Rating of the Heavyweights of New Millenium decade [Archive]

SuzieQ49

06-13-2008, 08:46 AM

Those ratings were funny. Rhaman at #2?

Your Rating of Klitschkos opponents are funny. Hasim Rahman deserves to be # 2. He is one of only two Linear Heavyweight champions of the New Millenium. Rahman also KNOCKED OUT ATG Lennox Lewis, the single best win any fighter of the decade has. He also beat many other Ring Magazine contenders of the era, and was a two time champ of new millenium. Klitschko was knocked out by journeyman corrie sanders in two rounds, rahman knocked out corrie sanders.

If Hasim Rahman is number 2, where does that put Oleg Maskaev?

Oleg Maskaev only beat hasim rahman once during the new millenium, not twice. Maskaev had rahmans number, but he did not nearly come close to accomplish as much as rahman did. Maskaev was embarrased by Kirk Johnson, lance whitaker, corey sanders. His sole win over a contender in the new milenium is hasim rahman, congrats but thats not a strong body of work.

Peter should be in there. He beat Maskaev (who could be in there as well) and pitched a shutout over Toney (who is in there) after a close first fight. His only loss was a game effort against Klitschko.

Naw, Peter went 1-1 with james Toney and I had the mccline fight a draw. he has alot more to accomplish.

DamonD

06-13-2008, 09:03 AM

Naw, Peter went 1-1 with james Toney and I had the mccline fight a draw. he has alot more to accomplish.
Really?
Apart from the rounds where he had Peter reeling about like a drunk, I thought McCline did so little...thought Peter won about 9 of the rounds.

SuzieQ49

06-13-2008, 09:15 AM

Guys like Sanders and Maskaev have knockout wins over top3 ranked fighters on this list and should be on there instead.

if i am going to include sanders, ill have to include lamon brewster since he accomplished the same feat against wlad plus beat other contenders. Maskaev's poor body of work and 4 knockout losses in the new millenium keep him out.

SuzieQ49

06-13-2008, 09:29 AM

1. Lennox
2. Wlad
3. Rahman
4. Vitali
5. Toney
6. Brewster
7. Ruiz
8. Byrd
9. Tua
10. RJJ

nice list, did you go by the same criteria i listed?

ChrisPontius

06-13-2008, 09:42 AM

if i am going to include sanders, ill have to include lamon brewster since he accomplished the same feat against wlad plus beat other contenders. Maskaev's poor body of work and 4 knockout losses in the new millenium keep him out.

You could include him also, he has a few nice wins apart from Klitschko. I know you think Golota is a faggot, but many people thought he beat Ruiz and Byrd when Brewster blasted him Tyson-Spinks style.

As for Peter, there's enough people who had him winning that first fight, even if it was very close.

However, almost everyone had him winning the McCline fight, even on the general forum. He certainly did more than Tua, who actually did fuck all in this millenium.

SuzieQ49

06-13-2008, 09:59 AM

As for Peter, there's enough people who had him winning that first fight, even if it was very close.

I will never concede to that point. Peter ate counter right hands the whole night, took a boxing lesson from toney. I think I scored it something like 116-111 James Toney or 115-112 James Toney, cant remember which but a clear unanimous for james.

However, almost everyone had him winning the McCline fight, even on the general forum. He certainly did more than Tua, who actually did fuck all in this millenium.

Tua gets in on h2h ability, one of my criterias. he was still near the top of his game in the early part of the decade. Tua h2h is better than peter h2h.

Sorry Peter is just not there yet. He is going to have to convince me more than just knocking out a 40 year old maskaev, or beating convinsingly a shot t39 year old toney in the rematch. Peter actually should have finished wlad off in there fight, he had his chances. Peter has good h2h ability but his accomplishments are still lacking. If peters guys like valuev, chagaev, potvekin, Virchis, wladimir rematch he will def make my next list.

mr. magoo

06-13-2008, 09:59 AM

Rating Heavyweights 2000-Present.........Goes by All around Accomplishments/h2h/historical signifigance/intangibles

1. Lennox Lewis
2. Hasim Rahman
3. Wladimir Klitschko
4. Chris Bryd
5. Evander Holyfield
6. John Ruiz
7. Vitali Klitschko
8. David Tua
9. Nicolay Valuev
10. James Toney

I have to agree with some of the observations made by Chris Pointus and Mendoza. If these fighters are being rated by what they did from 2000 onward, excluding all previous accomplishments, then this list needs drastic revision. Lennox Lewis should not be rated higher than Wladimir Klitschko in the millenium era. He had too few fights during that period and being a lineal claimant is not enough to make up for it. Wlad's record from 2000-2008 is 19-2, including 13 title fights. Lewis's record post 2000, is 6-1. Lewis simply did not do enough after the 90's to be rated above Klitschko, using the criteria that Suzie has provided.

Additionally, men like James Toney, Evander Holyfield, etc should not be on that list at all. Holyfield hasn't done much since beating John Ruiz in 2000, and Toney's overall record at heavyweight is 4-2-1. Rahman deserves to be in the top 10, but #2 is outreageously high.

The list is missing important figures such as Oleg Maskaev, Sam Peter, Corrie Sanders, and possibly even Ruslan Chagaev.

SuzieQ49

06-13-2008, 10:02 AM

You could include him also, he has a few nice wins apart from Klitschko. I know you think Golota is a faggot, but many people thought he beat Ruiz and Byrd when Brewster blasted him Tyson-Spinks style.

Yes I saw the 59 second massacre live. Dominating win. But his laughable preceding performance in which I think he lost to a Old D level southpaw like Kali Meehan was just plain right awful. I mean awful. Sergei Liahovic beat him, but Liakohivic is a very skilled big man, its a shame he let roided Shannon briggs get to him in the 12th round. I think Valuevs shutout win over sergei is one of the most underated wins of the year, valuev has improved dramatically. He is going to be tough to beat.

