Jeet Kune Do:The Way of the Intercepting Fist. Bruce Lee technique & philosophy VIDS

[sugarngold]

Skip to 1:00 in the first video. The footage is from the television show Longstreet written by Sterling Siliphant and Bruce Lee. In it, Bruce gives a simple explanation behind JKD.

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Here's the famous scene from Enter the Dragon where Bruce coaches a young martial artist on how to apply technique.

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These next two videos are from the Black Belt video series back in the 90's featuring Bruce Lee's students Ted WOng and Richard Bustillo demonstrating the self defense techniques from Bruce Lee's book on self defense in 1960something. The proposed book was not published during Bruce's lifetime because he did not want people to start selling JKD as a set of techniques.

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Jeet Kune Do: The Way of the Intercepting Fist: JKD Fingerjab


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In the GIF we see Mirko Crocop use a lead fingerjab to intercept his opponent's attack.

In brief - Bruce's ideas behind the fingerjab evolved out of his wing chun training when he combined it with the principles behind western fencing and boxing.

We see several Jeet Kune Do concepts at work here:

1) Closest weapon to the nearest target. Crocop uses a lead fingerjab as it is the closest weapon to his opponent.

2) Economy of motion. The shortest distance between two points is a straight line. Like the lead jab in boxing, the fingerjab lashes straight out traveling the shortest distance to the target - in this case the opponent's eyes.

3) Attack the opponents weakest point. Crocop attacks his opponent's eyes.

4) The rear hand maintains defense. Crocop keeps his left hand high as he attacks. This allows him to deflect any incoming attacks.

5) Attack by combination. Crocop takes advantage of the opening created by the fingerjab and follows up with a straight left cross.

In this fight, Crocop was able to gain the advantage by temporarily blinding his opponent with a well placed fingerjab. He followed up with a barrage of punches to stop his opponent.



Bruce's techniques are very simple yet still effective in the modern age of MMA. One can only wonder what Bruce Lee would have done during the rise of the UFC and mixed martial arts.

I'm not talking about what Bruce would have done as a fighter or anything so mundane - rather I am talking about how he might have applied his martial philosophies to the business of mixed martial arts. Perhaps Dana White would have been a bad dream as ZUFFA would never have had the opportunity to purchase the UFC brand. UFC president Bruce Lee? :wink:

[sugarngold]

Here's a clip from Daily Motion. In it, Bruce Lee discusses why he does not "believe in styles" of martial arts. The audio plays over footage of Bruce Lee doing various drills and demos.

I wanted to include this in the first post, but Daily Motion doesn't embed here so I didn't want to mar the nice symmetry of all those videos above with an ugly old link like this:

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[acb]

This last video is one of the Tommy Carruthers videos floating around the web. This is included because it is a pretty good demonstration of full speed jkd styled combinations.

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Sorry dude but I don't like Carruthers at all or the way he slaps himself while punching for sound effect.

[sugarngold]

Sorry dude but I don't like Carruthers at all or the way he slaps himself while punching for sound effect.

Thanks for your comments. I included that clip because of the display of economy of motion and directness of attack. I'm not necessarily endorsing Carruthers because there are some things he says and does that I don't agree with. For example, in the clip you can hear him say that he doesn't teach his students to spar. I believe that some form of sparring is necessary for anyone that wants to be able to apply their techniques in the heat of combat.

Thanks again.

[acb]

Thanks for your comments. I included that clip because of the display of economy of motion and directness of attack. I'm not necessarily endorsing Carruthers because there are some things he says and does that I don't agree with. For example, in the clip you can hear him say that he doesn't teach his students to spar. I believe that some form of sparring is necessary for anyone that wants to be able to apply their techniques in the heat of combat.

Thanks again.

No man I hear you I didn't mean to come off like that. This guy just gets so much talk and he just seems like a showman to me, thats all.

I like Ted Wong and have trained with him a few times. He is about simplicity and loves boxing as well.

[elixirvtec]

Im a big bruce lee fan but he would get his ass kicked in todays MMA.

[joe the great]

Thanks for sharing.

[IntentionalButt]

So, you posted some JKD vids to support your hypothesis that Bruce Lee would have been successful as a businessman? :huh

[sugarngold]

No man I hear you I didn't mean to come off like that. This guy just gets so much talk and he just seems like a showman to me, thats all.

I like Ted Wong and have trained with him a few times. He is about simplicity and loves boxing as well.

Oh, OK. I see what you're saying. You're probably correct.

That's great that you actually trained with Ted Wong. I tried to make it to one of those seminars in Virginia with Ted Wong and Joe Lewis - but wasn't able to work it out at the time. It's definitely one of my goals to train with Wong or Lewis or Inosanto at some point while they are still offering seminars.

Thanks for your comments.

[sugarngold]

Im a big bruce lee fan but he would get his ass kicked in todays MMA.

I haven't really thought about how Bruce Lee would do in today's MMA. It's like comparing apples and oranges. If you go down the list of illegal techniques in MMA/UFC - you can find all of the starting combinations and attacks associated with JKD.

1. No eye gouging.
2. No groin strikes.
3. No striking the throat area.
4. etc. . .

So if everything in JKD is illegal in an MMA ring because it is too dangerous - then you are more than likely correct - Bruce Lee would not do very well in a MMA ring. However, Bruce Lee kept himself in superb condition, training cardio and weights on a daily basis which any professional or amatuer fighter will tell us is the cornerstone of being effective in the ring.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Couple his conditioning with his actual martial knowledge, for example he was already cross-training in boxing, kung fu, judo, wrestling and submissions twenty-five years before Royce Gracie and the UFC made Brazilian Jiujutsu en vogue, then one can safely assume that Bruce Lee would have been quite competitive if picked up whole and uncut from 1973 and dropped into today's MMA ring.

[Only registered and activated users can see links] [Only registered and activated users can see links]

And if by some time-bending miracle that Bruce Lee were afforded the same opportunities as any other fighter training for MMA and was able to supplement his knowledge with the latest techniques and training methods -then it is extremely safe to assume that he would not only have done very well at MMA - but he could have been one of the absolute very best in the game today - going up against the likes of BJ Penn, Aoki, Alvarez, Faber and Sean Sherk.

This is all merely speculation as we will never know the truth. Rather than wonder how Bruce Lee would have performed in MMA, I am perfectly happy to follow the exploits of the great fighters that are active in the ring such as GSP, BJ Penn, Anderson Silva, Cung Lee, Randy Couture and the list goes on and on. Out of the fighters active in MMA, many have been trained by or have cross trained with various JKD influenced gyms. Randy Couture, Sean Sherk, Erik Paulson, and Josh Barnett are but a few of the names of fighters that have at one time or another supplemented their training and knowledge through schools with a direct lineage to JKD and Bruce Lee. So even though Bruce Lee is long gone, he still has an influence on MMA today.

Thanks for your comments.

[sugarngold]

So, you posted some JKD vids to support your hypothesis that Bruce Lee would have been successful as a businessman? :huh

Thanks for taking the time to respond. In answer to your question, no. Not quite. I suppose that is all rather confusing. I'm just throwing paint at the canvas to see what sticks - if you know what I mean. I just posted those Bruce Lee vids so that people can gleen whatever they can from them. The literal reason for posting these JKD vids was because another poster was inquiring into which martial arts were the most effective in terms of self-defense. Hopefully, viewing these videos will give him some ideas as to which course of action to follow.

That nonsense about Bruce Lee as UFC president that I typed at the bottom of my post was just a random musing to fill up the empty space beneath. I posted it because while I was trying to decide which videos to post, I suddenly realized how many demos that Bruce Lee used to perform in public or on television - even after he was an established TV and Hong Kong movie star. He really loved sharing his art with the public. That led me to speculate about what would have happend if Bruce Lee had been alive when the UFC debuted in 1994. It was just a random musing and nothing more.

[sugarngold]

And in this clip, Bruce Lee is back to remind us that a good martial artist must be like water ([Only registered and activated users can see links]). . .

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[acb]

Oh, OK. I see what you're saying. You're probably correct.

That's great that you actually trained with Ted Wong. I tried to make it to one of those seminars in Virginia with Ted Wong and Joe Lewis - but wasn't able to work it out at the time. It's definitely one of my goals to train with Wong or Lewis or Inosanto at some point while they are still offering seminars.

Thanks for your comments.

Ted is a cool cat I suppose, but doesn't really open up much without a lot of time and investment. He is also very dogmatic, as are all the OJKD teachers (including Poteet who I also trained with). And another thing, you should know that Wong fundamentally disagrees with everything Inosanto so don't even bring the man up if you train with him at a seminar.

I use to train a lot in JKD and the last few years just keep it to boxing. Its my true love and I can't stand the politics of JKD. Los Angeles is full of old Lee students all trying to make a buck on his name.

[sugarngold]

Ted is a cool cat I suppose, but doesn't really open up much without a lot of time and investment. He is also very dogmatic, as are all the OJKD teachers (including Poteet who I also trained with). And another thing, you should know that Wong fundamentally disagrees with everything Inosanto so don't even bring the man up if you train with him at a seminar.

I use to train a lot in JKD and the last few years just keep it to boxing. Its my true love and I can't stand the politics of JKD. Los Angeles is full of old Lee students all trying to make a buck on his name.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I was marginally aware of the politics in the JKD community - but I've never really paid it mcuh attention. I like to gather knowledge from wherever I can so it doesn't matter me if it's JKD, OJKD, JKD Concepts, Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do, or whatever. If it works, I'll use it.

Thanks for the head's up on Wong and Inosanto. I certainly wouldn't want to say the wrong things around them. It seems like everyone disagrees with Dan Inosanto to a certain extent. I like how guys like Poteet, Wong, Taky Kimura and others are still teaching the art the way Bruce Lee taught it to them (at the respective times that he trained with each). I also like how Inosanto has applied his JKD to the Phillipino arts. It's all a form of self expression so there is room for growth into other arts - but at the same time it is important for the original art of JKD to be kept alive for future generations.

[scurlaruntings]

You the new "Cross Trainer"? Keep it up! Its about time Jeet got put back on the map!!

[sugarngold]

You the new "Cross Trainer"? Keep it up! Its about time Jeet got put back on the map!!

