Can any of today's guys become the best 147 of all time?

[thewoo]

or at least # 2 behind SRR?

147 is as stacked as it's ever been. Suppose Cotto were to fight and beat DLH, Mosley, Floyd, Williams, Margarito, Cintron, Clotty and Collazo. I know this is a huge if but lets suppose it were to happen or interchange some names with Floyd or williams beating all those other guys.

I am not as knowledgable as some of you other guys in terms of history but I would think that would be an ATG 147 resume no?

[Caper]

or at least # 2 behind SRR?

147 is as stacked as it's ever been. Suppose Cotto were to fight and beat DLH, Mosley, Floyd, Williams, Margarito, Cintron, Clotty and Collazo. I know this is a huge if but lets suppose it were to happen or interchange some names with Floyd or williams beating all those other guys.

I am not as knowledgable as some of you other guys in terms of history but I would think that would be an ATG 147 resume no?

That's one hell of a task even for superman, so yes he would go right behind SRR as a 47lbs maybe even #1

Huge IF..:yep


But it can happen:yep

WAR COTTO:spy

[thunder06]

i believe if any guy from 147 beat all the other competition, an argument could be made for them to be a top 5 ATG welterweight. right now i believe cotto, mosley, hatton and mayweather have the potential to be an ATG.

[DaveTheWave]

Not a chance. We've seen the best. It won't get better.

[Caper]

i believe if any guy from 147 beat all the other competition, an argument could be made for them to be a top 5 ATG welterweight. right now i believe cotto, mosley, hatton and mayweather have the potential to be an ATG.

I's liketadid what you said too buddy:p

[thunder06]

I's liketadid what you said too buddy:p

sure

[Caper]

Not a chance. We've seen the best. It won't get better.

Please do tell

SRR yes but after that it seems 147lbs has been so staked it has made it difficult to get all the top fighters in the ring to see who still stands once the dust is clear. I have yet to see a fighter beat each and every top WW in their respective eras. Have you?

[Lance_Uppercut]

or at least # 2 behind SRR?

147 is as stacked as it's ever been. Suppose Cotto were to fight and beat DLH, Mosley, Floyd, Williams, Margarito, Cintron, Clotty and Collazo. I know this is a huge if but lets suppose it were to happen or interchange some names with Floyd or williams beating all those other guys.

I am not as knowledgable as some of you other guys in terms of history but I would think that would be an ATG 147 resume no?

That would be hard to ignore.

[Caper]

sure

Just busting your thunder sacs a little I had to deal with thousands of crying screaming women running down 42nd today so my compassion levels are a bit dry.

[Caper]

That would be hard to ignore.

:lol: :yep

[Slothrop]

Perhaps the best way to phrase it would be that Cotto could put himself in the conversation.

[1lehudson]

or at least # 2 behind SRR?

147 is as stacked as it's ever been. Suppose Cotto were to fight and beat DLH, Mosley, Floyd, Williams, Margarito, Cintron, Clotty and Collazo. I know this is a huge if but lets suppose it were to happen or interchange some names with Floyd or williams beating all those other guys.

I am not as knowledgable as some of you other guys in terms of history but I would think that would be an ATG 147 resume no?Keep in mind that the guy that is number 2 on most lists beat hearns, Duran, Hagler, Benitez dispite missing alot of his prime with the eye injury. Keep in mind that most of that work was done before Ray was 26 years old.

You would even have a hard time making a strong case for number three depending on were you have Armstrong, who I think is p4p number 2 all times, but not as high at welterweight.

[Martini643]

or at least # 2 behind SRR?

147 is as stacked as it's ever been. Suppose Cotto were to fight and beat DLH, Mosley, Floyd, Williams, Margarito, Cintron, Clotty and Collazo. I know this is a huge if but lets suppose it were to happen or interchange some names with Floyd or williams beating all those other guys.

I am not as knowledgable as some of you other guys in terms of history but I would think that would be an ATG 147 resume no?


The only fighters that you mentioned i think who would have a chance as an ATG not the best of all time but a top 5 welterweight would be Cotto or Mayweather. Mosley is on his way out of the sport in another year or 2 and can't possibly beat all those you mentioned. Cintron,Collazo are good fighters but I don't see an ATG in either of them. Paul Williams I think is a good fighter but I think he will be picked apart by Mayweather or Cotto.

