Tunney vs Louis

[Bokaj]

What do you say, could Tunney do what Conn almost succeeded with - to defeat Louis? Could he even edge a trilogy against him?

[ChrisPontius]

It's possible, but i don't think Tunney can take the punishment when Louis catches up with him. And i think that happens before a rematch.

[Maxmomer]

Tunney could grab 1 out of 3. On one hand, I think Tunney is better than Billy Conn in most ways, on the other, a badly faded Dempsey was able to catch up with Tunney and drop him. A prime Louis could certainly do so, quicker and more effectively, and he'd be able to finish it, too.

[McGrain]

If I was picking ONE man to take on and beat Louis for two out of three it would be Tunney.

[janitor]

If I was picking ONE man to take on and beat Louis for two out of three it would be Tunney.

The only oponent who could take Louis 2 times out of 3 is old age.

[Mendoza]

Tunney UD. Come one guys, if Pastor, Conn, Walcott, and Farr could pretty much be even on rounds collectively vs Louis, then so could Tunney.

The difference is Tunney is smarter and more durable than any of the " cute " boxer types who gave Louis fits, and if you ask me he hits harder than 3 of the 4 guys I listed.

[SuzieQ49]

We have to look at styles here. Gene Tunney kept his hands too low, chin out too much to not get knocked out by the greatest puncher of all time. Tunney had the fast feet but he didnt have the amazing head movement/upperbody fast twitch reflexes needed to avoid louis punches with a low gaurd.


On a last thought, Mcgrain, and Mendoza, what heavyweight did tunney ever beat with Prime Louis Size, Speed, Power, Skill? How many heavyweights did Tunney fight that were even louis size?

[SuzieQ49]

Tunney UD. Come one guys, if Pastor, Conn, Walcott, and Farr could pretty much be even on rounds collectively vs Louis, then so could Tunney.

This is ridiculous. Louis beat Pastor 8 rounds to 2, and clearly cleanly beat Farr with a hurt right hand. Your just nitpicking here He struggled with Conn but knocked him out and Conn was just as good as gene. As for Walcott, I think Walcott was better than gene, but even a aging louis knocked walcott out.


2ndly, what heavyweight did tunney ever face as big as tommy farr?

[Longhhorn71]

Tunney UD. Come one guys, if Pastor, Conn, Walcott, and Farr could pretty much be even on rounds collectively vs Louis, then so could Tunney.

The difference is Tunney is smarter and more durable than any of the " cute " boxer types who gave Louis fits, and if you ask me he hits harder than 3 of the 4 guys I listed.

I wish we had access to the newspapers of the mid-30's when surely
the boxing "experts' were talking this hypothetical Tunney-Louis matchup.

One thing Tunney did was to study Dempsey for several years and develop the exact plan to beat him, plus the two 10 round fights played into Tunney's hands.

Tunney would bring a battleplan that would frustrate Louis.....and his right hand might do the same damage that Max Schmeling's did.

But to do it over 15 rounds....and not make a mistake will be difficult.

Louis by TKO late.

[rekcutnevets]

I believe that Dempsey was faster on his feet than Louis, even at the stage of his career in which he faced Tunney. Gene is a bad style match-up for Joe. If Tunney were succeeding the way Conn had, I would expect him to finish a similar fight.

It is just that Gene comes from an era that still didn't face all fighters. Good white fighters faced almost exclusively white fighters. Louis faced the best opposition that I know of from his time. Dempsey avoided his biggest threat, and that in turn hurts the legacy of Tunney.

I have to give Louis the nod in being able to figure out Tunney. I think Louis proved himself to be in a class most fighters from previous decades will never be able to enter with their limited resumes.

[Mendoza]

This is ridiculous. Louis beat Pastor 8 rounds to 2, and clearly cleanly beat Farr with a hurt right hand. Your just nitpicking here He struggled with Conn but knocked him out and Conn was just as good as gene. As for Walcott, I think Walcott was better than gene, but even a aging louis knocked walcott out.


2ndly, what heavyweight did tunney ever face as big as tommy farr?

Not ridiculous. Louis guard was low too, but his footwork was slow and predictable. Louis was not a fighter to adapt in the ring. Watch the flims. Shcemling out boxed Louis easy. Conn was up on points, and so was Walcott in BOTH fights. Tunney would out box Louis, but he was not fool, and was never KO'd in 83+ fights.