Thanks for the kind words, bro. I am going to fill this thread with as many Bruce Lee/JKD vids as I can find. It's good to know that it's not pissing everybody off. :good

[rekcutnevets]

Originally posted by sugarngold
Thanks for the kind words, bro. I am going to fill this thread with as many Bruce Lee/JKD vids as I can find. It's good to know that it's not pissing everybody off.

Well it's pissing me off. Why do you refuse to acknowledge real martial art pioneers like these?

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[rekcutnevets]

The above was an inside joke between sugarngold and myself. It was not meant to start a debate, it was for humor only.

[sugarngold]

The above was an inside joke between sugarngold and myself. It was not meant to start a debate, it was for humor only.

:rofl:rofl:rofl

[sugarngold]

Well it's pissing me off. Why do you refuse to acknowledge real martial art pioneers like these?

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

How in the world did you find that clip of Vale and Shamrock? I've been wanting to see that for some time.

lol

[rekcutnevets]

Originally posted by sugarngold
How in the world did you find that clip of Vale and Shamrock? I've been wanting to see that for some time.

I remembered seeing it when I was searching for some different footage some time ago, and thinking the ko looked a lot like a pro wrestling match knock out. I was waiting for Vale to pin him for the 3 count. I'm not questioning its validity, just thought it looked that way.

Before I posted that link; I just google Bart Vale's name, and there it was again.

[SkillsSoSmooth]

Very interesting Vids of the great man, he is a true legend of the art.

[codeman99998]

I haven't really thought about how Bruce Lee would do in today's MMA. It's like comparing apples and oranges. If you go down the list of illegal techniques in MMA/UFC - you can find all of the starting combinations and attacks associated with JKD.

1. No eye gouging.
2. No groin strikes.
3. No striking the throat area.
4. etc. . .

So if everything in JKD is illegal in an MMA ring because it is too dangerous - then you are more than likely correct - Bruce Lee would not do very well in a MMA ring. However, Bruce Lee kept himself in superb condition, training cardio and weights on a daily basis which any professional or amatuer fighter will tell us is the cornerstone of being effective in the ring.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Couple his conditioning with his actual martial knowledge, for example he was already cross-training in boxing, kung fu, judo, wrestling and submissions twenty-five years before Royce Gracie and the UFC made Brazilian Jiujutsu en vogue, then one can safely assume that Bruce Lee would have been quite competitive if picked up whole and uncut from 1973 and dropped into today's MMA ring.

[Only registered and activated users can see links] [Only registered and activated users can see links]

And if by some time-bending miracle that Bruce Lee were afforded the same opportunities as any other fighter training for MMA and was able to supplement his knowledge with the latest techniques and training methods -then it is extremely safe to assume that he would not only have done very well at MMA - but he could have been one of the absolute very best in the game today - going up against the likes of BJ Penn, Aoki, Alvarez, Faber and Sean Sherk.

This is all merely speculation as we will never know the truth. Rather than wonder how Bruce Lee would have performed in MMA, I am perfectly happy to follow the exploits of the great fighters that are active in the ring such as GSP, BJ Penn, Anderson Silva, Cung Lee, Randy Couture and the list goes on and on. Out of the fighters active in MMA, many have been trained by or have cross trained with various JKD influenced gyms. Randy Couture, Sean Sherk, Erik Paulson, and Josh Barnett are but a few of the names of fighters that have at one time or another supplemented their training and knowledge through schools with a direct lineage to JKD and Bruce Lee. So even though Bruce Lee is long gone, he still has an influence on MMA today.

Thanks for your comments.

Bruce Lee was very possibly the first true mixed martial artist. That said, he PROBABLY doesn't stand a chance in todays MMA world. Early MMA events often had only the rule of no eye gouging, and I'm not sure he would even beat a Royce at UFC 1.

Those videos are nice, but unrealistic for any sort of practice drill. I mean, it is extremely unwise to assume you can land a side kick perfectly on the first strike when you are being attacked unknowingly and that you can down an opponent. Even Lee himself has a tall order with that one.

[rekcutnevets]

Originally Posted by codeman99998
Bruce Lee was very possibly the first true mixed martial artist. That said, he PROBABLY doesn't stand a chance in todays MMA world. Early MMA events often had only the rule of no eye gouging, and I'm not sure he would even beat a Royce at UFC 1.

Those videos are nice, but unrealistic for any sort of practice drill. I mean, it is extremely unwise to assume you can land a side kick perfectly on the first strike when you are being attacked unknowingly and that you can down an opponent. Even Lee himself has a tall order with that one.

I see where you are coming from, but I think you need to consider a few things.

I don't think Bruce Lee would care anything about being in today's mma scene anymore than he cared about competing in organized fighting when he was alive.

I don't know if would have taken Lee's watching of UFC I to discover BJJ. The Gracie's had a challenge that was known by some in the martial arts world, and talk of their work work probably reached and interested Lee before the 90's. Gracie In Action, the video series, was out in the 80's. The Gracies were well enough established to help choreograph the final fight scene in Lethal Weapon.

The first couple of videos in sugarngold's post are from volume I of a book Lee co-authored. Those were beginning self defense techniques that a student would later be taught tools to follow up with as needed. No technique is going to be effective every time. A side kick will not win every fight for you, just as an armbar will not.

I know you did not say that a sidekick could not be effective, I'm just stating the following as recent evidence for its effectiveness. Cung Le used the sidekick as a weapon all fight long against one of mma's best, Frank Shamrock. Cung used other effectve techniques as well, as the sidekick is merely one tool of the many he possesses.

[Beebs]

Bruce Lee was very possibly the first true mixed martial artist.

Not by any stretch of the imagination.

[wesrman]

Great thread. :good
Bruce is the man.

[Wilhelm]

I train at what I would call a JKD concepts gym where there is a basic curriculum and then a bunch of specialty classes that you can take depending on what you like. There are also Jun Fan classes based on what Lee himself was into in his day. There are some people who are really into it, but when we all spar they never seem to use the trapping/backfist/trip stuff they do in Jun Fan. Do any of you guys who practice that stuff get it to work in regular kickboxing/mma sparring? The only time I see that stuff “work” is in the kind of canned set up demos like the vid in this thread.

[younghypnotiq]

i hope ur joking thinking bruce lee would be one of the top mma fighters. also if u took bruce right out of his time he wouldnt do well against a UFC fighter in teh street either.

[Dynamite Kid]

i hope ur joking thinking bruce lee would be one of the top mma fighters. also if u took bruce right out of his time he wouldnt do well against a UFC fighter in teh street either.

That's a joke right? As in haha?:blood

[Beebs]

That's a joke right? As in haha?:blood

I'd say its a pretty valid observation.

[sugarngold]

i hope ur joking thinking bruce lee would be one of the top mma fighters. also if u took bruce right out of his time he wouldnt do well against a UFC fighter in teh street either.

Actually - I've been doing my best to avoid an argument over this. It's kinda like arguing over who would win in a fight between Superman and Godzilla. It's a mythical match up that will never happen.

That said - I presented a fairly solid case for why Bruce Lee would not only be able to handle himself but would in fact be a top fighter if he were invovled in MMA.

As yet none of you have made a case to back up your thoughts to counter my own so there hasn't been a need to respond to any of this.

This thread is to share the philosophies of JKD and nothing more. If you guys all know so much that you can't benefit from these teachings - then you are the better man and martial artist than I.

I like to believe that I don't know everything and enjoy increasing my knowledge on a daily basis.

Thanks for your comments.

[Dynamite Kid]

I'd say its a pretty valid observation.

Then maybe you should get some glasses to observe better:lol:

[sugarngold]

This next series of clips comes from a video released in the early 90's called Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do. I picked up a copy of this orange sleeved rarity for a cool sum of $39.95 at the time of it's release. I still keep my copy on display with my action movies as the cover has a great pic of Bruce in his Game of Death yellow suit. Someone was kind enough to convert it and upload it to Daily Motion. Here is the complete video in eight parts. Best watched with your copy of The Tao of Jeet Kune Do in hand and a red pen close at hand. The devil is in the details in this one and the excerpts from Bruce's book make this video priceless for any martial artist - mixed or otherwise.

Enjoy.

Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do


Chapter One: In the beginning.

"Jeet Kune Do is simple, direct & non-classical."

Bruce Lee

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Chapter Two: Towards Personal Liberation.

“Man the living creature, the creating individual is always more important than any established style or system.”

Bruce Lee

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Chapter Three: Punching

“Like boxing or fencing JKD is a step by step project in which each maneuver must be repeated many times.”

Bruce Lee

[Only registered and activated users can see links]


Chapter Four: Footwork

“Man, he is constantly growing and when he is bound by a set pattern of ideas or way of doing things, that's when he stops growing.”

Bruce Lee

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Chapter Four continued.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]


Chapter Five: Kicking

“A few simple techniques well presented, an aim clearly seen, are better than a tangled maze of data whirling in disorganized educational chaos.”


Bruce Lee

Chapter Six: Training

“JKD, ultimately is not a matter of petty technique but of highly developed spirituality and physique.”


Bruce Lee

[Only registered and activated users can see links]


Chapter Seven: Think on these things

“The art of Jeet Kune Do is simply to simplify.”

Bruce Lee

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[sugarngold]

This is a clip of Erik Paulson hi-lites. Paulson is one of the modern pioneers of mixed martial arts as well as a graduate of Dan Inosanto's JKD/Kali Academy.

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[Hermit]

Im a big bruce lee fan but he would get his ass kicked in todays MMA.

He said he doesn't believe in 'style', so I'm sure he would adapt just fine. My son bought some of the early MMA stuff so I've seen the progression.

[sugarngold]

I train at what I would call a JKD concepts gym where there is a basic curriculum and then a bunch of specialty classes that you can take depending on what you like. There are also Jun Fan classes based on what Lee himself was into in his day. There are some people who are really into it, but when we all spar they never seem to use the trapping/backfist/trip stuff they do in Jun Fan. Do any of you guys who practice that stuff get it to work in regular kickboxing/mma sparring? The only time I see that stuff “work” is in the kind of canned set up demos like the vid in this thread.

This is a really great question and I missed it for some reason.

I have never officially studied wing chun so I can't speak with any knowledge on the subject. I have had success with basic trapping/blocking/striking in sparring sessions. It's more common to be in kickboxing situations where the opponents keep their arms and guard in tight leaving little opportunity to create trapping opportunities. Like any technique, trapping has a time and place for application. I've also done submissions for many years and have never caught anyone in an alligator roll choke. Doesn't mean the alligator roll is a bad technique - just that I've never been in a position to use it effectively.

