P4P Issue with Mijares

[NickBarker]

I know there are already a decent amount of Mijares threads out there, but the point I'm going to make didn't seem to fit into any of them immediately.

Upon reading the thread about Hatton being taken out Ring Magazine's Top 10 P4P list, I looked it over and wondered to myself the following: How is Mijares not significantly higher?

Here is the list once more:
1. Floyd Mayweather
2. Manny Pacquiao
3. Joe Calzaghe
4. Juan Manuel Marquez
5. Bernard Hopkins
6. Israel Vazquez
7. Miguel Cotto
8. Kelly Pavlik
9. Cristian Mijares
10. Rafael Marquez

It was certainly appropriate to remove Hatton from the Top 10. Where he belongs from 11-20 is the subject of another discussion.

Mijares certainly belongs ahead of R. Marquez who has lost his last two bouts, even if they were great and tightly contested. His defensive lapses downgrade him slightly even if he is a great offensive fighter. I don't believe he's chinny, but rather attribute a lot of his knockdowns and wobbles to Vazquez' great power and numerous, flush blows landed.

As much as I like Kelly Pavlik--he is one of my five favorite fighters--I feel he belongs on a lower stratum than Mijares P4P. This is especially true when you factor in Mijares' recent win over Munoz, which mitigates, in my opinion, Pavlik's recent impressive schedule. Pavlik doesn't match up with Mijares' foot and hand speed, his defense, and his variety of punches. I feel he has him outgunned in power and a close edge in workrate, which is hard to analyze given the contrast in styles.

Miguel Cotto, for me, is something of a push. I could go one way or another. I tend to side with Cotto's impressive resume and rapidly improved skillset fow now.

Israel Vazquez is a lot like Marquez for me. I think the closeness of their triology shows this. Like Marquez, he has serious defensive issues. Indeed, Marquez readily exploited this in the first bout. P4P H2H Mijares would be able to work off the jab all night. Vazquez' recent resume is pretty good with wins over Larios, Gonzalez, and two over Marquez. However, he is just not complete enough to warrant his ranking over Mijares.

Throw Bernard Hopkins off the goddamn list.

When I factor all this together, keeping Cotto ahead of him, I place Mijares at #6 on my P4P list (I don't necessarily agree with all the order of the Ring Top 4 + Cotto, but that's irrelevant for now).

I'd be curious to hear what you all think about this. If I'm missing something, please let me know.

[Arriba]

I think a lot of it has to do with his weight class. He'll never be ranked ahead of the Hopkins/Pavliks etc etc etc.

The ridiculous nature of his fights (oft times one sided fights, poor judging etc) don't help him either.

[dangerousity]

I dont see the fascination with Mijares, his division isnt particularly that strong although very solid. 3lbs separate Mijares & Rafael Marquez, at 118lb the fight wouldnt even be a contest. Rafael destroys him.

[PH|LLA]

1. PBF
2. Pac
3. Calz
4. JMM
5. Cotto
6. Wlad
7. Mosley
8. Vasquez
9. Hopkins
10. Rafa Marquez

rehashed

I would normally have Hopkins a little bit higher based on his last performance but considering that i expect him to degrade even more due to age, it is what it is.

[Amsterdam]

I dont see the fascination with Mijares, his division isnt particularly that strong although very solid. 3lbs separate Mijares & Rafael Marquez, at 118lb the fight wouldnt even be a contest. Rafael destroys him.

:yep:yep:yep:yep:yep

[Amsterdam]

1. PBF
2. Pac
3. Calz
4. JMM
5. Cotto
6. Calderon
7. Wlad
8. Mosley
9. Vasquez
10. Hopkins

I would normally have Hopkins a little bit higher based on his last performance but considering that i expect him both to degrade even more due to age, it is what it is.

I've no issue with this, other than Calderon, who's not performed near the level of Mijares in opposition or performance, being so high.

Take his recent fight with Cazares, Caldy was smaller, but Cazares is nothing special, it'd be the equivalent of Mijares struggling badly with Penalosa at 118.

I don't get the Calderon fascination, he's a great boxer, but he's nowhere near P4P top 10 and is declining recently at that, 33 is ancient for a fighter his size. His resume is horrible, there is hardly any real talent down there.

