retires to a neutral corner. It has absolutely no relevance to a BBBoC bout.

In this case the referee acted correctly at the beginning, clearing Limond out the way, he then looks to the timekeeper and correctly begins counting at 5.

He bottles it when Khan goes down for the second time and stops counting.

It is interesting to note that the pro Khan lobby on this issue prefer not to refer to the rules at all and seem to consider those who do to be some kind of cheat. This is a ridiculous position, to have such strong opinions without checking the facts.

The count is an exact number, 10 seconds precisely - FACT

The timekeeper is responsible for the count - FACT

The time taken to retreat to a neutral corner does not stop the count - FACT

The time between Khan hitting the canvas and finally rising was greater than 10 seconds – FACT

If you feel the need to counter this argument by all means do but for “fact’s sake” read the rules first.

There is indeed no controversy. The rules are clear. They were not obeyed, pure and simple.

[Strike]

I cannot believe this is still going on despite the video...WATCH the video.

The clock is at 2:02 when he is on the canvas. He is standing after the knee at 1:53. Even ignoring the confusion of the knee, the fact that the ref sent Limond to the other corner and of course ignoring the fact that in EVERY fight the refs count is what the boxer watchs, he is still on his feet within 10 seconds.

How can you possibly watch the video with the time in the corner and argue otherwise?

And Ally mate it was YOU who posted the BBBC rules regarding neutral corners and now you are claiming it only applies in amateur fights. That is not true.

Here is a link to the Queensbury Rules:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

And here is what it states on knockdowns:

"When a boxer is knocked-down, the other boxer must immediately cease fighting and move to the nearest neutral corner of the ring until the referee has either ruled a knockout or called for the fight to continue."

[AllyT]

I cannot believe this is still going on despite the video...WATCH the video.

The clock is at 2:02 when he is on the canvas. He is standing after the knee at 1:53. Even ignoring the confusion of the knee, the fact that the ref sent Limond to the other corner and of course ignoring the fact that in EVERY fight the refs count is what the boxer watchs, he is still on his feet within 10 seconds.

How can you possibly watch the video with the time in the corner and argue otherwise?

And Ally mate it was YOU who posted the BBBC rules regarding neutral corners and now you are claiming it only applies in amateur fights. That is not true.

Here is a link to the Queensbury Rules:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

And here is what it states on knockdowns:

"When a boxer is knocked-down, the other boxer must immediately cease fighting and move to the nearest neutral corner of the ring until the referee has either ruled a knockout or called for the fight to continue."

How can you possibly watch the video with the time in the corner and argue otherwise?

Like this:-

1 Khan is flat out at 2:04

[Only registered and activated users can see links]


2. The Queensbury rules are of historical interest only. They may form the basis of today’s rules but they do not constitute today’s rules.

3. It does not say, either in the historical rules you quote, or in the relevant BBBoC rules, that the count is suspended pending the boxer going to a neutral corner.

4. The boxer does watch the referee who takes his cue from the time keeper, as stated in the rules.

5. The referee takes up the count at 5 on the timekeepers instructions as per the rules.


[Only registered and activated users can see links]


6. The rules state clearly the time period allowed is ten seconds

(33) . . . must regain his feet unassisted within ten seconds.


7. The rules state that this is to be observed strictly32 Should a Boxer go down to the floor as the result of a legitimate blow, the Timekeeper shall count off the seconds strictly in accordance with his watch.


8. The rules state that there is a Mandatory 8 count.

9. (33) . .1. A Boxer failing to continue with a Contest after the intervals specified above shall not be awarded any points for that round but will have 10 points deducted from his score. His opponent shall receive ten points and be declared the winner.


10. and out!

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

I would not have posted under the title unless I was convinced of the truth of it.

Willie Limond was definately robbed - FACT.

[LeadLeftHook]

"5. The referee takes up the count at 5 on the timekeepers instructions as per the rules.


[Only registered and activated users can see links]

6. The rules state clearly the time period allowed is ten seconds

(33) . . . must regain his feet unassisted within ten seconds."


At 1:59, he's up unassisted withing 10 seconds! According to the rules a fighter is ONLY considered "down" when 3.32.1 is satisfied as defined below. If you go by their definition of "down" the fighter in this case cannot be considered down at 1:59.

3.32.1 triggers 3.32 i.e. at this point 3.32.1 does not apply! Which technically means that 3.32 cannot apply at this point i.e. there can be no count without "down" being satisfied and that the count should have been reset when he took the knee again at 1:54!

[AllyT]

"5. The referee takes up the count at 5 on the timekeepers instructions as per the rules.