SuzieQ49

06-13-2008, 10:14 AM

Lennox Lewis should not be rated higher than Wladimir Klitschko in the millenium era. He had too few fights during that period and being a lineal claimant is not enough to make up for it. Wlad's record from 2000-2008 is 19-2, including 13 title fights. Lewis's record post 2000, is 6-1. Lewis simply did not do enough after the 90's to be rated above Klitschko, using the criteria that Suzie has provided.

We dont just take accomplishments here, we also look at h2h and historical signifigance AND intangibles.

First off......Lennox wins over David Tua, Vitali Klitschko, Mike Tyson, Hasim Rahman are by far better wins than anything Wladimir beat. Clear Edge to Lennox.

2nd,

h2h Lennox was still at his best in early millenium and lennox at his best is in a different class than wladimir klitschko. h2h edge to lennox

Intangibles.......Wlad in his loss to brewster not only showed horrible laspes of stamina, but lack of mental toughness of a champion. Lennox showed a lot of will bouncing back from adversity to knock out rahman, and to comeback and beat vitali........Edge Lennox

Historical Signifigance......Lennox at age 37 rusted out of shape Beat vitali Klitschko who many here claim to be some kind of unbeatable giant. So this is more impressive from a historical standpoint than anything wlad has yet to accomplish

Additionally, men like James Toney, Evander Holyfield, etc should not be on that list at all. Holyfield hasn't done much since beating John Ruiz in 2000, and Toney's overall record at heavyweight is 4-2-1. Rahman deserves to be in the top 10, but #2 is outreageously high.

Yes they should. Evander IMO won a trilogy with John Ruiz, one of the most consistent Ring Magazine contenders of the decade. He also beat Hasim Rahman. h2h evander was still world class in the early part of the decade coming off the strong lewis rematch performance. when you look at intangibles, evander fighting for 12 rounds with a torn rotator cuff injury against chris bryd to survie the distance while vitali quit on his stool ahead of points, is a mark of a warrior.

James Toney IMO holds wins over john Ruiz, Sam Peter, 2nd man to stop evander holyfield, and his slick counterpunching style h2h would give many heavyweights fits. also from a historical signifigant standpoint, he was a former middleweight champion who moved up to heavyweight division in his late 30s and not only managed to become a top rated heavyweight contender, but managed to win a world HW title for a period of 7 days(lol). great from a historical standpoint, few middles could do what he has done in a era of superheavyweights.

Rahman deserves to be in the top 10, but #2 is outreageously high.

Hasim Rahman deserves to be # 2. He is one of only two Linear Heavyweight champions of the New Millenium. Rahman also KNOCKED OUT ATG Lennox Lewis, the single best win any fighter of the decade has. He also beat many other Ring Magazine contenders of the era, and was a two time champ of new millenium.

The list is missing important figures such as Oleg Maskaev, Sam Peter, Corrie Sanders, and possibly even Ruslan Chagaev.

Oleg Maskaev was knocked out by Lance Whitaker, Corey Sanders, and Kirk Johnson in the New Millenium, and dissapeared from 2003-2006. Sorry he does not belong on the list. on a h2h scale, he is not very good either.

I already explained why sam peter hasnt proven himself enough yet

corrie Sanders was a one hit wonder journeyman. he was knocked out in 1 round in his last fight. If I include him I have to include lamon Brewster who also knocked out wlad, except beat other contenders. sanders soley lives based on one win over a very glass jawed fighter like wlad.

mr. magoo

06-13-2008, 10:41 AM

=SuzieQ49]We dont just take accomplishments here, we also look at h2h and historical signifigance AND intangibles.

First off......Lennox wins over David Tua, Vitali Klitschko, Mike Tyson, Hasim Rahman are by far better wins than anything Wladimir beat. Clear Edge to Lennox.

There is no clear edge, and particulary not one that's in favor of Lewis. He defeated a ring worn Tyson, defeated Vitali in contraversial fashion, and was Ko'd by Rahman before coming back to beat him. The Tua win was very good, but not anything to get carried away over. Klitschko has won 11 title fights in the millenium, which is more than the total number of matches that Lewis even fought in post 1999. He has beaten a number of undefeated fighters in their primes and avenged a loss a against a very tough foe.

2nd,

h2h Lennox was still at his best in early millenium and lennox at his best is in a different class than wladimir klitschko. h2h edge to lennox

Rating opponents based on who YOU FEEL would win in a fantasy machup is a horribly flawed way to establish ratings. You have no idea what would actually happen if two men met in the ring, and should the underdog beat your favorite, then the whole argument collapses on itself.

Intangibles.......Wlad in his loss to brewster not only showed horrible laspes of stamina, but lack of mental toughness of a champion. Lennox showed a lot of will bouncing back from adversity to knock out rahman, and to comeback and beat vitali........Edge Lennox

OK, so Lewis showed will in bouncing back from adversity to beat Rahman, but Wlad didn't show the same thing in beating Bewster, or for that matter picking himself up off the canvas to beat Peter?

Historical Signifigance......Lennox at age 37 rusted out of shape Beat vitali Klitschko who many here claim to be some kind of unbeatable giant. So this is more impressive from a historical standpoint than anything wlad has yet to accomplish

I've already addressed this for the most part.

Yes they should. Evander IMO won a trilogy with John Ruiz, one of the most consistent Ring Magazine contenders of the decade. He also beat Hasim Rahman. h2h evander was still world class in the early part of the decade coming off the strong lewis rematch performance. when you look at intangibles, evander fighting for 12 rounds with a torn rotator cuff injury against chris bryd to survie the distance while vitali quit on his stool ahead of points, is a mark of a warrior.

