Great fighter who SHOULDN'T have been successful

[cross_trainer]

Are there any great fighters in history that you keep asking yourself, "How on earth did THIS guy manage to achieve what he did?" Perhaps the fighter lacks skill, like Foreman or Baer. Maybe he is given to winning with lucky punches, or his opponents seem to slack off in training or in the ring (Vitali vs. Williams and Johnson). Or perhaps his style looks so useless that you can't fathom why his opponent's didn't knock him into next week (Hamed, Marciano, Fitzsimmons).

Let's not include fighters whose fights were fixed repeatedly.

So...I'm listening.

[Shake]

Marciano. I love the man, and it's not his fault, he was a tribute to the sport with his work-ethic, but pull away the rug and let the young, tall black fighters out and there goes his '0'.

[Muchmoore]

Frazier is up there. He wasnt fast or strong but he trained hard and was as tough as anyone who ever boxed.

[Dempsey1238]

Marciano. I love the man, and it's not his fault, he was a tribute to the sport with his work-ethic, but pull away the rug and let the young, tall black fighters out and there goes his '0'.

Marciano was beating the young black fighters on his way up to the contender ranks, which was taking over by the Laynes, Matthews ete. Once he won the title, only 2 of his title fights were against white guys. Marciano was BEATING the top black fighters of his era. Just because there black does not mean they can beat Rocky. Marciano be even money vs any one. And he would have beating Patterson imo. There relly was NO one imo that could have beating Marciano from 1952-1958 guessing he did not retire. I give Liston a good chance when he came on the scene in 58. Because Rocky would be past it, not because Liston was black. Trust me Marciano would have beating many a great black fighter, and be 50 50 vs the likes of Ali base on styles.

[Titan1]

Ken Norton

[miamite]

foreman. he was horrible, no skill, no stamina and overrated power.
i get physically ill when i see people pick him over people like liston, Tyson, Louis, Dempsey, and Marciano when he was nearly ktfo'd by the mediocre ron lyle. It happens. Fighters have tough fights. You convieniently forgot to mention that he was coming off the traumatic loss to Ali, or the fact that he hadn't faught in a year(execpt for an exhibition). But that doesn't matter, what matters is the fact that he hung in there and eventually knocked out Lyle, and wasn't knocked out himself like Tyson was against Douglas.

[miamite]

Ken Norton Really? Why do you say that? Kenny was quite the athletic one, and fought in an extremely competitive era.

[Slothrop]

Marciano. I love the man, and it's not his fault, he was a tribute to the sport with his work-ethic, but pull away the rug and let the young, tall black fighters out and there goes his '0'.

No need for the racist bullshit.

[miamite]

Tokyo douglas was a much better fighter than george foreman ever was. I would have to strongly disagree. Douglas has done absolutely nothing of note except for his demolition of Tyson. He was also in fantastic shape against Tony Tucker, but he was stopped. Douglas was a fine boxer, but he was no George Foreman.

[karmazon]

Let me say that I love George Foreman, but seriously, how the fuck did he manage to achieve all that.

[C. M. Clay II]

Nobody mentioned Ali? Ali was expected to do nothing in the heayweight division when he came on the scene and all of a sudden you see him outclassing Sonny Liston. Then he has a great title run then has the title stripped. He then comes back and again defies the odds winning back the crown from Foreman when he was over the hill.

[NickHudson]

:lol::good

It happens. Fighters have tough fights. You convieniently forgot to mention that he was coming off the traumatic loss to Ali, or the fact that he hadn't faught in a year(execpt for an exhibition). But that doesn't matter, what matters is the fact that he hung in there and eventually knocked out Lyle, and wasn't knocked out himself like Tyson was against Douglas.

[NickHudson]

CM Clay II, you are obsessed. Its official.:hey

I think the earlier Monzon pick is great. I only have a couple of Monzon fights, but he certainly looks nothing special to me. Slow jab, medium pace right hands - but just so deceptive. He just kept landing his punches.

I am also intrigued by his cold, detached almost psychopathic demeanour.

From the french actor Alain Delon "He was exceptionally strong as a boxer, a kind of beast in a pure, savage state. All his friends knew his final days would be tragic."

A truly amazing fighter.


