Would a prime Peter Jackson beat Jeffries?

[mcvey]

Prime for prime ,not the faded hulk that Johnson toyed with , and not the alcoholic sick remnant that Jeffries put away.Jackson a man with Corbetts skills but bigger and harder hitting . Jeffries the Iron Man,218 of bone and muscle ,who would prevail ?

[amhlilhaus]

what a silly question! prime peter jackson beats every white fighter who ever lived, even with a baseball bat in their hands.

[McGrain]

I'm sorry to do it to you buddy, but I need a ruleset to make a pick.

[mcvey]

I'm sorry to do it to you buddy, but I need a ruleset to make a pick.
Fair enough 25 rds,with Tom Siler as referee.1900's attitude to scoring.

[McGrain]

Fair enough 25 rds,with Tom Siler as referee.1900's attitude to scoring.

Over 25...i'm going to go for Jeffries to out-monster Jackson down the straight.

[janitor]

It is imposible to say given the uncertainties surronding Jackson.

What I will say is that prime Peter Jackson would have been the best oponent Jeffries shared a ring with except perhaps Jack Johnson. A Jeffries win is by no means a given.

[Boilermaker]

Prime Peter Jackson may have been good enough to beat Jeffries or anyone else. I dont think it is quite true to say that he was a bigger version of corbett. It should not be forgotten that they did fight to a draw and while i know jackson may have had some excuses, it is obvious that Corbett and he were very close and similar in ability. I get the opinion that Corbett was more elusive and Jackson hit a fair bit harder. It also should not be forgotten that prime Jackson was not as invincible as many think. The Goddard fight in particular seems to have been a huge struggle with Goddard causing damage and knocking Jackson down, something noone ever did to a prime Jeffries. If i were to guess at a result over 20 rounds, i would think that Jeffries would win a close points decision. I also think that if they fought 5 times, Jeffries would score at least one knock out, but i also think that Jackson would score at least one and maybe two points decisions. Still, Peter Jackson was definitely an all time great and Jim Corbett should have definitely defended his title against him first up, imo.

[Mendoza]

Prime for prime ,not the faded hulk that Johnson toyed with , and not the alcoholic sick remnant that Jeffries put away.Jackson a man with Corbetts skills but bigger and harder hitting . Jeffries the Iron Man,218 of bone and muscle ,who would prevail ?

Not likely. Jackson had his hands full with Joe Goddard, who was something of a poor man's Jeffries.

Jackson was not like Corbett in style. Corbett was quicker, and harder to hit. Jackson style was that of a skilled boxer puncher.The speed, skills and a solid punch were there, but boxer-punchers in general don't have great defense because they focus on offense. As far as I can tell Jackson didn't have an top level chin.

[Lobotomy]

I believe that if a prime version of Jeffries was facing Jackson on that barge in San Francisco, instead of Corbett, that the Prince would have eventually succumbed in a fight to the finish.

Jackson is widely reported to have collapsed after those 61 rounds were contested (having entered that affair with a cold), and this despite the fact that his gloves had left the same imprints on Gentleman Jim's torso that Corbett's had left on his head. (My suspicion is that Corbett would have been judged the winner after 61 rounds, as the head is a more challenging target than the body to hit.)

Corbett was a fitness fanatic who was immensely proud of his discipline and conditioning. But when he was training for Fitzsimmons with Jeff as a sparring mate and exercise partner, the Boilermaker continually frustrated the reigning champion with his athletic superiority. No matter how fast Corbett sprinted down the railroad tracks during stops, Jeff ran faster. No matter how long a run Corbett undertook, Jeffries outlasted him. Everything Corbett could do, Jeff could do better, except box.

Given a 15 to 25 round distance, Peter Jackson outboxes Jeffries cleanly, just as a past prime Corbett did over 20. But if we are looking at a peak for peak fight to the finish between a healthy Jackson (no head cold or other illness) and a healthy Jeffries (not hindered by an impaired left as he was for the Sharkey rematch), then Jackson would be the one to collapse first in such a contest of endurance rather than
skill. Anyhow, that's my take on it.

As I've repeatedly stated, I favor the 15 round limit, because skill and effort become decisive factors in establishing who the superior gladiator proves to be. If the 15 round distance had been implemented for Willard/Johnson, then Lil' Artha' would not have dropped the title to a lesser adversary.