[1lehudson]

The only fighters that you mentioned i think who would have a chance as an ATG not the best of all time but a top 5 welterweight would be Cotto or Mayweather. Mosley is on his way out of the sport in another year or 2 and can't possibly beat all those you mentioned. Cintron,Collazo are good fighters but I don't see an ATG in either of them. Paul Williams I think is a good fighter but I think he will be picked apart by Mayweather or Cotto.Oh I think that Shane right now has a better shot then both Floyd and Cotto. Keep in mind he already has some really big wins, and all it would take of him would be beatting Floyd and Cotton and maybe one other Cintron or Williams. that would put him about as high as any of these fighters can get.

And the reason that I think that the limit is capped is because some of there guys will be exposed as not great fighters. You have to beat all-timers to be all-timers. While i think that these guys are all very good fighters none of them are great fighters. Robinson and leonard beat all time greats top 20 fighters.

[CASH_718]

If one person clears out the whole division I'd put them #2 behind SRR for sure.

[thunder06]

Just busting your thunder sacs a little I had to deal with thousands of crying screaming women running down 42nd today so my compassion levels are a bit dry.

what do u mean?

[thunder06]

Just busting your thunder sacs a little I had to deal with thousands of crying screaming women running down 42nd today so my compassion levels are a bit dry.

why?

[Alo2006]

or at least # 2 behind SRR?

147 is as stacked as it's ever been. Suppose Cotto were to fight and beat DLH, Mosley, Floyd, Williams, Margarito, Cintron, Clotty and Collazo. I know this is a huge if but lets suppose it were to happen or interchange some names with Floyd or williams beating all those other guys.

I am not as knowledgable as some of you other guys in terms of history but I would think that would be an ATG 147 resume no?


If he could I would make him side by side with SRR, but that's not going to happen :D

[DaveTheWave]

Please do tell

SRR yes but after that it seems 147lbs has been so staked it has made it difficult to get all the top fighters in the ring to see who still stands once the dust is clear. I have yet to see a fighter beat each and every top WW in their respective eras. Have you?

I assume now that you aren't familiar with Ray Robinson.... Also much tougher division back then. Better schooling, better fighters, tougher guys. And yes, can you imagine Leonard in this division? Hearns? Please-

[thewoo]

why?

There was an explosion in the city yesterday

[Caper]

I assume now that you aren't familiar with Ray Robinson.... Also much tougher division back then. Better schooling, better fighters, tougher guys. And yes, can you imagine Leonard in this division? Hearns? Please-

Again.....please do tell

I love how you automatically assume the role of boxing historian/expert without even asking for details.

You still have not answered my previous question, I hold SRR at the top of the list but that can even be questioned because its all a matter of opinion. Ray fought the likes of Armstrong, Lamotta and Kid Gavlin in or around the WW division obviously three ATG's but outside of the fighters mentioned his WW opposition was mostly full of hard nose old school bangers. Hearns, Leonard, Benitez, Duran all incerdible fighters but the thread starter asked if a current WW was to beat Mosely, PBF, Williams, Cintron, Cotto, Collazo, DLH, Clottey, Margo....the list goes on and on without losing could they be considered one of the top WW's ever, yes is the answer. Leonard is close but he lost to Duran so that would take him out of the hypothetical scenerio the author gave us (the fighter would have to go undefeated against the top teir).....

Saying fighters around SRR's time where better fighters with better schooling as well as being built tougher is a matter of opinion not fact. You sound completely bitter how is it that you can gauge the level of toughness in a fighter, have you fought them or any of the men they fought????? Is it me or have fighters actually improved in terms of technique and skill....evolution my friend look the word up.

A wise man once told me "never assume" so being the nice guy that I am I will also pass on the same knowlege "never assume" :smoke

[SugarRay]

No. The competition isn't there to warrant a top 5. None of these guys would beat SRR, Leonard, or Hearns. Then you they will have to contend with the likes of Whitaker, Duran, etc...

[Caper]

No. The competition isn't there to warrant a top 5. None of these guys would beat SRR, Leonard, or Hearns. Then you they will have to cotend with the likes of Whitaker, Duran, etc...