Surviving Byrd or not, Holyfield lost that fight, was knocked out by James Toney, outboxed by Sultan Ibragimov, and beaten by John Ruiz. Hoyfield's record from 2000-2008 is 6-5-1-2. Does this meet your criteria for head to head ability as well, or does it all of a sudden not apply in this case?

James Toney IMO holds wins over john Ruiz, Sam Peter, 2nd man to stop evander holyfield, and his slick counterpunching style h2h would give many heavyweights fits. also from a historical signifigant standpoint, he was a former middleweight champion who moved up to heavyweight division in his late 30s and not only managed to become a top rated heavyweight contender, but managed to win a world HW title for a period of 7 days(lol). great from a historical standpoint, few middles could do what he has done in a era of superheavyweights.

I'm noticing a clear pattern here. You're giving an aweful lot of decisions away to fighters who either lost or drew in some of their matches, and in so doing, giving them higher ratings. This is not a valid way to rate fighters, given that:

A. It is largely opinion based, and not necessarily fact.

B. The wins you're giving these men, were still not enough to elevate them into the list you've constructed.

Hasim Rahman deserves to be # 2. He is one of only two Linear Heavyweight champions of the New Millenium. Rahman also KNOCKED OUT ATG Lennox Lewis, the single best win any fighter of the decade has. He also beat many other Ring Magazine contenders of the era, and was a two time champ of new millenium.

A good feat yes, and one that earns him a place in the top 10, perhaps even top five, but #2 is getting a tad carried away.

Oleg Maskaev was knocked out by Lance Whitaker, Corey Sanders, and Kirk Johnson in the New Millenium, and dissapeared from 2003-2006. Sorry he does not belong on the list. on a h2h scale, he is not very good either.

Yet, he KO'd your #2 two guy twice.

I already explained why sam peter hasnt proven himself enough yet

Well he certainly deserves to be rated above James Toney who you have in that top 10 list, given that he beat him twice. Peter is a world champion with only a competitive decision loss to Wlad. From 2001-2008, he has compiled his whole career consisting of 30-1-0-23, which far better than Toney's abismal 4-2-1, let alone the two losses to Peter.

corrie Sanders was a one hit wonder journeyman. he was knocked out in 1 round in his last fight. If I include him I have to include lamon Brewster who also knocked out wlad, except beat other contenders. sanders soley lives based on one win over a very glass jawed fighter like wlad.

Wlad is not a glass jawed fighter, Sander's resume is far better than you're crediting him with.

ChrisPontius

06-13-2008, 12:14 PM

Yes I saw the 59 second massacre live. Dominating win. But his laughable preceding performance in which I think he lost to a Old D level southpaw like Kali Meehan was just plain right awful. I mean awful. Sergei Liahovic beat him
Well i'm just wondering why you give Holyfield a pass for losing terribly one-sided to Donald (unranked, though also a bit underrated), Byrd, Ibragimov and a knockout loss to feather fisted Toney, but Brewster loses all credibility for that one loss, despite having much better wins?

Same with Toney.

You say he's knocked out Holyfield and lost to Peter when he was shot. Yeah, ok.

The first night it was a very close fight, then the second fight, Peter comes in good shape (compared to the first), made adaptations like throwing combinations, going to the body, throwing double jabs, etc. He not only beats Toney but takes pretty much every round. But then all of a sudden Toney is shot? Maybe Peter's improvement had a thing or two to do with it as well.

Whatever way you look at it, Toney was a top contender going into the fight and Peter dominated him. Great win. After that, Toney barely got by, as you say, D level Batchelder. Why doesn't that loss set him back like it did Brewster? Yeah he was past his best, but we're not evaluating careers here, we're evaluating what one fighter has done compared to the other in a specific era.

If Holmes comes out of retirement right now and loses to everyone, is he still on the same level as Rahman when talking about achievements post-2000, because Larry is old so he should be excused?

You need to think about this and seperate historic ranking of a fighter and achievement within one era.

The former has all to do with how young and well conditioned a boxer is, the latter has nothing to do with it at all.

Does it take anything away from Lewis' career that he retired in 2003? Absolutely not. Does that mean he has to compete against other guys who have 5 years more of accomplishements than him in this era? Yes, it does.

also from a historical signifigant standpoint, he was a former middleweight champion who moved up to heavyweight division in his late 30s and not only managed to become a top rated heavyweight contender, but managed to win a world HW title for a period of 7 days(lol). great from a historical standpoint, few middles could do what he has done in a era of superheavyweights.

It's great that this he is a former middleweight, but that means fuck all when talking about heavyweight lists. It's not a pound for pound list. Size doesn't matter.

Tua gets in on h2h ability, one of my criterias. he was still near the top of his game in the early part of the decade. Tua h2h is better than peter h2h.

Really?

Well it's a pity that he had that great h2h ability but only used it when stuffing donuts down his throat and not in the ring. Because in the ring, all of that magic h2h ability you grant him, suddenly disappeared and he has been one gigant disappointment in the 2000's. Sorry but i don't rank on speculation: the facts clearly state that he does not or barely belongs. He barely got past journeyman Robert Hawkins too, in looking awful. But i guess that only counts against you when your name is Lamon.

mr. magoo

06-13-2008, 12:24 PM

SuzieQ49

06-13-2008, 12:27 PM

I don't see how in the hell anyone can have James Toney as a top 10 heavyweight over the last decade, and not have Sam Peter on the same list who beat him twice, plus had a much better record. There's a lot of bullshit around here these days,...

As far As Im concerned the Toney-Peter Series was split. Toney-Peter I was one of the biggest robberies of the year. The 2nd fight, Toney showed up aged badly overnight looking like he had brain damage. he was a shell by the 2nd fight. Pretty sad actually.

