Larry Holmes vs. Rocky Marciano

[OBCboxer]

If these two fought in their primes. Could Rocky Marciano carry Holmes' jockstrap?

[JohnThomas1]

Holmes via close decision. This fight would be a war, and very gruelling to say the least. Both are great 15 round fighters.

[prideofvbeach]

Mariciano handles him like Walcott. Late round KO.

[El Matador]

VERY difficult fight to predict, for a couple of reasons:

1. Marciano's punching power would no doubt hurt Larry Holmes, but could he land?

2. Marciano was very smart, in that, against taller fighters he would actually crouch LOWER, thus, how would Holmes respond? Would he become overconfident because of the size advantage?

3. How would Marciano handle the weight differential? Would that, added with Holmes spectacular boxing skill and jab, spell the end of the night right there?

4. Holmes could cut opponents with his right hand- ask Bonecrusher Smith. Considering Marciano's track record (Ezzard Charles, a fighter somewhat similiar to Holmes in style), would he be susceptible to cuts?

I'm going to pick Rocky Marciano via close, unpopular decision. I see the fight playing VERY similiar to Holmes-Shavers II. Marciano's STAMINA and Holmes HEART would equal a distance fight, and I would say Holmes would dominate early with his jab. But Marciano was no fool, he would respond by getting on the inside and working the body. After a vicious first ten rounds, I see Marciano dropping Holmes, at some point in the fight. By the late rounds, I see Marciano having a slight advantage on the cards, but I see Holmes rallying late, only to lose an unpopular decision.

[Dempsey1238]

I think Marciano WILL land on Holmes, as he did with Walcott, Charles and Moore. Now if Holmes takes the ten count is other matter, I think Marciano outworks Holmes for a UD in a close fight.

[Maxmomer]

Holmes wins.

[BlackWater]

Marciano by KO

[NickHudson]

There is 'another poster' on here called I am Legend who I think will agree with you:good

Marciano by KO

[NickHudson]

Whoooaa, there he goes - right on cue!

Marciano late knockout.

[mcvey]

If these two fought in their primes. Could Rocky Marciano carry Holmes' jockstrap?
Holmes by U DEc or late tko due to cuts.

[bumdujour]

i cant see this being close. holmes was far more skilled and stylistically this is a bad fight for rocky to start with.

holmes superior footspeed, handspeed, size and skilllevel wouuld be too much.

his jab would carve up rockys face all night and his right hand would catch rocky coming in.

somewhere between rounds seven and nine the doc would stop the fight.
unless of course rocky gets dq´d beforehand.

this would be a rude awakening for rocky when he meets a true modern great
heavyweight.

[Bummy Davis]

Marciano by KO....Holmes always had problems with the right hand and Marciano had the BEST ever and I dont want to hear size as an issue...Holmes was KO'd 2 times in the amatuers by 5"10 1/2 Nick Wells and 5"103/4 Tyson in the pro's dropped by Shavers and Snipes and they had no follow-up...Marciano WOULD have a follow-up...Holmes down early...takes lead but Rocky goes into 2nd gear for late stop...I would bet heavy on this

[zadfrak]

Agreed.

I really don't like the Holmes chances against the finishers. In this matchup, Rocky has a big edge in conditioning. Larry loved boxing from that pitchers mound and if the opponent lets him fight that way, he looks terrific. The pressure Marciano would apply for 15 rounds is about 300% more than he faced aginst the likes of Norton/Weaver/Witherspoon & those were tough bouts. The Marciano pressure and workrate exceeds that of Tyson as well & we know how Larry did in that one when he was the old guy facing pedigreed youth.

The bodywork would slow the Holmes footwork down and once Larry has to stand his ground and exchange, the 2 handed Marciano assault for 3 minutes per round would just be too much to absorb. And Marciano was the rare breed that could fight cut or busted up and not change 1 iota.

To me, this matchup is kind of like the mouse in the cage with the Python. He might live for awhile allright, but once the snake gets hungry, what can the mouse do in that cage?

[JohnThomas1]

To balance things out we have to rememebr it's not as if Marciano could not be outboxed, and Holmes heart, skill and durability IMO is better than those that troubled Marciano. Holmes, unlike many others is a great chance of taking his lead to the finish line. Larry also had a superb right uppercut which will present a threat of it's own. It's far from impossible that Holmes could present his own stoppage threat.

[joe the great]

Marciano had a great right hand. I think if Larry can survive that right he might win on points but I look for Marciano to stop him between round nine and thirteen.

[SuzieQ49]

whats underated about larry holmes is his heart. he had alot of it. bailed him out of trouble more than once. holmes had the heart of a mongolian warrior. But holmes in the ring from watching his fights lately, he really lacked ring smarts for a great fighter IMO. Thats a big difference between he and Ali. Whenever Holmes was hurt for some reason, he would start trying to BRAWL his way out of trouble which just wanst his thing. he would also get caught with stupid sucker right hand punches alot because he would either be lazy or just plain stupid and not bring his left back to his jab after jabbing. He would sometimes fight the other guys fight rather than his own.

[JohnThomas1]

whats underated about larry holmes is his heart. he had alot of it. bailed him out of trouble more than once. holmes had the heart of a mongolian warrior. But holmes in the ring from watching his fights lately, he really lacked ring smarts for a great fighter IMO. Thats a big difference between he and Ali. Whenever Holmes was hurt for some reason, he would start trying to BRAWL his way out of trouble which just wanst his thing.

Tho Holmes had this penchant to brawl, he won every one of these fights!!!! That's ring smarts, which you claimed he lacked. My reason for this comments is forged via the Shavers fight when he was dropped. He ran away from Earnie - and survived. Against lesser punchers in Witherspoon, Weaver, Snipes and co. he simply went at them and came up trumps every time.

Simply put - Holmes knew when to hold em, and when to fold em

:good

[Mendoza]

If these two fought in their primes. Could Rocky Marciano carry Holmes' jockstrap?

I think Holmes wins. Holmes was bigger, stronger, better, more durable, had great 15 round stamina, and more versitle than anyone Maricano fought. On top of that Holmes was a smart fighter. SuzieQ is mistaken if he thinks Holmes was not a smart fighter. Holmes knew when to throw each punch, and fought smart in general. The fighters who foguth Holmes all said he was pretty crafty. You could argue Holmes was the best puncher Marciano fought well.