[rekcutnevets]

Originally Posted by sugarngold
Like any technique, trapping has a time and place for application. I've also done submissions for many years and have never caught anyone in an alligator roll choke. Doesn't mean the alligator roll is a bad technique - just that I've never been in a position to use it effectively.

This is a very good point. No technique is fool proof. They are all hit or miss. If you think you are going to trap and hit all night long, I think you'll find your self sorely mistaken. I do think it is possible to occasionally occupy one's limb, and successfully counter.

It is like any technique you watch in a demonstration. Sometimes it may apply.

[Imperial1]

Its crazy to know how ahead of his time Lee was ..He truly is the Godfather of MMA .

[dranon]

I cant believe how some of you seem to forget that Lee wanst just an actor ....he trained very hard and could fight and he was actually a very good boxer/striker, Very fast and very accurate ... even he himself said alot of the fight moves he used in movies just looked good in movies and didnt ever apply to a real fight ....maybe in todays mma he gets owned on the ground ... but he could stand and trade with any guy out there and hold his own , no doubt in my mind what so ever. some of you have no idea who Lee was or what he was actually about.

[sugarngold]

I cant believe how some of you seem to forget that Lee wanst just an actor ....he trained very hard and could fight and he was actually a very good boxer/striker, Very fast and very accurate ... even he himself said alot of the fight moves he used in movies just looked good in movies and didnt ever apply to a real fight ....maybe in todays mma he gets owned on the ground ... but he could stand and trade with any guy out there and hold his own , no doubt in my mind what so ever. some of you have no idea who Lee was or what he was actually about.

Excellent comment. Thanks for posting.

[sugarngold]

Classic Bruce Lee demos.

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[sugarngold]

:bump

[Beebs]

I cant believe how some of you seem to forget that Lee wanst just an actor ....he trained very hard and could fight and he was actually a very good boxer/striker, Very fast and very accurate ... even he himself said alot of the fight moves he used in movies just looked good in movies and didnt ever apply to a real fight ....maybe in todays mma he gets owned on the ground ... but he could stand and trade with any guy out there and hold his own , no doubt in my mind what so ever. some of you have no idea who Lee was or what he was actually about.

And you are led to believe this from all of his boxing and kickboxing you have seen?

He was not the godfather of anything, the sport existed before Bruce was born, people like Valdemar Santana

[sugarngold]

There is nothing to suggest that Bruce Lee was the Godfather of MMA. More correctly he could be attributed as the progenitor of the philosophy that can be applied to MMA such as cross training in multiple arts to become well rounded as well as supplementing one's training with a proper diet and conditioning.

These concepts are valuable to MMA practitioners - but in reality MMA is limited in scope when compared to Bruce Lee's philosophy. He did not believe in being bound by restrictions and limitations. All you have to do is watch a UFC card or Elite XC or whatever and you'll see plenty of horrible technique perpetrated because the fighters are protected by rules - instead of thinking and reacting as they would in street situations.

I have trained for ring fighting and submission matches - but always with street effectiveness in mind first and foremost.

[Canibus81]

Thanks for taking the time to respond. In answer to your question, no. Not quite. I suppose that is all rather confusing. I'm just throwing paint at the canvas to see what sticks - if you know what I mean. I just posted those Bruce Lee vids so that people can gleen whatever they can from them. The literal reason for posting these JKD vids was because another poster was inquiring into which martial arts were the most effective in terms of self-defense. Hopefully, viewing these videos will give him some ideas as to which course of action to follow.

That nonsense about Bruce Lee as UFC president that I typed at the bottom of my post was just a random musing to fill up the empty space beneath. I posted it because while I was trying to decide which videos to post, I suddenly realized how many demos that Bruce Lee used to perform in public or on television - even after he was an established TV and Hong Kong movie star. He really loved sharing his art with the public. That led me to speculate about what would have happend if Bruce Lee had been alive when the UFC debuted in 1994. It was just a random musing and nothing more.

Besides all of that you touched and I totally agree with you on it is none of the MMA fighters had the blinding speed Bruce had. I mean this guy was punching and kicking so fast they had to slow down cameras and shit. One of the vids I posted he demostrates that. So just that one key element, along with his knowlegde, superb conditioning and everything else you touched on, I couldn't see anyone beating him. Only would have be to try and take him down, cause standing, he destroys even anderson silva IMO. But like you said, we'll never know. I would wager a lot of money though that he would be the floyd mayweather or roy jones jr. of mma.

[Beebs]

Besides all of that you touched and I totally agree with you on it is none of the MMA fighters had the blinding speed Bruce had. I mean this guy was punching and kicking so fast they had to slow down cameras and shit. One of the vids I posted he demostrates that. So just that one key element, along with his knowlegde, superb conditioning and everything else you touched on, I couldn't see anyone beating him. Only would have be to try and take him down, cause standing, he destroys even anderson silva IMO. But like you said, we'll never know. I would wager a lot of money though that he would be the floyd mayweather or roy jones jr. of mma.

What a joke.

Take a thai boxer from the same time period, and Lee wouldn't wake up.

[Canibus81]

What a joke.

Take a thai boxer from the same time period, and Lee wouldn't wake up.

He actually ko'ed a Thaiboxer on the set of the filming of the big bosss, it was confirmed by a director who saw the fight. Besides, Bruce incorporated Thaiboxing in his style Jeet Kuno Do. The whole point I was trying to make was his explosive speed seperated him from everyone else. If you don't think speed doesn't account for anything, than take a look at roy jones in his prime, who had bad technique, but his speed made him overcome techinical mishaps. Bruce had great techinque to go along with his blinding speed. I don't think too many guys get in on him(unless there very fast) without getting tagged with some meaningful punches or kicks. Anyway, we can argue all day about it, we'll never know.

[Canibus81]

This is a very good point. No technique is fool proof. They are all hit or miss. If you think you are going to trap and hit all night long, I think you'll find your self sorely mistaken. I do think it is possible to occasionally occupy one's limb, and successfully counter.

It is like any technique you watch in a demonstration. Sometimes it may apply.

A friend of mines knows Jeet Kuno Do, and he actually went to seatle to get his black belt from one of Bruce Lee's ex students and met Bruce Lee's wife in the process to get honored. He is very good and I've seen him workout with some good martial artist's. One was kick boxer and Muai Thai stylist and he caught both MA's in a knot by trapping their arms to show how effective it can be against striking. Only time trapping isn't effective is when someone trying to grapple but that is the reason for Jeet Kuno Do, so it's not just original froms of wing chun, it's other blends of fighting. You can even apply a choke after trapping and countering a persons punch but you obviously would have to be real good at it the way my boy is. He makes it look easy.

[Beebs]

Men have been punching each other since man existed, every last nuance of punching has been discovered and distilled down to what works, effectively, against another man; and yet nobody who gets paid to punch, ever traps.

[sugarngold]

Men have been punching each other since man existed, every last nuance of punching has been discovered and distilled down to what works, effectively, against another man; and yet nobody who gets paid to punch, ever traps.

And nobody has used sidekicks effectively until Cung Le entered MMA.

FYI - trapping blends into grappling. What do you think Randy Couture's dirty boxing hand on the neck is? It's part of trapping and grappling.

[Canibus81]

And nobody has used sidekicks effectively until Cung Le entered MMA.

FYI - trapping blends into grappling. What do you think Randy Couture's dirty boxing hand on the neck is? It's part of trapping and grappling.

Thank you, I was getting ready to say the same. It's just like saying wing chun wouldn't be effective just cause no martial artist used it effectivily in MMA. But logic tells you that, it's not the style of the fighter that makes the fight but rather fighter that makes the style. Just cause one fighter couldn't use it effectivily, doesn't mean the other fighter couldn't.

But the thing is, nobody has ever even tried to use sidekicks, until Cung Le came into MMA. That right there should make more Martial Artists more open minded to other techniques, instead of limiting oneself to what you see all the time. Cung Le, like Bruce Lee, uses the sidekick very effectivily, and he did it against one of the best submission ground fighters of all time in frank shamrock.

And yes, Randy Couture's dirty boxing hand on the neck is part of trapping, this tells me you've studied the art of trapping, cause you know a lot about it. If Randy can make that effective, than a well rounded martial artist who was real good at it, would demolish a stand up fighter would the technique.

[sugarngold]

In this vid we see one of Bruce Lee's pupils - Joe Lewis - fighting in what was considered the first ever full contact kickboxing match.

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[Arka]

In this vid we see one of Bruce Lee's pupils - Joe Lewis - fighting in what was considered the first ever full contact kickboxing match.

67NdOX2lj-k
Didn't muay thai precede all of this? It was a well developed sport. by the time of the nineteenth century.

As for for martial art,with the combination of striking and grappling,you have military systems of krav maga and combat sambo by the middle of the twentieth century after the second world war and of course you have jujitsu.

As for MMA,if you want to go really back in time,you have pankration of the ancient Greeks over 2000 years ago.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]
[Only registered and activated users can see links]
As for Joe Lewis he has said some things,which may be interpreted as not being totally worshipful of Bruce.
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

"DW Forum - I read a story about Bruce going over to your house and not being impressed with the size of your heavy bag and called it a girls bag, and I think he asked Herb Jackson was it, to make him a man sized man. It weighed 700lbs and if I remember the story correctly you along with Bob Wall set it up for him and then hid in a bush. Bruce kicked it and landed in a heap. I hope I've got this all right or else I'll look like a bit of a dip Anyway can you remember this day and what did you think when he kicked the bag and landed on the floor. Did he ever move the big bag at all, what was his sidekick power like on the bag?
Joe Lewis - I do not remember much about that 700 pound bag. It sounds like one of those old rumors. Bruce had a good fast side kick but if you watch some of those old atapes, you can tell he always lunged from too great a distance. This makes the bag move but throws your timing way off. You need to be close to the tirget when you fire so your reaction time and your response time are quick, not just one. Timeing speed is both.You should never work with a bag weighing more than l00 pounds, and I mean never. If anyone tells you different, they do not know what they are talking about. Bannana bags are different for the low cut kicks.
DW Forum - Lately I've heard things like "Bruce Lee could hit seven times in a second"...I personally believe it is crap. I mean how could anybody test speed of punches without todays fast-cameras and all that stuff?I'm told my wing chun instructor punches seven hits on a second (in the air of course).Have you heard of it? I guess it's a proof of a quickness....maybe Bruce talked about it?
Joe Lewis -

Please, drop all the stuff you've heard.