Nobody mentioned Ali? Ali was expected to do nothing in the heayweight division when he came on the scene and all of a sudden you see him outclassing Sonny Liston. Then he has a great title run then has the title stripped. He then comes back and again defies the odds winning back the crown from Foreman when he was over the hill.

[fists of fury]

Iran "the blade" Barkley.
Let's face it, how many men can claim two legitimate victories over Thomas Hearns? We can make all the excuses we like, but at the end of the day, Barkley was 2-0 against a guy who is probably several hundred positons above him in the p4p stakes. He also managed to break Hearns' nose in the second fight.
He also managed to give Duran one of his toughest fights ever. Okay, it was an 37 year old Duran but Duran looked spectacular that night. The Blade had a career-best performance in that losing effort. He looked so good that night, and rocked Duran to his boots with a hellacious left hook in the 8th.

Barkley was not the most skilled of champions, but he made the most of what he had. When all is said and done, he won titles in three weight divisons, and gave two legends the fight of their lives.

[Lacyace]

Bernard Hopkins. From where he started to where he's at now, he really shouldn't have been successful.

[Sonny's jab]

Iran "the blade" Barkley.
Let's face it, how many men can claim two legitimate victories over Thomas Hearns? We can make all the excuses we like, but at the end of the day, Barkley was 2-0 against a guy who is probably several hundred positons above him in the p4p stakes. He also managed to break Hearns' nose in the second fight.
He also managed to give Duran one of his toughest fights ever. Okay, it was an 37 year old Duran but Duran looked spectacular that night. The Blade had a career-best performance in that losing effort. He looked so good that night, and rocked Duran to his boots with a hellacious left hook in the 8th.

Barkley was not the most skilled of champions, but he made the most of what he had. When all is said and done, he won titles in three weight divisons, and gave two legends the fight of their lives.

:good
Great to see Barkley given his dues on this forum for once. There's a ton of love for Tommy Hearns around here but very little praise for Barkley, I've noticed.

I agree with all the comments on this thread about Carlos Monzon. He looks decidedly unspectacular for a fighter who achieved such great results.

I kind of disagree with the whole gist of what we might think we are doing in this thread though, - we aren't actually identifying "Great fighter who SHOULDN'T have been successful". We are really admitting our limitations in understanding the sport.
Rather than view this just as fighters who were apparently too limited to achieved as much as they did, I think it's us who have limitations in understanding what makes a fighter successful at the highest level.

[janitor]

Tommy Loughran.

No punch, physicaly frail. The guy esentialy had nothing except outstanding technique.

[janitor]

Let me say that I love George Foreman, but seriously, how the fuck did he manage to achieve all that.

I have often found myself wondering the same thing.

[Sonny's jab]

I dont really see any mystery about George Foreman's success.
He had immense strength and power, and was matched against a lot of fighters who were complete set-ups.
He had a lot of heart and dedication, but really most of his matches were basically foregone conclusions because the match-making was so weighted towards him.

His KOs for the championship against Frazier and Moorer were upsets but I dont think they were unfathomable. Frazier was a weakening champion in decline who played straight into Foreman's strengths. Moorer was a good boxer but had scraped past an ordinary performance from Holyfield and had not shown great punch resistance. Foreman landed a "miracle punch" to save the day in a fairytale sort of way, but for a puncher with 75 fights that's not so unfathomable.

Foreman's comeback was great because no one expects that sort of dedication from a 40 year old who has been retired for 10 years. But if you analyse it his success was as much a result of brilliant match-making and marketing rather than him fighting his way into contention. Holyfield gave him a beating, to be fair, and Alex Stewart was unlucky to lose the decision, and Tommy Morrison outboxed him. Foreman didn't earn the shot at Moorer. And then he got a gift over Axel Schulz.

Foreman's sheer strength, presence and power, and dedication, are the reasons he was so successful. But he didn't exactly take many risky fights to get his shots at the title.

[JohnThomas1]

Marciano is a great shout here, and none other than Angelo Dundee agree's 100%.

[bigG]

:good
Great to see Barkley given his dues on this forum for once. There's a ton of love for Tommy Hearns around here but very little praise for Barkley, I've noticed.

I agree with all the comments on this thread about Carlos Monzon. He looks decidedly unspectacular for a fighter who achieved such great results.