Marciano could not count on Holmes being chinny like Charels or Walcott, or fading early after he built up a lead like Lastarza did.

Holmes via clean UD, late cuts stoppage, or late TKO. I do think Rocky would be in the fight though.

[Hatesrats]

Larry Holmes by UD (15 Rd Close Fight)
Multiple Knockdowns of both guys.

'77 Holmes jab would be too much for any Heavyweight of any era. Larry's legacy will forever be marred by having to fight in the shadow of a post Ali heavyweight division then coupled with the fact that Holmes would often say stupid shit that would make people either hate him or place a "Trying to be like Ali" sticker on him. his greatness is very evident now in this era when the heavyweight division needs a Larry Holmes.

Mike Tyson said it best after his win over Larry Holmes in '88
"I would not have stood a chance against a Prime Holmes"

I do belive he ment that.

[Ted Spoon]

This fight would be won on guts, both of which each man had a ton of.

Contrary to popular, but ultimately misinformed opinion, Holmes' boxing would suffer with the much smaller Mariano dipping down.

Larry would over reach and get caught in the tussle. His straight punches and uppercut would still be the key punches, but it would be war; Holmes slipping in thudding punches and Marciano ripping away at the available target.

This would be closely and hotly contested.

[SuzieQ49]

Mike Tyson said it best after his win over Larry Holmes in '88
"I would not have stood a chance against a Prime Holmes"

I do belive he ment that.


Thats actually laughable. Holmes would meet the same fate vs tyson even if he were in his prime, Holmes couldnt deal with ATG right handed punchers that were great finishers like louis and tyson

[Hatesrats]

Thats actually laughable. Holmes would meet the same fate vs tyson even if he were in his prime, Holmes couldnt deal with ATG right handed punchers that were great finishers like louis and tyson
I don't know about laughable, I don't see how you or anyone can avoid the fact that Larry Holmes at his best was 100X the fighter that Buster Douglas was in Japan 1990 (who defeated Mike), That & knowing that a fighter with a jab and a right hand + boxing ability always gave Tyson trouble & that's both a prime/After prison Tyson. (Ask Jesse Ferguson & Lennox Lewis)

The argument will be Tyson was unfocused against Douglas, But at his age in 1990 he had no reason to be PAST HIS PRIME.

Which ATG Right handed fighter finished a prime Easton Assassin?

[SuzieQ49]

I think Holmes wins. Holmes was bigger, stronger, better, more durable, had great 15 round stamina,.

Bigger? yes

Stronger? No. Marciano's whole style was built on strength, u ever see his back muscles? he has to be one of the strongest champs ever.

mor durable? thats highly questionable considering renaldo snipes and kevin issacc floored him

better? what is this supposed to mean? how is he "better"?


had great 15 round stamina yes, but not better than marcianos



and more versitle than anyone Maricano fought. .

who is more versatile than archie moore and jersey joe walcott?


The fighters who foguth Holmes all said he was pretty crafty.




The fighters who fought marciano said he was deceptivley hard to hit, yet you never take there word.


You could argue Holmes was the best puncher Marciano fought well.

Holmes was a sharp hitter, but no way he hit harder than Joe Louis, Walcott, and Layne

Marciano could not count on Holmes being chinny like Charels or Walcott, or fading early after he built up a lead like Lastarza did.


Holmes count not count on Marciano being tired like shavers, snipes, and weaver, bonecrusher got, or not finishing the job after decking him with a right hand like shavers and Snipes did.

Holmes via clean UD, late cuts stoppage, or late TKO. I do think Rocky would be in the fight though.

late TKO? rocky, one of the best championship round fighters of all time gets stopped late? how? holmes gonna get rocky tired? :lol: holmes was a great championship round fighter, but hes not stopping rocky late.


I wonder from your posts sometimes if you have never stepped foot in a boxing ring before

[janitor]

I think that Marciano would win this.

However I know that regardless of the outcome Holmes would wake up the following morning feeling like he had been run over by a train and piss blood.

He would certainly not be making any observations about jockstraps.

[Mendoza]

SuzieQ49 Bigger? yes

Stronger? No. Marciano's whole style was built on strength, u ever see his back muscles? he has to be one of the strongest champs ever.

mor durable? thats highly questionable considering renaldo snipes and kevin issacc floored him

better? what is this supposed to mean? how is he "better"?

had great 15 round stamina yes, but not better than marcianos

who is more versatile than archie moore and jersey joe walcott?

The fighters who fought marciano said he was deceptivley hard to hit, yet you never take there word.

Holmes was a sharp hitter, but no way he hit harder than Joe Louis, Walcott, and Layne

Holmes count not count on Marciano being tired like shavers, snipes, and weaver, bonecrusher got, or not finishing the job after decking him with a right hand like shavers and Snipes did.


I was saying Holmes was bigger, stronger, better, more durable, and more verstilte than ANYONE Marcino fought in the grand scheme of things. This is correct. Louis was old. Layne was not that good.

Shavers was not tried when he floored Holmes. Holmes moved like a prime Ali after the KD! Watch the fight sometime. Besides, Shavers was more dynamic than Rocky was, and hit harder. Rocky punchers chance vs Holmes is 5x less than it was vs Walcott. And Holmes will not tire like LAstarza did after 6 rounds of being in the lead, or die out like a slighty past his prime Charles did.



late TKO? rocky, one of the best championship round fighters of all time gets stopped late? how? holmes gonna get rocky tired? :lol: holmes was a great championship round fighter, but hes not stopping rocky late.


I wonder from your posts sometimes if you have never stepped foot in a boxing ring before


Rocky could be TKO'd late. On cuts or via being hit too much. In a different era, Rocky might lose the first Walcott fight, or the 2nd charles fight on cuts. Rocky also had a nasty gash vs Simmons, and that fight would have been stopped on cuts according to a book I read, but since Rocky was un-defeated, and Simmons was a journeyman, the fight went on.