Again you guys need to read the first post on the thread, its asking if a WW was to defeat a strong list of all the top tier fighters in the division, Leonard and Hearns both lost at least once against another top WW when they fought.

Look at the list, to go undefeated against that list must ******t top 5 ATG at WW. If you think otherwise then you are chosing to neglect not only the level of talent in the division but the amount of fighters with champion traits.

Again I'm not comparing any of todays WW's to the likes of Duran, Hearns, SRL, SRR or even armstrong. But you must look at this objectively.......

[Brickhaus]

If one person clears out the whole division I'd put them #2 behind SRR for sure.

:yep

If they then proceed to move up and defeat some middleweight and light heavyweight champions, then we can start talking ATG though. I just don't see that part of it happening.

[Caper]

:yep

If they then proceed to move up and defeat some middleweight and light heavyweight champions, then we can start talking ATG though. I just don't see that part of it happening.

That's why SRR stay's up top. :yep

[codeman99998]

Oh I think that Shane right now has a better shot then both Floyd and Cotto. Keep in mind he already has some really big wins, and all it would take of him would be beatting Floyd and Cotton and maybe one other Cintron or Williams. that would put him about as high as any of these fighters can get.

And the reason that I think that the limit is capped is because some of there guys will be exposed as not great fighters. You have to beat all-timers to be all-timers. While i think that these guys are all very good fighters none of them are great fighters. Robinson and leonard beat all time greats top 20 fighters.

Nah, Mosley doesn't really have a chance. He hasn't done enough in his career up to this point. He beat DLH twice, but only once convincingly. He beat Vargas after every other important fighter had already beat him. He lost twice to Vernon Forrest and Winky Wright, and that is a huge mark. The best in history don't lose their rematches.

[codeman99998]

Every young WW has a chance with the division as it stands now. Hatton, Mosley, Cotto, Cintron, Williams would like, absolutely cement Floyd in the top 5 WW of all time, I think. On the same hand, if Cotto beat Mosley, Floyd, Williams, etc. his stock would rise meteorically in the all time charts. The division is so strong right now that clearing it out means true greatness.

Unfortunately, it's far more likely that one fighter beats 1 or 2 of the others, and another fighter beats 1 or 2 others, and those two winners clash. Beating the guy that beat the guy is less impressive than beating all the guys.

[Caper]

Every young WW has a chance with the division as it stands now. Hatton, Mosley, Cotto, Cintron, Williams would like, absolutely cement Floyd in the top 5 WW of all time, I think. On the same hand, if Cotto beat Mosley, Floyd, Williams, etc. his stock would rise meteorically in the all time charts. The division is so strong right now that clearing it out means true greatness.

Unfortunately, it's far more likely that one fighter beats 1 or 2 of the others, and another fighter beats 1 or 2 others, and those two winners clash. Beating the guy that beat the guy is less impressive than beating all the guys.

Exactly, its highly unlikely that any fighter actually beats all the top tier guys right now, but if they did you would have consider them a top 5 ATG in the WW division. Some people on here are so self asborded or caught up in there own golden era that they fail to realize the details of the thread. Thanks for making sense.

[1lehudson]

Nah, Mosley doesn't really have a chance. He hasn't done enough in his career up to this point. He beat DLH twice, but only once convincingly. He beat Vargas after every other important fighter had already beat him. He lost twice to Vernon Forrest and Winky Wright, and that is a huge mark. The best in history don't lose their rematches.:huh

[SugarRay]

Again you guys need to read the first post on the thread, its asking if a WW was to defeat a strong list of all the top tier fighters in the division, Leonard and Hearns both lost at least once against another top WW when they fought.

Look at the list, to go undefeated against that list must ******t top 5 ATG at WW. If you think otherwise then you are chosing to neglect not only the level of talent in the division but the amount of fighters with champion traits.

Again I'm not comparing any of todays WW's to the likes of Duran, Hearns, SRL, SRR or even armstrong. But you must look at this objectively.......

Yeah, you need to read my post again. The list isn't strong enough to warrant a top 5. In the 90s you had dela Hoya, Trinidad, Whitaker, Mosley, etc..., which is better than that list. But, the current list would still fall short by just a whisker unless of course one of them truly dominates all the others, which I don't see happening. Whilst Leonard and Hearns might have lost I would still favour them over any of these guys. They were fighting legitimate ATGs.