[dangerousity]

:yep:yep:yep:yep:yep

Laugh all you want, you know it makes sense. Mijares resides in a weight class where he significantly has a good height weight advanage over the other fighters. Put him up against an equally skilled guy around the same height and he gets destroyed. Rafa would knock him out inside 7.

[Sandmanl337]

It was certainly appropriate to remove Hatton from the Top 10. Where he belongs from 11-20 is the subject of another discussion.

Mijares certainly belongs ahead of R. Marquez who has lost his last two bouts, even if they were great and tightly contested. His defensive lapses downgrade him slightly even if he is a great offensive fighter. I don't believe he's chinny, but rather attribute a lot of his knockdowns and wobbles to Vazquez' great power and numerous, flush blows landed.

Throw Bernard Hopkins off the goddamn list.

I already removed Hatton from my list a while back..

Currently I have Mijares ranked at #11 right behind Kelly Pavlik who sits at #10.. I did have him ranked at #13, but his win over Munoz moved him up a few spots.. Defeating Montiel would probably shoot him into the top 10..

I kept Rafael right behind Israel who both sit at #7 & #8.. Rafael may have lost two straight fights, but he did beat Vazquez the first time and then came close to winning the third and most recent fight where the decision was kind of controversial..

I still have BHop ranked in the #10 but I don't really see him fighting anymore, so he could drop quick, especially with the people behind him winning..

[NickBarker]

I may have been too harsh with the "throw Hopkins off the goddamn list" thing. He did illustrate some impressive skill in the Calzaghe fight. However, I believe that Calzaghe has begun to decline. Regardless, I would rate Mijares higher than Hopkins, at this point.

[Amsterdam]

Laugh all you want, you know it makes sense. Mijares resides in a weight class where he significantly has a good height weight advanage over the other fighters. Put him up against an equally skilled guy around the same height and he gets destroyed. Rafa would knock him out inside 7.

Mijares is in a 3x better weight class than Calderon however, with Calderon not even facing the best guys in the division, rematching the average Cazares. If Cazares wins this time, does that make Cazares a top 15 p4p?:rofl

Now had Munoz beat Mijares, he'd have been without a doubt worthy of the top 15 P4P.

Mijares also holds no weight advantage, he weighs in very easily at 115 and fights around 122, as do most super flyweight's.

And I'm not sure Rafa wins at 118, seriously, what do you think Rafa has left? And anyway, Rafa was a massive 118, is a big 122, bigger than Vasquez, Rafa could easily move to 126 and fight some of the larger opponents in that class with no problem.

Mijares is a good sized 115, would be an average sized 118. Big difference.

[PH|LLA]

I've no issue with this, other than Calderon, who's not performed near the level of Mijares in opposition or performance, being so high.

Take his recent fight with Cazares, Caldy was smaller, but Cazares is nothing special, it'd be the equivalent of Mijares struggling badly with Penalosa at 118.

I don't get the Calderon fascination, he's a great boxer, but he's nowhere near P4P top 10 and is declining recently at that, 33 is ancient for a fighter his size. His resume is horrible, there is hardly any real talent down there.
tbh i thought Calderon looked like a kid in that fight. way outsized. But yea he struggled.

[Amsterdam]

tbh i thought Calderon looked like a kid in that fight. way outsized. But yea he struggled.

Definitley, it was a good win on size differences, but not an amazing win enough to drop him in the p4p top 10. Most people who rate him now have rarely even seen him fight, he's not top 10 p4p material, the divisions down there are really shallow.

minimum, his natural weight, is incredibly shallow, 108's a little better, but he's not even facing the top guys there.

I just don't see a case for him anything higher than lower top 20.

[NickBarker]

Pharaoh,

I think you've got a very interesting P4P list. I believe that Klitschko is consistently underrated by many boxing analysts given the fact that he is a heavyweight and his earlier defeats. However, his jab and straight right are both P4P top two or three in the game. Combine the power he has in both hands with his rather exceptional hand speed for a man his size and you have someone who warrants P4P consideration.