Holmes jab would have a field day in this match up, and if Rocky tired to get low, Holmes had a very good uppercut. Yes-- I have been in the ring vs heavyweight's. I also post in the traning session sometimes. Those who are in the know in that section like my stuff. I suggest you don't call me out too much, but remain amused that you think I don't know what I am talking about.

[Mendoza]

Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
whats underated about larry holmes is his heart. he had alot of it. bailed him out of trouble more than once. holmes had the heart of a mongolian warrior. But holmes in the ring from watching his fights lately, he really lacked ring smarts for a great fighter IMO. Thats a big difference between he and Ali. Whenever Holmes was hurt for some reason, he would start trying to BRAWL his way out of trouble which just wanst his thing.



JohnThomas says:
Tho Holmes had this penchant to brawl, he won every one of these fights!!!! That's ring smarts, which you claimed he lacked. My reason for this comments is forged via the Shavers fight when he was dropped. He ran away from Earnie - and survived. Against lesser punchers in Witherspoon, Weaver, Snipes and co. he simply went at them and came up trumps every time.

Simply put - Holmes knew when to hold em, and when to fold em

:good


>>Well Said. I think the Holmes was not a smart fighter comment was a hoot. Almost as good as someone else saying Tyson win over Holmes was his best win.

[Nick Balsamo]

Pretty interesting matchup. One thing is sure... Holmes won't have a hard time finding Marciano with the jab. Can Marciano drain Holmes in a battle of conditionning ? Can he land often enough to put Holmes down ?

Holmes was a masterful boxer who had a pretty good combination of size\reach\speed\heart. He can control the action from the outside, at least for the first part of the fight. I don't think he would let Marciano get in close too much. Marciano would put Holmes in trouble in the last rounds I think but too little too late.

After a grueling 15 rounds battle, Holmes wins it 9-6.

[teeto]

Thats actually laughable. Holmes would meet the same fate vs tyson even if he were in his prime, Holmes couldnt deal with ATG right handed punchers that were great finishers like louis and tyson
Not laughable, though i agree Tyson may have beaten Holmes prime for prime

[teeto]

I'll pick Marciano here anyway, dno y, just like him here

[D-MAC]

jab jab jab jab jab jab jab jab jab jab jab jab jab..Holmes Ud. IMO

[SuzieQ49]

Can anyone name me one big fight holmes was in where he wasnt getting tagged by right hands? I rewatched bonecrusher, Weaver, Spoon, Norton, Shavers fights..right hand right hand right hand. I mean...DAMM! Holmes would have had his hands full with Coetzee, Page and Thomas.


Advantages for Marciano:

- Holmes habit of trying to brawl his way out of trouble

-Rockys big Suzie Q Right hand, Holmes big vunerability to overhand rights.

- Rockys ability outwork holmes in the trenches in the gruelling championship rounds

-Rockys low crouch weaving in and out of traffic will make holmes straight fast punches from a downward angle difficult to pinpoint.

- Rockys ferociouness when he has his man on the ropes



Holmes advantages

- Holmes left jab. It will cut rocky and land frequently, its one of the finest ever

- Holmes sharp fast 1-2s and right uppercuts will give rocky problems in long range and in close.

- Holmes size, he is a skilled great big man, which plays dividends against a smaller but ruthless slugger. Couple the size with his boxing skills and he will outbox the slugger on many occasions.


- Holmes amazing heart might be able to bail him out vs marciano in the championship rounds or if he gets in trouble

[Bummy Davis]

Can anyone name me one big fight holmes was in where he wasnt getting tagged by right hands? I rewatched bonecrusher, Weaver, Spoon, Norton, Shavers fights..right hand right hand right hand. I mean...DAMM! Holmes would have had his hands full with Coetzee, Page and Thomas.



Exactly it was no acident that he avoided those good right hand punchers

[JIm Broughton]

Larry by late round stoppage due to cuts. At 6'3" 215lbs with an 80" reach, one of the best jabs in the history of the division and plenty of mobility, one has to wonder how the hell Marciano even reaches Holmes let alone beat him. A prime Holmes was light years ahead of any opponent Rocky ever faced with all due respect to men like Walcott, Charles et al. Larry would use a similar strategy as he used in his first fight with Shavers which was near picture perfect against a potent puncher, jab and move, give angles, stay off the ropes, set up the right hand and be in great condition. Holmes would probably cut Rocky early and work on the cut(s) all night prompting the ref to call a halt somewhere around the 10th. Rocky would be game but outclassed. Too much size, speed and skill this time around.

[Bummy Davis]

Larry by late round stoppage due to cuts. At 6'3" 215lbs with an 80" reach, one of the best jabs in the history of the division and plenty of mobility, one has to wonder how the hell Marciano even reaches Holmes let alone beat him. A prime Holmes was light years ahead of any opponent Rocky ever faced with all due respect to men like Walcott, Charles et al. Larry would use a similar strategy as he used in his first fight with Shavers which was near picture perfect against a potent puncher, jab and move, give angles, stay off the ropes, set up the right hand and be in great condition. Holmes would probably cut Rocky early and work on the cut(s) all night prompting the ref to call a halt somewhere around the 10th. Rocky would be game but outclassed. Too much size, speed and skill this time around.





Size did not help Larry when he was taken out on a stretcher vs 5"10 Nick Wells 2 times for the nationals and it did not help him vs Tyson...even though he was old....How would all the good right hand punchers Larry avoided have done if Larry fought them? Shavers had no follow up and NO stamina....Marciano had both

[JohnThomas1]

Size did not help Larry when he was taken out on a stretcher vs 5"10 Nick Wells 2 times for the nationals and it did not help him vs Tyson...even though he was old

Thast's a bit harsh Bummy :lol:

[Seamus]

This fight would be won on guts, both of which each man had a ton of.

Contrary to popular, but ultimately misinformed opinion, Holmes' boxing would suffer with the much smaller Mariano dipping down.

Larry would over reach and get caught in the tussle. His straight punches and uppercut would still be the key punches, but it would be war; Holmes slipping in thudding punches and Marciano ripping away at the available target.

This would be closely and hotly contested.

Ted Spoon, the pompous ass that he can be, is exactly correct. As always.

God bless Ted Spoon.