There's a lot of bullshit around here these days,...

Ya your right. amazing how many pewople view sanders as some kind of freak of nature southpaw joe louis, how many champions and hall of fame fighters they would pick sanders to brutally knockout. kinda pathetic, never seen a fan base like the euro's who have it in hard for the klits. it makes it hard for me to cheer for wlad(a fighter I really like). Only on ESB does klit praise get outrageous, too many non americans on this forum.

mr. magoo

06-13-2008, 12:30 PM

As far As Im concerned the Toney-Peter Series was split. Toney-Peter I was one of the biggest robberies of the year. The 2nd fight, Toney showed up aged badly overnight looking like he had brain damage. he was a shell by the 2nd fight. Pretty sad actually.

Peter won both those fights, as unimpressive as they may have been. He also compiled a record of 30-1 over the last 8 years, as opposed to Toney's heavyweight record of 4-2-1. Even if the series had been split, I don't see how in the hell the man could be rated higher than Peter.

SuzieQ49

06-13-2008, 12:32 PM

You know Chris all I ever see you do is critisize. Do you not have enough balls to compile your own list 2000-present, I would like to see it.

SuzieQ49

06-13-2008, 12:33 PM

Peter won both those fights, as unimpressive as they may have been. He also compiled a record of 30-1 over the last 8 years, as opposed to Toney's heavyweight record of 4-2-1. Even if the series had been split, I don't see how in the hell the man could be rated higher than Peter.Gee ya ever think maybe perhaps because Peter started out his career at heavyweight? out of those 30 25 of those are club rated fighters built to pad peters resume. Toney jumped up from the cruiserweight division at age 36 RIGHT INTO fighting rated heavyweight contenders. sure he could have padded his record with 25 easy stiffs, but he didnt. he fought the best right away.

Toney rates higher than peter on historical signifigance, h2h, and accomplishments are around even currently with peter moving ahead soon...

mr. magoo

06-13-2008, 12:36 PM

[quote]Ya your right. amazing how many pewople view sanders as some kind of freak of nature southpaw joe louis,

Who in the hell ever drew a comparison between Sanders and Joe Louis? I've never heard anyone say that these two were on par with one another..

how many champions and hall of fame fighters they would pick sanders to brutally knockout.

I don' think anyone ever said this either, but I do know that some ( including myself ) have given him a chance to potentially upset certain great fighters. If Braddock, McCall, L. Spinks, Douglas, and Rahman can upset great fighters, then why couldn't Sanders? Hell, he was a pretty big underdog against Wlad wasn't he??

Only on ESB does klit praise get outrageous, too many non americans on this forum.

His being underrating gets just as outrageous as his being overrated. I believe a few months ago, you created some sort of a list where you had him down at like 43 or something????

SuzieQ49

06-13-2008, 12:40 PM

His being underrating gets just as outrageous as his being overrated. I believe a few months ago, you created some sort of a list where you had him down at like 43 or something????

Yep thats what he deserves until he proves himself further. Now that he has good heavyweights out there like valuev, chagaev, haye, potvekin, dimitrenko, virchis to fight......if he beats most of these guys he can move into my top 20.

SuzieQ49

06-13-2008, 12:41 PM

If Braddock, McCall, L. Spinks, Douglas, and Rahman can upset great fighters, then why couldn't Sanders? Hell, he was a pretty big underdog against Wlad wasn't he??

1. I was not aware Wladimir was a "great" fighter?

2. Didnt Purrity and Brewster accomplish the same feat vs wlad? how hard is it to doo?

mr. magoo

06-13-2008, 01:02 PM

=SuzieQ49]1. I was not aware Wladimir was a "great" fighter?

I would say that he arguably deserves to be rated above Max Baer or closely on par, therefore Sanders' win over Wlad is as good or better than Braddock's over Baer. Or Spinks' win over a shot Ali.

2. Didnt Purrity and Brewster accomplish the same feat vs wlad? how hard is it to doo?

Brewster did, yes. But, Purity beat an under developed Klitschko who was still a work in progress. Many great fighters have lost early matches in their careers, and some have lost quite a few more than Wlad early on, so I don't think that this loss should way to heavily against him. That is of course, if you're still willing to judge Wlad by the same standards that you would judge, say Walcott, Charles, Dempsey, Moore and several others.

mr. magoo

06-13-2008, 01:06 PM

Gee ya ever think maybe perhaps because Peter started out his career at heavyweight? out of those 30 25 of those are club rated fighters built to pad peters resume. Toney jumped up from the cruiserweight division at age 36 RIGHT INTO fighting rated heavyweight contenders. sure he could have padded his record with 25 easy stiffs, but he didnt. he fought the best right away.

Toney rates higher than peter on historical signifigance, h2h, and accomplishments are around even currently with peter moving ahead soon...

I am only rating these men based on the standards that YOU PROVIDED, which were, what they did from 2000 onward. Now you're coming up with all this shit about Toney being higher on historical significance. If we include Toney's wins during the 90's, and his title fights at middle weight, lightheavweight, etc, then yes he deserves to be rated higher. But, is this not a heavyweight list running in the new millenium, or are we now changing the criteria as the debate goes on?

mr. magoo

06-13-2008, 01:10 PM

On second thought,

I give up suzie. If you want to rate Toney, Rahman, and all those other guys where they are, then fine. Nothing I say is going to convince you anyway, so there's no point in debating any further.......

SuzieQ49

06-13-2008, 01:14 PM

The first night it was a very close fight, then the second fight, Peter comes in good shape (compared to the first), made adaptations like throwing combinations, going to the body, throwing double jabs, etc. He not only beats Toney but takes pretty much every round. But then all of a sudden Toney is shot? Maybe Peter's improvement had a thing or two to do with it as well.