[Only registered and activated users can see links]

6. The rules state clearly the time period allowed is ten seconds

(33) . . . must regain his feet unassisted within ten seconds."


At 1:59, he's up unassisted withing 10 seconds! According to the rules a fighter is ONLY considered "down" when 3.32.1 is satisfied as defined below. If you go by their definition of "down" the fighter in this case cannot be considered down at 1:59.

3.32.1 triggers 3.32 i.e. at this point 3.32.1 does not apply! Which technically means that 3.32 cannot apply at this point i.e. there can be no count without "down" being satisfied and that the count should have been reset when he took the knee again at 1:54!

If you are claiming this was a 10:7 round it was not. The boxer has to rise and satisfy the referee that he is fit to continue and he must do so within the allotted ten seconds. By going back down within the time he plainly is not fit to continue.

I have seen some wierd and wonderful refereeing decisions over the years but none so bizar as to satisfy your description. This would turn boxing into a disturbing version of musical chairs.

[LeadLeftHook]

If you are claiming this was a 10:7 round it was not. The boxer has to rise and satisfy the referee that he is fit to continue and he must do so within the allotted ten seconds. By going back down within the time he plainly is not fit to continue.

I have seen some wierd and wonderful refereeing decisions over the years but none so bizar as to satisfy your description. This would turn boxing into a disturbing version of musical chairs.

Yes prescisely it should've been a 10-7 round if you go by the rules as stated in [Only registered and activated users can see links] . As per my intrerpretation there is nothing the rules of BBBoC that specifically address the situation we saw on Sat night. Since you are refering to the rules, I am also referring to the same rules except saying that the count should have been reset as per the rules. If a fighter chooses to play musical chair, he stands to lose a point each time and the fight and has nothing to gain.

When you say that going back down within the time of 10 seconds is plainly not fit to continue, it isnt an intrepretation of the rule, its your subjective belief not the referees.


I'm merely stating that even if you go by the rules of BBBoC Limond did not win.

[Strike]

Ally - I think you are being totally disingenuous or blinded by bias. When have you EVER seen a count start at the second the fighter touches the canvas? At that moment Limond was falling over him and they were a tangled mess.

There is ALWAYS a brief delay be it a second or two before the count starts. Or do you think the count starts as the fighter is falling, the moment skin first touches canvas?
It never happens like that....listen lets be honest, Khan only even took the second knee under confusion, he was clearly instructed to and then got straight back up anyway.

Rather than using a free frame of him the split second he is hitting the canvas, look at the video in real time. That free frame does not show the fact that the clock switches to 2:03 immediately, in any reasonable analysis the count starts at 2:03 at the earliest and that is pushing it.

We could go through numerous fights throughout history where the neutral corner is significant, in fact almost all the major fights of the past few years that spring to mind.

If Khan had wanted to cheat he could have spat his gum shield out.

Anyway I wont change your opinion, but no way was Limond robbed, he did well, Khan got up and he didn't manage to finish it.

[Strike]

Watch the video, there is NO WAY the count could start at 2:04, the clock literally goes to 2:03 the moment he hits the ground, just as he lands with Limond tumbling over him it is at 2:04 and goes straight to 2:03.

By a HUGE push you could have the count starting at 2:03, and yet this would be very unlikely in any fight and would be holding this fight to a standard not seen in any other fights of recent memory. And yet even then, Khan is back on his feet from the knee at 1:54......a maximum of 9 seconds.

Thank fuck you people were not in charge of fights like Gatti-Ward.

[DamonD]

I'd rather give Limond credit for a battling effort than this weak-sauce conspiracy "he was robbed!" stuff...cheapens it for me, reminds me of the bad taste about Douglas-Tyson.

Limond had his big chance, there was a load of time left in the round, and he failed. He should've been the stronger in the next round, and he failed there too. Brutally put, he lost the fight because Khan was ultimately better than him, at withstanding his attempts at finishing the fight and fighting back under pressure.

I would certainly like to see Limond fight again, he looked well-schooled and tight both attacking and defending, and I would be upset of rumours about his forced retirement are true. But he was not robbed in this fight.

[AllyT]

Ally - I think you are being totally disingenuous or blinded by bias. When have you EVER seen a count start at the second the fighter touches the canvas? At that moment Limond was falling over him and they were a tangled mess.

There is ALWAYS a brief delay be it a second or two before the count starts. Or do you think the count starts as the fighter is falling, the moment skin first touches canvas?
It never happens like that....listen lets be honest, Khan only even took the second knee under confusion, he was clearly instructed to and then got straight back up anyway.