Here's the Louis vs Pastor I. Hardly a good showing for Louis.

OE LOUIS IN STRANGE SPECTACLE

(Associated Press, January 29, 1937)

MADISON SQUARE GARDEN, New York -- Before a howling, near-capacity crowd of18,000, Joe Louis, minus his fistic bombs, outpointed Bob Pastor, nimble ex-college boxer, tonight in a ten-round pursuit match that presented one of the strangest heavyweight spectacles witnessed in the Garden's battle-pit in many a harvest moon.

Entering the ring on the short end of 10 to 1 odds, Pastor spotted Louis
nearly twenty-five pounds, then put on a reverse brand of footwork with such success that he weathered the limit of ten full rounds without once being seriously damaged, much less knocked off his feet.

Baffled by his opponent's back-pedaling, swift-circling tactics, Louis not
only failed to explode any of the punching dynamite for which he is famous but actually was hard-pressed to gain anything like a decisive margin on points over the artfully dodging former New York University fullback.

On the Associated Press score sheet, Louis was credited with only five of the ten rounds -- the first, fourth, fifth, eighth and ninth. Pastor took the
second, third, sixth and tenth while the seventh was registered even.

Referee Arthur Donovan and the two judges, George Le Cron and Charley Lynch,scored unanimously for Louis.

The crowd, officially put at 18,864 customers, with gross gate receipts of
$111,570.60, booed the verdict lustily and jeered Louis as the obviously
crestfallen Brown Bomber left the ring.

Pastor, who emerged unscathed as the first heavyweight to go the limit with Louis since the latter's knockout last June by Max Schmeling, didn't even lose the plaster patch that he wore over his left eye when the bout started.

Louis, slow, wild and completely baffled by his rival's tactics, showed the
effects of Pastor's punches around the region of the ribs and kidneys, besides a sore nose that bled throughout the last five rounds.

Ringside critics, almost as completely wrong in their speculation over the
outcome as they were in the Louis-Schmeling bout, quickly circulated reports of a "clean up" by Broadway betting men. Plenty of money had been wagered, it was said, against the chances of Pastor going the limit.

Louis, although always seemingly dangerous with either fist, failed to land
anything resembling a knockdown punch. The Bomber's lefts jarred Pastor at intervals, including the fourth, fifth and eighth rounds, but he missed more blows than he connected. Shufflin' Joe looked so slow at times as he tried to match his smaller rival's speedy footwork that he resembled a cigar-store Indian trying to swap punches at long range with a jumping jack.

Pastor blocked many of the punches and ducked or side-stepped others, and scored on his own account with lusty clouts to the head and body.
Taken as the whole the match was more of a novelty in footwork than it was exciting or damaging to either party involved, but Pastor earned credit for outsmarting Louis at nearly every turn and showing sufficient aggressiveness in spots to make the negro look bad. The result, while disappointing to most spectators, looking for some blood and thunder, was nevertheless a blow to the prestige of the Brown Bomber.

Louis, scaling 203 1/4 to Pastor's 179, started slowly and finished the same way. Pastor, plucky as well as resourceful, actually swapped blows with his bigger,heavier-hitting foe without giving ground in the final round and won the crowd's favor by his brisk finish.

>>There you have it SuzieQ. Louis had mundo trouble with quick boxers. Pastor was even smaller than Tunney, and not nearly as good.

[Mendoza]

I believe that Dempsey was faster on his feet than Louis, even at the stage of his career in which he faced Tunney. Gene is a bad style match-up for Joe. If Tunney were succeeding the way Conn had, I would expect him to finish a similar fight.

Agreed. The Dempsey who fought Tunney had quicker feet than Louis ever did. Dempsey mabey won 3 of 20 rounds vs Tunney.

[radianttwilight]

Agreed. The Dempsey who fought Tunney had quicker feet than Louis ever did. Dempsey mabey won 3 of 20 rounds vs Tunney.

..And nearly knocked him out, despite never fighting anybody with Tunney's calibre+style and being old+rusty.

I still think prime Tunney would've matador'd his way past Dempsey, but peak Louis is another thing.

Tunney gets "Conn'd" around 11-13. His durability is untested at heavyweight and his survival skills, while good at lower weights and vs. lesser finishers, will not cut it in the ring with an ATG puncher and finisher in the Brown Bomber. He pulls straight back with his hands down like he did against Dempsey and gets owned, I'd bet the house on it.

