Lennox Lewis' opposition

[Big Ukrainian]

Some Lewis' fans say that Lewis has much better resume than Holyfield. Well, Lewis lost only twice, but he retired at the age of 37 (Should Holy have retired at 37, he should've had 4 losses, not8 ). Lewis lost to McCall (tko2) and Rachman (ko5), both average fighters. Holyfield lost to Bowe twice (by decision and tko8 ), Moorer and Lewis (both by decision). Lewis won the rematches, and so did Holy with Bowe and Moorer.

Wins:
Both Lewis and Holy had very good resume. It's ridiculous to say Lewis' resume was much better. Lewis holds wins over ATG Holyfield (though past his prime) and totally shot Tyson (who was stopped twice in his next 3 fights by jorneymen). Besides these wins, Lennox beat many strong fighters. But the best are Mercer and Vitali. They are better than Ruddock, Tucker, Morrison, Golata, Mason, Grant, Briggs.

Let's take a closer look on Lewis resume (I'm neither Lewis' fan nor hater):

Mason - good win over unproven fighter

Ruddock is overestimated because of his losses to Tyson, but he was stopped by Morrison (Lewis and Mercer victim) and had weak chin.

Tucker - strong enough, but past his prime.

Bruno - good win, but Bruno was not great fighter.

Jackson - who is this guy (lost to Jeremy Williams by Ko 1, and was stopped by Nielsen in 6) !!!???

Butler - jorneyman

Fortune - punching bag

Morrison - good win!

Mercer - very good win!

McCall and Akinwande - bizzare fights but still good wins for Lewis

Golata - as you know, Golata was overestimated at that time because of his fights with Bowe, has a weak mentality and was stopped by Brewster in 52 seconds.

Briggs - well, somebody says 42-years old Foreman was not good enough to earn a title shot. Briggs clearly lost to 49-years old Foreman but still is concidered by some as a strong contender

Mavrovic - unknown european fighter, who has never fought top-30 fighter besides Lewis.

Holy - great win

Grant - is VERY overestimated. Was stopped By McCline in his next fight (0:43 of 1 rd), and demolished by jorneyman Guinn.

Botha - had lost all of his big fights by KO.

Tua - good win over limited but very danderous contender

Rachman - impressive win over B-level fighter

Tyson - easy win for Lewis over totally shot ATG fighter

Klitchko - clearly one of the best Lewis' wins (though Vitali was stopped on cuts), maybe the best.

Lewis has a great resume, he had defeated many tough contenders and world titlists, but it's strange to say his resume is much better than Holy's.

[barneyrub]

Some Lewis' fans say that Lewis has much better resume than Holyfield. Well, Lewis lost only twice, but he retired at the age of 37 (Should Holy have retired at 37, he should've had 4 losses, not8 ). Lewis lost to McCall (tko2) and Rachman (ko5), both average fighters. Holyfield lost to Bowe twice (by decision and tko8 ), Moorer and Lewis (both by decision). Lewis won the rematches, and so did Holy with Bowe and Moorer.

Wins:
Both Lewis and Holy had very good resume. It's ridiculous to say Lewis' resume was much better. Lewis holds wins over ATG Holyfield (though past his prime) and totally shot Tyson (who was stopped twice in his next 3 fights by jorneymen). Besides these wins, Lennox beat many strong fighters. But the best are Mercer and Vitali. They are better than Ruddock, Tucker, Morrison, Golata, Mason, Grant, Briggs.

Let's take a closer look on Lewis resume (I'm neither Lewis' fan nor hater):

Mason - good win over unproven fighter

Ruddock is overestimated because of his losses to Tyson, but he was stopped by Morrison (Lewis and Mercer victim) and had weak chin.

Tucker - strong enough, but past his prime.

Bruno - good win, but Bruno was not great fighter.

Jackson - who is this guy (lost to Jeremy Williams by Ko 1, and was stopped by Nielsen in 6) !!!???

Butler - jorneyman

Fortune - punching bag

Morrison - good win!

Mercer - very good win!

McCall and Akinwande - bizzare fights but still good wins for Lewis

Golata - as you know, Golata was overestimated at that time because of his fights with Bowe, has a weak mentality and was stopped by Brewster in 52 seconds.

Briggs - well, somebody says 42-years old Foreman was not good enough to earn a title shot. Briggs clearly lost to 49-years old Foreman but still is concidered by some as a strong contender

Mavrovic - unknown european fighter, who has never fought top-30 fighter besides Lewis.