Martial arts is full of nonsense. Only believe what you have seen or can prove.


Show me more than three real punches in a second and I will kiss your butt. ON film, Ali's jab took 7 frames to complete, and Sugar Ray's took 9 frames. A second of film takes 24 frames. Simple math guys. Three real punches per second and that is it. Less talk and more proof. Let's get in the ring and show off some of these secrets. They pay millions of dollars. That beats eating rice all your life and teaching martial arts forever anytime?"

[sugarngold]

In this ultra rare clip - Bruce Lee appears to have a brief sparring session with a Karate fighter.

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[Beebs]

That is pretty cool, you can only see the very end of the liver kick that knocks him down though.

[Wilhelm]

Men have been punching each other since man existed, every last nuance of punching has been discovered and distilled down to what works, effectively, against another man; and yet nobody who gets paid to punch, ever traps.

I guess the way I see this is that nobody who fights anyone ELSE who gets paid to punch (or trains heavily in it...you know what I mean) ever traps. When I see traps used is when there are hands out there in range to be trapped; good punchers learn right away to bring their hands back very quickly and this seems to limit trapping opportunities. Also, if I saw someone trying to grab in the way needed to trap, the first thing I'd do is throw a feint and see what's open.

It seems that there is a great deal of martial arts that is mostly only effective against people who aren't good at fighting. So far, trapping seems to me to fit into this category.

[Arka]

He actually ko'ed a Thaiboxer on the set of the filming of the big bosss, it was confirmed by a director who saw the fight. Besides, Bruce incorporated Thaiboxing in his style Jeet Kuno Do. The whole point I was trying to make was his explosive speed seperated him from everyone else.

A professional kickboxer? What was his name.What was he doing on the set of a Hollywood film. Do you have a link for what you just stated?I thought it was just a extra on the set.The story keeps changing as they usually do with Lee so as to make the story more lustrous to his legend.

If you don't think speed doesn't account for anything, than take a look at roy jones in his prime, who had bad technique, but his speed made him overcome techinical mishaps.
Roy Jones had perfect punching technique to go with his reflexes and fast footwork my friend.The way he punched may he used as a model to teach beginners.Incidentally,Roy also has 57 professional fights and hundred of amateur fights to hone his craft.


Bruce had great techinque to go along with his blinding speed. I don't think too many guys get in on him(unless there very fast) without getting tagged with some meaningful punches or kicks. Anyway, we can argue all day about it, we'll never know.


Worthless without any well documented competitive fights.These demonstrations put on for the public seems like the choreographed aikido demonstrations I see on youtube.The relationship they have to MMA is the same as that of professional wrestling to actual grappling.A lot of the techniques are spectacular to look at and lethal against non-professionals,but discarded by the vast majority of actual practitioners.

[sugarngold]

Wilhelm & Arka: We aren't really arguing about Bruce Lee's exploits here. This is about techniques and philosophies that you can take away into your own training. If you don't think trapping works - then it doesn't work for you. One of Bruce's teachings was always "find the cause of your ignorance" meaning don't limit yourself to what you think you know and don't limit yourself to following someone else's teachings blindly. Experiment. Become aware of the totality of combat which ranges from punching to kicking to trapping to grappling to submissions. Trapping is as simple as tying up at the collar and elbow and knowing how to knee, headbutt and elbow from there. It doesn't have to be elaborate or a "classical mess" as Bruce Lee might say. If these things don't work for you - they don't work for you - but never close your mind to new avenues of self expression without contemplation. Learn to express yourself completely in any situation.

[Wilhelm]

Wilhelm & Arka: We aren't really arguing about Bruce Lee's exploits here. This is about techniques and philosophies that you can take away into your own training. If you don't think trapping works - then it doesn't work for you. One of Bruce's teachings was always "find the cause of your ignorance" meaning don't limit yourself to what you think you know and don't limit yourself to following someone else's teachings blindly. Experiment. Become aware of the totality of combat which ranges from punching to kicking to trapping to grappling to submissions. Trapping is as simple as tying up at the collar and elbow and knowing how to knee, headbutt and elbow from there. It doesn't have to be elaborate or a "classical mess" as Bruce Lee might say. If these things don't work for you - they don't work for you - but never close your mind to new avenues of self expression without contemplation. Learn to express yourself completely in any situation.

What I'm talking about when I say "trapping" is not dirty boxing or Thai clinch, it's the methods used off of blocking punches, usually demonstrated from the "bridge" reference point. The "pac sau (sp?)" sort of stuff that looks great when the hands are left out there. I would LOVE to be able to pull that sort of thing off when I'm training, and I may try if I ever see an opportunity. You could of course say that I'm not seeing the openings because I don't work it as hard as I should, and you may very well be right. Here's the thing; when I see someone better than me work their angles and slips in boxing, I work on them and know how they should work, and after a while they start to work for me. When I keep getting caught with kick after kick and can't land mine, I watch what the other guy does and try to emulate that, and it gets better. I don't have that reference point for trapping. Do you have any competitive footage of this sort of thing working?

[sugarngold]

In short - no. Reference points don't really work against boxing.

[sugarngold]

In short - no. Reference points don't really work against boxing.

That said, using trapping to box is not really the effective way to trap. The goal should never be to create a n attachment so one can trap and then hit. The goal is to attack - then when obstacles are encountered - clear them out of the way and strike again. It's always a bit misleading to say that trapping doesn't work against boxing because it's not really supposed to be used in that manner. It's like saying to a boxer that they can't throw a right cross or a hook and then telling them boxing is ineffective. Or like watching someone practice with a heavy bag and then telling them it's easy to kick a bag when no one is punching back or trying to clinch them.

Like training with a heavy bag or a double end bag or training position escapes in jiujitsu - practicing pak sau, lop sau or sticky hands drills are merely methods of sharpening one's tools. Eventually these tools have to be applied in sparring. But when jabbing one's sparring partner in the eyes is prohibited - that generally leads one back to doing one and two step training drills in order to build these techniques.

The primary attack should be the strike to the groin or jabbing fingers to the eyes. Almost anyone that is jabbed in the eyes will react to it - often throwing their hands up and trying to cover up. This can create an attachment that could be used to move in with further attacks.

In closing - the goal is not just to create a trap - but to attack your opponent where they are most vulnerable - in this case the eyes - with the closest weapon.

Here is JKD instructor and former shooto champion Yori Nakamura demonstrating the jabbing fingers as employed in JKD.

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[sugarngold]

One does not accumulate but eliminate. It is not daily increase but daily decrease. The height of cultivation always runs to simplicity.
–Bruce Lee


In this clip, Burton Richardson explains the science behind JKD.

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In this clip Shooto champion Yori Nakamura explains the basic progressive indirect attack.

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[sugarngold]

Scurlaruntings - you are the poster that has the most experience in wing chun - please add something to this discussion.

[ShadowWorks]

Scurlaruntings - you are the poster that has the most experience in wing chun - please add something to this discussion.

There are many forums of Wing Chun/Tsun today, these all differ from the original Wing Chun developed by the Buddhist Nun, Ng Muof and her first student Yim Wing Chun, JKD is not a fighting style but a fighting system which is modular, like a tree you are the base and the brances are what ever style works, the idea is to have as many brances as you can develop and balance with other, to grow as much as you can, a tree with only one branch is naked and will be at the mercy of a storm.

[Arka]

Supposing you try to target an attacker's eye with an open hand strike,aren't you at a risk of damaging your fingers if you miss and hit their skull? Wouldn't a gouging of the eyes by your thumb in close be more effective?

I've seen boxers gouge their opponents with thumb strikes in close.
Ali apparently broke Terrell's bone in his eyesocket damaging the soft tissue and muscles behind Terrell's eye.If this fight used as an example of effective eye gouging in JKD?

Larry Holmes against Scott Frank is another good example of one...

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Below the belt strikes? How about classic Golota?
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Shame about Adrzej.He could really dish out the brain damage,but he had to go for the groin...:-(

Tony Galento's was famous for his fouls too.Apparently he almost blinded Lou Nova using just his thumbs.

[sugarngold]

Arka - I have some answers to some of your questions - but I can't find the proper online resources so that means scanning and hosting photos to the web to help illustrate my point which I just haven't had the time to do over the holidays.

But to put it shortly - if it works - use it. Doesn't matter what you call it or where it comes from.

[ShadowWorks]

Doesn't matter what you call it or where it comes from.

This is JKD

[Primenal]

If the MMA fighters today trained HALF AS HARD as Bruce Lee did they would be true badasses.
I don't see how anybody doesn't see how Bruce Lee could have done well. Shit, the man trained like 6 days a week, like 6-8 hours a day, and on the 7th day he sparred.
How many UFC fighters you know train like that?
If MMA were on the map, and he chose to fight in it...This guy could have been ready for competition within a few months, and dominated most of them! The guy already had unhuman conditioning, incredible power for his size, flexibility, great hands, great kicks (even if some of them were illegal), etc. This man could have competed in ANYTHING he set his mind to, and as crazy as the man was to be THE ABSOLUTE BEST...He'd have been the best in whatever he wanted. Even if he died while trying....

[codeman99998]

If the MMA fighters today trained HALF AS HARD as Bruce Lee did they would be true badasses.
I don't see how anybody doesn't see how Bruce Lee could have done well. Shit, the man trained like 6 days a week, like 6-8 hours a day, and on the 7th day he sparred.
How many UFC fighters you know train like that?
If MMA were on the map, and he chose to fight in it...This guy could have been ready for competition within a few months, and dominated most of them! The guy already had unhuman conditioning, incredible power for his size, flexibility, great hands, great kicks (even if some of them were illegal), etc. This man could have competed in ANYTHING he set his mind to, and as crazy as the man was to be THE ABSOLUTE BEST...He'd have been the best in whatever he wanted. Even if he died while trying....

Forrest Griffin, Rich Franklin and Sean Sherk all train like that. Not the same regiment of course, but they all train extremely extremely hard. Their lives are truly devoted to fighting.