Rather than using a free frame of him the split second he is hitting the canvas, look at the video in real time. That free frame does not show the fact that the clock switches to 2:03 immediately, in any reasonable analysis the count starts at 2:03 at the earliest and that is pushing it.

We could go through numerous fights throughout history where the neutral corner is significant, in fact almost all the major fights of the past few years that spring to mind.

If Khan had wanted to cheat he could have spat his gum shield out.

Anyway I wont change your opinion, but no way was Limond robbed, he did well, Khan got up and he didn't manage to finish it.

You, may call me “disingenuous”,:nono I may call you “discourteous”.:nono

you may wish consider that, since I

a. currently act as an amateur boxing, judge, and
b. work in the financial industry, my honesty is important to me.

I might also therefore be “litigious”. ;)

The truth is I initially had no strong opinions about the bout. I then heard the complaints regarding the initial knock down. As an amateur boxing judge, I thought that before coming to a conclusion I would like to see a copy of the rules. Therefore I came on to what appears to be one of the busier boxing sites to ask what the rules were. I was rather disappointed to discover that knowledge of the rules among fans appeared to be somewhere between low and non existent. Therefore I looked the rules up myself.

Having read, and I believe understood, the rules I watched the KD again and, honestly, came, honestly, to my current conclusion.

I then presented my views in an open and honest manner. I believe that I have genuinely tried to explore the issue and had any counter argument come my way that was worth further research or consideration, I would happily pursued this. This simply has not happened.

All I read is a collection of ‘factoids’ followed by retrenchments whenever they are exposed as such.

For example tried to imply Khan went down at 2:02. Now that that has been exposed you simply want to move the goalposts.

You keep saying that the referee does not start the count right away, when the rules clearly state that the time keeper commences the count as soon as the boxer hits the canvas. The ref then takes his cue from the timekeeper once the boxers are separated, there is no delay in the actual count. You claim the ref starts the count only when Limond retires to a neutral corner and starts at ‘2’. My second screen cap shows the referee beginning the count; he is clearly indicating ‘5’ after checking with the timekeeper. You claim the count does not start when Khan is flat out is only correct insomuch as it should have started earlier when any part of his body other than the soles of his feet hit the canvas. It also should have carried on past 1:54 until he rose. I have simply shown a ten second window where there can be no debate about his position. He was down both before and after this window, and should therefore have been counted out. If someone with enough knowledge can convince me otherwise, then so be it, but all I seem to be getting is hot air, combined with strongly held views that lack substance.

I accept that it is somewhat academic and Khan is the victor and that is water under the bridge.

I am not accusing Amir Khan of cheating.

I accept that, given the initial KD was not awarded to Limond, Khan came back well and within the confines of that situation deserved his win.

I accept that worse decisions have been made but that does not alter the fact that it was a bad decision.

[Team_Calzaghe]

Well believe it.
I absolutely do not see your point, and frankly I think this type of attitude encourages corruption.

This is not the small print, it is a clear definition of how the count should proceed. There is no other part of the rules that refers to the count. That's it!

Firstly it makes clear that it is the timekeeper not the referee that is responsible for keeping the count the referee is only announcing it.

Secondly it makes it very clear that the period is ten seconds according to the timekeepers watch.

Finally it makes clear that this time limit is to be enforced strictly.

When there is so much BS flying around this and other forums as people make up rules to suit their own argument I think it is a bit odd that I should be criticised for being the only person to take the trouble to find out what the rules are.



This bout included a Mandatory 8 count and you are correct by dropping at 8 Khaqn showed that he was not ready to continue and the bout should have been stopped at that point. The fact that he failed to rise by 10 and subsequently failed to follow the refs instrucrtions only make this error more glaring.

There are none so blind as those who will not see.


AllyT,

I have mixed feeling about this fight, YES the referee was sympathetic to Amir Khan and gave him a chance. If the fight were in Scotland with a Scottish referee then I doubt the referee would have been as sympathetic and Amir Khan would have been counted out.

However, equally Limond's response following the count was poor. Willie had shaken Khan to his boots and Khan was there for the taking but Willie just lacked the determination to find that extra strength and courage to finish him.

I really would like to see a re-match and I'm sure if Willie wanted one he could get one.

I am interested to see what happens with Amir Khan, every boxer with an ounce of bottle knows they can beat Amir Khan as long as the connect well on his chin.

I think if Willie had a rematch with Amir I'm sure he wouldn't hold back so much and would be using his right frequently.

Regards,


John :good

[AllyT]

AllyT,

I have mixed feeling about this fight, YES the referee was sympathetic to Amir Khan and gave him a chance. If the fight were in Scotland with a Scottish referee then I doubt the referee would have been as sympathetic and Amir Khan would have been counted out.