Holy - great win

Grant - is VERY overestimated. Was stopped By McCline in his next fight (0:43 of 1 rd), and demolished by jorneyman Guinn.

Botha - had lost all of his big fights by KO.

Tua - good win over limited but very danderous contender

Rachman - impressive win over B-level fighter

Tyson - easy win for Lewis over totally shot ATG fighter

Klitchko - clearly one of the best Lewis' wins (though Vitali was topped on cuts), maybe the best.

Lewis has a great resume, he had defeated many tough contenders and world titlists, but it's strange to say his resume is much better than Holy's.You can pick apart anyones resume if your biased! Lewis retired at 38 not 37.
Dont you think Bowe would merit the title of average also, he never beat anyone else of any standard. The mccall loss was a tko not a ko. Average fighters maybe mcaal and rahman but more than 10 years later mcall is ranked number 3 today. As for Rahman history will show him being a 2 time champion, people talk up sanders soley for knocking out wlad, Rahman stopped sanders, in fact he did it a rd earlier than vitali did and put him down twice which vitali failed to do once!
Holyfields best ever unbeaten championship run was in the lead up to the lewis fight. No doubt your one of the posters who think he merits a title shot now at age 45!
Tyson was coming off the golota fight where people said he looked goodand neilsen which he said wasa his best performance since his comeback. You cant really say so what that he lost to lewis because he lost twice afterwards. Everybody saw the difference in demeanor in him after the lewis loss, e stopped trying to be the monster or to put up a front, he had such a beating he knew he couldnt get away with that behaviour5 anymore and from the post fight interview on we saw that. It was almost a year later tha he fought ettiene, it was a year later, 2 years and a month after the lewis fight that he fought williams. Everyone said how good he looked then he supposedly blew his knee. The mcbride fight was a year after the williams fight, 3 years after lewis and without a trainer, fenech is no trainer, he quit, he wasnt stooped, he quit. Without the viciousness that lewis knocked out of him and the injury and age he then found he didnt want to fight even for the money by this time. Williams and mcbride were meant to be easy quick wins, not fights wheras he knew lewis would be. He wanted to redeem his place in history by eatn lewis, he talked about wanting to be remembered and of wanting the glory but being dissapointed that all he got out of that loss was money.

[Jennifer Love Hewitt]

Anyone can make up excuses to make a fighter's resume look bad...Since you were using Holyfiled as the comparison. Let's take a qucik look at his fights:

Buster Douglas: Unmotivated fatman.

Geroge Foreman: Any fight against a 40+ year old man can't hold much weight.

Larry Holmes: See "foreman". Also of note, Iron Mike KOed a younger Larry than did Coammander headbutt. and for some reason Tyson gets no props fpor that victory, so niether can Holyfield.

Bowe I-III: Bowe has proven to be a nobody. His only accomplishment was beating Holyfield twice. Bowe had the tar kicked out of him by Golota.

Bowe II- Holy wins, but if you want to play the "let's nit pick and come up with every excuse game, theres the bizzare fan man incident...

Moorer: Moorer has a china chin, yet Holyfield let him go to the 12th and get a victory.

Ray Mercer: Good win.

Tyson: This is Holyfield signature win. A good win over Iron Mike.

Tyson II: Well, this one was a head scratcher. A win for Holy, but more of a meltdown from Iron Mike.

Moorer II: This is what Holyfield should have done in the first fight.

Lennox Lewis I - II: Lewis (really) beat Holyfield twice. No shame there, Lewis is an ATG. On the hateraide side... If Rahman was able to stop Lewis, Holy couldn't...Holy must suck.




You can play this game with anyone. I can make Ali look like a chump by being all selective with my memory. Evander Holyfield, Lennox Lewis, they are BOTH great fighters. Lennox Lewis' heavyweight resume is more impressive. He defeated more dangerous fighters, and had fewer losses. You convienently discounted some of his opponents in hindsight. (Does old man Golota's loss to Brewster, demean Lewis defeat of a MUCH fresher Golota?)
Now, when you add in Evander's reign as the greatest Cruiser weight EVER, then you can say that Evander has a better resume than Lewis. But at heavyweight, Lewis was king.

[Big Ukrainian]

You can pick apart anyones resume if your biased! Lewis retired at 38 not 37.