[dangerousity]

Mijares is in a 3x better weight class than Calderon however, with Calderon not even facing the best guys in the division, rematching the average Cazares. If Cazares wins this time, does that make Cazares a top 15 p4p?:rofl

Now had Munoz beat Mijares, he'd have been without a doubt worthy of the top 15 P4P.

Mijares also holds no weight advantage, he weighs in very easily at 115 and fights around 122, as do most super flyweight's.

And I'm not sure Rafa wins at 118, seriously, what do you think Rafa has left? And anyway, Rafa was a massive 118, is a big 122, bigger than Vasquez, Rafa could easily move to 126 and fight some of the larger opponents in that class with no problem.

Mijares is a good sized 115, would be an average sized 118. Big difference.

Mijares has a good reach and height advantage at 115. This guy is the same height as Ricky Hatton to put things into perspective. He always looks bigger than his opponents too, even if he weighs in easily.

p4p fighters should be able to hang with other p4p elites just 3lbs north of their starting fighting weight. Every fighter in the top 10 p4p list is believed to be able to hang with elites at weights above their starting weight. Cotto did it, so did Hopkins, so did Joe,so did PBF, Pac, JMM etc. This is Mijares first weight class yet most here would agree that he wouldnt be able to hang with a true elite fighter a weight above him. Heck, I doubt he could even beat Penalosa at 118 right now. Rafael Marquez went up to 122 and beat up on Izzy, a fellow elite...do you really think Mijares could go up to 118 and beat a prime Rafael there?

Oh I agree with Calderon. Top 15 p4p for consistency and solid wins but thats it, solid wins. No one outstanding in his resume. Definitely rate Mijares above him, Mijares has had the better opposition and looked more impressive to me.

[M.I.G.]

Mijares is impressive. He hasn't lost in 6 years. I would take hopkins off, put Cotto in his slot, and put Mijares at 7.

[Amsterdam]

Pharaoh,

I think you've got a very interesting P4P list. I believe that Klitschko is consistently underrated by many boxing analysts given the fact that he is a heavyweight and his earlier defeats. However, his jab and straight right are both P4P top two or three in the game. Combine the power he has in both hands with his rather exceptional hand speed for a man his size and you have someone who warrants P4P consideration.

On the same note, he's in a poor division and if he were adjusted to LHW even, Glen Johnson would paste him. If Glen Johnson were naturally 210 pounds, adjusted to HW, he'd paste Wlad all the same.

The division is poorly skilled.

[NickBarker]

Mijares has a good reach and height advantage at 115. This guy is the same height as Ricky Hatton to put things into perspective. He always looks bigger than his opponents too, even if he weighs in easily.

p4p fighters should be able to hang with other p4p elites just 3lbs north of their starting fighting weight. Every fighter in the top 10 p4p list is believed to be able to hang with elites at weights above their starting weight. Cotto did it, so did Hopkins, so did Joe,so did PBF, Pac, JMM etc. This is Mijares first weight class yet most here would agree that he wouldnt be able to hang with a true elite fighter a weight above him. Heck, I doubt he could even beat Penalosa at 118 right now. Rafael Marquez went up to 122 and beat up on Izzy, a fellow elite...do you really think Mijares could go up to 118 and beat a prime Rafael there?

Oh I agree with Calderon. Top 15 p4p for consistency and solid wins but thats it, solid wins. No one outstanding in his resume. Definitely rate Mijares above him, Mijares has had the better opposition and looked more impressive to me.

Where do you rate a prime 118 R. Marquez, though? That may not be a fair comparison to make. Also, all the guys you mention, other than Hopkins due to his age, are ahead of Mijares at this point on my list.

I'm also with Amsterdam in saying that Marquez is fairly big even at 122, but I think Vazquez is pretty large for that weight, as well.

[Amsterdam]

Mijares has a good reach and height advantage at 115. This guy is the same height as Ricky Hatton to put things into perspective. He always looks bigger than his opponents too, even if he weighs in easily.

p4p fighters should be able to hang with other p4p elites just 3lbs north of their starting fighting weight. Every fighter in the top 10 p4p list is believed to be able to hang with elites at weights above their starting weight. Cotto did it, so did Hopkins, so did Joe,so did PBF, Pac, JMM etc. This is Mijares first weight class yet most here would agree that he wouldnt be able to hang with a true elite fighter a weight above him. Heck, I doubt he could even beat Penalosa at 118 right now. Rafael Marquez went up to 122 and beat up on Izzy, a fellow elite...do you really think Mijares could go up to 118 and beat a prime Rafael there?