[SuzieQ49]

Exactley. Personally I think the comment about dempsey having quicker feet than louis is irrelevant. Dempsey in 1926-27 was far past his prime, horribly rusty his timing accuracy was off he didnt know how to throw punches in bunches anymore. Louis as a puncher at his peak is at a whole different level than a faded dempsey. Louis long powerful left jab will do plenty of damage, tunney never faced a jab like that before. Louis was a stalker, he didnt need to chase down his oppopent, only stalk his prey and close the gap. no way tunney runs for 15 rounds he will have to engage louis at some point.

[Bokaj]

Of course, Louis might catch up with Tunney and finish him, but it's far from given. He failed to do so with fighters who wasn't in Tunney's class, after all.

There's obviously been some slick boxers who gave Louis far more trouble than predicted, but was there any slick boxers that was predicted to give Louis trouble but that he just rolled right over?

[Boilermaker]

We have to look at styles here. Gene Tunney kept his hands too low, chin out too much to not get knocked out by the greatest puncher of all time.

Some people might (quite reasonably) argue that he has already faced the greatest puncher of all time, and, despite getting nailed cleanly, was not even close to being knocked out.

[McGrain]

The only oponent who could take Louis 2 times out of 3 is old age.


Well yeah...but let me ask you - who do you pick? Not a man who could do it, but the man who was most likely to do it.

Do you see a Louis KO?

[SuzieQ49]

Too pick tunney to beat louis 2 out of 3 is laughable

[McGrain]

The difference is Tunney is smarter and more durable than any of the " cute " boxer types who gave Louis fits, and if you ask me he hits harder than 3 of the 4 guys I listed.

More than that, crucially in fact, the knockdown Tunney suffered. Gene was knocked down by all time great puncher Dempsey. He took a huge right, a bit roundhouse, then the Sunday punch, a great left-hook. He goes into the ropes - Dempsey has him at his mercy, and the past-peak version shows great speed to land five punches to the head as Tunney goes down. That is seven clean punches to the head thrown by one of the most destructive punchers in history.

Tunney went down and what happened happened. But it's what happened when he got up that I'm interested in:

"When I regained full consciousness, the count was two. I knew nothing of what had gone and was only aware that the referee was counting "Two" over me...Your legs are fine, was the first thought I had after rising."

Tunney had expected to be faced with a desperat struggle for survival, mauling on the ropes perhaps, maybe even being forced to return fire, but instead of from a firm base, like in 1, this would be from shaky legs. A desperate situation to find yourself in against any version of Jack Dempsey.

Instead, Tunney, rising form his first ever KD, finds himself able to backpedal away from danger and goes on to dominate the round - at the very end of the round, Tunney landed a punch that Jack Dempsey called "the hardest blow I have ever recieved. I thought I was going to die." The point is, Tunney, already a hellish proposition for Dempsey to land upon, was as mobile post KD as pre KD.

Dempsey, actually ahead on some of the scorecards ringside, never won another round.

Now, I'm pretty sure that nobody in this thread is picking Louis to out-box Gene Tunney. They see this as a KO? My question, then, is this.

Do you expect Louis, slower, with less dynamic (though no less good) footwork, to be able to catch Tunney on the ropes like Dempsey did? If he catches Tunney, do you think he can deliver greater desctruction than the seven punch combo that Jack dropped helpess Tunney with? And if not, do you see Joe closing and finishing the Tunney that backpedaled away from Jack Demspey?

Add to this mix of chin/conditioning/recovery Tunney's astounding strategical abilities, speed, composite punching and his unparalleled read on his opponents weaknesses, and I think you have the literal nightmare born to the ring for Joe Louis.

[OLD FOGEY]

We have to look at styles here. Gene Tunney kept his hands too low, chin out too much to not get knocked out by the greatest puncher of all time. Tunney had the fast feet but he didnt have the amazing head movement/upperbody fast twitch reflexes needed to avoid louis punches with a low gaurd.


On a last thought, Mcgrain, and Mendoza, what heavyweight did tunney ever beat with Prime Louis Size, Speed, Power, Skill? How many heavyweights did Tunney fight that were even louis size?

"What heavyweight did Tunney ever beat with prime Louis size, speed, power, skill?"