[sues2nd]

Not a chance. We've seen the best. It won't get better.

Pretty narrowminded approach to life ya got there!!!

Im sure people said the same before Jordan came along. And Tiger. And Federor. And Clemens. And Gretsky. And....

You get my point.

Its kinda hard for the 147 guys to have THAT good of a career. Id say they would have to prove themselves against the rest of the cream of the crop so to say....and by prove I mean, show they are better than the rest by leaps and bounds.

Then, they would have to do a few memorable things....record defenses...unify the titles....have a few wars (just for the brawler fans out there)...etc.

So to answer the original question...yes, they could. But will one of them....NO....not very likely.

[1lehudson]

Pretty narrowminded approach to life ya got there!!!

Im sure people said the same before Jordan came along. And Tiger. And Federor. And Clemens. And Gretsky. And....

You get my point.

Its kinda hard for the 147 guys to have THAT good of a career. Id say they would have to prove themselves against the rest of the cream of the crop so to say....and by prove I mean, show they are better than the rest by leaps and bounds.

Then, they would have to do a few memorable things....record defenses...unify the titles....have a few wars (just for the brawler fans out there)...etc.

So to answer the original question...yes, they could. But will one of them....NO....not very likely.You have to have what is seen as an equally great counterpart, or just be totally dominate. Cotto has been far from that with limited and faded fighter, stepping up to the elite level of TODAYS fighter will be a problem for Cotto I think.

Jordan had Magic and Bird, Tiger is totally dominate, Federor has Nadal, and he has been dominate. Gretsky...Well it is simpley the GREAT ONE as far as hockey goes. But I couldnt see any of these fighters reaching that status. Top 10 I could see but top 3 :bart .

[sues2nd]

You have to have what is seen as an equally great counterpart, or just be totally dominate. Cotto has been far from that with limited and faded fighter, stepping up to the elite level of TODAYS fighter will be a problem for Cotto I think.

Jordan had Magic and Bird, Tiger is totally dominate, Federor has Nadal, and he has been dominate. Gretsky...Well it is simpley the GREAT ONE as far as hockey goes. But I couldnt see any of these fighters reaching that status. Top 10 I could see but top 3 :bart .

Well my point with the other stars was...at one point, most people believed you could get no better.

Fans of Wilt contended for years that Jordan was no where near the greatest player of all time.

Fans of Borg contended that Federor could never be as good.

Fans of Howe said that about Gretsky.

Fans of Nicklaus said it about Tiger.

Point is, its a narrowminded veiw to believe that NOONE will ever be better.

[1lehudson]

Well my point with the other stars was...at one point, most people believed you could get no better.

Fans of Wilt contended for years that Jordan was no where near the greatest player of all time.

Fans of Borg contended that Federor could never be as good.

Fans of Howe said that about Gretsky.

Fans of Nicklaus said it about Tiger.

Point is, its a narrowminded veiw to believe that NOONE will ever be better.Im not saying that we will never have a fighter that will push SRR for p4p or even best Welterweight. What Im saying is those guys arent it. By the same point in Ray's career that Cotto is in now, Ray had already beat 5 all time great fighters, Cotto has even beat a world champion yet, every title he has won has been a vacate title. Cotto is yet to even be a dog in a fight. Floyd and Williams have at least done that.

[VIP]

None of today's fighters can be greater than Sugar Ray, that much I know. The welterweights today don't even matchup well head to head with the likes of Leonard and Hearns.

To be considered one of the greats you have to have the accomplishments/achievements and it's harder to do nowadays because the best do not always fight the best and also an elite fighter today will fight at most 4 times a year sometimes less. In a head to head sense they don't cut it either.

[DaveTheWave]

Pretty narrowminded approach to life ya got there!!!

Im sure people said the same before Jordan came along. And Tiger. And Federor. And Clemens. And Gretsky. And....

You get my point.

Its kinda hard for the 147 guys to have THAT good of a career. Id say they would have to prove themselves against the rest of the cream of the crop so to say....and by prove I mean, show they are better than the rest by leaps and bounds.

Then, they would have to do a few memorable things....record defenses...unify the titles....have a few wars (just for the brawler fans out there)...etc.

So to answer the original question...yes, they could. But will one of them....NO....not very likely.