[Beebs]

If the MMA fighters today trained HALF AS HARD as Bruce Lee did they would be true badasses.
I don't see how anybody doesn't see how Bruce Lee could have done well. Shit, the man trained like 6 days a week, like 6-8 hours a day, and on the 7th day he sparred.
How many UFC fighters you know train like that?
If MMA were on the map, and he chose to fight in it...This guy could have been ready for competition within a few months, and dominated most of them! The guy already had unhuman conditioning, incredible power for his size, flexibility, great hands, great kicks (even if some of them were illegal), etc. This man could have competed in ANYTHING he set his mind to, and as crazy as the man was to be THE ABSOLUTE BEST...He'd have been the best in whatever he wanted. Even if he died while trying....

MMA fighters train full contact MMA sparring against other MMA fighters, that alone is better training than Lee ever did.

GSP trains with the Olympic wrestling team, Lee never did; Kerr, Koscheck, Lesnar, Coleman, Randleman, and more were all NCAA national wrestling champions, last I checked they train as hard as anybody in sport; Henderson, Erikson, Couture, and Trigg all wrestled for national teams in international competitions or the olympics, again harder than anything Lee did. The dozens of others who made all-American, top 8 in the country, also had to train their ass off every day. Kid Yamamoto was a top prospect for the Olympics in Japan.

Lindland won a silver medal in wrestling, Natsula and Yoshida won a gold medal in Judo, all much harder training than anything Lee ever did. Think about that, do you have any idea how much work is required to win an olympic medal? Any idea?

The Nogueria brothers train with the Cuban national boxing team, Rogerio was the South American amateur boxing champion; yet again harder than anything Lee has ever done.

GSP trains with pro boxers, so does Aleksander Emelieanko, so has BJ Penn, so has Randy Couture, so has Anrdrei Arlovski; there were a lot of pro boxers in Bruce's day, why didn't he ever train with them? Too hard?

Sergei Kharitanov was a bronze medalist in the pan Asian games in boxing.

BJ Penn, Demian Maia, Dean Lister, Ricardo Arona, Pe de Pano, Werdum, Gonzaga, and I'm sure I am forgetting some where all world champions in BJJ.

Fedor was 3rd in Russia in Judo; and multiple time world champion in Sambo; do you have any idea how hard you have to train in Judo to get 3rd in the entire nation of Russia? Any idea?

Vale Tudo was alive and well in Bruce Lee's life time, he was aware of it, he chose not to fight in it; if he thought he was the best fighter there were plenty of people willing and ABLE to show him otherwise, he knew better.

We can give him the benefit of the doubt, maybe he just didn't know enough about BJJ to train hard in it; but Judo, Wrestling, and Boxing have always been the gold standard in combat athletics, yet Bruce never even once seriously tried to accomplish anything in any of them; he won one minor event in Hong Kong in boxing that nobody knows the name of, big deal.

So say all you want about MMA, make all the assumptions about what Bruce Lee would have done, but we do know what he did not do, he did not work nearly as hard as any single one of the fighters I listed.

If he really wanted to be a great fighter, he would have put some real work in Judo, Wrestling, or Boxing; he never did.

So don't tell me about how much harder he worked than MMA fighters, because that is a bunch of shit, he never actually followed through with anything, he never once put himself to the real tests available, he never once did what it takes to call himself a fighter, let alone the best fighter.







So regarding your point that he could have "been the best in anything he wanted to" there are only two answers when you look at the facts

Either
1) He tried and failed because he was not good enough or did not work hard enough

or

2) He didn't want to be a fighter, because he never even tried.


Either way, you are full of shit, because he has nothing on any of the men listed who did the things you claim Bruce could have done.

[sugarngold]

MMA fighters train full contact MMA sparring against other MMA fighters, that alone is better training than Lee ever did.

GSP trains with the Olympic wrestling team, Lee never did; Kerr, Koscheck, Lesnar, Coleman, Randleman, and more were all NCAA national wrestling champions, last I checked they train as hard as anybody in sport; Henderson, Erikson, Couture, and Trigg all wrestled for national teams in international competitions or the olympics, again harder than anything Lee did. The dozens of others who made all-American, top 8 in the country, also had to train their ass off every day. Kid Yamamoto was a top prospect for the Olympics in Japan.

Lindland won a silver medal in wrestling, Natsula and Yoshida won a gold medal in Judo, all much harder training than anything Lee ever did. Think about that, do you have any idea how much work is required to win an olympic medal? Any idea?

The Nogueria brothers train with the Cuban national boxing team, Rogerio was the South American amateur boxing champion; yet again harder than anything Lee has ever done.

GSP trains with pro boxers, so does Aleksander Emelieanko, so has BJ Penn, so has Randy Couture, so has Anrdrei Arlovski; there were a lot of pro boxers in Bruce's day, why didn't he ever train with them? Too hard?

Sergei Kharitanov was a bronze medalist in the pan Asian games in boxing.

BJ Penn, Demian Maia, Dean Lister, Ricardo Arona, Pe de Pano, Werdum, Gonzaga, and I'm sure I am forgetting some where all world champions in BJJ.

Fedor was 3rd in Russia in Judo; and multiple time world champion in Sambo; do you have any idea how hard you have to train in Judo to get 3rd in the entire nation of Russia? Any idea?

Vale Tudo was alive and well in Bruce Lee's life time, he was aware of it, he chose not to fight in it; if he thought he was the best fighter there were plenty of people willing and ABLE to show him otherwise, he knew better.

We can give him the benefit of the doubt, maybe he just didn't know enough about BJJ to train hard in it; but Judo, Wrestling, and Boxing have always been the gold standard in combat athletics, yet Bruce never even once seriously tried to accomplish anything in any of them; he won one minor event in Hong Kong in boxing that nobody knows the name of, big deal.

So say all you want about MMA, make all the assumptions about what Bruce Lee would have done, but we do know what he did not do, he did not work nearly as hard as any single one of the fighters I listed.

If he really wanted to be a great fighter, he would have put some real work in Judo, Wrestling, or Boxing; he never did.

So don't tell me about how much harder he worked than MMA fighters, because that is a bunch of shit, he never actually followed through with anything, he never once put himself to the real tests available, he never once did what it takes to call himself a fighter, let alone the best fighter.







So regarding your point that he could have "been the best in anything he wanted to" there are only two answers when you look at the facts

Either
1) He tried and failed because he was not good enough or did not work hard enough

or

2) He didn't want to be a fighter, because he never even tried.


Either way, you are full of shit, because he has nothing on any of the men listed who did the things you claim Bruce could have done.

Great post, Beebs. To his credit, Lee did train with world champions in judo, karate, tang soo do, taekwondo and such.

[sugarngold]

I think Beebs has said everything there is to say on the subject of Bruce Lee vs MMA, so let's close the book on that one.

Now we can get back to talking about the philosophies, concepts and strategies of JKD that one might find useful in the streets or even in MMA.

[sugarngold]

:ko

It's UFC fight week again - so in honor of Bruce Lee's number one fan and current UFC middleweight King Anderson Silva. . .el BUMPO.

[scurlaruntings]

Scurlaruntings - you are the poster that has the most experience in wing chun - please add something to this discussion.Dude man get your own slang! How you going to put Sugar Shane Country on your avatar! I own that! I got the patent! :fire And what you want to know about Wing Chun? My sticky fingers is still pretty good :yep

[sugarngold]

Well, I figured since my username has "Sugar" in it - it would be obvious that I have always been a Sugar Shane fan. I figured there was enough love for the Sugar to go around. I couldn't think of anything better than "Sugar Shane Country" to put over my avatar - but if anyone asks - you still have the patent.


And what I want to know about wing chun is why no one is using it properly in MMA. People keep clowning on trapping and saying that it's not effective - when it reality it's more effective in street situations than in rules-regulated-combat that prohibits strikes that specifically target weak points - as wing chun does.

So - whatever insight you have to offer would be greatly appreciated.

[scurlaruntings]

Well, I figured since my username has "Sugar" in it - it would be obvious that I have always been a Sugar Shane fan. I figured there was enough love for the Sugar to go around. I couldn't think of anything better than "Sugar Shane Country" to put over my avatar - but if anyone asks - you still have the patent.


And what I want to know about wing chun is why no one is using it properly in MMA. People keep clowning on trapping and saying that it's not effective - when it reality it's more effective in street situations than in rules-regulated-combat that prohibits strikes that specifically target weak points - as wing chun does.

So - whatever insight you have to offer would be greatly appreciated.
Wing Chun wont ever be effective in MMA because the striking is simply not polished enough. There is very little emphasis on using the legs and the hand strikes are in some cases open palm strikes or just simple centre line punching in a rapid fashion. Nice to watch but in a real fight not that effective for incapacitating your opponent quickly. That being said Wing Chun is still a VERY effective MA that employs traditional styles and techniques. When i used to train we were often told to work and spar with boxers to improve and adapt our striking techniques. Ironically the cross arm (Old school method of blocking punches) is very similar to blocks used in Wing Chun. The emphasis though is more on knowing anatomy as in where to hit an opponent to hurt them ( hence the centre line ) and reacting to touch (hence techniques like sticky fingers) and building those neural pathways so that you know how to react to certain strikes without even thinking about it. It gets alot more interesting as you move up the levels and start using weapons. But like most traditional styles of Gung Fu its not really applicable to street combat. BUT its far more practical that theatrical styles like Wu Shu.

[sugarngold]

Thanks for the response.

So you don't think the biu jee fingerjab to the eyes would be effective in combination with other techniques? Even in actual MMA bouts - we see accidental eye pokes disorient fighters all the time.

[scurlaruntings]

Thanks for the response.

So you don't think the biu jee fingerjab to the eyes would be effective in combination with other techniques? Even in actual MMA bouts - we see accidental eye pokes disorient fighters all the time.Eye jabs will never be allowed in MMA. There are some strikes in Wing Chun that can maim you possibly permanently espcially the downwards strikes to knee caps. They cant be practised with full contact for obvious reasons.

[sugarngold]

Eye jabs will never be allowed in MMA. There are some strikes in Wing Chun that can maim you possibly permanently espcially the downwards strikes to knee caps. They cant be practised with full contact for obvious reasons.

Exactly. Which is what makes them effective - just not in MMA. I never trained for MMA - but rather focused on street self defense so it never made sense to me to discount such techniques.

[sugarngold]

TWZBSBab-Es

[Canibus81]

MMA fighters train full contact MMA sparring against other MMA fighters, that alone is better training than Lee ever did.