In fairness, there was no one he could fight like that. He did defeat Dempsey twice, and Jack certainly had ko power and fast hands and feet, even at 32.

If your point is that Louis ko'd men closer in style and skill to Tunney than Tunney beat a man like Louis, you might be right.

I think an important point is that Louis had a great overhand right which he would cross over the jab with lightning speed. Dempsey's best punch was his left hook. His right was not in Louis' class and yet he did catch Tunney with it. I think Louis catches Tunney sooner or later. Also, Louis might be able to jab with Tunney, something Dempsey did not even try.

[SuzieQ49]

If your point is that Louis ko'd men closer in style and skill to Tunney than Tunney beat a man like Louis, you might be right.

that is my point, many are picking an unproven fighter vs that size and style vs a man who knocked out fighters similiar to tunney in both size skill and style

[McGrain]

that is my point, many are picking an unproven fighter vs that size and style vs a man who knocked out fighters similiar to tunney in both size skill and style

How do you think that Marciano would fare against Lewis?

[SuzieQ49]

Do you expect Louis, slower, with less dynamic (though no less good) footwork, to be able to catch Tunney on the ropes like Dempsey did?

I think Louis would look faster sharper more polished than a far past his prime much slower dempsey in there. dempsey looked slow as hell. Joe Louis would stalk tunney, and at his best in the late thirties he was quite quick and nimble on his feet as tracking down opposition into his range.


If he catches Tunney, do you think he can deliver greater desctruction than the seven punch combo that Jack dropped helpess Tunney with?

He can deliver better. Joe Louis is a greater all around puncher than jack dempsey ever was in his prime, harder hitter too. So a peak louis is certainly more capable a puncher than a far past his prime jack dempsey


And if not, do you see Joe closing and finishing the Tunney that backpedaled away from Jack Demspey?

Louis was in a much higher league in finishing ability than a far past his prime jack dempsey. The combo louis finished walcott with.......tunney would have been down for 30 seconds.

Add to this mix of chin/conditioning/recovery Tunney's astounding strategical abilities, speed, composite punching and his unparalleled read on his opponents weaknesses, and I think you have the literal nightmare born to the ring for Joe Louis.

You try to fight the greatest puncher of all time with your chin out and hands low, your doomed.

[SuzieQ49]

How do you think that Marciano would fare against Lewis?


Joe Louis knocks out Marciano

[McGrain]

I think Louis would look faster sharper more polished than a far past his prime much slower dempsey in there. dempsey looked slow as hell. Joe Louis would stalk tunney, and at his best in the late thirties he was quite quick and nimble on his feet as tracking down opposition into his range.

Sharper, we agree, but to be clear, you are saying that Louis had better foot-speed than Dempsey did in the second Tunney fight?




He can deliver better. Joe Louis is a greater all around puncher than jack dempsey ever was in his prime, harder hitter too. So a peak louis is certainly more capable a puncher than a far past his prime jack dempsey

I don't dispute any of this - but it still seems unlikely to me that Louis can deliver more destruction in one knockdown than Dempsey did in that one knockdown, though it is possible.




Louis was in a much higher league in finishing ability than a far past his prime jack dempsey. The combo louis finished walcott with.......tunney would have been down for 30 seconds.

He is abtter finisher, probably even peak for peak, but that is not the point. The point I was making is how highly mobile Tunney is once he has been hurt and regains his feet.

[McGrain]

Joe Louis knocks out Marciano

No, Lewis, Lennox Lewis.

[Ted Spoon]

There are some flawed arguments knocking about here.

Concerning Dempsey, yes he was slower, rusty and lacked the timing to really 'catch' Tunney, but the attack he pulled out of the bag to floor Tunney was a one-of-a-kind attack in a round that Dempsey described as "do-or-die".

The manner in which some fans view this as 'Tunney was knocked down by the hardest puncher he faced' is unfair. The punches Tunney took would have been good enough to put anyones lights out, but he was still composed, extra time or not.

It was mightily impressive the way he handled an unknown experience in the biggest fight of his life - compare that to Foreman, absolutely clueless on the canvas, against Ali. Tunney could map a situation out perfectly within a split second.

Secondly, Tunney's style was multi layered. He specifically ran against Dempsey because his legs were shot, and he knew Jack needed his legs to track you down. He would not fight like that against Louis. Louis would be studied-up on and dealt with differently. No parallels should be drawn to the way he fought Dempsey as he would to Louis.