[mcvey]

Exactly it was no acident that he avoided those good right hand punchers
Yet he fought the best right hand puncher of them all not once but twice.Shavers.Strange that.

[Bummy Davis]

Yet he fought the best right hand puncher of them all not once but twice.Shavers.Strange that.

I watched Shavers and he could punch but he did not have a multitude of right hand punches. like Marciano..I have seen him against Stander,Stallings,Quarry,RondonLyle,Cobb(who did not miss a shot) and I just feel his lack of stamina and solid chin puts him in a class of a puncher but lacking in areas, like Bob Satterfeild. He did drop Holmes and KO Norton but Norton was Ko'd by every puncher with a pulse and Holmes was dropped and Ko'd by right hands in the amatuers and Renaldo Snipes dropped him heavy in the pros, he was also shook by Witherspoon who could punch but other than the Bruno and Gonzales stops most of Witherspoons wins or loses were by the split decision verdict. Difference was Marciano did not let up and did not discourage and he was always fit to keep punching at an incredible pace. Holmes had a lot of heart and skill but I always wondered how his right hand vulnerabilty would do vs Dokes,Thomas,Page,improved Weaver,Coetzee,Tate...these guys were the co-champs and # 1 contenders of his era and BETER right hand punchers of his era....but we will NEVER know

[Ted Stickles]

I actually like Rocky in this in that Holmes had trouble with short crouch fighters and Rocky was probably the one of the best crouch fighters ever

[Ted Stickles]

Larry by late round stoppage due to cuts. At 6'3" 215lbs with an 80" reach, one of the best jabs in the history of the division and plenty of mobility, one has to wonder how the hell Marciano even reaches Holmes let alone beat him. A prime Holmes was light years ahead of any opponent Rocky ever faced with all due respect to men like Walcott, Charles et al. Larry would use a similar strategy as he used in his first fight with Shavers which was near picture perfect against a potent puncher, jab and move, give angles, stay off the ropes, set up the right hand and be in great condition. Holmes would probably cut Rocky early and work on the cut(s) all night prompting the ref to call a halt somewhere around the 10th. Rocky would be game but outclassed. Too much size, speed and skill this time around.

Walcott was extrremely gifted i think he had just as many and possibly more skill that Holmes aside from the jab which Holmes takes hands down...Archie moore,Ezzard Charles,Lastarza,all were very skilled fighters.The size would not be too much of a factor because 187 to 215 is not that bad and when the power ,conditioning,styles,and Larrys courage which could prove to work against hime in this fight would all come into play.........I think Rocky had a hell of a chance to win this one a hell of a chance..Ali later said even for an old man he could not beleive the physical strength Rocky had,and Joe Louis said it hurt just bumping into him.So i think his size sometimes is overlooks his physical strength and tell me when you ever saw him back up,when you have someone constantly backpeddling you that takes a ton out of you physically and mentally

[Mendoza]

Size did not help Larry when he was taken out on a stretcher vs 5"10 Nick Wells 2 times for the nationals and it did not help him vs Tyson...even though he was old....How would all the good right hand punchers Larry avoided have done if Larry fought them? Shavers had no follow up and NO stamina....Marciano had both

That was an amateur fight when Holmes was but 185 pounds, and very green. It means very little in the context of this thread. Shavers' stamina was not that bad. Shavers went 15 with Ali, 12 with Holmes, and 10 on a few occasions. Shavers was a pressure fighter. The only fight I saw Shavers in where he gassed was vs Tex Cobb, and Shavers was on the decline and matched up vs tough guy to get out of there when that one happened.

Rocky's chances of landing a big right hand in this fight was not so great. Marciano typically landed his right hands when the other guy on the ropes. Holmes would not be hanging around the ropes, and his mobility, height, weight, and range in this match up would be significant. Even if Rocky did land one or two good ones, Holmes has shown the ability to take it, get up if needed, and recover.

Rocky fans think he could make it a war. The trouble is on flimed fights vs guys like Lastarza, Cockell, and Chalres it too a while for the type of fight Rocky wanted to happen. If Chalres could pretty much stand by choice and go toe to to with Marciano for many rounds, Holmes if he had to do so could do the same. Holmes was a pretty good in-fighter too. He could body punch well or use an uppercut.

I think Marciano would have a better chance vs Ali than Holmes. Why? Ali didn't use an uppercut often, hung around the ropes, and was fundamentley flawed.

[sthomas]

Marciano by mid-late round KO. Holmes had too much trouble with old Ken Norton and a lot of average fighters for me to rank him toword the top of ATG status. He had tremendous heart and that saved him from being KO'd on several occasions. Getting off the canvas after that shot by Shavers is one of the greatest should have been KTFO punches ever taken.

That being said, Marciano was a much better fighter than Shavers, as well as Holmes other opponents, on offense and defense. His crouch style and unpredictable angles would make it very difficult for Holmes to sustain a consistant attack. Rocky would apply his unorthodox pressure and I'm sure he'd get to Holmes, pretty much everyone did. Holmes would get Kd'd and most likely get up, but Marciano's relentless followup attack would be too much and Holmes would go down for good or the ref. stops it.

Could Holmes win? You bet! If he chose to jab the entire fight and concentrate on defense (Pot Shot), he may pull off an uninspiring decision. The other option is to stop Rocky on cuts.

[janitor]

This fight basicaly turns on whether Holmes can keep away from Marciano for 15 rounds.

If he dosnt he is going to get ground down sooner or later. Marciano is just going to keep chiping peices off him untill he crumbles.

In order to beat Marciano you have to either be able to outslug him toe to toe or keep away from him for the duration. Holmes clearly isnt going to beat Marciano in a slugfest so it turns on his mobility.

Taking the above into consideration I think that a Marciano win is the most likley outcome because Holmes is neither crunchy nor chewy.

