View Full Version : Gentlemen, Your Thoughts on Sugar Ray Robinson at 160lbs...
Against Haggler, Hearns, Monzon, etc.
How about against Jones above 160lbs?
I have had some of Ray's tapes on today that I recorded a few years back at 160lbs. Footage included Basilio, Graziano, Fullmer, Tiger Jones, Lamotta, etc. With all of this footage my head was spinning with fantasy matchup potential. The 160lb Robinson was not the best Robinson, but still had good speed, power in both hands, great conditioning, great chin, and great command of distance.
Thoughts?
This is a better thread for the classic forum, but being that it is here I welcome any thoughtful posts.
drunkenspaniard
05-23-2008, 11:41 PM
Quite honestly, the only one I would give him an advantage over is Hearns, in a scenario similar to that of SRL - Hearns. I see Monzon as having too much of a reach advantage, similar to Hearns, but he would actually have the chin to back it up, soi see him winning a UD. As far as Hagler goes, I think Hagler would win by late KO. All 3 fights would be entertaining IMO.
Quote honestly, the only one I would give him an advantage over is Hearns, in a scenario similar to that of SRL - Hearns. I see Monzon as having too much of a reach advantage, similar to Hearns, but he would actually have the chin to back it up, soi see him winning a UD. As far as Hagler goes, I think Hagler would win by late KO. All 3 fights would be entertaining IMO.
Haggler by KO? :think
Little difficult to concieve of this given SRR's chin.
drunkenspaniard
05-23-2008, 11:49 PM
Haggler by KO? :think
Little difficult to concieve of this given SRR's chin.
Yeah I guess you're right. I was thinking stoppage but for some reason I said KO. I can just picture Robinson taking a couple of unanswered shots and the ref stepping in to stop it.
salsanchezfan
05-24-2008, 12:15 AM
...............Although I consider Hagler the better middleweight, I think Ray beats him. A smart boxer who happens to be real sturdy (and this doesn't just mean Leonard; Monroe also fit this mold) can get to Hagler. Robinson wouldn't just jab and dance, either; he'd jolt Hagler with those passioned flurries and have him off balance, though I don't see him seriously hurting Marvin.
Monzon would beat him, though. He wouldn't take the chances and could work at a greater range than Hagler, and keep ay on the defensive behind that long jab. Rather than fight inside the way Hagler would, Monzon would limit Ray's patented inside flurries by clinching and spinning him. Monzon by decision.
...............Although I consider Hagler the better middleweight, I think Ray beats him. A smart boxer who happens to be real sturdy (and this doesn't just mean Leonard; Monroe also fit this mold) can get to Hagler. Robinson wouldn't just jab and dance, either; he'd jolt Hagler with those passioned flurries and have him off balance, though I don't see him seriously hurting Marvin.
Monzon would beat him, though. He wouldn't take the chances and could work at a greater range than Hagler, and keep ay on the defensive behind that long jab. Rather than fight inside the way Hagler would, Monzon would limit Ray's patented inside flurries by clinching and spinning him. Monzon by decision.
Thanks for dropping by.
I agree with the Haggler assesment because I don't see Ray giving up his height and as you said he could punch as well.
How about a 168/175lb match with Roy Jones Jr? Or a 160lb showdown with Hearns.
Amsterdam
05-24-2008, 01:35 AM
Is not a top H2H at 160, at 147 he does very well, but he's outgunned and outsized by real MW ATG's and top elite's. Hagler losing to Ray? Get real, Hagler by stoppage is the most reasonable pick on accumulation, defence was never Ray's thing and if La Motta was able to get work in on him...:yep
Monzon would absolutely crush him on his best night by the way and Jones-Robinson is a mismatch at 168.
Honestly, Hearns/Robinson at 147 is one where I favour Hearns. At 160 I seriously favour Hearns, as Hearns was still very good in that range.
salsanchezfan
05-24-2008, 01:42 AM
Is not a top H2H at 160, at 147 he does very well, but he's outgunned and outsized by real MW ATG's and top elite's. Hagler losing to Ray? Get real, Hagler by stoppage is the most reasonable pick on accumulation, defence was never Ray's thing and if La Motta was able to get work in on him...:yep
Monzon would absolutely crush him on his best night by the way and Jones-Robinson is a mismatch at 168.