Whatever way you look at it, Toney was a top contender going into the fight and Peter dominated him. Great win. After that, Toney barely got by, as you say, D level Batchelder

His performance vs Batchelder proves how shot toney was against peter in the 2nd fight.

I am only rating these men based on the standards that YOU PROVIDED, which were, what they did from 2000 onward. Now you're coming up with all this shit about Toney being higher on historical significance. If we include Toney's wins during the 90's, and his title fights at middle weight, lightheavweight, etc, then yes he deserves to be rated higher. But, is this not a heavyweight list running in the new millenium, or are we now changing the criteria as the debate goes on?

Toneys historical signifigance is he was the first old middleweight in modern superheavyweight era to move up to heavyweight division and immediatley become a consistent world class HW contender

SuzieQ49

06-13-2008, 01:15 PM

I give up suzie. If you want to rate Toney, Rahman, and all those other guys where they are, then fine. Nothing I say is going to convince you anyway, so there's no point in debating any further.......

let me guess ur top 5 would consist of klit brothers and corrie sanders sam peter and lamon brewster....all klit victims right?

ChrisPontius

06-13-2008, 01:20 PM

You know Chris all I ever see you do is critisize. Do you not have enough balls to compile your own list 2000-present, I would like to see it.

Is this your way of saying you're not going to bother refuting my arguments?

mr. magoo

06-13-2008, 01:25 PM

let me guess ur top 5 would consist of klit brothers and corrie sanders sam peter and lamon brewster....all klit victims right?

What difference does it make what I think? If I make a list based on what fighters did in the heavyweight division between 2000-2008, you'll likely say things like " Toney was a middleweight who moved up when he was past prime, therefore he deserves greater credit ", or " this fighter was robbed against that fighter, so I'll give him the win ."

Its virtually impossible to argue with someone who pulls stuff like the kind of stuff you're pulling. Most people don't consider either of Peter's wins over Toney as being robberies, but you obviously do, therefore it must be fact right? Maskaev knocks out Rahman twice, but doesn't even make the top 10, yet Rahman get's a number two rating. Sanders Ko's Wlad, and gives Vitali one of the best fights of his life, but get's rated lower than Holyfield who had a record of 6-5-1 from 2000 onward.

What am I supposed to say?

PowerPuncher

06-13-2008, 01:30 PM

nice list, did you go by the same criteria i listed?

Thanks, yes sort of 2000 onwards, ability, dominance, achievements.

PowerPuncher

06-13-2008, 01:32 PM

I don't see how in the hell anyone can have James Toney as a top 10 heavyweight over the last decade, and not have Sam Peter on the same list who beat him twice, plus had a much better record. There's a lot of bullshit around here these days,...

Toney was shot and way over weight when they fought AND Toney still won the first fight. Toney beat better fighters in Holy, Ruiz, Guin, Jirov too

mr. magoo

06-13-2008, 01:33 PM

PowerPuncher

06-13-2008, 01:37 PM

Does anyone here think that Ruslan Chagaev should be in a millenium top 10?

I for one think that he probably should. He's undefeated in 25 fights, ended Valuev's winning streak, and currently holds a world title.

NO, he lost to Shitty Skeleton, although I was drunk when I was scoring that 1, but Skeleton threw more and bullyed Chagaev. I was a fan of his fat ass before that performance

What else has he done except beat Valuev who many thought Ruiz and Donald beat?

SuzieQ49

06-13-2008, 01:38 PM

Maskaev knocks out Rahman twice, but doesn't even make the top 10, yet Rahman get's a number two rating.

Correction.........Maskaev only knocked out rahman ONCE 2000-present. the other knockout came in a different decade, and is disregarded from this thread.

don't consider either of Peter's wins over Toney as being robberies, but you obviously do, therefore it must be fact right?

Actually this forum was lit up with threads on how toney was robbed against peter in the first fight. toney gave him a boxing lesson, peter ate counter rights all night.

Sanders Ko's Wlad, and gives Vitali one of the best fights of his life, but get's rated lower than Holyfield who had a record of 6-5-1 from 2000 onward.

Best fights of his life? He won like 1 round vs vitali, who is pretty overated himself. Sanders completley lives off that "one hit wonder" syndrome. Braddock was at least a rated heavyweight contender that had beaten other ring magazine contenders. Sanders was not rated in the top 10 by any of the 4 bodies going into the wlad fight let alone ring magazine. Sanders in the first 12 years of his career never made it into Annuel Ring Magazine top 10 list.

Holyfield who had a record of 6-5-1 from 2000

Better than Sanders 1-2 record against Ring Magazine rated contenders 2000-present.

mr. magoo

06-13-2008, 01:38 PM

Toney was shot and way over weight when they fought AND Toney still won the first fight. Toney beat better fighters in Holy, Ruiz, Guin, Jirov too

You talk about Toney being shot when Peter beat him, but then credit James for beating a 40 year old Holyfield. If you're going to pat the guy on the back for beating old men like Evander or mediocrities like Guin, then you could at least acknowledge the fact that Peter just beat the livin' snot out of Oleg Maskaev for the WBC title. In fact, that was a more decisive win than any Toney's ever had at heavyweight. Albeit, Maskaev was 39 years of age, and rather innactive, but these are the types of wins that you're giving Toney credit for.

SuzieQ49

06-13-2008, 01:39 PM

Toney was shot and way over weight when they fought AND Toney still won the first fight. Toney beat better fighters in Holy, Ruiz, Guin, Jirov too

I agree, most thought toney deserved the nod in the first fight. He also stopped 40 year old holyfield which is better than stopping 40 year old oleg masakev...and he beat ruiz which is a better win than mccline.