[mcvey]

I watched Shavers and he could punch but he did not have a multitude of right hand punches. like Marciano..I have seen him against Stander,Stallings,Quarry,RondonLyle,Cobb(who did not miss a shot) and I just feel his lack of stamina and solid chin puts him in a class of a puncher but lacking in areas, like Bob Satterfeild. He did drop Holmes and KO Norton but Norton was Ko'd by every puncher with a pulse and Holmes was dropped and Ko'd by right hands in the amatuers and Renaldo Snipes dropped him heavy in the pros, he was also shook by Witherspoon who could punch but other than the Bruno and Gonzales stops most of Witherspoons wins or loses were by the split decision verdict. Difference was Marciano did not let up and did not discourage and he was always fit to keep punching at an incredible pace. Holmes had a lot of heart and skill but I always wondered how his right hand vulnerabilty would do vs Dokes,Thomas,Page,improved Weaver,Coetzee,Tate...these guys were the co-champs and # 1 contenders of his era and BETER right hand punchers of his era....but we will NEVER know
Its well known that Holmes was susceptible to right hands over his low held left ,but he didnt avoid them.Holmes signed to fight Coetzee but the bout fell through,I think he would have jabbed the South African's head off ,before stopping him.Holmes was aging as Page came to the fore as he said himself "Rocky was a young guy fighting old men ,Im an old guy fighting young men".

[Holmes' Jab]

Holmes; UD. Possibly late TKO on cuts.

[Bummy Davis]

Its well known that Holmes was susceptible to right hands over his low held left ,but he didnt avoid them.Holmes signed to fight Coetzee but the bout fell through,I think he would have jabbed the South African's head off ,before stopping him.Holmes was aging as Page came to the fore as he said himself "Rocky was a young guy fighting old men ,Im an old guy fighting young men".


I THINK HE COULD HAVE BEATEN COETZEE ALSO BUT THE SOUTH AFRICAN WOULD HAVE PRESENTED A MORE FORMIDABLE RIGHT HAND THAN SNIPES. THE WEAVER REMATCH, DOKES,TATE,THOMAS,PAGE...I THINK LARRY WOULD HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO GET PAST THESE GUYS (AS INCONSISTANT AND UNDERTRAINED AS THEY COULD BE) IF LARRY DID NOT WANT TO FIGHT THE BEST OF HIS DIVISION HE SHOULD HAVE PACKED IT IN...YOU CANT SAY I AM OLD AND WILL NOT FIGHT THE BEST...CHARLES WAS 32 WHEN HE FOUGHT MARCIANO, MARCIANO WAS 30...WALCOTT PRIMED LATE AND MOORE FOUGHT ALI 8 YEARS LATER AND ONLY LOST 3 FIGHTS OUT OF HIS NEXT 43...BUT FIGHTERS LIKE LAYNE ,LASTARZA,MATTHEWS WHERE ALL YOUNGER THAN ROCKY AND LOUIS ACUALLY FOUGHT HIS WAY TO THE MATCH VS ROCKY BUT LOUIS WAS ONE OF THE FIGHTER THAT WAS VISABLY PAST HIS PRIME BUT NOT AS BAD AS ALI WAS VS HOLMES

[mcvey]

I THINK HE COULD HAVE BEATEN COETZEE ALSO BUT THE SOUTH AFRICAN WOULD HAVE PRESENTED A MORE FORMIDABLE RIGHT HAND THAN SNIPES. THE WEAVER REMATCH, DOKES,TATE,THOMAS,PAGE...I THINK LARRY WOULD HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO GET PAST THESE GUYS (AS INCONSISTANT AND UNDERTRAINED AS THEY COULD BE) IF LARRY DID NOT WANT TO FIGHT THE BEST OF HIS DIVISION HE SHOULD HAVE PACKED IT IN...YOU CANT SAY I AM OLD AND WILL NOT FIGHT THE BEST...CHARLES WAS 32 WHEN HE FOUGHT MARCIANO, MARCIANO WAS 30...WALCOTT PRIMED LATE AND MOORE FOUGHT ALI 8 YEARS LATER AND ONLY LOST 3 FIGHTS OUT OF HIS NEXT 43...BUT FIGHTERS LIKE LAYNE ,LASTARZA,MATTHEWS WHERE ALL YOUNGER THAN ROCKY AND LOUIS ACUALLY FOUGHT HIS WAY TO THE MATCH VS ROCKY BUT LOUIS WAS ONE OF THE FIGHTER THAT WAS VISABLY PAST HIS PRIME BUT NOT AS BAD AS ALI WAS VS HOLMES
I dont think Holmes used his age as an excuse he was just commenting around the time he went for Rocky's unbeaten record.Page would have been a formidable opponent if in shape ,not a given ,same goes for Witherspoon.I don't see Tate doing much against Holmes,Dokes was another who lived in the fast lane,the lost generation of Don King Heavyweights ,dissipated,drugged and dissollusioned.Money seems to have been more important to Holmes than his legacy,maybe because he followed Ali and that was a hard act to follow.Whatever he was a great Heavyweight ,imo.

[mr. magoo]

Exactly it was no acident that he avoided those good right hand punchers

Sure, fighting Earnie Shavers twice, is definately avoiding big hitting right handers. Lets not forget Boncrusher who had just iced Frank Bruno, Tim Witherspoon, and Ray Mercer at the age of 42, plus Oliver McCall who layed out Lewis with a right.

[Bokaj]

I think this will be close. Hard do to say who takes it. Marciano had a tough time with the best boxers he fought - E. Charles and Walcott, who were WELL into their 30's. Of course, Holmes also had trouble with fighters that wasn't near as good as "the rock".

I'll go with Holmes taking a decision. But it's far from unlikely that Marciano wins by a late KO.

[radianttwilight]

Sure, fighting Earnie Shavers twice, is definately avoiding big hitting right handers. Lets not forget Boncrusher who had just iced Frank Bruno, Tim Witherspoon, and Ray Mercer at the age of 42, plus Oliver McCall who layed out Lewis with a right.

I don't think that Holmes' matchmaking in his "old man" comeback is valid criteria.

At that point in his career, he was no longer an undefeated champion encroaching on Marciano's record, but rather an old ex-champ looking for some further glory (or whatever he was looking for). He was in a win-win situation - he gets credited for beating Mercer and so on, but his losses to Holyfield and McCall, of all people, seem to get ignored because he was "old".

He had nothing left to lose in his comeback, so he had to take some dangerous fights to get a belt(s).