[mcvey]

Corbett was also 20 to 30 lbs lighter I never suggested that Jackson fought like Corbett ,I said he had skills on a par,he was heavier and hit harder fought prime Corbett on level terms,so I think he has a reasonable chance here.Jackson was stopped once in his early years when about 22 and when a shell of his former self,not a chin of china.Goddard was an in and outer but he did ko Choynsky twice and also Maher.

[mcvey]

I believe that if a prime version of Jeffries was facing Jackson on that barge in San Francisco, instead of Corbett, that the Prince would have eventually succumbed in a fight to the finish.

Jackson is widely reported to have collapsed after those 61 rounds were contested (having entered that affair with a cold), and this despite the fact that his gloves had left the same imprints on Gentleman Jim's torso that Corbett's had left on his head. (My suspicion is that Corbett would have been judged the winner after 61 rounds, as the head is a more challenging target than the body to hit.)

Corbett was a fitness fanatic who was immensely proud of his discipline and conditioning. But when he was training for Fitzsimmons with Jeff as a sparring mate and exercise partner, the Boilermaker continually frustrated the reigning champion with his athletic superiority. No matter how fast Corbett sprinted down the railroad tracks during stops, Jeff ran faster. No matter how long a run Corbett undertook, Jeffries outlasted him. Everything Corbett could do, Jeff could do better, except box.

Given a 15 to 25 round distance, Peter Jackson outboxes Jeffries cleanly, just as a past prime Corbett did over 20. But if we are looking at a peak for peak fight to the finish between a healthy Jackson (no head cold or other illness) and a healthy Jeffries (not hindered by an impaired left as he was for the Sharkey rematch), then Jackson would be the one to collapse first in such a contest of endurance rather than
skill. Anyhow, that's my take on it.

As I've repeatedly stated, I favor the 15 round limit, because skill and effort become decisive factors in establishing who the superior gladiator proves to be. If the 15 round distance had been implemented for Willard/Johnson, then Lil' Artha' would not have dropped the title to a lesser adversary.
This fight is over 25 rds as both men fought that distance,I thought it would be equally fair.

[Lobotomy]

This fight is over 25 rds as both men fought that distance,I thought it would be equally fair.I'll tentatively go with Peter Jackson by 25 round UD then.

[janitor]

It should not be forgotten that they did fight to a draw and while i know jackson may have had some excuses, it is obvious that Corbett and he were very close and similar in ability.

Here I disagree.

A past prime and injured Jackson fought Corbett to a draw and Corbett was the harder pressed of the two fighters throughout.

Jackson had an injured ankle which restricted his mobility and perhaps his ability to throw punches. A healthy Jackson might just have dismantled Corbett.

I think it is possible that Jackson was a level above Corbett and perhaps even on the same level as Jeffries.

[mcvey]

Here I disagree.

A past prime and injured Jackson fought Corbett to a draw and Corbett was the harder pressed of the two fighters throughout.

Jackson had an injured ankle which restricted his mobility and perhaps his ability to throw punches. A healthy Jackson might just have dismantled Corbett.

I think it is possible that Jackson was a level above Corbett and perhaps even on the same level as Jeffries.
There are some that might consider prime Corbett a better man than Jeffries.I think it is entirely possible that Jackson would have beaten the older Sullivan as convincingly as Corbett ,and maybe not by exhaustion but by clean ko.Jeffries beat everyone he faced and apart from Johnson,I reallly don't thionk there was anyone out there with a realistic chance against him that he didnt meet,his resume would have been more impressive if his best victories were over younger Champs,but that is the nature of the game.Perhaps wins over Martin and Childs instead of Finnegan and Munroe would have cemented Jeffries claims to greatness,but he was fighting experienced top notchers at an early stage in his career.

[Seamus]

Not likely. Jackson had his hands full with Joe Goddard, who was something of a poor man's Jeffries.

Jackson was not like Corbett in style. Corbett was quicker, and harder to hit. Jackson style was that of a skilled boxer puncher.The speed, skills and a solid punch were there, but boxer-punchers in general don't have great defense because they focus on offense. As far as I can tell Jackson didn't have an top level chin.

Wow. My thoughts exactly. I don't even think this fight would be that close.