Ted Spoon is under no illusions - a primed version of Joe Louis presents much more danger than a markedly faded version of Dempsey to Gene, but so much of Tunney's game cannot be understated when underlining the problems it could cause Louis.

[janitor]

Well yeah...but let me ask you - who do you pick? Not a man who could do it, but the man who was most likely to do it.

Do you see a Louis KO?

OK.

As Mr Louis's representative I want no part of a fight with Gene Tunney. I am much more interested in a big money fight with George Foreman who Tunney has been avoiding.

In fact I dont think the fight will be competative so I will hand Tunney one of Louis's belts and instead take the fight with Mike Weaver that the fans want to see.

Seriously though.

Tunney would be a good candidate to get past Louis but if he did it would only happen once.

When Louis didnt quite know what you were going to do you had a chance but once he knew your game you were prety much screwed, hence his sucess in rematches.

Louis might catch up to Tunney in the first fight and finish what a faded Jack Dempsey started, If Tunney got past him he would get terrible terrible revenge in the rematch.

Man most likley to win a rematch with Louis?

Probably sombody who lost the first match (preferably in the first round) then came up with a better gameplan.

[werety]

I'm with suzie q on this one. You really can't fight Joe Louis with your hands at your waist. I just don't see how Tunney doesn't get knocked out most likely by a counter right over his jab leading into a brutal finish.

[Boilermaker]

OK.

As Mr Louis's representative I want no part of a fight with Gene Tunney. I am much more interested in a big money fight with George Foreman who Tunney has been avoiding.




Interesting there Mr Janitor. Will you avoid Mr Tunney for so long that you will not face Mr Tunney until you are well past your prime. I wonder how much credit Tunney will get for beating the old rusty version of Louis in one of his first fights as a heavyweight? Will be interesting in the rematch when Mr Louis knocks out Jersey Joe Walcott. But again is completely outboxed by Mr Tunney, despite catching him in one of the later rounds and knocking him down! I wonder how Mr Tunney would rank under these circumstances?

[OLD FOGEY]

I'm with suzie q on this one. You really can't fight Joe Louis with your hands at your waist. I just don't see how Tunney doesn't get knocked out most likely by a counter right over his jab leading into a brutal finish.

Louis' great right was something Tunney never faced. And I think it would be most interesting to see how Tunney deals with someone who has a great jab himself. On film, neither Dempsey, Gibbons, Heeney, nor Carpentier were in any position to keep Tunney honest with a jab. I don't know if Tunney ever fought someone who could. Louis might actually win a jabbing contest. It is not out of the question.

[Boilermaker]

I'm with suzie q on this one. You really can't fight Joe Louis with your hands at your waist. I just don't see how Tunney doesn't get knocked out most likely by a counter right over his jab leading into a brutal finish.

So you think that Muhammed Ali is no chance against Louis?


Tunney is largely an unknown quantity, admittedly, but consider this:

His fighting style is similar to that of Muhammed Ali, but techinically he is better. He has better arsenal of punches, he tends to put more in shoulder into his punches, has a better body attack etc. His speed is very close to that of Ali's. Probably not as quick as prime Ali (although he may have been closer than many think) but probably faster than the 70s Ali that ended on top of the Golden era of heavyweights. No matter which we you look at it, unless he is fighting Ali, he is going to be of comparable speed.

We do not know how hard he hits. Some on here seem to assume because he was a light heavy that he is a powder puff puncher, but everyone he fought says he hit hard. It is interesting that Dempsey said he hit him harder than anyone has before. Obviously he was no Foreman or Lennox Lewis or even Vlad Klitchsko, but, I think it is safe to assume that hit as hard and probably harder than guys like Conn, Farr and others who have challenged and done quite well for world titles. In fact, given that his technique was better than Alis he probably hit as close to as hard as Ali hit. Certainly, there is an argument there and if he is being given benefit of the doubt, you have to assume that his punching power is very close to Alis level.

This leaves his chin as the last remaining question mark. As a heavyweight this hasnt been proved and can never really be measured. This was seen as Alis weakpoint when he had the same number of heavyweight fights as Tunney. Ali was down more often than Tunney and looked much shakier than Tunney who only went down once and who recovered brilliantly from that. In hindsight, Ali proved close to the best chin and recovery of all time. What if Tunney's chin is the same? There is certainly no evidence to suggest otherwise.