GSP trains with the Olympic wrestling team, Lee never did; Kerr, Koscheck, Lesnar, Coleman, Randleman, and more were all NCAA national wrestling champions, last I checked they train as hard as anybody in sport; Henderson, Erikson, Couture, and Trigg all wrestled for national teams in international competitions or the olympics, again harder than anything Lee did. The dozens of others who made all-American, top 8 in the country, also had to train their ass off every day. Kid Yamamoto was a top prospect for the Olympics in Japan.

Lindland won a silver medal in wrestling, Natsula and Yoshida won a gold medal in Judo, all much harder training than anything Lee ever did. Think about that, do you have any idea how much work is required to win an olympic medal? Any idea?

The Nogueria brothers train with the Cuban national boxing team, Rogerio was the South American amateur boxing champion; yet again harder than anything Lee has ever done.

GSP trains with pro boxers, so does Aleksander Emelieanko, so has BJ Penn, so has Randy Couture, so has Anrdrei Arlovski; there were a lot of pro boxers in Bruce's day, why didn't he ever train with them? Too hard?

Sergei Kharitanov was a bronze medalist in the pan Asian games in boxing.

BJ Penn, Demian Maia, Dean Lister, Ricardo Arona, Pe de Pano, Werdum, Gonzaga, and I'm sure I am forgetting some where all world champions in BJJ.

Fedor was 3rd in Russia in Judo; and multiple time world champion in Sambo; do you have any idea how hard you have to train in Judo to get 3rd in the entire nation of Russia? Any idea?

Vale Tudo was alive and well in Bruce Lee's life time, he was aware of it, he chose not to fight in it; if he thought he was the best fighter there were plenty of people willing and ABLE to show him otherwise, he knew better.

We can give him the benefit of the doubt, maybe he just didn't know enough about BJJ to train hard in it; but Judo, Wrestling, and Boxing have always been the gold standard in combat athletics, yet Bruce never even once seriously tried to accomplish anything in any of them; he won one minor event in Hong Kong in boxing that nobody knows the name of, big deal.

So say all you want about MMA, make all the assumptions about what Bruce Lee would have done, but we do know what he did not do, he did not work nearly as hard as any single one of the fighters I listed.

If he really wanted to be a great fighter, he would have put some real work in Judo, Wrestling, or Boxing; he never did.

So don't tell me about how much harder he worked than MMA fighters, because that is a bunch of shit, he never actually followed through with anything, he never once put himself to the real tests available, he never once did what it takes to call himself a fighter, let alone the best fighter.







So regarding your point that he could have "been the best in anything he wanted to" there are only two answers when you look at the facts

Either
1) He tried and failed because he was not good enough or did not work hard enough

or

2) He didn't want to be a fighter, because he never even tried.


Either way, you are full of shit, because he has nothing on any of the men listed who did the things you claim Bruce could have done.

I definetly don't feel like getting into this again but here's my take on some things you said:


Like suargnold had already pointed out, Lee did train with world champions. Lee has already pointed out all the different benefits of cross training and not limiting yourself to one style, infact his style is purely that in itself. You just pointed out that GSP trains with olympic wrestlers but you forgot to mention that GSP also didn't have a wrestling pedigree and he dominated guys who did. So just cause a fighter doesn't have a pedigree in a certain style doesn't mean(in GSP's case it proves it's point)that the fighter couldn't execute the techinques as good as somebody who train specificly in that one style, considering the fighter trains and works with somebody who's good at it.
Bruce Lee was not only a very intelligent martial Artist with a very good Martial Arts IQ, but he was a fast learner as well and if you have examined Bruce Lee's history like you so boldly make it out to be, than you'd know this.

And Bruce Lee might have not worked harder, but he worked just as hard in the Arts, as much as anybody else. The amount of training, research, and stuff he put his body thru wasn't just for show. The problem with you is, your basing everything off competitions and making it seem like just cause a martial artist didn't compete in a certain arena that he wouldn't last, which isn't true at all. There's plenty of martial artists that don't compete in the ufc, that nobody has heard of and would annilate the guys we do know and it also tells me you have a limited way of thinking in that matter.

And Bruce Lee has had plenty of challenge matches, not just when he came to america but when he trained under Yip Man his wing chun sifu. He would have rooftop battles in Hong Kong with another training partner named William Cheung who also trained under Yip Man. Even one of Bruce's quotes he said that knowing is not enough, we must apply. Trust me, he was way ahead of the game on these things.

You also forgot to mention that they didn't have any MMA events, K-1, or the stuff we got today back than in his time, so all there were, was either street fights or challenges matches, which would of been very hard to capture on camera in those days because cameras were very expensive and hard to get at that time period. Even some of the high profile events they didn't have on film. Now I know Bruce Lee was human but he was special. If he wasn't, we still wouldn't be talking about him today. You have your opinion on the hypethical fights with Lee, but you spend more time bashing him and trying prove a point of why he's not that good and I see it in all your posts regarding Bruce Lee. One things for sure though, none of the fighters that compete in MMA has Bruce's blinding speed and that's one of the biggest key ingredients too all great fighters, is speed. Even boxing proves that. Usually the guys with tremedous speed that move up in weight do very well, but the punchers don't because they try and bang with bigger and stronger guys.

But this debate should be put bed because everybody is gonna have a different opinion on this and sugarnold I see you must actually train in the arts with an openmind because you give credit where credit is due.

[Canibus81]

TWZBSBab-Es

Your also giving an opinion of a former fighter, who's probably had many of predictions wrong on fights or fighters. The so called experts even get tons of fights wrong.

[sugarngold]

Here's some more JKD in action through Bruce Lee's #1 fighting disciple, Joe Lewis.

Bruce always emphasized that it was better to have one or two techniques that were mastered and used with focused intent than to try to use a whirling mess of techniques.

Here's what a patented sidekick can do.

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PmZy3owLo9Q

[sugarngold]

Your also giving an opinion of a former fighter, who's probably had many of predictions wrong on fights or fighters. The so called experts even get tons of fights wrong.

Yeah well - um I think it's more than a little naive to think that everyone in the world can learn jiujutsu except Bruce Lee. Lee already had the stand up skills to compete in his weight class - so it's not improbable to say that with supplemental jiujutsu and proper seasoning - Bruce Lee would have been able to compete against elite fighters in MMA.

[birddog]

This is a debate that will never have an answer, or an end since Lee died over 35 years ago YIKES.

What Lee did was come along at a time that was just right, and was a catalyst for a martial arts craze, and ended up becoming the lead catalyst.

He inspired folks, got them involved with the help of the media at that time.

Absorb what is usefull, was not a new concept but he was the right person at the right time, with a platform and skills, that folks could see. Were others folks better fighters, more knowledgeable etc. maybe. does it matter.

Might it had happened otherwise, maybe probably, who knows.

Lee came along at the right time, and most of modern martial arts popularity are due to that.

Could have he beaten joe smith today in an MMA bout is not the issue. Is that really relavent, can a Spartan beat a Samurai? It's not the point.

He was the guy that inspired allot of what is today. And for that we should all be happy.

[sugarngold]

He was the guy that inspired allot of what is today. And for that we should all be happy.


Great comment. That's exactly what I've been trying to say in this thread. The whole Bruce Lee in MMA debate is rather futile.

[Grievesy]

Great comment. That's exactly what I've been trying to say in this thread. The whole Bruce Lee in MMA debate is rather futile.

Didn't you start this debate? Just saying......:D

[sugarngold]

Didn't you start this debate? Just saying......:D

Truth be told - I didn't start the Bruce Lee in MMA debate - but I couldn't help but respond to it.


I started this thread to share Bruce Lee's philosophies because I believe they are as essential to the development of a martial artist as reading the Book of Five Rings or The Art of War. I know it's pretentious - but I've always been very philosophical as well as practical in my approach to martial arts.

[Grievesy]

Truth be told - I didn't start the Bruce Lee in MMA debate - but I couldn't help but respond to it.


I started this thread to share Bruce Lee's philosophies because I believe they are as essential to the development of a martial artist as reading the Book of Five Rings or The Art of War. I know it's pretentious - but I've always been very philosophical as well as practical in my approach to martial arts.

Fair enough.

I've never bought into the whole spiritual side or whatever or really just never paid much attention. Like when I did Taekwondo, the doing all the patterns or pumsae as the Koreans call it was never really my thing. I just wanna know the best way to kick a guy in the head (and look really badass doing it).:smoke

Looking back on it though, I miss it. That's why I'm looking around for a Muay Thai gym in my area. These martial arts are excellent just to stay in shape, aswell as learning self defence.

[sugarngold]

Video of Eric Paulson helping train Brock Lesnar.

pkQu4r_Qyj8&NR=1

[P4p King]

Bruce lee was a nobody, In the movie enter the dragon they had to do separete shoots of them fighting, because of the possibility of them getting into an actual fight. But it wouldn't matter because Chuck would have won.... why? because he was a 10x kick-boxing world champ and Bruce lee was a nobody with a philosophy degree.

PS. Bruce was not a competitor, so for all we know, he's just a guy who study martial art principles...

[Canibus81]

Yeah well - um I think it's more than a little naive to think that everyone in the world can learn jiujutsu except Bruce Lee. Lee already had the stand up skills to compete in his weight class - so it's not improbable to say that with supplemental jiujutsu and proper seasoning - Bruce Lee would have been able to compete against elite fighters in MMA.

He had incredible stand up skills compared to MMA fighters of today. None of the MMA fighters stand up ability today impresses me except Cung Le. He Might the best I've seen so fAR. And like you've touched on, Bruce Lee wasn't just a standup fighter, so he wouldn't just come in with one game plain. He caught on quick with things ala GSP with his wrestling and I'd be very confident that would be a definite advantage in his favor.

The centerline thoery was a techinque that most MMA fighters don't understand and how effective it can't be. It applies to when your even shoving an opponent. If you watched after he trapped Norris hands in the way of the dragon in the fight scene, he used his centerline and shoved him after the combo he hit him with, so that was a very effective thing in close quarters.

[kflex101]

A professional kickboxer? What was his name.What was he doing on the set of a Hollywood film. Do you have a link for what you just stated?I thought it was just a extra on the set.The story keeps changing as they usually do with Lee so as to make the story more lustrous to his legend.

Roy Jones had perfect punching technique to go with his reflexes and fast footwork my friend.The way he punched may he used as a model to teach beginners.Incidentally,Roy also has 57 professional fights and hundred of amateur fights to hone his craft.