You are wrong. His last fight was 26 june 2003. Lewis was born 02 september 1965. He was 37 years old. (37 years 9 months). When Holy was 37 years 9 months old (July 2000), he had a 36-4-1 record. This is true. Correct your answer please!

[ChrisPontius]

Ruddock is overestimated because of his losses to Tyson, but he was stopped by Morrison (Lewis and Mercer victim) and had weak chin.


A weak chin?

You're telling me a man who goes 19 rounds with a prime (not peak but still prime and prepared) Tyson and has a weak chin? The stoppage in their first fight was bullshit.

Gotta love ESB, you go two fights with a prime Mike Tyson without being stopped legitimitly you still have a weak chin. :lol:


And what is overestimated about him? He scored a clear knockout against Bonecrusher Smith. Smith went the full distance with Tyson without being hurt or down. Beat Weaver and knocked out Dokes and Page.

It's hard to find Lewis' best win outside of Holyfield twice.
But one thing is for sure to me: Mercer is not it.
Klitschko probably. Tua was also a great win. Let's not forget that Tua lost only once to Ibeabuchi (who himself was spectacular) by a close decision; many people including myself scored that fight for Tua.
Lewis won all 12 rounds against him in a shutout win.
The Golota and Ruddock wins should also be considered. Ruddock gave good showings against Tyson yet was blown away in 2 by Lewis.

Golota had just thoroughly beaten the guy who Holyfield fans hype up to an ATG to excuse Holyfield for losing to him (Bowe). He was seen as one of the best current fighters and had not "really" been beaten at that point. Lewis knocked him out in 60 seconds including the 16 seconds Golota got to recover when he was wobbling around the entire ring, if only Lewis was fortunate to receive that against McCall. The Brewster stoppage came a full seven years later when Golota was past his best yet still had very close fights with two belt holders Byrd and Ruiz, who Lewis "ducked".

[ChrisPontius]

You are wrong. His last fight was 26 june 2003. Lewis was born 02 september 1965. He was 37 years old. (37 years 9 months). When Holy was 37 years 9 months old (July 2000), he had a 36-4-1 record. This is true. Correct your answer please!

Lewis was still the champion in 2004. It was only AFTER Klitschko destroyed Johnson in two that he announced his retirement, at which point his age was 38.

[Big Ukrainian]

Anyone can make up excuses to make a fighter's resume look bad...Since you were using Holyfiled as the comparison. Let's take a qucik look at his fights:

Buster Douglas: Unmotivated fatman.

Geroge Foreman: Any fight against a 40+ year old man can't hold much weight.

Larry Holmes: See "foreman". Also of note, Iron Mike KOed a younger Larry than did Coammander headbutt. and for some reason Tyson gets no props fpor that victory, so niether can Holyfield.

Bowe I-III: Bowe has proven to be a nobody. His only accomplishment was beating Holyfield twice. Bowe had the tar kicked out of him by Golota.

Bowe II- Holy wins, but if you want to play the "let's nit pick and come up with every excuse game, theres the bizzare fan man incident...

Moorer: Moorer has a china chin, yet Holyfield let him go to the 12th and get a victory.

Tyson: This is Holyfield signature win. A good win over Iron Mike.

Tyson II: Well, this one was a head scratcher. A win for Holy, but more of a meltdown from Iron Mike.

Moorer II: This is what Holyfield should have done in the first fight.

Lennox Lewis I - II: Lewis (really) beat Holyfield twice. No shame there, Lewis is an ATG. On the hateraide side... If Rahman was able to stop Lewis, Holy couldn't...Holy must suck.
Hey man, why do you start from Doudlas?

Former WBA HW champion 30 years-old Dokes 37-1-2 (comeback of 1988 year by The Ring) - good win (much better than Botha or Grant)

Former WBC HW champion 30 years-old Thomas (29-2-1) wasn't that bad - good win for Holy

Stewart and Rodrigues of course are not A-level fighters but they are not punching bags

Douglas - yes he was fat but he was undisputed HW champion at the time coming off 3 concecutive wins over Berbick, McCall and ATG Tyson

Foreman - at least he was much better than Briggs at that stage of his career. 3 years later he became linear HW champion. 6 years later he went on to beat Briggs easily, but was robbed.

Cooper - he is not worse than Butler in Lewis' resume.