PowerPuncher

06-13-2008, 01:41 PM

Lets look at wins

Lennox - Tyson ATG, Tua

Wlad - Brewster (past prime), Byrd (prime and past prime), Peter (prime), Ibragimov (average), Brock (average)

Rahman - Lewis, Toney (he won that)

Vitali - Sanders (past prime), Johnson (past prime), Donald

Toney - Holyfield, Peter, Ruiz, Guinn, Jirov

Brewster - Wlad, Golota, Krasniqi

mr. magoo

06-13-2008, 01:42 PM

NO, he lost to Shitty Skeleton, although I was drunk when I was scoring that 1, but Skeleton threw more and bullyed Chagaev. I was a fan of his fat ass before that performance

What else has he done except beat Valuev who many thought Ruiz and Donald beat?

Well, I certainly think that the Valuev win was a good one, and better than that of anything Toney did.

SuzieQ49

06-13-2008, 01:42 PM

Does anyone here think that Ruslan Chagaev should be in a millenium top 10?

I for one think that he probably should. He's undefeated in 25 fights, ended Valuev's winning streak, and currently holds a world title.

now this is a good arguement. He beat a big puncher like Virchis, beat a very much improved top heavyweight Nicolay Valuev, beat consistent top ranked contender like john ruiz. I think I should have included him. we will see what happens in the valuev rematch. wlad needs to fight these 2, and virchis.

SuzieQ49

06-13-2008, 01:44 PM

Rahman - Lewis, Toney (he won that)

Rahman also beat sanders(prime), barrett, and tua in the rematch robbery

mr. magoo

06-13-2008, 01:56 PM

Somehow every split decision or draw, is being turned into a robbery here.

ChrisPontius

06-13-2008, 02:27 PM

Does anyone here think that Ruslan Chagaev should be in a millenium top 10?

He should definitely be in there.

He is undefeated, ended Valuev's long winning streak, beat Ruiz in what surprisingly was an exciting fight and beat an undefeated Virchis.

That's a hell of a lot better than Toney's 1-1-1-1 record against HW contenders, the sole win coming against an old Holyfield.

PowerPuncher

06-13-2008, 02:28 PM

Well, I certainly think that the Valuev win was a good one, and better than that of anything Toney did.

No it isnt Toney beat Ruiz who should have got the nod over Valuev (and thats an older Ruiz)

Valuev is unproven anyone ranked or near ranked he fought should have got the nod over him

2003-2004 boxes Chageav a beating anyway

BTW Toney would NEVER lose to Skeleton

mr. magoo

06-13-2008, 02:30 PM

No it isnt Toney beat Ruiz who should have got the nod over Valuev (and thats an older Ruiz)

Valuev is unproven anyone ranked or near ranked he fought should have got the nod over him

2003-2004 boxes Chageav a beating anyway

Chagaev beat BOTH Valuev and Ruiz, plus undefeated Wladimir Virchis and a few other half way decent opponents. If men like Toney, Ruiz, and Holyfield are making people's top 10 millenium list, then Chagaev deserves to be on there as well, and likely above all of them......

PowerPuncher

06-13-2008, 02:32 PM

Somehow every split decision or draw, is being turned into a robbery here.

Boxing business is built on promoters scoring, by real boxing scoring:

Valuev lost against Ruiz and Donald
TOney beat Peter in the first
Toney lost against Rahman

Boxings full of currupt decisons you cant base legacies on curruption

ChrisPontius

06-13-2008, 02:32 PM

NO, he lost to Shitty Skeleton, although I was drunk when I was scoring that 1, but Skeleton threw more and bullyed Chagaev. I was a fan of his fat ass before that performance

It was a horribly boring fight because Skelton did nothing but holding and avoid fighting after 5 rounds, but Chagaev won it comfortably. I think you must have been very drunk.

What else has he done except beat Valuev who many thought Ruiz and Donald beat?

He beat Virchis who was (is) one of the, if not the hardest hitter at heavyweight. Sure, he's limited, but still a very big puncher. A primitive 6'6 250lbs Foreman if you like. He hasn't lost before or since and stopped a lot of fighters, including Hawkins who went the full distance with Peter and Tua.

A more impressive win however, is Ruiz. It was an exciting fight and Chagaev took it 8-4. Not that Ruiz is unbeatable, but he's a bitch to fight style-wise and to beat clean.

And why should we says "except for Valuev"?

Who did Toney or Tua legitly beat in the 2000's that hold up against those two names? Not to mention Valuev?

PowerPuncher

06-13-2008, 02:34 PM

Chagaev beat BOTH Valuev and Ruiz, plus undefeated Wladimir Virchis and a few other half way decent opponents. If men like Toney, Ruiz, and Holyfield are making people's top 10 millenium list, then Chagaev deserves to be on there as well, and likely above all of them......

Toney beat Ruiz more impressively than Chagaev. Vichis lost against Sprott but got a big GIFT. Valuev got gifts against Ruiz and Donald. Chagaev got a gift against journeyman Skeleton

Maybe Chagaev deserves a top 10 spot but Im not sold on him, so put him in your top 10 if you want to make a list.

Toney is simply a league above him and would beat him if they ever fought

ChrisPontius

06-13-2008, 02:34 PM

Just because you think Toney beat Peter in their first fight doesn't make it so. There are plenty of people who had Peter taking it because he hurt Toney often (James holding the rope to stay on his feet) and landed the more telling blows while Peter, like Rahman, walked through Toney's shots.

mr. magoo

06-13-2008, 02:37 PM

Boxing business is built on promoters scoring, by real boxing scoring:

Valuev lost against Ruiz and Donald
TOney beat Peter in the first
Toney lost against Rahman

Boxings full of currupt decisons you cant base legacies on curruption

And you can't automatically give wins to people just because you disagree with the outcome. If Muhammad Ali were slapped on the hand for receiving gift decisions, then his legacy would hardly reach #1 status as the greatest heavyweight of all time. Many feel that he lost his third fight with Ken Norton, along with receiving gift decisions against Doug Jones, Jimmy Young, and possibly even Earnie Shavers. I don't personally agree with many of these claims, but like you said, shit happens...