However, equally Limond's response following the count was poor. Willie had shaken Khan to his boots and Khan was there for the taking but Willie just lacked the determination to find that extra strength and courage to finish him.

I really would like to see a re-match and I'm sure if Willie wanted one he could get one.

I am interested to see what happens with Amir Khan, every boxer with an ounce of bottle knows they can beat Amir Khan as long as the connect well on his chin.

I think if Willie had a rematch with Amir I'm sure he wouldn't hold back so much and would be using his right frequently.

Regards,


John :good

No real arguement here. My point is about the application of the rules at that point in time.

The fight itself was a *******. I cant take anything away from Khan in the sense that having been rescued by the referee he battled back bravely to retake the bout. He may have been a little lucky with Limond sustaining a perforated ear drum which would have rendered him unable to defend himself. That said, not Khan's problem. I have no issue with Amir Khan but I do have an issue with the referee.

I do not think Khan's camp will be keen on a rematch, however If Willie dusts himself down and gets on with it he may be able to become the mandatory challanger for his old title.

I think some UK slang has failed an "American naughty word blocker" The word is "KRACKER". That I did not expect!!!!

[The Game]

kahn is on his feet in 5 seconds then takes a knee for the 8 count whats so hard to understand bout that.

[AllyT]

kahn is on his feet in 5 seconds then takes a knee for the 8 count whats so hard to understand bout that.

It is easy enough to understand it is just not true.

[barneyrub]

Watch the video, there is NO WAY the count could start at 2:04, the clock literally goes to 2:03 the moment he hits the ground, just as he lands with Limond tumbling over him it is at 2:04 and goes straight to 2:03.

By a HUGE push you could have the count starting at 2:03, and yet this would be very unlikely in any fight and would be holding this fight to a standard not seen in any other fights of recent memory. And yet even then, Khan is back on his feet from the knee at 1:54......a maximum of 9 seconds.

Thank fuck you people were not in charge of fights like Gatti-Ward.Clearly not, one of the stills poste dabove shows kahn on the canvas at 2.04. The referee is seen holding up 5 fingers at the 1.59 point on the clock meaning that that count indeed started at 2.04 and at 1.54, 10 secoonds after the clock struck 2.04 he is shown in the still picture as being down on one knee. Thats about as clear as possible.

[dwilson]

It is as clear as any wrong decision you will ever see in boxing. Khan should have lost but nothing will be done about it. Disgrace.

[DonPrestige]

Wow you guys are looking at this in depth. Lets just look at this the boxer who was always gonna win the fight won. Khan was the better boxer in the fight and it was planned to be that way from when it was signed. Now please lets move on and find out who the next hand picked opponent is gonna be.

[AllyT]

Clearly not, one of the stills poste dabove shows kahn on the canvas at 2.04. The referee is seen holding up 5 fingers at the 1.59 point on the clock meaning that that count indeed started at 2.04 and at 1.54, 10 secoonds after the clock struck 2.04 he is shown in the still picture as being down on one knee. Thats about as clear as possible.

Precisely!

2:04 let this one slide
2:03 "One"
2:02 "Two"
2:01 "Three"
2:00 "Four"
1:59 "Five"
1:58 "Six"
1:57 "Seven"
1:56 "Eight"
1:55 "Nine"
1:54 "Ten and Out"
1:53 "Still out"


By dropping at "Eight", Khan failed to show within 8 seconds that he was ready to box. Breach one.(It has been incorrectly stated Khan was 'taking the knee'. That is not the case. Taking the knee is acceptable on the rise, we teach this to our boxers. However having risen and taken the mandatory eight going back down it shows the boxer is unable to continue.
To claim a second knockdown is also not valid as it breaches Rule 38.i
38. The following acts shall not be permitted during a Contest:-
i. intentional falling without receiving a blow;)

By failing to be up and ready to box in ten seconds breach two.


By failing once raised to show the referee he was ready to box, breach 3.Compare Limond’s reaction to his knockdown. He raises, puts his gloves up right away and takes a definite step forward, indicating he is ready to box. Khan rose late puts his gloves up somewhat lethargically and fails to take a step forward.

This is not a case of a boxer falling foul of some obscure technical breach; it is a case of the rule book being torn up to accommodate the golden boy.

[dwilson]

Precisely!