Holmes - at 42 he easily beat prime Mercer. 3 years later Holmes lost to McCall by 1 point margin in title fight right after McCall stopped Lewis.

Bowe - great win for Holy

Mercer - good win in his resume (Holy even knocked Mercer down)

Czyz - surely not the best win:)

Tyson - great win over past prime but definitely not shot Tyson, world champ at the time

Moorer - good win (rematch)

Bean = Mavrovic in Lewis' resume

At the age of 39 Holy went on to beat Rachman easily (won every single round). He beat Ruiz too, but we don't estimate these wins because Lennox was retired at this age.

It is hard to say that one of them has much better resume (I mean Holy or Lennox). Both are ATG fighters in terms of accomplishments. Both are top 10 all-time heavyweights.

P.S. Don't call me a Lewis' hater. The problem on this forum is if you don't call Lewis Greatest p4p fighter of all time, you authomatically become Lewis' hater :lol::lol::lol::rofl

[Big Ukrainian]

And, of course, Lewis beat many fighters who were better than Ruddock (Klitschko, Morrison, who Ko'd Ruddock, Tua, Holyfield)

[Bazooka]

Of course Evander has a better resume andybody who thinks other wise dont have a good set of eyes.

[Zakman]

Lewis has a great resume, he had defeated many tough contenders and world titlists, but it's strange to say his resume is much better than Holy's.
Because it's NOT. Overall the resumes are VERY similar. The difference lies in who was starched twice in the early rounds, and in who actually beat two of the other top fighters of the era when they were dangerous opponents.

Lewis, of course, was rendered unconscious or unable to continue in the early rounds by two VERY ordinary HW contenders - which never happened to Holyfield, ever. In fact, the only time HE was knocked out in the heart of his career was against one of the best HWs of the era in Bowe - and it took EIGHT rounds to do it in a competitive fight!

And, of course, Holyfield faced Tyson and Bowe when it mattered, not when they were either past their prime or washed up, as Lewis did with Holyfield himself, and Tyson.

When you examine the records clearly, it should be quite clear who has the greater overall resume - Evander "Real Deal" Holyfield!:yep

[Bazooka]

Because it's NOT. Overall the resumes are VERY similar. The difference lies in who was starched twice in the early rounds, and in who actually beat two of the other top fighters of the era when they were dangerous opponents.

Lewis, of course, was rendered unconscious or unable to continue in the early rounds by two VERY ordinary HW contenders - which never happened to Holyfield, ever. In fact, the only time HE was knocked out in the heart of his career was against one of the best HWs of the era in Bowe - and it took EIGHT rounds to do it in a competitive fight!

And, of course, Holyfield faced Tyson and Bowe when it mattered, not when they were either past their prime or washed up, as Lewis did with Holyfield himself, and Tyson.

When you examine the records clearly, it should be quite clear who has the greater overall resume - Evander "Real Deal" Holyfield!:yep

Looks like someone woke up with some good coffee this morning, Zak is that you?:huh

[sean]

Some Lewis' fans say that Lewis has much better resume than Holyfield. Well, Lewis lost only twice, but he retired at the age of 37 (Should Holy have retired at 37, he should've had 4 losses, not8 ). Lewis lost to McCall (tko2) and Rachman (ko5), both average fighters. Holyfield lost to Bowe twice (by decision and tko8 ), Moorer and Lewis (both by decision). Lewis won the rematches, and so did Holy with Bowe and Moorer.

Wins:
Both Lewis and Holy had very good resume. It's ridiculous to say Lewis' resume was much better. Lewis holds wins over ATG Holyfield (though past his prime) and totally shot Tyson (who was stopped twice in his next 3 fights by jorneymen). Besides these wins, Lennox beat many strong fighters. But the best are Mercer and Vitali. They are better than Ruddock, Tucker, Morrison, Golata, Mason, Grant, Briggs.

Let's take a closer look on Lewis resume (I'm neither Lewis' fan nor hater):

Mason - good win over unproven fighter

Ruddock is overestimated because of his losses to Tyson, but he was stopped by Morrison (Lewis and Mercer victim) and had weak chin.

Tucker - strong enough, but past his prime.

Bruno - good win, but Bruno was not great fighter.

Jackson - who is this guy (lost to Jeremy Williams by Ko 1, and was stopped by Nielsen in 6) !!!???

Butler - jorneyman

Fortune - punching bag

Morrison - good win!