Honestly, Hearns/Robinson at 147 is one where I favour Hearns. At 160 I seriously favour Hearns, as Hearns was still very good in that range.
.............No way does Hagler stop Ray. Not happening. You should already know this.
Is not a top H2H at 160, at 147 he does very well, but he's outgunned and outsized by real MW ATG's and top elite's. Hagler losing to Ray? Get real, Hagler by stoppage is the most reasonable pick on accumulation, defence was never Ray's thing and if La Motta was able to get work in on him...:yep
Monzon would absolutely crush him on his best night by the way and Jones-Robinson is a mismatch at 168.
Honestly, Hearns/Robinson at 147 is one where I favour Hearns. At 160 I seriously favour Hearns, as Hearns was still very good in that range.
Come on now. Lamotta beat him once in six fights, at a time when moving up in weight class meant having to adjust to larger jumps in weight.
WhataRock
05-24-2008, 01:53 AM
off the [Only registered and activated users can see links]
McGrain
05-24-2008, 02:10 AM
He could probably beat all of them, though obviously he wouldn't as part of a busier schedule.
I agree that Robinson would get beaten up taking on Jones at 168 during the bigger man's prime, but I make Sugar a favourite over the Jones that beat Hopkins.
cuchulain
05-24-2008, 03:37 AM
Is not a top H2H at 160, at 147 he does very well, but he's outgunned and outsized by real MW ATG's and top elite's. Hagler losing to Ray? Get real, Hagler by stoppage is the most reasonable pick on accumulation, defence was never Ray's thing and if La Motta was able to get work in on him...:yep
Monzon would absolutely crush him on his best night by the way and Jones-Robinson is a mismatch at 168.
Honestly, Hearns/Robinson at 147 is one where I favour Hearns. At 160 I seriously favour Hearns, as Hearns was still very good in that range.
At 160, Robinson is a little too small for the big guys of that division.
But at 147, i wouldn't pick anyone over him, and certainly not Hearns.
Sweet Pea
05-24-2008, 01:08 PM
Quite honestly, the only one I would give him an advantage over is Hearns, in a scenario similar to that of SRL - Hearns. I see Monzon as having too much of a reach advantage, similar to Hearns, but he would actually have the chin to back it up, soi see him winning a UD. As far as Hagler goes, I think Hagler would win by late KO. All 3 fights would be entertaining IMO.Hagler would not KO Robinson.
Robinson is a bit underrated at MW because of the fact that most consider him at his best at 147, when they don't realize all of the footage they see and praise is of a MW Robinson. He was better at 147 yes, but at his best, he was fantastic at MW as well. He'd have taken Hearns out within 5 at any weight, as that fight would've turned into a brawl, and no way does Hearns's chin hold up to Robinson's chin and power.
He's capable of losing the other bouts, but I'd give him a better chance against Hagler than Monzon. I may rate Monzon tops at MW.
Against Jones at 160, I guarantee you Ray would win at least 1 of 3.
Coast
05-24-2008, 09:50 PM
This is one of those rare times you actually see SRR underated. Hagler would not KO a prime Ray, SRR fought 200 fights until he was an ancient 44 and the only time he didn't finish a fight was because of heat exhaustion. Duran certainly wasn't known as a defence first fighter and actually made it close over 15. Duran started his career at 119, and Ray has no chance of going the distance?
If a 35 year old former Welterweight champ like Griffin can give prime Monzon a tough fight, how can you say that a prime SRR couldn't?
It's true that his best weight was 147, but when he finally grew into a middleweight in the late 40's until his first retirement in 52 he would be hell for any middleweight. Most people remember his middleweight fights from the late 50's/early 60's comeback when he was well past his best. He only weighed 144 for the 1 fight he lost to Lamotta by the way.