[mcvey]

Wow. My thoughts exactly. I don't even think this fight would be that close.
On what do you base Jackson's lack of chin? The fact that he was stopped in his 10 th fight by the Australian Heavyweight Champuion,or the fact that Jeffries stopped him when he was 37 and had TB and was a hopeless alcoholic,he was only dropped one other time by Goddard who kod Choynsky twice and also Peter Maher.

[janitor]

On what do you base Jackson's lack of chin? The fact that he was stopped in his 10 th fight by the Australian Heavyweight Champuion,or the fact that Jeffries stopped him when he was 37 and had TB and was a hopeless alcoholic,he was only dropped one other time by Goddard who kod Choynsky twice and also Peter Maher.

Put it this way.

Either Jacksons chin was prety darn good or his defence was off the scale.

[mcvey]

Both the klitschko brothers would mash jackson.
The Klitschkos would have trouble mashing potatoes!

[Seamus]

On what do you base Jackson's lack of chin? The fact that he was stopped in his 10 th fight by the Australian Heavyweight Champuion,or the fact that Jeffries stopped him when he was 37 and had TB and was a hopeless alcoholic,he was only dropped one other time by Goddard who kod Choynsky twice and also Peter Maher.

Sorry. I wrote that at work and did not have enough time to respond. I see no evidence that Jackson had a bad chin, just that big, strong punchers seem to be the type that gave him problems. Moreso, we have much less non-anecdotal evidence of Jackson's career than of Jeffries'. A lot of no decisions, a lot of repeat and inexperienced opponents, some wobbly, documented performances against the bigger guys, a very big win against Slavin, a draw against Corbett and a loss when he was depleted against Jeffries. Just no enough to draw drastic conclusions. Also, in regards to Goddard, I have read he KD'd Jackson several times. And in regards to Maher, it was a right of passage to knock him out in those days, so no great accomplishment.

In regards to Jeffries, I probably rate him as less impressive than most but that may be another topic.

[mcvey]

Sorry. I wrote that at work and did not have enough time to respond. I see no evidence that Jackson had a bad chin, just that big, strong punchers seem to be the type that gave him problems. Moreso, we have much less non-anecdotal evidence of Jackson's career than of Jeffries'. A lot of no decisions, a lot of repeat and inexperienced opponents, some wobbly, documented performances against the bigger guys, a very big win against Slavin, a draw against Corbett and a loss when he was depleted against Jeffries. Just no enough to draw drastic conclusions. Also, in regards to Goddard, I have read he KD'd Jackson several times. And in regards to Maher, it was a right of passage to knock him out in those days, so no great accomplishment.

In regards to Jeffries, I probably rate him as less impressive than most but that may be another topic.
Jackson was knocked down the same amount of times as Ali,anyone think his chin is dodgy?

[mcvey]

Because when i think featherfisted, i think the klitschko brothers.
No thats glass jaws and lack of intestines your'e thinking of.

[Mendoza]

Jackson was knocked down the same amount of times as Ali,anyone think his chin is dodgy?

I think Jackson went down more. No way Jackson had a chin like Ali did. I don't think Jackson's chin was poor, but I don't think it was great either. Jackson was built for speed, and those types usualy do not have good chins.

Ali was also built for speed, but he had a pretty big neck, and frame to take a shot.

[Seamus]

Jackson was knocked down the same amount of times as Ali,anyone think his chin is dodgy?

Again, a proclamation that is difficult to assess. We know quite a bit of the conditions surrounding Ali's KD's and the quality of his opponents. We know far less about the same regarding Jackson. Thus, your statement is more speculation than informed analysis.

Nice try, though.

[mcvey]

Again, a proclamation that is difficult to assess. We know quite a bit of the conditions surrounding Ali's KD's and the quality of his opponents. We know far less about the same regarding Jackson. Thus, your statement is more speculation than informed analysis.

Nice try, though.
I was really responding to Mendoza's assertion that Jackson didnt have a top level chin,since he was only stopped twice once when 22 and again at 37 ,I would hazard a guess it was pretty durable,you are right though it is speculation on my part,sometimes the record books are all we have to go on,though there is a guy asking if anyone saw Jeffries fight ,I would take a chance and say any ringsiders at Jackson's contests are probably deceased.