Mercer - very good win!

McCall and Akinwande - bizzare fights but still good wins for Lewis

Golata - as you know, Golata was overestimated at that time because of his fights with Bowe, has a weak mentality and was stopped by Brewster in 52 seconds.

Briggs - well, somebody says 42-years old Foreman was not good enough to earn a title shot. Briggs clearly lost to 49-years old Foreman but still is concidered by some as a strong contender

Mavrovic - unknown european fighter, who has never fought top-30 fighter besides Lewis.

Holy - great win

Grant - is VERY overestimated. Was stopped By McCline in his next fight (0:43 of 1 rd), and demolished by jorneyman Guinn.

Botha - had lost all of his big fights by KO.

Tua - good win over limited but very danderous contender

Rachman - impressive win over B-level fighter

Tyson - easy win for Lewis over totally shot ATG fighter

Klitchko - clearly one of the best Lewis' wins (though Vitali was stopped on cuts), maybe the best.

Lewis has a great resume, he had defeated many tough contenders and world titlists, but it's strange to say his resume is much better than Holy's.

mason 35-0 (34 ko) could you imagine the hype of a fighter like that today.

ruddock, you do know the tournament was created because holyfield did not want to fight his mandatory (ruddock ) so lewis had to fight him after rock newman also said there was no way bowe would fight ruddock.

butler, again you might not remember but i do, butler was on a winning streak of something like 16-0(16 ko) and there was no one in the division who would fight him , until lewis agreed in a final eliminator.

also one point that should be noted.

lewis would not sign with king and had to fight all the fighters everybody elase stepped aside for and whats more he had to do it in his opponents backyard time after time after time, whereas hoilyfield had home advantage his whole career .

[Zakman]

Looks like someone woke up with some good coffee this morning, Zak is that you?:huh

Yeah, I actually got in so late last night I woke up early!! But dig this, the bar I went to had Friday Night Fights on the big-screen! They musta known I was coming!!:lol:

[Stewbear]

Um anyone who thinks ruddock had a weak chin watch the morrison fight it is a wonder ruddock is still alive.

[Zakman]

Both holyfield and Lewis rank below tyson.

Interesting thesis. How do you justify this? Personally, I can't see it with regard to Holyfield. Unlike Holyfield, Tyson lost to any great fighter he ever faced. Holyfield's only prime loss was to Bowe who was one of the best fighters of the era. Tyson, on the other hand, was beaten by Douglas, who no one is gonna put up there as one of the best.

I can see Tyson over Lewis on grounds of dominance and not getting laid out early by second-raters. Holyfield, no way.

[barneyrub]

Hey man, why do you start from Doudlas?

Former WBA HW champion 30 years-old Dokes 37-1-2 (comeback of 1988 year by The Ring) - good win (much better than Botha or Grant)

Former WBC HW champion 30 years-old Thomas (29-2-1) wasn't that bad - good win for Holy

Stewart and Rodrigues of course are not A-level fighters but they are not punching bags

Douglas - yes he was fat but he was undisputed HW champion at the time coming off 3 concecutive wins over Berbick, McCall and ATG Tyson

Foreman - at least he was much better than Briggs at that stage of his career. 3 years later he became linear HW champion. 6 years later he went on to beat Briggs easily, but was robbed.

Cooper - he is not worse than Butler in Lewis' resume.

Holmes - at 42 he easily beat prime Mercer. 3 years later Holmes lost to McCall by 1 point margin in title fight right after McCall stopped Lewis.

Bowe - great win for Holy

Mercer - good win in his resume (Holy even knocked Mercer down)

Czyz - surely not the best win:)

Tyson - great win over past prime but definitely not shot Tyson, world champ at the time

Moorer - good win (rematch)

Bean = Mavrovic in Lewis' resume

At the age of 39 Holy went on to beat Rachman easily (won every single round). He beat Ruiz too, but we don't estimate these wins because Lennox was retired at this age.

It is hard to say that one of them has much better resume (I mean Holy or Lennox). Both are ATG fighters in terms of accomplishments. Both are top 10 all-time heavyweights.