How great would Hearns-SRR at 147 be?
Bump, my back to back viewing of Haggler vs Sibson and SRR vs Fullmer II has my mind swirling on this.
More thoughts please from those who didn't get in on this h2h matchup.
Against Haggler, Hearns, Monzon, etc.
How about against Jones above 160lbs?
I have had some of Ray's tapes on today that I recorded a few years back at 160lbs. Footage included Basilio, Graziano, Fullmer, Tiger Jones, Lamotta, etc. With all of this footage my head was spinning with fantasy matchup potential. The 160lb Robinson was not the best Robinson, but still had good speed, power in both hands, great conditioning, great chin, and great command of distance.
Thoughts? Even a green Roy Jones would have absolutely spanked him at this weight. Too much speed, too much power, too much natural size. He would be simply better than SRR in every area EXCEPT for experience.
Even a green Roy Jones would have absolutely spanked him at this weight. Too much speed, too much power, too much natural size. He would be simply better than SRR in every area EXCEPT for experience.
What are your thoughts on Haggler? Jones had the athleticism, speed, and size to frustrate SRR at this weight, but Haggler obviously brings other goods to the table, but not these. What Haggler brings doesn't seem as tough stylisticaly against SRR as Jones IMO.
Thoughts?
Hey MSTR by the way I can't get on to that site you turned me on to, it won't let me log in with my email adress (have tried 3)... frustrating.
Hey MSTR by the way I can't get on to that site you turned me on to, it won't let me log in with my email adress (have tried 3)... frustrating.
Hmmm, not sure what the problem is mate. Unless you logged on once before and didn't use your password. Your IP address may be blocked. I actually got banned becaue i let my ratio slip, which i am pretty dirty about. If you get your Service Provider to change your IP though it will let you in. Try shooting them an email. I downloaded a ridiculous amount of fights, in dvd quality from that site. It was unreal. I was an idiot for letting my ratio slip, and am paying for it now. In Australia, it is the only way a fight fan can really keep up on everything. The archives they have of classic fights is unreal as well... It used to annoy me to be honest, as much of it doesn't really interest me presonally. Although i know some of you guys would be jumping over the moon.
Hmmm, not sure what the problem is mate. Unless you logged on once before and didn't use your password. Your IP address may be blocked. I actually got banned becaue i let my ratio slip, which i am pretty dirty about. If you get your Service Provider to change your IP though it will let you in. Try shooting them an email. I downloaded a ridiculous amount of fights, in dvd quality from that site. It was unreal. I was an idiot for letting my ratio slip, and am paying for it now. In Australia, it is the only way a fight fan can really keep up on everything. The archives they have of classic fights is unreal as well... It used to annoy me to be honest, as much of it doesn't really interest me presonally. Although i know some of you guys would be jumping over the moon.
Yea I have no idea what is going on, I haven't ever been on the site and can't get their email adress without loggin in. Sounds like an excellent place.
What are your thoughts on Haggler? Jones had the athleticism, speed, and size to frustrate SRR at this weight, but Haggler obviously brings other goods to the table, but not these. What Haggler brings doesn't seem as tough stylisticaly against SRR as Jones IMO.
Thoughts?
Hmmm, its hard for me to make an objective pick. I think SRR was talented, but i have my opinions regarding era's between him and Hagler. Still, i'll try and answer this leaving it out of the equation. In terms of style, Haggler could get in trouble vs SRR. WHilst he is a very well roudned boxer, SRR possessed the greater speed, and the unorthadox combinations and punches to confuse Haggler. I honestly think that Haggler being the bigger guy at 160, and being in his actual prime could make this an extremely hard to overcome though for SRR. Maybe wearing him down, or using his jab to back him up and making it a war in close. I would probably lean towards Marvin, but i don't think it would be clear cut as some others here do. It would be interested to see who possessed the better movement. I believe it was Hagglers biggest weakness, and something that SRR could potentially exploit.
ACB, check the trash or blocked emails on whatever program you are using. My password went in there once, preventing me from logging on.