PowerPuncher

06-13-2008, 02:38 PM

1. It was a horribly boring fight because Skelton did nothing but holding and avoid fighting after 5 rounds, but Chagaev won it comfortably. I think you must have been very drunk.

2. He beat Virchis who was (is) one of the, if not the hardest hitter at heavyweight. Sure, he's limited, but still a very big puncher. A primitive 6'6 250lbs Foreman if you like. He hasn't lost before or since and stopped a lot of fighters, including Hawkins who went the full distance with Peter and Tua.

3. A more impressive win however, is Ruiz. It was an exciting fight and Chagaev took it 8-4. Not that Ruiz is unbeatable, but he's a bitch to fight style-wise and to beat clean.

And why should we says "except for Valuev"?

4. Who did Toney or Tua legitly beat in the 2000's that hold up against those two names? Not to mention Valuev?

1. Skeleton threw more than Chagaev and kept him on the ropes for the majority of the fight. Chagaev did little for the majority of the fight but lye on the ropes. He looked good when he opened up but this was very very rare. He got a very lucky decision

2. Virchis got completely schooled by journeyman Sprott.

3. Good win, but Toney schooled him more impressively

4. Tua isnt in my list, Toneys a legend who for me beat Peter, Ruiz, Holyfield, Guinn and looked like a boxing demigod in a few of those fights. Thats the key thing about Toney, he has some ofthe best P4P skills ever at heavyweight

mr. magoo

06-13-2008, 02:40 PM

Toney beat Ruiz more impressively than Chagaev. Vichis lost against Sprott but got a big GIFT. Valuev got gifts against Ruiz and Donald. Chagaev got a gift against journeyman Skeleton

Maybe Chagaev deserves a top 10 spot but Im not sold on him, so put him in your top 10 if you want to make a list.

Toney is simply a league above him and would beat him if they ever fought

I suppose if any opposing fighter whom you do not approve of goes up against a man whom you favor, he had better score a knockout, or else he's going to be accused of recieving a gift, right?

SuzieQ49

06-13-2008, 02:40 PM

I agree Chagaev deserves to be on this list. He has a very impressive resume.

PowerPuncher

06-13-2008, 02:41 PM

And you can't automatically give wins to people just because you disagree with the outcome. If Muhammad Ali were slapped on the hand for receiving gift decisions, then his legacy would hardly reach #1 status as the greatest heavyweight of all time. Many feel that he lost his third fight with Ken Norton, along with receiving gift decisions against Doug Jones, Jimmy Young, and possibly even Earnie Shavers. I don't personally agree with many of these claims, but like you said, shit happens...

No what happened is what happened, do you give Chavez and Holyfield kudos for their draws against Whtiaker and Holyfield :nut

Ali after Frazier in 1975 was a shot fighter so yes he got gift or 2. His legacy isn't based on his post Frazier body of work, if it was he'd rate far lower, but Ali didnt get a gift against Shavers and Young was close and Norton3 was quite close

PowerPuncher

06-13-2008, 02:43 PM

I suppose if any opposing fighter whom you do not approve of goes up against a man whom you favor, he had better score a knockout, or else he's going to be accused of recieving a gift, right?

No I just know how to score fights, I've even called my fave Toney's gift against Rahman, if I was biased I wouldn't have called that. Now go wash the sand out of your vagina

mr. magoo

06-13-2008, 02:46 PM

No I just know how to score fights, I've even called my fave Toney's gift against Rahman, if I was biased I wouldn't have called that. Now go wash the sand out of your vagina

I'll wash the sand out of my cunt after you wipe Toney's cum off your sphinctor. If your idea of " scoring ", is bending over for people, well I'd say you're excellent at it.

mr. magoo

06-13-2008, 02:47 PM

No what happened is what happened, do you give Chavez and Holyfield kudos for their draws against Whtiaker and Holyfield :nut

Do I give Holyfield Kudos for his draw against Holyfield? :nut

PowerPuncher

06-13-2008, 03:19 PM

I'll wash the sand out of my cunt after you wipe Toney's cum off your sphinctor. If your idea of " scoring ", is bending over for people, well I'd say you're excellent at it.

No I unlike your cock sucking preference I prefer females, what were your scores for those fights, let me guess, you didn't see them :lol:

ChrisPontius

06-13-2008, 03:36 PM

No I just know how to score fights
you score Skelton-Chagaev for Skelton yet you show this arrogance?

Ignorance is bliss i guess... even on the general forum, where Eastern Europeans aren't exactly liked, no one thought Matt deserved to win.

And you keep talking about Toney beating Ruiz..... it was a NC. Toney can't go more than 1 fight these days, without getting a steroid suspension. Sorry but it doesn't count.

PowerPuncher

06-13-2008, 03:41 PM

you score Skelton-Chagaev for Skelton yet you show this arrogance?

Ignorance is bliss i guess... even on the general forum, where Eastern Europeans aren't exactly liked, no one thought Matt deserved to win.

And you keep talking about Toney beating Ruiz..... it was a NC. Toney can't go more than 1 fight these days, without getting a steroid suspension. Sorry but it doesn't count.