P.S. Don't call me a Lewis' hater. The problem on this forum is if you don't call Lewis Greatest p4p fighter of all time, you authomatically become Lewis' hater :lol::lol::lol::roflwhen you say holyfield beat rahman easily your credibility falls. The fight ended due to a headbutt and went to the scorecard in a technical decision. This was acouple of rounds after the butt occurred and after the swelling was targeted for those rounds, so rahman was fighting disabled in those rounds but actually the technicl decision still was a split one!!!!!!!! So winning a split decision due to a headbut is great in your eyes lol. Its interesting also to not Rahman went down to 224 for that fight, he won the title at 238 and is usually in the 240`s, so holyfield won by split decision headbutt versus a weight weakend Rahman, wow.

[sean]

Tysons prime is from 1986-1988. he was 2 years removed from his prime in the douglas fight. Tyson looks better on film, and destroyed everyone he faced and there were no off nights ( bert cooper, frank bruno for lewis)

IMO that was because all the fighters that got in the ring with tyson in that time period had already lost in there minds.

hardly any put up a fight to actually win, except in the very last round in bonecrushers case that i remember.

can only remember a former cuban before tyson became champ and a famous trialhorse , whose name escapes me for the sec who even tried to have a go.

mind you it was not just his opponents it was the media /the fans and myself included who thought tyson was unbeatable.

[hobgoblin]

i rate holy because he'd win prime for prime against lewis (see my explanation the wish i had 10 years to give back thead) and because i care for quality over quantity. i personally think holy beating 1996 mike tyson is better achievment than anything lewis did EXCEPT whipping the same version of holy that beat mike (:lol:) but so to correct myself i'll say bowe + tyson + mercer > mercer + vitali + holyfield ; the contenders cancel each other out imo. i also discount holy's career after 2001 (he was 39 then) just as we cancelled holmes' career in the 50s.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Thomas was even on the cards using a jab move uppercut strategy before getting obliterated



True. A way past it, coked up version of Thomas, who'd looked awful in his previous 4 fights.

[sean]

Mitch Green--huggy bear show , despite the altercation he ran and held

Marvis Frazier lamb caught in the headlights.
Jose Ribalta was the cuban who gave a good effort.
bonecrusher-was another huggy bear fight
Pinklon Thomas-yep he tried
Tony Tucker-broke his hand in the second i think and just hanged on from there.
Tyrell Biggs-tyson said he cried like a girl.
Tony Tubbs favourite singer chaka khan aka breakdance.
Michael Spinks-reportedly wrote out his will in the changing room.

in 1986 tyson had the aura of invincibitlity about him and was said to be unbeatable , which i to beleived at the time.

[barneyrub]

Tysons prime is from 1986-1988. he was 2 years removed from his prime in the douglas fight. Tyson looks better on film, and destroyed everyone he faced and there were no off nights ( bert cooper, frank bruno for lewis)Ha ha, the most excuses ever made for a fighter all belong to Tyson. If he lost oh he wasnt in his prime anymore or his wife had pmt lol, he was drugged is another good one especially when the comission doctors came out and said he was on no medication and they tested his urine after the fight also lol. There is always an excuse. Then we have Holyfield with his flu during the Bowe fight, there was the heart attack which dr goodman recently attributed to him using hgh, the leg cramps. Then wlad with his poisoned water bottle, he must have had read a preview of foremans book. Unbelievably vitali said that wlads recent win proved he had something in his system when he lost the first fight, lol, maybe the opponent having 2 eyes in the first fight made a difference!

At least Lewis never came out with excuses he just went back in the ring and beat the guy in a rematch as soon as possible.

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[Zakman]

At least Lewis never came out with excuses he just went back in the ring and beat the guy in a rematch as soon as possible.

Maybe Lewis himself didn't make the excuses, but his FANS sure do - they've got every excuse in the book for why he never faced Bowe, faced Holyfield and Tyson when they were on the downside, or in Tyson's case DONE, why he got laid out by second-raters twice in the early rounds, etc. etc, etc.

There are few fighters, in fact, for whom so MANY excuses are made to try and overrate him and place him above Tyson, and particularly Holyfield - the best HW of the era!!:yep

[pjo479]

the only guy i question on both there resumes is tyson.... i think hold had tyson just a tad bit closer to being atleast competitive but all in all they had pretty good resumes .... tough to call :good

[C.J.Rock]

Some Lewis' fans say that Lewis has much better resume than Holyfield. Well, Lewis lost only twice, but he retired at the age of 37 (Should Holy have retired at 37, he should've had 4 losses, not8 ). Lewis lost to McCall (tko2) and Rachman (ko5), both average fighters. Holyfield lost to Bowe twice (by decision and tko8 ), Moorer and Lewis (both by decision). Lewis won the rematches, and so did Holy with Bowe and Moorer.