Hmmm, its hard for me to make an objective pick. I think SRR was talented, but i have my opinions regarding era's between him and Hagler. Still, i'll try and answer this leaving it out of the equation. In terms of style, Haggler could get in trouble vs SRR. WHilst he is a very well roudned boxer, SRR possessed the greater speed, and the unorthadox combinations and punches to confuse Haggler. I honestly think that Haggler being the bigger guy at 160, and being in his actual prime could make this an extremely hard to overcome though for SRR. Maybe wearing him down, or using his jab to back him up and making it a war in close. I would probably lean towards Marvin, but i don't think it would be clear cut as some others here do. It would be interested to see who possessed the better movement. I believe it was Hagglers biggest weakness, and something that SRR could potentially exploit.
This is an excellent post, in particular the point about the movement which is why I think SRR would have a good shot at this in addition to his length in the ring. Its really a pick'em that I see Ray winning but not very comfortably. With a determined effort though, I can also envision Haggler winning through a sustained body attack and by matching Ray's jab. :think
I will see what I can do about the site, thanks for the heads up.
Amsterdam
06-03-2008, 01:56 AM
There's no way Ray beats Hagler, when he was troubled by primitive slop like La Motta. It's simple common sense logic.
Hagler in 5.
There's no way Ray beats Hagler, when he was troubled by primitive slop like La Motta. It's simple common sense logic.
Hagler in 5.
Please. Quickly name me a few fighters who finished SRR in 5 rounds.
I already made the point earlier in the thread, that Lamotta beat him once out of six fights, and it was soon after SRR's jump from 147lbs to 160lbs, a jump very uncommon in today's landscape of boxing.
You don't like classic fighters, everyone knows. Lets move on.
Amsterdam
06-03-2008, 02:12 AM
Please. Quickly name me a few fighters who finished SRR in 5 rounds.
Nobody was in Hagler's league back then, not even close, Hagler's a big jump forward as a fighter from the MW crop then. Ray was an advancement, but his welterweight size and defensive holes have Hagler an easy opponent.
Similiar, Duran would school Ray at 147, depending on his gameplan.
I already made the point earlier in the thread, that Lamotta beat him once out of six fights, and it was soon after SRR's jump from 147lbs to 160lbs, a jump very uncommon in today's landscape of boxing.
And La Motta is horrible, look at the film footage, there is nothing redeeming there except for stamina, chin and durability, he's one of the worst 'HOF' fighters I've ever seen, a journeyman in skill, no more.
You don't like classic fighters, everyone knows. Lets move on.
I take my life's frustrations out on classic fighters. Some people like to take their problems out on their family and friends, I just like to grill classic boxers, it's all good.
cardstars
06-03-2008, 02:14 AM
Well my all time fantasy matchup would be SRR/Hagler. This is a tough pick for me because Hagler is my all time favorite. I think I end up giving the nod to SRR though, seeing as how speed and timing was about the only way to beat Hagler (combined with other goods obviously such as stamina and chin). I also don't see Hagler stalking SRR in the latter rounds when he may be behind on the cards, as SRR's speed and power might make Hagler more prone to try and "box" as I see it. Not to mention SRR had excellent movement in the ring.
I also favor SRR over Monzon. Monzon seemed to try and get his opponents "off their gameplan", and frustrated, which wouldn't work against SRR. I favor Hagler over Monzon for the same reason, and I also think that Marvin would be pumped and "mean" for this fight, seeing as how I have heard Monzon downplay Marvins greatness in the past. I remember hearing him say Marvins power was overrated and he was beatable before the Roldan fight. So I see a pumped up unbeatable Marvin against Monzon.
As for RJJr I favor him over SRR at 168. RJJr at 168 is my #1 h2h fighter. He would have everything SRR does plus a few more intangibles.
Nobody was in Hagler's league back then, not even close, Hagler's a big jump forward as a fighter from the MW crop then. Ray was an advancement, but his welterweight size and defensive holes have Hagler an easy opponent.