I kind of disagree with the whole gist of what we might think we are doing in this thread though, - we aren't actually identifying "Great fighter who SHOULDN'T have been successful". We are really admitting our limitations in understanding the sport.
Rather than view this just as fighters who were apparently too limited to achieved as much as they did, I think it's us who have limitations in understanding what makes a fighter successful at the highest level.

im a huge barkley fan.....the ko over hearns is one of the best iv seen, tommy's eyes are in different orbits!!.....i always marvelled at ray mercers success...he didnt start boxing till late in his life, and only to get out of army exercises in freezing cold germany...he wasnt fast, wasnt tremendously athletic, never possesed nullifying power...but he was competitive with the very best heavyweights of his generation....id have loved to see mercer fight tyson....!!

[red cobra]

Well Mayorga. You'd assume a brawler/street fighter's style like that wouldn't be able to compete with world-class boxers. That's the point of boxing, to be able to deal with and embarass guys like that by using technique, but for some reason he had success.
Yeah, but Mayorga was NOT, by any stretch of the imagination, a great fighter. A fairly good fighter who was more successful than he should have been.

[mcvey]

Marciano was beating the young black fighters on his way up to the contender ranks, which was taking over by the Laynes, Matthews ete. Once he won the title, only 2 of his title fights were against white guys. Marciano was BEATING the top black fighters of his era. Just because there black does not mean they can beat Rocky. Marciano be even money vs any one. And he would have beating Patterson imo. There relly was NO one imo that could have beating Marciano from 1952-1958 guessing he did not retire. I give Liston a good chance when he came on the scene in 58. Because Rocky would be past it, not because Liston was black. Trust me Marciano would have beating many a great black fighter, and be 50 50 vs the likes of Ali base on styles.
Which young black fighters of any status did Rocky beat?

[Dempsey1238]

Ali was expected to do good, the guy won a gold medal for crying out loud. The one reason there was some feeling he would not go far was because Liston was view as a God of the ring. Hell 20 or so rich guys put there investments in Ali before he turn pro. That never happen to say a Louis or Marciano. Ali was expected to go far, and perhaps become champ when Liston either left or got way 2 old.

[Dempsey1238]

Charles was 33, Also we the many journman like Tiger Jones, Keene Simmons was other. Now they were not great contenders, but good jouyman.

[janitor]

Which young black fighters of any status did Rocky beat?

Look at it another way.

Which young black fighters of any status were there at the time?

[MrSmall]

Ali dancing around - how many 200 pound men managed to pull this off and beat the crap out of people for 15 rounds?

Then, he defies the odds again:
Ali rope-a-dope - TAKES a beating to dish an even bigger one out over the stretch. That's some shit.

Tyson - Short stocky 5"10 dude knocking out 6"5+ motherfuckers.

Lots more - that's all that come to mind.
Toney at heavyweight, too.

[Dempsey1238]

Ali did not weight 200 pounds in the 1960's. He was a 190 pounder for most of the 60's. And yes there were MANY guys before Ali that dance and bounch around the ring, Jack Johnson, Gene Tunney, Jim Corbett, Roland LarSarza, Ezzard Charles, Joe Walcott, and others. Its not like Ali was invented a new style for the heavyweights. He is great, but dont try and make it out Ali was inventing a new style of fighting.

[Sonny's jab]

Ali did not weight 200 pounds in the 1960's. He was a 190 pounder for most of the 60's.

Which fights in the 1960s did he weigh under 200 pounds ?

[GazOC]

Ali was mid 190s until 62-63, I think he even came in under 190???

[Sonny's jab]

Yeah, I see according to boxrec he was 200 or more from the Archie Moore fight (Nov.'62) onwards. Before that he was under 200.

I didn't count, but I guess that's about half his fights from the 1960s.

[GazOC]

it isn't 'most of the 60's' though.....;O)

[Sonny Carson]

foreman. he was horrible, no skill, no stamina and overrated power.
i get physically ill when i see people pick him over people like liston, Tyson, Louis, Dempsey, and Marciano when he was nearly ktfo'd by the mediocre ron lyle.
Ron Lyle wasn't a bad fighter at all and was a big puncher. And no one dismantled Frazier like Foreman did. And even though Chuvalo didn't go down in that fight with Foreman he was still hurt. Nobody hurt Chuvalo except for Foreman.