Oh I agree with Calderon. Top 15 p4p for consistency and solid wins but thats it, solid wins. No one outstanding in his resume. Definitely rate Mijares above him, Mijares has had the better opposition and looked more impressive to me.

He wouldn't lose to Penalosa, don't be ridiculous, goddamn. Penalosa and Mijares have a common opponent, Tomas Rojas, Penalosa struggled and Mijares dominated him.

Penalosa has never faced a boxer as talented as Mijares, Gonzalez is clearly not, even though he was outboxing Israel handily, which goes back to the original posters valid views on the matter. Vasquez and Marquez get overrated for the exciting wars, Marquez being much more effective at 118 and Vasquez having a bad style for him. Overall, Marquez is the better fighter and took less a beating in all 3 fights even though he lost the final 2, his chin being weaker than Israel's was the biggest factor.

I think Mijares has a very good chance against a prime Rafa, who's an ATG at 118, make no mistake.

[PH|LLA]

Pharaoh,

I think you've got a very interesting P4P list. I believe that Klitschko is consistently underrated by many boxing analysts given the fact that he is a heavyweight and his earlier defeats. However, his jab and straight right are both P4P top two or three in the game. Combine the power he has in both hands with his rather exceptional hand speed for a man his size and you have someone who warrants P4P consideration.
rating big heavyweights in p4p lists is tricky because the weight class has no limit.

Wlad often has a 20-30lb weight advantage on his opponents in the ring. In other divisions there are weight differences because of rehydration but they are not as significant.

I ranked Wlad in the top10 because he is dominant in his division but i am not too convinced. I still think Vitali was a better heavyweight then than Wlad is today.

[Arriba]

I wish I'd seen more of Calderon to accurately rate him. I don't have enough to fit him in my top 10.

My list is similar to Pharoah's with some differences here and there of course:

Mine's based off recent records (last 5 fights usually), overall skill and ability

1-FMJ
2-Calzaghe
3-Pac
4-JMM
5-Cotto
6-Izzy Vasquez
7- Mijares
8- Wlad
9- Pavlik
10- Mosley

[dangerousity]

He wouldn't lose to Penalosa, don't be ridiculous, goddamn. Penalosa and Mijares have a common opponent, Tomas Rojas, Penalosa struggled and Mijares dominated him.

Penalosa has never faced a boxer as talented as Mijares, Gonzalez is clearly not, even though he was outboxing Israel handily, which goes back to the original posters valid views on the matter. Vasquez and Marquez get overrated for the exciting wars, Marquez being much more effective at 118 and Vasquez having a bad style for him. Overall, Marquez is the better fighter and took less a beating in all 3 fights even though he lost the final 2, his chin being weaker than Israel's was the biggest factor.

I think Mijares has a very good chance against a prime Rafa, who's an ATG at 118, make no mistake.

Izzy abd Rafa deserves their hype, just look at their resumes. I agree it maybe unfair pitting up Mijares with a 118 atg but still, I doubt the fight would even be competitive.

About Penalosa common opponent with Mijares. On the same token, Donaire KO'd Maldonado where Mijares got a draw. Although I havent seen the fight so let me know if that was a robbery. IMO Penalosa has the skills, speed to take on Mijares + superior power.

[Amsterdam]

Izzy abd Rafa deserves their hype, just look at their resumes. I agree it maybe unfair pitting up Mijares with a 118 atg but still, I doubt the fight would even be competitive.

About Penalosa common opponent with Mijares. On the same token, Donaire KO'd Maldonado where Mijares got a draw. Although I havent seen the fight so let me know if that was a robbery. IMO Penalosa has the skills, speed to take on Mijares + superior power.

I haven't seen the Maldo fight, but I strongly doubt it was a fair decision judging by the way Mijares is not even given clear rounds by bullshit judges. SD's lately have been absurd, but do have the judges even scoring it for Mijares, one of the judges in the Navarro bout had it 115-113 Mijares, if he so saw fit to score 1 more round for Navarro, it'd have been a draw just like against Maldonado, so take that into consideration.