[mr. magoo]

I don't think that Holmes' matchmaking in his "old man" comeback is valid criteria.

At that point in his career, he was no longer an undefeated champion encroaching on Marciano's record, but rather an old ex-champ looking for some further glory (or whatever he was looking for). He was in a win-win situation - he gets credited for beating Mercer and so on, but his losses to Holyfield and McCall, of all people, seem to get ignored because he was "old".

He had nothing left to lose in his comeback, so he had to take some dangerous fights to get a belt(s).

True to some extent. Personally, I don't think that he had to take the McCall fight persay. It was a good payday against a questionable champion, but he probably could have hung around and marketed himself for something else if he had the patience to do so. McCall was still viewed by many as lucky against Lewis, but his chin, heart, stamina and power made him a threat to nearly everyone especially an aging fighter on the comeback trail.

[Bummy Davis]

I dont think Holmes used his age as an excuse he was just commenting around the time he went for Rocky's unbeaten record.Page would have been a formidable opponent if in shape ,not a given ,same goes for Witherspoon.I don't see Tate doing much against Holmes,Dokes was another who lived in the fast lane,the lost generation of Don King Heavyweights ,dissipated,drugged and dissollusioned.Money seems to have been more important to Holmes than his legacy,maybe because he followed Ali and that was a hard act to follow.Whatever he was a great Heavyweight ,imo.

I liked Holmes as a fighter and thought he was an excellent fighter, I dont know if Money was the reason he did not fight those guys they were Co-Champs and unification fights usually were easy to build up for decent paydays but I remember being fustrated that these fights never came off as I was with Bowe/Lewis but I think it was clear that Bowe did not want that fight. Still Holmes fought a lot of guys with 10 fights 12 fights 13 fights 15 and 16 fights and a lot of the challengers were put there in the ratings by King, still Larry was the best conditioned and most consistant of all the guys I mentioned but I still believe some of those fights should have happened

[Sister Sledge]

I think Holmes dominates Marciano. I have never seen Larry get dominated by a short-armed inside fighter like Rocky. I could see Holmes keep Rocky off him with the jab and punishing him with the right uppercut. It's funny how people question Holmes' durability when Rock went down from a light-heavyweight and Joe Walcott, who was never thought to be a devastating puncher. They both went down and got up to show their sturdy chins.

Holmes was a much better boxer than Moore or Walcott and would have beat Marciano with his superior skill.

[Dempsey1238]

I think Holmes dominates Marciano. I have never seen Larry get dominated by a short-armed inside fighter like Rocky. I could see Holmes keep Rocky off him with the jab and punishing him with the right uppercut. It's funny how people question Holmes' durability when Rock went down from a light-heavyweight and Joe Walcott, who was never thought to be a devastating puncher. They both went down and got up to show their sturdy chins.

Holmes was a much better boxer than Moore or Walcott and would have beat Marciano with his superior skill.

Well thats because Holmes never fought a short arm inside fighter, like Marciano. Holmes would be in a war with Marciano I belive. Could go either way.
I belive Walcott had better footwork, and angels than Holmes, and perhaps a better puncher.

[Sardu]

In 12 rounds I believe Holmes might be able to hold Marciano off and win a decision. Although knowing it was 12 instead of 15 the Rock would make sure to start turning up the heat earlier.

Holmes had a magnificent jab that would trouble anyone including Marciano. Rocky would invest in the body early, eat a lot of punches from Holmes, get busted up, and would eventually wear Holmes down and knock the Easton Assasin out down the home stretch in the 14th round.


Holmes takes a full ten-count in the 14th round.

[Bummy Davis]

In 12 rounds I believe Holmes might be able to hold Marciano off and win a decision. Although knowing it was 12 instead of 15 the Rock would make sure to start turning up the heat earlier.

Holmes had a magnificent jab that would trouble anyone including Marciano. Rocky would invest in the body early, eat a lot of punches from Holmes, get busted up, and would eventually wear Holmes down and knock the Easton Assasin out down the home stretch in the 14th round.


Holmes takes a full ten-count in the 14th round.

Believable senario

[SuzieQ49]

I think this will be close. Hard do to say who takes it. Marciano had a tough time with the best boxers he fought - E. Charles and Walcott, who were WELL into their 30's. .

I think this works both ways. For example I could say Holmes had a tough time with the best boxers he fought who were green inexperienced fighters not even in there 15th pro fights yet.



ps charles was 32, thats HARDLY "well into his 30s". Marciano was 31 when he fought ezzard.

[mr. magoo]

I think this works both ways. For example I could say Holmes had a tough time with the best boxers he fought who were green inexperienced fighters not even in there 15th pro fights yet.






Which fighters had less than 15 fights who were the "best boxers" Holmes fought?

[SuzieQ49]

Which fighters had less than 15 fights who were the "best boxers" Holmes fought?



Tim Witherspoon, Carl Williams right around the 15 fight mark. Bonecrusher too.


Its amazing how many people pick holmes to win easy decisions over top fighters, when he struggled to win close controversial decisions over the top fighters of his era, and he failed to face many of the top heavies of his era.

[mr. magoo]

=SuzieQ49]Tim Witherspoon, Carl Williams right around the 15 fight mark. Bonecrusher too.

You specifically said less than 15 fights. Smith was not one of his best anyway. Holmes' best fighters were Norton, Shavers, Cooney, Berbick, Witherspoon and Mercer. Most of whom had over 15 fights, and none had less.


Its amazing how many people pick holmes to win easy decisions over top fighters, when he struggled to win close controversial decisions over the top fighters of his era, and he failed to face many of the top heavies of his era.


Holmes not facing certain top heavyweights was not entirely his failure. Some of those fights were not made for reasons other than your perceived idea of his being a coward or poor champion. As for him struggling with less experienced foes, well this sometimes tends to happen when an older fighter takes on a hot young prospect who has everything to gain and nothing to lose. How many young undefeated fighters did Rocky take on? How many of his best wins were cake walks? How many of them even remotely resembled Holmes in just about every aspect?

[Bummy Davis]

You specifically said less than 15 fights. Smith was not one of his best anyway. Holmes' best fighters were Norton, Shavers, Cooney, Berbick, Witherspoon and Mercer. Most of whom had over 15 fights, and none had less.