Exactly what I mean- A fighter has 40 fights and whoa! He's got alot of fights!- Fighters back then fought alot and they fought other good fighters- they didn't pad their record against mainly tomato cans... Will we see 21 defenses of the heavyweight crown? Possible, but so unlikely it borders on impossible.
CAPER-- And no, the fighters in today's crop are not on the same level as the guys in the 50's. If you had seen any fights from back then you would agree. So if one fighter from that list rises above all others and dominates the division, he will be looked at a s one of the best , but still won't replace the ones in the top 10 or even 15... The accomplishments are too many to overcome.

[Caper]

Exactly what I mean- A fighter has 40 fights and whoa! He's got alot of fights!- Fighters back then fought alot and they fought other good fighters- they didn't pad their record against mainly tomato cans... Will we see 21 defenses of the heavyweight crown? Possible, but so unlikely it borders on impossible.
CAPER-- And no, the fighters in today's crop are not on the same level as the guys in the 50's. If you had seen any fights from back then you would agree. So if one fighter from that list rises above all others and dominates the division, he will be looked at a s one of the best , but still won't replace the ones in the top 10 or even 15... The accomplishments are too many to overcome.


Dave I never said one of today's welter weights can replace an ATG from the 50's or even the 80's I only said they would be considered a Top 5 WW....just like the quality of fighters where made of a different breed in the 50's you also must remember there are much more physically gifted fighters roaming the rings these days (take a look at the NBA). I get your point and understand exactly what your trying to say but I find it hard to think that you would'nt be able to give the proper amount of accolades for a WW of today's era taking out each and every solid contender available, that kind of accomplishment cannot go ignored.

[Alo2006]

Again.....please do tell

I love how you automatically assume the role of boxing historian/expert without even asking for details.

You still have not answered my previous question, I hold SRR at the top of the list but that can even be questioned because its all a matter of opinion. Ray fought the likes of Armstrong, Lamotta and Kid Gavlin in or around the WW division obviously three ATG's but outside of the fighters mentioned his WW opposition was mostly full of hard nose old school bangers. Hearns, Leonard, Benitez, Duran all incerdible fighters but the thread starter asked if a current WW was to beat Mosely, PBF, Williams, Cintron, Cotto, Collazo, DLH, Clottey, Margo....the list goes on and on without losing could they be considered one of the top WW's ever, yes is the answer. Leonard is close but he lost to Duran so that would take him out of the hypothetical scenerio the author gave us (the fighter would have to go undefeated against the top teir).....

Saying fighters around SRR's time where better fighters with better schooling as well as being built tougher is a matter of opinion not fact. You sound completely bitter how is it that you can gauge the level of toughness in a fighter, have you fought them or any of the men they fought????? Is it me or have fighters actually improved in terms of technique and skill....evolution my friend look the word up.

A wise man once told me "never assume" so being the nice guy that I am I will also pass on the same knowlege "never assume" :smoke

Well said :good

[DonPrestige]

I think this is the type of question that will only get proper and unbiased answer about 10+ years from now.

People never rate an athlete or anybody in the current time favourably against past stars especially in boxing. You have to wait till a career is over and the dust is settled before biases begin to die down especially as we have so much coverage compared to the past that it does kind of water down skills and records.

People saying its impossible are not thinking straight. Who knows what will happen in the next 5 years at WW. Say boxers, promoters and the alphabet stooges get their act together and the best fights are made . Then boxers can distinguish themselves and be seen as great fighters and in turn beat great fighters, their stock rises considerably.

Its actually retarded and simple minded to rule it out.

[achillesthegreat]

Potentially yes I do believe they can.

Take Floyd, if he wants he can go an SRL like run and fight Mosley, Margo, Williams, Cotto, Cintron, Hatton, Quartey, DLH rematch, even Forrest at 147. BANG he is probably the best ever with that.

Will he do it? No, and that is why he won't be remembered like Ray Leonard who fought Benitez, Duran x2 and Hearns at 147.

What I said for Floyd applies to all of them, except Mosley, Margo and DLH. Truth be told, if they beat everyone up, they would be highly regarded but the fighters who they beat would be considered not as good. The undefeated fighters like Cotto, Williams, Hatton, Floyd etc still have that spark about them. Maybe even Cintron cos an early loss or avenged loss isn't always bad.