[mcvey]

I think Jackson went down more. No way Jackson had a chin like Ali did. I don't think Jackson's chin was poor, but I don't think it was great either. Jackson was built for speed, and those types usualy do not have good chins.

Ali was also built for speed, but he had a pretty big neck, and frame to take a shot.
I didnt say Jackson's chin was as good as Ali's ,just drew attention to the fact he was only down a few times and stopped twice.Prime jackson at 6 1 1/2 was over 200 lbs, I dont know what his neck measured but he wasnt a slim Corbett type.

[janitor]

[quote=Seamus]Sorry. I wrote that at work and did not have enough time to respond. I see no evidence that Jackson had a bad chin, just that big, strong punchers seem to be the type that gave him problems. Moreso, we have much less non-anecdotal evidence of Jackson's career than of Jeffries'.

I will permit myself an observation.

Jacksons legacy perhaps suffers from the same problems as Sullivans. Records in his prime were incomplete even relative to the Jeffries era so many of his best wins are over unknown men with little surviving record who were none the less big names at the time.

As you say much of his legend is anecdotal but this is a rare case where the anecdotes might tell more than the record.

A lot of no decisions,

Went with the teritory in that period.

The laws and circumstances of the era dictated that many bouts were NDs or prearanged draws.

Also, in regards to Goddard, I have read he KD'd Jackson several times.

You read corectly. This was a bit of an off night for Jackson.


And in regards to Maher, it was a right of passage to knock him out in those days, so no great accomplishment.


Maher is a fighter who I think you sell short.

He was the Earnie Shavers of his era. He got knocked out by a couple of the Ron Standers but his power carried him into a fight for the vacant title against the Larry Holmes of the era (in this case Bob Fitzsimmons).

[Dempsey1238]

Put it this way.

Either Jacksons chin was prety darn good or his defence was off the scale.

Base on NO film of couse, I belive it was a little of both.

[janitor]

Base on NO film of couse, I belive it was a little of both.

My conclusion also, based on the same evidence.

[Bo Bo Olson]

Jackson also beats every black fighter who ever lived, too.

Right.....but he did have his problems with Corbett...

Jackson was a top contender of his day, but was kept from challenging champion John L. Sullivan because of his race. In response to a statement made of defending against a black man, Sullivan stated, "I will not fight a Negro. I never have and I never shall." Despite Sullivan's decision to not fight Jackson, another contender in James J. Corbett fought Jackson in an epic encounter in 1891. The two fought on even terms before a no contest was called after 61 rounds. Corbett would cgo on to defeat Sullivan for the title the following year.

I did not know he had the flue, and a twisted anckle here.
Nor he was dying of TB vs Jefferies.
I am on the earth to learn, amoung other things.

I think Jackson at prime would have been a good fight vs anyone, just like a Prime jefferies would have been a good fight vs anyone. Jefferies did not like the style that his trainer made him learn, let them beat up on you until they are tired...He at least got out of it with his moeny to buy a big farm.

I think really the main problem was Jackson did not have a rich enough gang of supporters and I do mean gang, to put up the side money for Sullivan. It was the side money and the bets from one gang or another of gamblers that made the fights happen back then.

[Seamus]

[QUOTE]

Maher is a fighter who I think you sell short.

He was the Earnie Shavers of his era. He got knocked out by a couple of the Ron Standers but his power carried him into a fight for the vacant title against the Larry Holmes of the era (in this case Bob Fitzsimmons).

I agree with all your points except this. Maher gets more credit than any evidence would suggest he deserves. He had a 1 in 5 chance of getting knocked out every time he entered the ring.

[janitor]

[quote=janitor]

I agree with all your points except this. Maher gets more credit than any evidence would suggest he deserves. He had a 1 in 5 chance of getting knocked out every time he entered the ring.

Bear in mind that the portion of Mahers career that survives is mostly his record against the best fighters of the division.

Honestly he was the Earnie Shavers of his era. If he fought a top name you knew that sombody was getting knocked out but didnt know who. His power was such that he was dangerous even to the best but he could still loose to third raters.

Obviously the fans followed his fights with considerable interest.

[markedwardscott]

Since Jeffries had trouble with over the hill Corbett, I think a prime Jackson could have taken Jeffries.