Holmes not facing certain top heavyweights was not entirely his failure. Some of those fights were not made for reasons other than your perceived idea of his being a coward or poor champion. As for him struggling with less experienced foes, well this sometimes tends to happen when an older fighter takes on a hot young prospect who has everything to gain and nothing to lose. How many young undefeated fighters did Rocky take on? How many of his best wins were cake walks? How many of them even remotely resembled Holmes in just about every aspect?


The timing of a Tate fight when Big John beat Knotezee and Coetzee and Bobick...there was money in a unification.....Weaver rematch was a Big money fight once Weaver KO'd Tate.....Dokes had a lot of Appeal and that would have been a Big $$ fight for Larry ....Coetzee was white and a good right hand puncher..Exciting fight and Gerrie was much more dangerous than Snipes,Berbick...and good money...Thomas...Big $$$....Page would have been a good $$fight

Weaver
Dokes
Page
Thomas
Coetzee
Tate
Williams
Witherspoon

I dont want to just blame Larry but if Louis,Lewis,Marciano,Ali,Tyson...fought a decade of Boxing and missed co-Champs and # 1 contenders...What would be said

[Ted Spoon]

Ted Spoon, the pompous ass that he can be, is exactly correct. As always.

God bless Ted Spoon.

This is correct.

[ChrisPontius]

I dont want to just blame Larry but if Louis,Lewis,Marciano,Ali,Tyson...fought a decade of Boxing and missed co-Champs and # 1 contenders...What would be said

That Ali was a peanuthead? :yep



How are things by the way, Bummy?

[Chinxkid]

This would have been a great one to watch. I think the question is whether Holmes would have had the punch to keep Rocky out all night long. I think the Rock eventually gets in and under Larry's formidable jab and does real damage by the eighth.

[Muchmoore]

This is a pickem fight. Holmes had the superior size and speed, but Marciano had the better power and chin. Holmes had that great jab which would work great scoring points but Marcianos rough and tumble style could draw Holmes into a brawl which would favor Rocky.

I pick Holmes here though. Holmes gave a peak Tyson a fairly good match when he was over the hill at 38 years old. Tyson was faster, bigger, stronger, and had better two fisted than Rocky. I use this comparison because when Holmes was hurt, it was still hard for Tyson, who was the greatest finisher of all time except maybe Louis, to finish him off. If Marciano DOES land the Suzie Q down the middle, which he will, Holmes is going down. BUT, and this is the deciding factor, I think Holmes could weather the storm. Holmes wins more rounds due to his jab and wins 8-7 or a close 9-6.

[Chinxkid]

This is a pickem fight. Holmes had the superior size and speed, but Marciano had the better power and chin. Holmes had that great jab which would work great scoring points but Marcianos rough and tumble style could draw Holmes into a brawl which would favor Rocky.

I pick Holmes here though. Holmes gave a peak Tyson a fairly good match when he was over the hill at 38 years old. Tyson was faster, bigger, stronger, and had better two fisted than Rocky. I use this comparison because when Holmes was hurt, it was still hard for Tyson, who was the greatest finisher of all time except maybe Louis, to finish him off. If Marciano DOES land the Suzie Q down the middle, which he will, Holmes is going down. BUT, and this is the deciding factor, I think Holmes could weather the storm. Holmes wins more rounds due to his jab and wins 8-7 or a close 9-6.

Very persuasive!

[Bummy Davis]

That Ali was a peanuthead? :yep



How are things by the way, Bummy?

Great Chris, how about yourself..be talking to you soon

[ChrisPontius]

Thanks, doing fine. A bit busy, but always get some time to sneak in at ESB.

[JohnThomas1]

Just let me clarify a couple of slightly off topic points here. I'm quick to point out Holmes avoiding the challenges of Page, Thomas and a Witherspoon rematch, say, so for the sake of balance per Holmes i will clarify two points.

Holmes and Tate were well on their way to a unification match that both wanted. It had been built up a bit and was VERY close to fruition when Tate got himself knocked stiff. No duckage.

Holmes was managed by Don King, Dokes by King's stepson Carl King. At the time Dokes challenged Weaver and just prior Holmes was still firing well and would have been the solid favorite over Dokes. He would have beat him IMO for sure. Dokes tired and slowed VERY fast in these days and noway did he have the firepower to get Holmes early. Think about it, where would the King's be left with a near retired Holmes and a beaten Dokes? No amount of money was getting these two fighters together at this time. Whether Holmes would have faced Dokes if the path was clear is up to conjecture, but he certainly didn't avoid Dokes given the facts we have.

[Bummy Davis]

yea but Dokes was 26-0 and had a title...Bey was 14-0, Smith was 14-1, Marvis was 10-0,Ocasio was 13-0 Leon SPNX 10-2-2,Cobb21-2, williams 16-0,Withersponn 15-0, Evangelista,Zanon, PLEASE..how about Scott Ledoux 26-8-4( who won 1 out of 4 fights to get a shot) Berbick was 18-1-1....Holmes fought a POOR bunch Oh I forgot Leroy Jones...guy could not fight at all...I do think Dokes would have been more of a challenge than any of those at the stage Holmes fouht them, Bey hardly won a fight after Holmes...yea Larry did a lot of hand picking

[JohnThomas1]

yea but Dokes was 26-0 and had a title...Bey was 14-0, Smith was 14-1, Marvis was 10-0,Ocasio was 13-0 Leon SPNX 10-2-2,Cobb21-2, williams 16-0,Withersponn 15-0, Evangelista,Zanon, PLEASE..how about Scott Ledoux 26-8-4( who won 1 out of 4 fights to get a shot) Berbick was 18-1-1....Holmes fought a POOR bunch Oh I forgot Leroy Jones...guy could not fight at all...I do think Dokes would have been more of a challenge than any of those at the stage Holmes fouht them, Bey hardly won a fight after Holmes...yea Larry did a lot of hand picking

I see your point Bummy, but see mine too > Holmes - Dokes was NEVER going to happen due to management first and foremost. As for Tate, he just couldn't keep his big ass winning.