Wins:
Both Lewis and Holy had very good resume. It's ridiculous to say Lewis' resume was much better. Lewis holds wins over ATG Holyfield (though past his prime) and totally shot Tyson (who was stopped twice in his next 3 fights by jorneymen). Besides these wins, Lennox beat many strong fighters. But the best are Mercer and Vitali. They are better than Ruddock, Tucker, Morrison, Golata, Mason, Grant, Briggs.

Let's take a closer look on Lewis resume (I'm neither Lewis' fan nor hater):

Mason - good win over unproven fighter

Ruddock is overestimated because of his losses to Tyson, but he was stopped by Morrison (Lewis and Mercer victim) and had weak chin.

Tucker - strong enough, but past his prime.

Bruno - good win, but Bruno was not great fighter.

Jackson - who is this guy (lost to Jeremy Williams by Ko 1, and was stopped by Nielsen in 6) !!!???

Butler - jorneyman

Fortune - punching bag

Morrison - good win!

Mercer - very good win!

McCall and Akinwande - bizzare fights but still good wins for Lewis

Golata - as you know, Golata was overestimated at that time because of his fights with Bowe, has a weak mentality and was stopped by Brewster in 52 seconds.

Briggs - well, somebody says 42-years old Foreman was not good enough to earn a title shot. Briggs clearly lost to 49-years old Foreman but still is concidered by some as a strong contender

Mavrovic - unknown european fighter, who has never fought top-30 fighter besides Lewis.

Holy - great win

Grant - is VERY overestimated. Was stopped By McCline in his next fight (0:43 of 1 rd), and demolished by jorneyman Guinn.

Botha - had lost all of his big fights by KO.

Tua - good win over limited but very danderous contender

Rachman - impressive win over B-level fighter

Tyson - easy win for Lewis over totally shot ATG fighter

Klitchko - clearly one of the best Lewis' wins (though Vitali was stopped on cuts), maybe the best.

Lewis has a great resume, he had defeated many tough contenders and world titlists, but it's strange to say his resume is much better than Holy's.

Lewis is the best HW since Ali no doubt about it
When you say Golota lost twice to Bowe you forgot to say Golota was beating the shit out of Bowe both times the crazy man went and got himself DQ'd or he'd have had two easy wins after Bowe
Funny how fighters were never the same after a Lewis beating huh?
Ruddock, Golota, Tua, Grant etc. Vitaly has TALKED a lot since Lewis stopped him but talk dont win fights

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Arise Sir Lennox !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:bbb :bbb :bbb :bbb :smoke :smoke :smoke :rasta :rasta :rasta

[C.J.Rock]

Maybe Lewis himself didn't make the excuses, but his FANS sure do - they've got every excuse in the book for why he never faced Bowe, faced Holyfield and Tyson when they were on the downside, or in Tyson's case DONE, why he got laid out by second-raters twice in the early rounds, etc. etc, etc.

There are few fighters, in fact, for whom so MANY excuses are made to try and overrate him and place him above Tyson, and particularly Holyfield - the best HW of the era!!:yep

What absolute bullshit this is....
Bowe was scared shitless to get in the ring with Lewis When the 4 man tourney was set up Bowe wanted Holyfield who he considered the easist. He'd already ducked Lewis and turned down a Ruddock fight, and let the two best Lewis and Ruddock beat each other. Lewis destroyed Ruddock and Bowe took to the hills I was present when Lennox and a girl dressed as Chicken Bowe taunted Bowe over that it was hilarious.
Tyson ducked Lewis a couple of times King even paid Lewis $4 mil to stand down and let Tyson fight Seldon with Lennox getting next shot. when Lewis wanted his title shot Tyson discarded the WBC title rather than have to fight Lewis same as Chicken Bowe had done
Holyfield kept away from Lewis as long as he could then look what happened King came up with Eugenia Wiliams and Larry O conner to make sure Holyfield kept his title Lennox won 9 out of the 12 rounds in that fight EASY.
Know the facts before you make an ass of yourself again my friend

:bbb :bbb :bbb :smoke :smoke :smoke :rasta :rasta :rasta :bbb :bbb :bbb

[Zakman]