2:04 let this one slide
2:03 "One"
2:02 "Two"
2:01 "Three"
2:00 "Four"
1:59 "Five"
1:58 "Six"
1:57 "Seven"
1:56 "Eight"
1:55 "Nine"
1:54 "Ten and Out"
1:53 "Still out"



By dropping at "Eight", Khan failed to show within 8 seconds that he was ready to box. Breach one.(It has been incorrectly stated Khan was 'taking the knee'. That is not the case. Taking the knee is acceptable on the rise, we teach this to our boxers. However having risen and taken the mandatory eight going back down it shows the boxer is unable to continue.
To claim a second knockdown is also not valid as it breaches Rule 38.i
38. The following acts shall not be permitted during a Contest:-
i. intentional falling without receiving a blow;)


By failing to be up and ready to box in ten seconds breach two.



By failing once raised to show the referee he was ready to box, breach 3.Compare Limond’s reaction to his knockdown. He raises, puts his gloves up right away and takes a definite step forward, indicating he is ready to box. Khan rose late puts his gloves up somewhat lethargically and fails to take a step forward.


This is not a case of a boxer falling foul of some obscure technical breach; it is a case of the rule book being torn up to accommodate the golden boy.


Put perfect. That is the same assessment that I have made.

The golden boy part rings too true as well.

[achillesthegreat]

Ally stop being ridiculous. The count is not done in real time, it is done on the refs hands. The ref was at 8, when Khan went to a knee and the ref told him to get up. There was clear confusion with Khan, his corner and the ref. Human error on both parts. Thankfully it was for the good because you want Limond to win because of a mistake.

Khan was fine to continue. Infact he pretty much got up straight away and it was the ref that said he needs to take a mandatory 8. Khan was ready to continue before the 8 count. It is because of the mandatory 8 that Khan went to a knee. He then saw, as did the ref, that there was nothing left to count. Why? Because the ref started counting at 5 and not 1. Probably another mistake considering Limond wasn't in his corner yet (unless there are different rules in different places).

[LeadLeftHook]

Precisely!

2:04 let this one slide
2:03 "One"
2:02 "Two"
2:01 "Three"
2:00 "Four"
1:59 "Five"
1:58 "Six"
1:57 "Seven"
1:56 "Eight"
1:55 "Nine"
1:54 "Ten and Out"
1:53 "Still out"







By dropping at "Eight", Khan failed to show within 8 seconds that he was ready to box. Breach one.(It has been incorrectly stated Khan was 'taking the knee'. That is not the case. Taking the knee is acceptable on the rise, we teach this to our boxers. However having risen and taken the mandatory eight going back down it shows the boxer is unable to continue.
To claim a second knockdown is also not valid as it breaches Rule 38.i
38. The following acts shall not be permitted during a Contest:-
i. intentional falling without receiving a blow;)






By failing to be up and ready to box in ten seconds breach two.







By failing once raised to show the referee he was ready to box, breach 3.Compare Limond’s reaction to his knockdown. He raises, puts his gloves up right away and takes a definite step forward, indicating he is ready to box. Khan rose late puts his gloves up somewhat lethargically and fails to take a step forward.






This is not a case of a boxer falling foul of some obscure technical breach; it is a case of the rule book being torn up to accommodate the golden boy.

You are ignoring the fact that count has human delay factor and isnt compuerized as other have said.

In any case lets go over your supporting arguments.
Breach 1:
When you say "By dropping at "Eight", Khan failed to show within 8 seconds that he was ready to box. Breach one."

Which point in the rule says that its a breach for a fighter not to be up at 8?
It simply says
"The Referee shall not permit a Boxer to continue boxing, if in his opinion he is able to do so, until the expiration of 8 seconds following the knock down. "

Breach 2,3: "By failing to be up and ready to box in ten seconds breach two. By failing once raised to show the referee he was ready to box, breach 3"

If you want to strictly go by the rules you are overlooking one significant point which I have also mentioned before. Its your subjective opinion that the rule cannot mean as I say since it would otherwise be like a musical chair. You need to show me where in the rule book it cannot mean as I say.

For example, NY state boxing commision covers this:
" Should a contest who is “down” arise before count of ten is reached and again go down intentionally, without being struck, the referee and timekeeper shall resume count where it left off. "

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

The is not covered by the BBBoC rules.
"


Should a Boxer go down to the floor as the result of a legitimate blow, the Timekeeper shall count off the seconds strictly in accordance with his watch. The opponent shall retire immediately to the furthest neutral corner and neither Boxer shall resume boxing until ordered to do so by the Referee.