Worthless without any well documented competitive fights.These demonstrations put on for the public seems like the choreographed aikido demonstrations I see on youtube.The relationship they have to MMA is the same as that of professional wrestling to actual grappling.A lot of the techniques are spectacular to look at and lethal against non-professionals,but discarded by the vast majority of actual practitioners.


Great points.
I almost feel sorry for Bruce Lee now his time is well past.
The poor guy has been put on such a ridiculous pedestal that it actually detracts from the things he did achieve.

Let's look at the facts on Bruce. He was a great martial arts innovator, brought martial arts to the mainstream, gained real crossover appeal for asian actors, directors and martial artists as well as giving credibility for his chosen art.

Coversley he was a 135lb, 5'7 martial artists who not only did not compete in any competitive events as an adult but even refused to do any full contact sparring!
While he maintained some good fitness and above average strength for his weight, these in context mean very little.

Talk to any competitive fighter of any discipline and they wil tell you that fights against real competition and battle hardening through full contact sparring are the most important elements of becoming a succesful fighter.

I remeber watching a documentary about Kung Fu vs Muay Thai years ago and they had some examples of when fighters of both disciplines first met. In all the contests the results were the same, early, brutal KO victories to the Muay Thai guys, why?
Because they were battle hardened competitive fighters who trained full contact at full power every day and honed their skills against progressivley better competition. By reports the Kung Fu guys thought they were absolutely barbaric!
The Kung Fu guys who had trained in the typical martial arts way had no chance when the situations became realistic.

In theory there was nothing wrong with what they had learned, and they were all fit, fast and strong yet this was way out if their comfort zone - sadly one that their training 'should' have prepared them for.

So back to Bruce. How on earth could we expect a guy half the size of todays heavyweights with no "real" fight training or even full contact sparring (and skills limited to stand up) have a chance against todays speaclist athletes?
We wouldn't and we shouldn't and unfortunately those who do just degenerate from the legacy of Bruce, which of course should be respected for what it is without exageration.

[kflex101]

He had incredible stand up skills compared to MMA fighters of today. None of the MMA fighters stand up ability today impresses me except Cung Le. He Might the best I've seen so fAR. And like you've touched on, Bruce Lee wasn't just a standup fighter, so he wouldn't just come in with one game plain. He caught on quick with things ala GSP with his wrestling and I'd be very confident that would be a definite advantage in his favor.

The centerline thoery was a techinque that most MMA fighters don't understand and how effective it can't be. It applies to when your even shoving an opponent. If you watched after he trapped Norris hands in the way of the dragon in the fight scene, he used his centerline and shoved him after the combo he hit him with, so that was a very effective thing in close quarters.


You are judging them both by very very different contexts!

No one looks pretty while their opponent is trying to rip their head off, especially if that guy is close in levels of skills and experience.

Imagine if someone came on here posting staged videos of themselves or a mate, fight scenes they have choreographed for weeks.
The suggestion that this would somehow have any crossover in a real fighting application would be laughed off so hard!

Like suggesting the guy who is great at F1 simulation will be the next Michael Schumacher, the guitar hero champ will be the next Angus Young etc.

The only way to accurately evaluate whether someone is/would be a good fighter is to look at their experience and record against real opposition.
With Bruce just like Jean Claude Van Damne they have nothing to go on. At a stretch we can use physical attributes as a gauge, but again here he would fall woefully short (excuse the pun) as he was very undersized compared to today's fighters.

It is insulting to today's champs to suggest Bruce would come anywhere near them, even the lightweights who have experience of modern conditioning, a larger variety of technique (modern ground game is so much more developed) and the all important battle hardening as well as proven fight records.
While Bruce if he were alive today would likely have had the tools to develop himself into a good competitive fighter, he would have needed to start sparring hard for a start to get anywhere near them!

[sugarngold]

Bruce lee was a nobody, In the movie enter the dragon they had to do separete shoots of them fighting, because of the possibility of them getting into an actual fight. But it wouldn't matter because Chuck would have won.... why? because he was a 10x kick-boxing world champ and Bruce lee was a nobody with a philosophy degree.

PS. Bruce was not a competitor, so for all we know, he's just a guy who study martial art principles...

Let's put the Bruce Lee in MMA argument to bed, guys. It's been done over and over.

Just in case no one noticed - Brock Lesnar is the UFC heavyweight champion. And who is helping to train him? Eric Paulson. Eric Paulson was trained in Jeet Kune Do by Dan Inosanto. Inosanto was Bruce Lee's chosen heir to teach JKD.

So now we have a UFC champion with supplemental JKD training. I guarantee you that's where Brock learned that quarter nelson trick that he used to neutralize Frank Mir last night.

[Canibus81]

Let's put the Bruce Lee in MMA argument to bed, guys. It's been done over and over.

Just in case no one noticed - Brock Lesnar is the UFC heavyweight champion. And who is helping to train him? Eric Paulson. Eric Paulson was trained in Jeet Kune Do by Dan Inosanto. Inosanto was Bruce Lee's chosen heir to teach JKD.

So now we have a UFC champion with supplemental JKD training. I guarantee you that's where Brock learned that quarter nelson trick that he used to neutralize Frank Mir last night.

And he had no real fight experince and became UFC heavyweight champion in only 4 fights. GSP wrestles better than a lot of the MMA fighters with large amounts of wrestling exerience so it's stupid for people to say Bruce couldn't handle himself in MMA when he already understood it in the 70's.
And he hand tremedous amount of talnet and intellignce.

[Beebs]

I guarantee you that's where Brock learned that quarter nelson trick that he used to neutralize Frank Mir last night.

Giving you the benefit of the doubt because sarcasm can be difficult to detect.

[sugarngold]

Giving you the benefit of the doubt because sarcasm can be difficult to detect.

Thanks Beebs. I was being serious. I just like pointing out that there is at least a tenuous link between the UFC heavyweight champion and Jeet Kune Do.

I have no doubt that under Eric Paulson's coaching, Brock can only become more and more dangerous in the octagon.

[sugarngold]

Jeet Kune Do: The Way of the Intercepting Fist: JKD Fingerjab


FNE9cMmYpCI

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Since no one ever believes a technique exists unless it's inside the octagon - I thought we should take a moment to look at this GIF from a recent UFC event.

In the GIF we see Mirko Crocop use a lead fingerjab to intercept his opponent's attack.

In brief - Bruce's ideas behind the fingerjab evolved out of his wing chun training when he combined it with the principles behind western fencing and boxing.

We see several Jeet Kune Do concepts at work here:

1) Closest weapon to the nearest target. Crocop uses a lead fingerjab as it is the closest weapon to his opponent.

2) Economy of motion. The shortest distance between two points is a straight line. Like the lead jab in boxing, the fingerjab lashes straight out traveling the shortest distance to the target - in this case the opponent's eyes.

3) Attack the opponents weakest point. Crocop attacks his opponent's eyes.

4) The rear hand maintains defense. Crocop keeps his left hand high as he attacks. This allows him to deflect any incoming attacks.

5) Attack by combination. Crocop takes advantage of the opening created by the fingerjab and follows up with a straight left cross.

In this fight, Crocop was able to gain the advantage by temporarily blinding his opponent with a well placed fingerjab. He followed up with a barrage of punches to stop his opponent.

[Stuntin']

I was just reading up on the life of the legendary fighter and philosopher bruce Lee and came across some interesting information. Apparently he was one of the early advocates of vitamin C. Apparently the makers of Flinstone vitamins were going to leave that vitamin out until they became familiar with Lee's work and he convinced them.

[sugarngold]

Stuntin: That's interesting. I've never heard that story before. Thanks for sharing.

[sugarngold]

Does anyone else think it's strange how this thread always floats to the top whenever there's a UFC scheduled?

[rekcutnevets]

Posted by sugarngold
Does anyone else think it's strange how this thread always floats to the top whenever there's a UFC scheduled?
It's unofficially hilarious.

[rekcutnevets]

Posted by sugarngold
Does anyone else think it's strange how this thread always floats to the top whenever there's a UFC scheduled?
It's unofficially hilarious.

[sugarngold]

It's unofficially hilarious.

So is your avatar. It could be worse - at least it's a pic of Oscar going out fighting instead of quitting on his stool.

And I just wanted to say Bruce Lee --> Dan Inosanto --> Eric Paulson -->Brock Lesnar. JKD in the UFC.

[rekcutnevets]

Posted by sugarngold
So is your avatar. It could be worse - at least it's a pic of Oscar going out fighting instead of quitting on his stool.

And I just wanted to say Bruce Lee --> Dan Inosanto --> Eric Paulson -->Brock Lesnar. JKD in the UFC.
Sorry dude. Just thought it was funny that you, the op, was the one making it float to the top.

As far as my avatar is concerned, I just found it a fitting end to Oscar's career. De la Hoya was a champion with as little character that I can think of, and I loved seeing his ultimate scheme punch him in the face.

I am actually a proponent of Jeet Kune Do, but your post seems to devalue its effectiveness. A great art, in my opinion, should begin with its founder and evolve; not devolve.

[Beebs]

So is your avatar. It could be worse - at least it's a pic of Oscar going out fighting instead of quitting on his stool.

And I just wanted to say Bruce Lee --> Dan Inosanto --> Eric Paulson -->Brock Lesnar. JKD in the UFC.

This is just a huge stretch, no actual connection at all.

Brock trains under Greg Nelson, not Paulson. The only thing of Paulsons that Lesnar is really involved with is Combat Submission Wrestling, and even that is a stretch because his training in it is so geared towards his wrestling that it is almost unrelated to Paulson. He trains BJJ with Comprido. So essentially you have him training his wrestling with Nelson, high level wrestlers he brings into camp and the U Minnesota team, his BJJ with Comprido, striking boxing and Thai with Nelson and others, and his MMA gameplanning with Nelson, who produces guys like Sherk, Larson and Thompson; guys who would dominate a equally sized Lee. Brock has nothing at all to do with Bruce Lee. Nowhere in Brocks training is anything related to Bruce Lee; everything that he uses to be a great fighter Bruce was totally ignorant too or even discouraged; he is walking proof that Lee was all talk.

To be a succesful fighter you don't start with Kung Fu and then add bits and pieces of rudimentary grappling, you don't reinvent boxing when it has more or less been perfected through centuries or actually fighting, which brings me to my main point: you don't become a good fighter or develop good ideas by never fighting and mixing clever marketing with cliché stolen "philosophical" statements.