Similiar, Duran would school Ray at 147, depending on his gameplan.
And La Motta is horrible, look at the film footage, there is nothing redeeming there except for stamina, chin and durability, he's one of the worst 'HOF' fighters I've ever seen, a journeyman in skill, no more.
I take my life's frustrations out on classic fighters. Some people like to take their problems out on their family and friends, I just like to grill classic boxers, it's all good.
LMAO at the last bit. I actually feel the same way, but i am sick of having the same tired arguements with people. I think from now on i might just analyze like i would any other fight, and take my opinions reagrding eras out of the equation. At least it makes for more interesting conversation.
Danny
06-03-2008, 09:23 AM
At MW, Robinson is a brilliant fighter, but not as good as he was when he was campaigning at Welter.
In my view, Hagler is the best MW ever & I think the marvelous one would have won by SD over Robinson.
I also think Monzon would have scored a UD over Robinson, but I would pick Ray to beat Hearns. I really don't see how Hearns would win? I mean, if tommy went for the KO, he could well end up being KO'd himself & I don't think he outboxes Robinson.
At Welterweight, Ray Robinson is the best P4P fighter in history, followed by Henry Armstrong!
brownshell
06-03-2008, 11:55 AM
The problem with these p4p matchups is sometimes age, and how much a fighter loses or gains at whatever weight has to be factored in. I say just forget the weight and imagine each fighter's skill, heart and physical assets at their best weight, put each fighter in their primes as well and then I would say that Suger Ray Robinson would be all these fighters.
There's no way Ray beats Hagler, when he was troubled by primitive slop like La Motta. It's simple common sense logic.
Hagler in 5.
disagree , Lamata was a extremely strong middle weight maybe just as strong as Hagler in his prime .
Hagler also had issue with fighter slicker then himself , Duran and Ray Leonard are the two fighter that come to mind , nether one of these fighter played into Hagler strength , which was standing in front of Stronger Hagler ..
Hagler was a excellent boxer which he seldom gets credit for but he lack the slickness and depth that Ray Robinson would bring , I don't think Ray had enough pop in his punches to KO Hagler but combined with his skill and speed he would make Hagler respect him way more then , he did against Duran or Leonard ..
based on that I going with Robinson with a close UD decision over hagler .
and a close loss against Monzon maybe .
BITCH ASS
06-03-2008, 05:32 PM
Nobody was in Hagler's league back then, not even close, Hagler's a big jump forward as a fighter from the MW crop then. Ray was an advancement, but his welterweight size and defensive holes have Hagler an easy opponent.
Similiar, Duran would school Ray at 147, depending on his gameplan.
And La Motta is horrible, look at the film footage, there is nothing redeeming there except for stamina, chin and durability, he's one of the worst 'HOF' fighters I've ever seen, a journeyman in skill, no more.
I take my life's frustrations out on classic fighters. Some people like to take their problems out on their family and friends, I just like to grill classic boxers, it's all good.
The guy never went down. Why are you entirely obsessed with skill?
What's skill with no heart? Look at Kelly Pavlik, he's nothing to brag about from a physical perspective as far as raw natural tallent is concered, except for his power and his stamina, but the guy is the middleweight champion and would do well in any era in my opinion.
Hagler was no where near the tallent level of Hearns in my opinion, but his chin, tenacity, power, and size in combinations with Hearns taking the fight right to him, won Hagler the fight.
Sure Lamotta wasn't as tallented as Ray, but the guy kept coming and never gave up. He would wear fighters down and knock them out. Haven't you ever fought a guy before that you couldn't put down? It's incredibly frusterating.
I don't think he fairs too well h2h at 160 really, I wouldn't pick him against any, but obviously Hearns is a big chance due to chin issues and I can see Hearns getting dragged into fighting Ray's fight. Against Roy Jones even further past his prime weight I wouldn't even like to think about, he's certain to get knocked out. Monzon would beat him wide too, far too big and long
147 is a different story entirely
vBulletin® v3.8.0, Copyright ©2000-2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.