In this Regulation 3.32, “down” shall mean one or more of the following:-



when a Boxer falls from the boxing ring beyond the ring apron as a result of a legitimate blow; or
when a Boxer is on one foot or both feet and at the same time any other part of his body is touching the floor of the boxing ring; or
when a Boxer is supported on the ropes of the boxing ring and, in the opinion of the Referee, is unable to defend himself; or
when a Boxer is in the act of rising
and in all of the above cases, a Boxer shall be considered to be down until he has regained his feet within the boxing ring and is in a position and a condition to defend himself"

Hence, once Khan got up and went down volunatarily according to BBBoC rules, the count should be restarted in accordance with the BBBoC rule and its 10-7 round. This is because rule 32 takes effect as long as the definition of "down" is statisfied. BBBoC should add the following to definition of "down" as is documented in the NY state commision.
" Should a contest who is “down” arise before count of ten is reached and again go down intentionally, without being struck, the referee and timekeeper shall resume count where it left off. "

[AllyT]

Ally stop being ridiculous. The count is not done in real time, it is done on the refs hands. The ref was at 8, when Khan went to a knee and the ref told him to get up. There was clear confusion with Khan, his corner and the ref. Human error on both parts. Thankfully it was for the good because you want Limond to win because of a mistake.

Khan was fine to continue. Infact he pretty much got up straight away and it was the ref that said he needs to take a mandatory 8. Khan was ready to continue before the 8 count. It is because of the mandatory 8 that Khan went to a knee. He then saw, as did the ref, that there was nothing left to count. Why? Because the ref started counting at 5 and not 1. Probably another mistake considering Limond wasn't in his corner yet (unless there are different rules in different places).

I think there is a lot of confusion in some people’s minds. There are, I think several reasons for this.

Firstly there are many sanctioning bodies and each has their own rules. As a consequence, seeing one set of circumstances in one bout may have little or no bearing on a bout under the auspices of a different sanctioning body.

Secondly if we take the example of the BBBoC. They have at least two sets of rules depending on the nature of the bout. For a non title domestic bout much of the licence that has been assumed to exist for the Khan v Limond bout, does in fact exist, as pretty much total control of the bout rests with the referee. However, crucially, this is not true for British title fights and Commonwealth title fights, then the rules I have quoted apply.

Therefore –

You are simply wrong on the count, as with amateur boxing, it is the timekeeper who is responsible for the count. I have acted as timekeeper in amateur contests and if a boxer goes down the time keeper beats out the seconds to guide the referee. To anyone watching it would appear that the referee is in charge of the count but it is not the case. He is merely making the boxer aware of the time as determined by the time keeper. It is a similar situation here.

As stated in the rules the referee waited for Limond to retreat to his corner. He then looks to the time keeper and correctly commences counting at “5”.

The rules do not allow a boxer to back down as this runs counter to the mandatory eight-count and to rule 38.i.

The referee should not have waived Khan up; this was an error.

The referee has no discretion with the eight count it is compulsory.

There was confusion from Khan but this is not an excuse. If his confusion was down to being concussed, he was not fit to continue. If on the other hand he and his corner had not made themselves familiar with the rules under which they were operating have no one to blame but themselves. If a footballer picked up the ball in his penalty area because he did not know it was not allowed it would not save him from a red card. As with any other sport, or with the law, ignorance is no excuse.

If my sticking to the rules of the bout and video evidence makes me ridiculous then I am happy to be so. It is ridiculous people like me that ensure the little guy gets a fair deal.

LeadLeftHJook. -

It is required that a boxer retreats to the neutral corner but the crucial point here is that it does not delay the count. Watch the ref, he ensures Limond retires, looks to the time keeper and then correctly takes up the count at '5'

I already have, it was not a second knockdown or it would have contravined 38.i.

The breach is not getting up it is going back down.
NY state commission - irrelevant.

Everything else is already covered elsewere.

[box-now]

willie was robbed because khan DID not make the count, its a fact.

[achillesthegreat]

I think there is a lot of confusion in some people’s minds. There are, I think several reasons for this.

Firstly there are many sanctioning bodies and each has their own rules. As a consequence, seeing one set of circumstances in one bout may have little or no bearing on a bout under the auspices of a different sanctioning body.

Secondly if we take the example of the BBBoC. They have at least two sets of rules depending on the nature of the bout. For a non title domestic bout much of the licence that has been assumed to exist for the Khan v Limond bout, does in fact exist, as pretty much total control of the bout rests with the referee. However, crucially, this is not true for British title fights and Commonwealth title fights, then the rules I have quoted apply.

Therefore –

You are simply wrong on the count, as with amateur boxing, it is the timekeeper who is responsible for the count. I have acted as timekeeper in amateur contests and if a boxer goes down the time keeper beats out the seconds to guide the referee. To anyone watching it would appear that the referee is in charge of the count but it is not the case. He is merely making the boxer aware of the time as determined by the time keeper. It is a similar situation here.

As stated in the rules the referee waited for Limond to retreat to his corner. He then looks to the time keeper and correctly commences counting at “5”.