I admitted to be drunk and I wasnt paying attention to this fight. Chagaev was fucking shit got outpunched, pushed on the ropes for the duration of the fight and this should be his prime. Chagaev probably landed the better punches but he was shit, theres a good case Skeleton won, but I was drunk and I'm not watching 1 of the shittiest fights between 2 bums again. They're both bums end of discussion

I'm not counting steroids otherwise all of the heavyweight division would be excluded from our ratings

janitor

06-13-2008, 04:02 PM

I think Valuevs shutout win over sergei is one of the most underated wins of the year, valuev has improved dramatically. He is going to be tough to beat.

You too huh?

mr. magoo

06-13-2008, 06:28 PM

No I unlike your cock sucking preference I prefer females, what were your scores for those fights, let me guess, you didn't see them :lol:

Well, you obviously didn't see those fights , and even admitted to being shitfaced for one of them. My guess is that you mistook the term boxrec, for boxrectum, given that you take misinformation up the ass...........

mr. magoo

06-13-2008, 06:33 PM

Nothing power puncher says can be taken seriously. Every fight involving a fighter that he doesn't favor, automatically is ruled as a robbery, when it doesn't go his way....

He is a Pea brain dickless shithead to say the least.........

ChrisPontius

06-14-2008, 03:19 AM

I'm not counting steroids otherwise all of the heavyweight division would be excluded from our ratings
I know you're a self-admitted juicer yourself and probably go by the "everyone uses it anyway" excuse, in fact, that's probably how you justified starting it. Now, i don't really give a damn how you look at the world, but that doesn't make your premise true. Fact is that Toney got caught on them contrary to the other guys we're discussing and the fight was ruled a NC with Toney being stripped of the title.

SuzieQ49

06-14-2008, 05:48 PM

Vitali did get caught with steroids, in the 1990s

Sweet Pea

06-14-2008, 06:15 PM

Rahman at #2 is lame. Rahman was a chump, plain and simple. Glass jawed and limited.

Wlad Klitschko is far superior, regardless of your dislike for his brother.

Mendoza

06-15-2008, 03:54 PM

Rating Heavyweights 2000-Present.........Goes by All around Accomplishments/h2h/historical signifigance/intangibles

1. Lennox Lewis
2. Hasim Rahman
3. Wladimir Klitschko
4. Chris Bryd
5. Evander Holyfield
6. John Ruiz
7. Vitali Klitschko
8. David Tua
9. Nicolay Valuev
10. James Toney

Rhaman at #2?

Holyfield at #5? Geez, Holyfield lost to Donald, *Toney, Ibragimov, and Ruiz this decade. He has beaten no one good.His prime was in the ealry to mid 90's, not the 2000's

Ruiz at #6? He got beat by two blown up middles, and Chagaev. By the way, Chagaev should rater as he beat your #6, and #9 guys and is undefeated.

Toney at #10? Where's Peter who is only lost once, but beat Toney twice?

My list would be

1. Lewis- Though he wasn't active for long, in the 00's and probaly belongs in the 90's.

2. Wlad.

3. Vitali.

4. Byrd.

The above fighters were all #1 in this decade at one time or another.
After the above 4, it gets a little murky.

-----------------------------------------

5. Chagaev

6. Rhaman

7. Tua

8. Peter

9. Brewster

10. Valuev

PowerPuncher

08-25-2011, 05:30 AM

Well, I certainly think that the Valuev win was a good one, and better than that of anything Toney did.

Nothing power puncher says can be taken seriously. Every fight involving a fighter that he doesn't favor, automatically is ruled as a robbery, when it doesn't go his way....

He is a Pea brain dickless shithead to say the least.........

I just wanted to add, Holyfield was robbed against Valuev and Toney beat him

lufcrazy

08-25-2011, 08:09 AM

Fromm 2000 onwards.

Lewis
Wlad
Vitali
Byrd

those 4 should pick themselves really imo.

Toney
Ruiz
Rahman
Golota
Holyfield
Brewster

the last 6 or so are hard to separate imo.

Lewis is mainly at the top because of his exploits in the 90's and his victories over Tyson and Vitali. the 00-09 era is split between Lewis and Wlad and I have no qualms with someone putting Wlad top due to his 10-11 success.

Cael

08-25-2011, 11:40 AM

Wlad
Lewis/Vitali
Byrd
Chagaev
Peter
Valuev
Brewster
Maskaev
Rahman

Kalasinn

08-25-2011, 11:47 AM

How would you guys rank Golota in this topic, if he got the decisions for the WBA & IBF titles against Ruiz & Byrd in 2004?

I thought Andrew won both of those fights.

mr. magoo

08-25-2011, 12:05 PM

I just want to point out, that this thread was constructed by SuzieQ around mid 2008. Therefore, the ratings for that decade should really only span from 2000-2009. Anything that occurred after 09' has to be discluded. Since the forming of the thread, Vitali Klitschko has returned, recapturing the WBC title from Sam Peter in the fall of 2008, then fighting Gomez, Arreola, and Johnson in 09'.

mr. magoo

08-25-2011, 12:13 PM

I just wanted to add, Holyfield was robbed against Valuev and Toney beat him

Holyfield was completely shot in both of those fights, and its debatable as to weather or not Evander deserved the nod against Valuev. At best I'd say the fight was probably worthy of a draw verdict, but there are many who scored it going in favor of either man.

In any case, James Toney's heavyweight record between 2003-2009 was 6-2-1-2, plus a no contest to boot. I know that you write off his NC with Rahman and first loss to Peter as either being crap verdicts or robberies, but like it or not, that's the way the cookie crumbles. You should also note that he had very close split decsion wins over the mediocre Danny Batchelder and Fres Oquendo. I did not see these fights, but given their close scoring, I bet that there are probably some who would just as willingly call them robberies, as you have called some of his losses. Losing to Peter twice and the inability to get a victory over hasim Rahman in two meetings, plus beating an ancient Holyfield does not alot him any respectable rating during this time frame, in my opinion.