At the very least, we do know that Tunneys chin/heart is better than Jack Sharkey's, who is generally seen as having a great heavyweight chin.

If you can make the above assumptions of Tunney's attributes and abilities and there is no evidence to suggest those attributes are not true (despite what anyone says) then there is no reason why Tunney cannot beat Joe Louis or anyother heavyweight. Certainly he has a chance against anyone.

[Rock0052]

What do you say, could Tunney do what Conn almost succeeded with - to defeat Louis? Could he even edge a trilogy against him?

Yes, I think he could do it. His boxing skills were better, he had great recovery, and was a very smart, adaptable fighter. I also think he hits hard enough to get Louis' attention, which is important. Psychologically, he wasn't the kind of fighter to be affected by Joe's aura of invincibility. If Gene fights smart (which was the case nearly every time he fought), he'd win a decision 2 times out of 3, if not all of them.

Not to discount Louis, whom I actually rank at #1 at HW- I just think Gene's the wrong stylistic matchup for him. In fact, I'd say Tunney's one of the more underrated fighters in boxing historically- people scoff at hypothetical matchups like this even though he proved he was legit against ATG competition. On one thread, we have a Greb lovefest (perfectly deserved, might I add) where many rank him #1 at MW. Dempsey is a fighter I've rarely seen ranked below 15, and oftentimes top 10 at HW. Even if Jack was faded, Tunney performed at a damn high level against both these fighters every time.

Why is it so taboo to think he has what it takes to decision Louis?

[pugilist_boyd]

As Mentioned Tunney Would Bring A Battle Plan,he Studied More Than Prob. Anyone.and He Had No Love Of The Sport,just Money If He Had The Hunger To Keep Fighting Possibly Would Have Had An Excellent Resemay.i Think Tunney Had The Style To Take At Least 1 If Not 2 Out Of 3 Against Joe As Ment. Even A Faded Dempsey Was Much Faster On His Feet Than Joe.everyone Always Underestimats Tunneys Power Wich Was Very Good

[Dempsey1238]

Tunney was also the first fighter of note to study films of his foes, so I can see Tunney popping in Carnea Louis, Louis Baer, and take careful eye on Louis's first pro loss for weakness, just as Max did leading up to the bout. Tunney would be a hard task, and I can very well SEE Tunney upsetting Louis, like Holyfiled did Tyson, Tunney is one of the FEW fighters, I can see winning all 3 match series with Louis due to style problems.
I belive Tunney's Chin ranks up with the best, regardless of that 7th round. That was not the ONLY time Dempsey caught Tunney. Dempsey caught Tunney mostly though out the fight, but could not complete with Tunney's jab, speed and combos. Dempsey still landed his body shots and rabbit punchs in the clichs. So if anything, Tunney has a strong backside of his head.

[McGrain]

Louis might actually win a jabbing contest. It is not out of the question.

Good observation, certainly this would spell disaster for Tunney.

[McGrain]

Tunney was also the first fighter of note to study films of his foes, so I can see Tunney popping in Carnea Louis, Louis Baer, and take careful eye on Louis's first pro loss for weakness, just as Max did leading up to the bout. Tunney would be a hard task, and I can very well SEE Tunney upsetting Louis, like Holyfiled did Tyson, Tunney is one of the FEW fighters, I can see winning all 3 match series with Louis due to style problems.
I belive Tunney's Chin ranks up with the best, regardless of that 7th round. That was not the ONLY time Dempsey caught Tunney. Dempsey caught Tunney mostly though out the fight, but could not complete with Tunney's jab, speed and combos. Dempsey still landed his body shots and rabbit punchs in the clichs. So if anything, Tunney has a strong backside of his head.


Nice post.

[janitor]

Interesting there Mr Janitor. Will you avoid Mr Tunney for so long that you will not face Mr Tunney until you are well past your prime. I wonder how much credit Tunney will get for beating the old rusty version of Louis in one of his first fights as a heavyweight? Will be interesting in the rematch when Mr Louis knocks out Jersey Joe Walcott. But again is completely outboxed by Mr Tunney, despite catching him in one of the later rounds and knocking him down! I wonder how Mr Tunney would rank under these circumstances?

I think that if Walcott had fought the Dempsey that Tunney beat up and Tunney fought the Louis that KOd Walcott the outcomes might well have been the same.