The rules do not allow a boxer to back down as this runs counter to the mandatory eight-count and to rule 38.i.

The referee should not have waived Khan up; this was an error.

The referee has no discretion with the eight count it is compulsory.

There was confusion from Khan but this is not an excuse. If his confusion was down to being concussed, he was not fit to continue. If on the other hand he and his corner had not made themselves familiar with the rules under which they were operating have no one to blame but themselves. If a footballer picked up the ball in his penalty area because he did not know it was not allowed it would not save him from a red card. As with any other sport, or with the law, ignorance is no excuse.

If my sticking to the rules of the bout and video evidence makes me ridiculous then I am happy to be so. It is ridiculous people like me that ensure the little guy gets a fair deal.

LeadLeftHJook. -

It is required that a boxer retreats to the neutral corner but the crucial point here is that it does not delay the count. Watch the ref, he ensures Limond retires, looks to the time keeper and then correctly takes up the count at '5'

I already have, it was not a second knockdown or it would have contravined 38.i.

The breach is not getting up it is going back down.
NY state commission - irrelevant.

Everything else is already covered elsewere.

Khan was up straight away. The ref said he has to wait for an 8 count. He went down to one knee because he was confused as he corner had told him to. The ref realised the confusion and told him to get up. There was confusion for Khan as the ref made a mistake.

Like I said ULTIMATELY the mistake was a good thing because Khan was fit to continue.

You prefer Limond win because of a mistake? Don't beat around the bush, Limond won two rounds at best!

[achillesthegreat]

LOL. Even your picture shows Khan on a knee but showing the ref he is ok by holding his gloves up.

[AllyT]

Khan was up straight away. The ref said he has to wait for an 8 count. He went down to one knee because he was confused as he corner had told him to. The ref realised the confusion and told him to get up. There was confusion for Khan as the ref made a mistake.

Like I said ULTIMATELY the mistake was a good thing because Khan was fit to continue.

You prefer Limond win because of a mistake? Don't beat around the bush, Limond won two rounds at best!

It was Khan who won because of a mistake.

The 8 count was not an error it is in the rules and is COMPUSLARY!!!!

If Khan and his team did not know the rules then the blame for that lies with them and no one else. Had the referee correctly stopped the bout, Khan would no doubt have cried foul as he was unsure of the rules. However all that would prove was, that he and his team were so arrogant they did not bother to consider a KD, in which case they deserved to lose.

The referee’s first mistake was not to stop the bout when Khan drops during the count. The picture you find amusing, clearly shows at after the stipulated ten seconds Khan obviously has no idea whether it is New Year or New York. This is the referee’s second mistake. When Khan finally rises he is still in a state of confusion. By allowing him to continue the referee made his third mistake. The fact that Khan went on to win makes no difference, as the referee has to officiate in the moment and not with hindsight. Although this worked for Khan on the day it could have gone badly wrong. The reason for this is, allowing an already concussed boxer to continue places him at severe risk of 'secondary concussion'.

Secondary concussion is far more dangerous than any initial brain injury and is a major cause of dementia in contact sports. Despite what you may think, the referee failed to protect the boxer. If Khan is allowed to continue with his current reckless style and is sheltered from his mistakes by home town decisions he will in my view end up punch drunk.

From Khans point of view I believe that it would have been better for him in the long term if the result had gone the other way. The lad desperately needs a reality check, and this should have been it. By protecting him from a legitimate KO they only reinforce his delusions of invincibility. The example I would give is Alex Arthur, I have watched most of his fights and am a fan, I was there to support him against Willie Limond and I saw him defeated by Gomez. Gomez was the best thing that ever happened to Arthur. He gave him a much needed reality check and as a consequence Arthur is now a better boxer and a better man.

Rules are there to ensure fair play, if they are not properly observed the sport ceases to be fair and therefore ceases to be a true sport. There are more and more rivals to boxing springing up. If they are deemed by the public to be more even handed, fans will drift away from boxing as the predictability of results makes it look like the 21st century version of WWF. My concerns here are not for Limond as that is now a done deal, but if there is enough stink raised about bad decisions it might just help the next victim.

[achillesthegreat]

BUT HE'S ON HIS KNEES!!!!

Are you going to say that he could have thrown some hooks from the floor?

Khan had to wait till the count of 8, since he'd chosen to stand, his corner should have told him to stay up. The count was still active so, even if he had taken a knee, he had chosen to stand previously which meant taking a knee would have constituted an inability to continue, not a second KD.

Saying "I'm ok" while down on your knees isn't awfully convincing and taking a knee without receiving a blow cannot be counted as a second KD.