I will however accept Page, Thomas, Witherspoon II and possibly even Weaver II. Holmes did take on a very dangerous looking and massively hyped Cooney.

[SuzieQ49]

Dokes had trouble with Holmes jab in sparring I read. I think holmes jab always would have been to much for him.

However experienced skilled fighters with big right hands like thomas and page would have been VERY TOUGH fights for holmes, especially in 83-85

[Bummy Davis]

I see your point Bummy, but see mine too > Holmes - Dokes was NEVER going to happen due to management first and foremost. As for Tate, he just couldn't keep his big ass winning.

I will however accept Page, Thomas, Witherspoon II and possibly even Weaver II. Holmes did take on a very dangerous looking and massively hyped Cooney.

I see your point, and I would give Larry the benifit of the doubt but not as many times as he fought guys who were really untested in an untested division.... Tate had his moments but was ruined by a very improved and powerfull Weaver with a last ditch effort...Dont you think that would have been a good time to fight Mike Weaver in a rematch...Larry did not fight the best and yes I guess we could also blame King but Cooney was built up, had a great left hook but was not ready for the Holmes fight and if he had taken the path of percieved least resistance for a title and fought Weaver instead he may have not got past the 5th round...Gerry disappointed vs Spinks and Foreman and did not have much but the hook and that could not keep their agression at bay....Still that fight and the Shavers was Holmes biggest risks...14-1 green James Smith was overated by beating a greener novice Bruno who was extra stiff and stationary for that fight...the scariest thing about Bonecrusher was his nickname...and he was doing fine with Holmes but got scared by the blood in his eye caused by Holmes thumb, the same thumb that blinded a novice Scott Frank, who tried to complain to the ref and the ref stopped it for his efforts. Holmes had a lot of talent but even his biggest fan can not say he proved it by fighting the best ...Marciano,Ali,Louis and Lewis always had rematches to remove the doubt of the 1st fight even an Older Louis did it vs Walcott...and Ali vs Spinks..and Marciano gave Charles a rematch because he deserved one...

[JohnThomas1]

Dokes had trouble with Holmes jab in sparring I read. I think holmes jab always would have been to much for him.

However experienced skilled fighters with big right hands like thomas and page would have been VERY TOUGH fights for holmes, especially in 83-85

I never did consider the Thomas right hand to be much to be honest. One brief flirtation with Weaver excepting. Let me promise you - Holmes stamina and durability guaranteed him a whupping of Dokes. The Dokes of Larry's day lost his blazing speed real fast and also tired quickly. Holmes would have taken his time, dragged him deep water and taken solid control after the mid rounds.

[mr. magoo]

The Dokes of Larry's day lost his blazing speed real fast and also tired quickly. Holmes would have taken his time, dragged him deep water and taken solid control after the mid rounds.

Truthfully, I think the best rendition of Dokes was the one who fought Evander Holyfield in 1989. Although, some might say that he was 30 years old and slipping, I believe he was in the best shape of his career, having temporarily stopped using drugs, training with a better team, and keeping active. I could almost see Holyfield beating a 1983 Dokes with less difficulty in all honesty. Dokes looked hot in his first fight with Mike Weaver, starting off quickley landing big shots, but that type of energy just didn't last for Dokes. He was very inconsistant and did not always look impressive against even average opposition. I think Page, Thomas, Tate and Coetzee would all have been better fights for Holmes than Dokes would in my opinion.

[JohnThomas1]

I see your point, and I would give Larry the benifit of the doubt but not as many times as he fought guys who were really untested in an untested division.

Later mainly. I thought until Witherspoon he was quite reasonable. I think in that fight he realised he was slipping substancially and then the rot set in.

Tate had his moments but was ruined by a very improved and powerfull Weaver with a last ditch effort

True. Tate was a good thing out of luck but such is biffo.

Dont you think that would have been a good time to fight Mike Weaver in a rematch

Two things hurt - Weavers extreme inactivity (for various reasons) and the politics of the WBC and WBA of the time. Unifications were very hard to come by.

Larry did not fight the best and yes I guess we could also blame King but Cooney was built up, had a great left hook but was not ready for the Holmes fight and if he had taken the path of percieved least resistance for a title and fought Weaver instead he may have not got past the 5th round

He could have also ko'ed the very very slow starting Weaver in the first round.

Gerry disappointed vs Spinks and Foreman and did not have much but the hook and that could not keep their agression at bay

Gerry was totally over the hill and basically inactive for both these fights. He was a shell of the man he had been, whom hadn't amounted to the hype regardless. Still tho, going into the Holmes fight he was massively regarded as can be attested to the ridiculous amount of top experts picking the big punching guffaw.

14-1 green James Smith was overated by beating a greener novice Bruno who was extra stiff and stationary for that fight

Yeah, if i remember right Bruno was all but home and had been totally outpointing him before being starched against the grain.

and he was doing fine with Holmes but got scared by the blood in his eye caused by Holmes thumb, the same thumb that blinded a novice Scott Frank, who tried to complain to the ref and the ref stopped it for his efforts.

Can of worms now open :D

Holmes had a lot of talent but even his biggest fan can not say he proved it by fighting the best ...Marciano,Ali,Louis and Lewis always had rematches to remove the doubt of the 1st fight even an Older Louis did it vs Walcott...and Ali vs Spinks..and Marciano gave Charles a rematch because he deserved one...

I can't argue with that mate and nor can any other sane person.

[JohnThomas1]

Truthfully, I think the best rendition of Dokes was the one who fought Evander Holyfield in 1989. Although, some might say that he was 30 years old and slipping, I believe he was in the best shape of his career, having temporarily stopped using drugs, training with a better team, and keeping active. I could almost see Holyfield beating a 1983 Dokes with less difficulty in all honesty. Dokes looked hot in his first fight with Mike Weaver, starting off quickley landing big shots, but that type of energy just didn't last for Dokes. He was very inconsistant and did not always look impressive against even average opposition. I think Page, Thomas, Tate and Coetzee would all have been better fights for Holmes than Dokes would in my opinion.

I 100% totally and unequivocally agree with your post. Young Dokes squandered his immense talent, old Dokes made the most of it for a while but was too faded to reap the rewards he would have many years earlier.