Also take into consideration that Maldo was a lot better in 2006, he really has been less since Darchy beat him down.

[tays001]

MOtiel will obliterate that bitch mijares and all of his hypemen

[CJLightweight]

I dont see the fascination with Mijares, his division isnt particularly that strong although very solid. 3lbs separate Mijares & Rafael Marquez, at 118lb the fight wouldnt even be a contest. Rafael destroys him.

what do you mean his division is not that strong?!:huh

115 division is one of the most deepest divisions in boxing with loads of talent. Mijares, montiel, munoz, castillo, darchinyan, arce, vasquez, navarro, banal, martinez, kirilov, plus you got donaire coming up

[dangerousity]

what do you mean his division is not that strong?!:huh

115 division is one of the most deepest divisions in boxing with loads of talent. Mijares, montiel, munoz, castillo, darchinyan, arce, vasquez, navarro, banal, martinez, kirilov, plus you got donaire coming up

Yes, like I said solid. Solid is the word. Those guys are B+ at best with the exception of Mijares himself who is more like an A- and Donaire who is borderline A-. I mean SFW-LW has Guzman, Campbell, JMM, Pac all of whom are A- to A+ fighters. WW has Floyd, Cotto, Shane all of whom are A to A+. LHW has Calzaghe, Hopkins & Dawson.

Sure Mijares could clean out 140lb but thats only one division. I think Donaire would be his defining fight.

[robpalmer135]

Haye should be in the top 10

[D-MAC]

My list at the moment:

PBF
Pac
Joe C
Cotto
J M Marquez
Vasquez
Pavlik
Mijares
Rafa Marquez
Calderon

If Mijares beats the man in my avatar he can leap two, maybe three places; similar jump if he defeats Donaire in good fashion.

[dangerousity]

My list at the moment:

PBF
Pac
Joe C
Cotto
J M Marquez
Vasquez
Pavlik
Mijares
Rafa Marquez
Calderon

If Mijares beats the man in my avatar he can leap two, maybe three places; similar jump if he defeats Donaire in good fashion.

Rafa came up in weight to beat a 122 great in Vasquez and the last fight could have gone either way. For that he should be above Pavlik ad Mijares. His overall resume is also more impressive than Mijares...I dont get where this ranking mijares above Rafael is coming from. Calderon doesnt belong in the top 10.

[Morrissey]

I dont see the fascination with Mijares, his division isnt particularly that strong although very solid. 3lbs separate Mijares & Rafael Marquez, at 118lb the fight wouldnt even be a contest. Rafael destroys him.

I'd love to see that fight.

[D-MAC]

Rafa came up in weight to beat a 122 great in Vasquez and the last fight could have gone either way. For that he should be above Pavlik ad Mijares. His overall resume is also more impressive than Mijares...I dont get where this ranking mijares above Rafael is coming from. Calderon doesnt belong in the top 10.


losing your last two fights, never mind how close they are, has to be brought into the equation. Don't get me wrong; I'm a huge Marquez fan, and had him winning the third fight with Vas, but the fact is that he didn't and therefore he has to drop a little. If I done the list on the premise of who I thought won particular fights, then brother Juan Manuel would be above Pac. I like to tow the official line.:D

[PH|LLA]

losing your last two fights, never mind how close they are, has to be brought into the equation. Don't get me wrong; I'm a huge Marquez fan, and had him winning the third fight with Vas, but the fact is that he didn't and therefore he has to drop a little. If I done the list on the premise of who I thought won particular fights, then brother Juan Manuel would be above Pac. I like to tow the official line.:D
I think you have to rank the fighters according to who you think is better, not only according to official results

[D-MAC]

I think you have to rank the fighters according to who you think is better, not only according to official results

I know, judging by the various "robbery polls" that are floating about, that there are a large number of people who thought JMM beat Pac last time out. However, when it comes to P4P lists i can't remember many that had JMM above Pac. I thought JMM won, and was pissed off because I also thought he won the first fight, but in the long run I still have to place him behind Pac because he has officially been given the "L".