The ref disregarded the count because he knew that place would erupt and, chances are, he'd never be given another big match to referee at again.

I think Khan won it, but only because he was given a chance that Limond wasn't.
The ref said he needed to take the 8 count. Khan wanted to fight straight away. The ref said you need to go to 8 so he went to an 8 to wait out the count. As soon as he put his knee down the ref was on 8 anyway. The ref knew this so told him to get up. Basically the ref saved him from making a grave mistake.

[achillesthegreat]

It was Khan who won because of a mistake.

The 8 count was not an error it is in the rules and is COMPUSLARY!!!!

If Khan and his team did not know the rules then the blame for that lies with them and no one else. Had the referee correctly stopped the bout, Khan would no doubt have cried foul as he was unsure of the rules. However all that would prove was, that he and his team were so arrogant they did not bother to consider a KD, in which case they deserved to lose.

The referee’s first mistake was not to stop the bout when Khan drops during the count. The picture you find amusing, clearly shows at after the stipulated ten seconds Khan obviously has no idea whether it is New Year or New York. This is the referee’s second mistake. When Khan finally rises he is still in a state of confusion. By allowing him to continue the referee made his third mistake. The fact that Khan went on to win makes no difference, as the referee has to officiate in the moment and not with hindsight. Although this worked for Khan on the day it could have gone badly wrong. The reason for this is, allowing an already concussed boxer to continue places him at severe risk of 'secondary concussion'.

Secondary concussion is far more dangerous than any initial brain injury and is a major cause of dementia in contact sports. Despite what you may think, the referee failed to protect the boxer. If Khan is allowed to continue with his current reckless style and is sheltered from his mistakes by home town decisions he will in my view end up punch drunk.

From Khans point of view I believe that it would have been better for him in the long term if the result had gone the other way. The lad desperately needs a reality check, and this should have been it. By protecting him from a legitimate KO they only reinforce his delusions of invincibility. The example I would give is Alex Arthur, I have watched most of his fights and am a fan, I was there to support him against Willie Limond and I saw him defeated by Gomez. Gomez was the best thing that ever happened to Arthur. He gave him a much needed reality check and as a consequence Arthur is now a better boxer and a better man.

Rules are there to ensure fair play, if they are not properly observed the sport ceases to be fair and therefore ceases to be a true sport. There are more and more rivals to boxing springing up. If they are deemed by the public to be more even handed, fans will drift away from boxing as the predictability of results makes it look like the 21st century version of WWF. My concerns here are not for Limond as that is now a done deal, but if there is enough stink raised about bad decisions it might just help the next victim.
I already said that Khan was down for 9 or 10 seconds. I said this before you started all your bally hoo.

The ref and Khan made a mistake. Get over it. In reality Khan was fit to continue. Stop wanting Limond to win because of a mistake.

[AllyT]

To the Willie warmers:

Thanks for supporting (and understanding) my argument but this is now flogging a dead horse.

Rushed judgements are notoriously stubborn. This is where many of the 'Bermuda Triangle' type stories come from. Pilots see a land mark which they miss-identify, leading them to fly in the wrong direction. No matter how much evidence is presented to them after this initial judgement they will not change their minds. This is why their last words before disappearing over the horizon are often along the lines of "There is some kind of magnetic field" or "the instruments are not working". Their compass, radar, and other instruments are in fact working fine but they will not accept anything that contradicts their initial view. So, off they fly into the sunset never to be seen again. We can shout over the radio all we like but it is futile. All that will come back is

"Smoke me a Kipper".


To the Khan can's:

Should someone who understands these rules a lot better than I do (say an ex ref) shed new light I may have to change my opinion but until then my view is settled. I have tried to present my argument as best I can. Some will agree some will not. I have now said all I think I can and have no more ability, information or argument to persuade anyone that is not already persuaded. We will just have to agree to disagree.

"Smoke me a Kipper".

No matter what your opinion hopefully some fans have more insight into the rules of the game.

[achillesthegreat]

Wait... Khan was NOT fit to continue when he was standing. But since he'd chosen to stand, the ref should have administered a standing 8 count. He didn't.

Khan shouldn't have gone down on a knee because that signifies you aren't fit to continue.

It's a plain application of the rules.

Whether khan won is secondary because the fight SHOULD have been stopped.
He got up straight away and was even arguing it was a push. He had his hands up, was talking and responding.

You are on crack.

There was confusion with both Khan and the ref. It happens. Nothing goes perfectly. It has happened many times in boxing. Thankfully Khan wasn't penalised because he was fit to continue.

You just want Khan to have lost on a mistake. That is what it boils down to.