I still dont think that Tunney has shown that he is worthy to fight my boy Joe. If he fights George Foreman we will meet the winner.

Promise.

[SuzieQ49]

How does tunney have a top Heavyweight chin? not only did he not fight men over 200lb, or many of the heavyweight punchers of his era, he also failed to fight the light-Heavyweight punchers of his era (berlenbach, slattery, stribling, siki, etc etc).... People say he recovered on his feet fast from the dempsey knockdown, but he was given 14 seconds of recuperation.......thats at least 5 seconds of extra time which all boxers know is very crucial seconds.

[Mega Lamps]

Tunney would have a chance to at least win 1 out of 3 but him keeping his hands low could be a problem against someone like Louis. Tunney was a master boxer and arguably one of the best heavyweights ever at it.

Ali would have a good chance against Louis as well, although him keeping his hands low or using the rope-a-dope, could spell doom.

Marciano against Louis is an interesting fight to examine as well. Stylistically this appears to favor him and not favor him at the same time. Louis didn't like to be crowded but he seemed to love when fighters opened up and went after him. Prime for prime it would be an excellent fight.

Louis is beatable as is anyone but hes perhaps the greatest of all time.

[Grebfan9]

Joe Louis had a great jab and very quick punishing power!!!

Tunney was a great boxer but Louis could/would eventually
catch him & then - KO!!!

Louis was a great finisher and far more dangerous than an over the
hill Jack Dempsey or Harry Greb!!!


Grebfan9
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[red cobra]

We have to look at styles here. Gene Tunney kept his hands too low, chin out too much to not get knocked out by the greatest puncher of all time. Tunney had the fast feet but he didnt have the amazing head movement/upperbody fast twitch reflexes needed to avoid louis punches with a low gaurd.


On a last thought, Mcgrain, and Mendoza, what heavyweight did tunney ever beat with Prime Louis Size, Speed, Power, Skill? How many heavyweights did Tunney fight that were even louis size?
Tunney is usually condemned for making JUST ONE MISTAKE...and this is carrying his hands too low in that 7th round against Dempsey. It's not really fair to Tunney, because probably of all fighters, past or present, Tunney was most studious, and if given the opportunity, would he would have weeded out that flaw of a low guard, and thus improved even more on his style and technique. THERE NEVER HAS BEEN A MORE STUDIOUS AND DISCIPLINED BOXER THAN TUNNEY!! He would have had, as has been posted earlier and correctly by Mendoza, an excellent chance to upset Louis, because he excelled Conn, Walcott, and all the others, like Pastor, who troubled Louis by being far more disciplined as well as having a better chin. Like I said, Tunney, that is if you factor into these hypothetical bouts each man at their very best, would most likely have filtered out of his style any defensive lapses that occured in the 7th round against Dempsey. Tunney, in his studiousness and discipline in following a wise strategy, even surpassed the 1936 version of Max Schmeling, who prepared himself very well for Joe Louis that year for his great upset. Louis, even in his peak years, was susceptible to being outboxed and out-tricked on occasion, and once again, the very disciplined Tunney would have posed a much bigger risk for him than even Conn, and you can bet that Tunney wouldn't have gone "Irish" on Louis and tried to ko him as Conn did.

[JIm Broughton]

This isn't as easy to pick as alot of people may think. Louis had trouble with movers such as Pastor and Conn and was actually rocked by Conn a few times in thier bout. Conn weighed 169lbs for that fight. A 190lb just as mobile and probably harder hitting Tunney might be quite a bit of trouble for the murderous punching yet somewhat flatfooted Louis. Conn got stupid in his fight with Louis and tried to knockout Joe instead of staying away. I don't see Gene making the same mistake. We're probably talking about the most intelligent man to ever lace 'em up as well as the the best at anylizing an opponent's strengths and weaknesses. And Gene was tough too. He fought a series of brutal bouts with Harry Greb and won the majority of them so that speaks volumes about his ability to take it plus he got up after being pasted by one of the most brutal punchers of all time in Dempsey so Gene was no softie in the ring. With that being said I would still favor Louis slightly in this one but I wouldn't be shocked if Gene won by decision. If he can avoid Louis' right hand over his jab counter and employ lateral movement all night then he can win. If not then I see Joe stopping Gene late in the fight after timing Gene's movement. Either way it's a tough one to call in my opinion.