Lesnar is really much closer to proving just how much of a fraud Lee was than how good he was.

[rekcutnevets]

Posted by sugarngold
And I just wanted to say Bruce Lee --> Dan Inosanto --> Eric Paulson -->Brock Lesnar. JKD in the UFC.
Posted by myself in response
I am actually a proponent of Jeet Kune Do, but your post seems to devalue its effectiveness. A great art, in my opinion, should begin with its founder and evolve; not devolve.
I retract that statement, as I don't think that is what you meant. Initially, I took the arrows to be greater than symbols. On a sober look, they look like arrows.

[sugarngold]

This is just a huge stretch, no actual connection at all.

Brock trains under Greg Nelson, not Paulson. The only thing of Paulsons that Lesnar is really involved with is Combat Submission Wrestling, and even that is a stretch because his training in it is so geared towards his wrestling that it is almost unrelated to Paulson. He trains BJJ with Comprido. So essentially you have him training his wrestling with Nelson, high level wrestlers he brings into camp and the U Minnesota team, his BJJ with Comprido, striking boxing and Thai with Nelson and others, and his MMA gameplanning with Nelson, who produces guys like Sherk, Larson and Thompson; guys who would dominate a equally sized Lee. Brock has nothing at all to do with Bruce Lee. Nowhere in Brocks training is anything related to Bruce Lee; everything that he uses to be a great fighter Bruce was totally ignorant too or even discouraged; he is walking proof that Lee was all talk.

To be a succesful fighter you don't start with Kung Fu and then add bits and pieces of rudimentary grappling, you don't reinvent boxing when it has more or less been perfected through centuries or actually fighting, which brings me to my main point: you don't become a good fighter or develop good ideas by never fighting and mixing clever marketing with cliché stolen "philosophical" statements.

Lesnar is really much closer to proving just how much of a fraud Lee was than how good he was.

You always crack me up, Beebs!

But Lee did fight - he just didn't compete in rules regulated simulated combat. He trained with the champions of the world: Chuck Norris, Haward Nishioka, Bob Wall, and his protege was the best karateka of the era - Joe Lewis who went on to use the principles shown to him by Lee to basically invent western style kickboxing and become the first heavyweight champion.

[Beebs]

So then claim that Lee helped develop a great kickboxer ( although he was already a talented fighter) but don't claim that a guy who spent his whole life wrestling (which aler was not a capable trainer or participant, or even beleiever) and is now training with a camp that produces guys basically the same as him is at all related to Lee.

[sugarngold]

I'm just saying that the basic principles of JKD are helping Lesnar adapt to MMA. It's not meant as any disrespect to Lesnar's wrestling credentials. It's just that JKD proponents have understood the blend of ranges that translate well to MMA for years - long before the inception of the UFC. Reading Bruce's books gave me an immediate understanding of MMA when I sat and watched UFC 1 live - minus the complexities brought in by Braizlian jiujustu - of course.

[Beebs]

I'm just saying that the basic principles of JKD are helping Lesnar adapt to MMA. It's not meant as any disrespect to Lesnar's wrestling credentials. It's just that JKD proponents have understood the blend of ranges that translate well to MMA for years - long before the inception of the UFC. Reading Bruce's books gave me an immediate understanding of MMA when I sat and watched UFC 1 live - minus the complexities brought in by Braizlian jiujustu - of course.

This claim that JKD was somehow the first or even one or the first to look at fighting as a whole is one of the least undersandable lies in the world. Jack Dempsey's How To Fight Tough was decades before and miles more advanced than any work Lee did.

[sugarngold]

This claim that JKD was somehow the first or even one or the first to look at fighting as a whole is one of the least undersandable lies in the world. Jack Dempsey's How To Fight Tough was decades before and miles more advanced than any work Lee did.

Beebs - I always enjoy these discussions with you - but I feel like I'm making a defense for an argument that Im not trying to make. I wasn't trying to claim that JKD was the first to look at combat as a whole - I mean good God - we can go all the way back to Pankration for that. I am just saying there is value in Bruce's teachings and findings. You always have more points than I have time to address - but Bruce Lee actually cited Dempsey's book on championship fighting for proper methods of throwing a punch. Lee's library was very extensive and he studied everything he could get his hands on. His favorite boxers included Jack Dempsey, Rocky Marciano, Gene Tunney, Ezzard Charles, Jersey Joe Walcott, and Cassius Clay/Muhammad Ali.

[wingchung]

Giving you the benefit of the doubt because sarcasm can be difficult to detect.

thats because your a retard.

[wingchung]

This claim that JKD was somehow the first or even one or the first to look at fighting as a whole is one of the least undersandable lies in the world. Jack Dempsey's How To Fight Tough was decades before and miles more advanced than any work Lee did.

what do you study and how long?

[sugarngold]

No need to get hostile. Beebs and I are having a civilized discussion about the arts.

[TKDfighterJoe]

No need to get hostile. Beebs and I are having a civilized discussion about the arts.lol you have no idea who you are talking to.

hostility is his middle name

[achillesthegreat]

And nobody has used sidekicks effectively until Cung Le entered MMA.
That isn't true. GSP has been using sidekicks, spinning back kicks etc for ages.

[achillesthegreat]

I guess the way I see this is that nobody who fights anyone ELSE who gets paid to punch (or trains heavily in it...you know what I mean) ever traps. When I see traps used is when there are hands out there in range to be trapped; good punchers learn right away to bring their hands back very quickly and this seems to limit trapping opportunities. Also, if I saw someone trying to grab in the way needed to trap, the first thing I'd do is throw a feint and see what's open.

It seems that there is a great deal of martial arts that is mostly only effective against people who aren't good at fighting. So far, trapping seems to me to fit into this category.

100%.

Alot of what is taught in martial arts such as Aikido can be employed on your average joe but not well trained fighters. Sure you could pull off the odd move maybe but by and large it is ineffective.

[achillesthegreat]

Forrest Griffin, Rich Franklin and Sean Sherk all train like that. Not the same regiment of course, but they all train extremely extremely hard. Their lives are truly devoted to fighting.

...and there is irrefutable proof of this. Lee was a specimen but then a I think a gymnast may be able to do what he does. We'd never say a gymnast is as finely tuned as modern mixed martial artists who train to the highest degree in at least 5 combat sports and dedicated themself 100% to it.

[achillesthegreat]

MMA fighters train full contact MMA sparring against other MMA fighters, that alone is better training than Lee ever did.

GSP trains with the Olympic wrestling team, Lee never did; Kerr, Koscheck, Lesnar, Coleman, Randleman, and more were all NCAA national wrestling champions, last I checked they train as hard as anybody in sport; Henderson, Erikson, Couture, and Trigg all wrestled for national teams in international competitions or the olympics, again harder than anything Lee did. The dozens of others who made all-American, top 8 in the country, also had to train their ass off every day. Kid Yamamoto was a top prospect for the Olympics in Japan.

Lindland won a silver medal in wrestling, Natsula and Yoshida won a gold medal in Judo, all much harder training than anything Lee ever did. Think about that, do you have any idea how much work is required to win an olympic medal? Any idea?

The Nogueria brothers train with the Cuban national boxing team, Rogerio was the South American amateur boxing champion; yet again harder than anything Lee has ever done.

GSP trains with pro boxers, so does Aleksander Emelieanko, so has BJ Penn, so has Randy Couture, so has Anrdrei Arlovski; there were a lot of pro boxers in Bruce's day, why didn't he ever train with them? Too hard?

Sergei Kharitanov was a bronze medalist in the pan Asian games in boxing.

BJ Penn, Demian Maia, Dean Lister, Ricardo Arona, Pe de Pano, Werdum, Gonzaga, and I'm sure I am forgetting some where all world champions in BJJ.

Fedor was 3rd in Russia in Judo; and multiple time world champion in Sambo; do you have any idea how hard you have to train in Judo to get 3rd in the entire nation of Russia? Any idea?

Vale Tudo was alive and well in Bruce Lee's life time, he was aware of it, he chose not to fight in it; if he thought he was the best fighter there were plenty of people willing and ABLE to show him otherwise, he knew better.

We can give him the benefit of the doubt, maybe he just didn't know enough about BJJ to train hard in it; but Judo, Wrestling, and Boxing have always been the gold standard in combat athletics, yet Bruce never even once seriously tried to accomplish anything in any of them; he won one minor event in Hong Kong in boxing that nobody knows the name of, big deal.

So say all you want about MMA, make all the assumptions about what Bruce Lee would have done, but we do know what he did not do, he did not work nearly as hard as any single one of the fighters I listed.

If he really wanted to be a great fighter, he would have put some real work in Judo, Wrestling, or Boxing; he never did.

So don't tell me about how much harder he worked than MMA fighters, because that is a bunch of shit, he never actually followed through with anything, he never once put himself to the real tests available, he never once did what it takes to call himself a fighter, let alone the best fighter.







So regarding your point that he could have "been the best in anything he wanted to" there are only two answers when you look at the facts

Either
1) He tried and failed because he was not good enough or did not work hard enough

or

2) He didn't want to be a fighter, because he never even tried.


Either way, you are full of shit, because he has nothing on any of the men listed who did the things you claim Bruce could have done.

I am a big Bruce fan but not because I believe he is the godfather of MMA.

In response to this post, Beebs just laid the smackdown.

[don owens]

Achilles, THANK YOU. The truth spoken. Lee people never want to hear it. He was not a fighter. Norris would have beaten him if they had ever fought. and Norris wasnt that good. a tournament guy mainly. a case of being in the right place at the right time. Bill Wallace, undefeated kickboxing champion for a number of years, would have humiliated Lee. Really a long list of people in different fields would have beat him. as you have made clear, he really did not put himself in the arena to be tested. great post.

[sugarngold]

I am a big Bruce fan but not because I believe he is the godfather of MMA.

In response to this post, Beebs just laid the smackdown.

Not really - I've answered every point Beebs brings up in this post in this thread already and I'm a bit tired of going over the same points again and again with someone that has more belligerence and free time than I do. The point of this thread is about sharing knowledge of the martial arts and I truly have no desire to share knowledge with individuals that think they know everything there is to know and close their minds to other avenues. I've trained with every kind of martial artist that I encounter. If others don't care to follow that philosophy I don't care to convert them.