What absolute bullshit this is....
Bowe was scared shitless to get in the ring with Lewis When the 4 man tourney was set up Bowe wanted Holyfield who he considered the easist. He'd already ducked Lewis and turned down a Ruddock fight, and let the two best Lewis and Ruddock beat each other. Lewis destroyed Ruddock and Bowe took to the hills I was present when Lennox and a girl dressed as Chicken Bowe taunted Bowe over that it was hilarious.
Tyson ducked Lewis a couple of times King even paid Lewis $4 mil to stand down and let Tyson fight Seldon with Lennox getting next shot. when Lewis wanted his title shot Tyson discarded the WBC title rather than have to fight Lewis same as Chicken Bowe had done
Holyfield kept away from Lewis as long as he could then look what happened King came up with Eugenia Wiliams and Larry O conner to make sure Holyfield kept his title Lennox won 9 out of the 12 rounds in that fight EASY.

Thanks for providing a prototypical example of some of the classic excuses made for Lewis - clear evidence of everything I said! :yep

Are you the guy that wrote all those bogus "Chicken Bowe" press releases back in the early 90s?? Sound like you're STILL using the same material, if that's the case!:rofl

[Big Ukrainian]

when you say holyfield beat rahman easily your credibility falls. The fight ended due to a headbutt and went to the scorecard in a technical decision. This was acouple of rounds after the butt occurred and after the swelling was targeted for those rounds, so rahman was fighting disabled in those rounds but actually the technicl decision still was a split one!!!!!!!! So winning a split decision due to a headbut is great in your eyes lol. Its interesting also to not Rahman went down to 224 for that fight, he won the title at 238 and is usually in the 240`s, so holyfield won by split decision headbutt versus a weight weakend Rahman, wow.

Scores after 7 rds were: 6-1 Holy, 3-4 Rachman :huh, 6-1 Holy. Holyfield clearly won that fight.

[hobgoblin]

Scores after 7 rds were: 6-1 Holy, 3-4 Rachman :huh, 6-1 Holy. Holyfield clearly won that fight.

you also have to consider that holy was 39 in that fight - pretty good for a 39 year old who had fought wars with bowe, tyson, & lewis! i don't think one should realy observe his career after moorer 2 - but i suppose you can stretch till this one. even if lennox was 39 against vitali (great win!) - he didn't have as many wars as holyfield.

it's tough to look at holy overall - if you did that, then you should pick tyson over him (but we know better - you gotta look at holy at his best). holy was a busier, faster boxer (for my money better) than lennox but lennox's special quality was his power - which would be greatly ignored with holy's granite chin and warrior heart on the score cards - as is what happened to iron mike.

[Zakman]

you also have to consider that holy was 39 in that fight - pretty good for a 39 year old who had fought wars with bowe, tyson, & lewis! i don't think one should realy observe his career after moorer 2....

Exactly. Holyfield was CLEARLY on the downside after the second Moorer fight, perhaps even before it.:yep

[bill poster]

Tyson was younger than Lewis- if he was past his best thats his doing. I really don't get the Lewis haters at all- a great warrior who never doubted himself. Never gave in to Don King and looked after his staff. Best thing Lewis did was hang his gloves when he did. I'm sure he feels he did'nt get the send off he deserved due to the manner of his last defence but he went out on a legit win to a fighter he didnt train for.

[Brighton bomber]

While Lewis opposition was very good, I can't see how anyone thinks Holyfields opposition was worse when it's obvious that just isn't the case. While you can make an argument for Lewis being the better fighter you can't say he beat better opposition.

[hobgoblin]

Tyson was younger than Lewis- if he was past his best thats his doing.

It is about style. Dempsey, Frazier, Marciano ALL RETIRED by 32 years of age. You naturally lose speed and reflexes at 36 (Tyson was 3 weeks shy of his birthday) that you need to make up for size. Lewis didn't have that dependency.

I really don't get the Lewis haters at all- a great warrior who never doubted himself. Never gave in to Don King and looked after his staff. Best thing Lewis did was hang his gloves when he did. I'm sure he feels he did'nt get the send off he deserved due to the manner of his last defence but he went out on a legit win to a fighter he didnt train for.

Does rating Holyfield over Lewis making me a hater? That's funny criteria. I respect Lewis for the things you mentioned. I also think he left the sport in a great manner - exciting slugfest with the best contender barring Tyson, Holyfield, and Bowe in the last 15 years! I'd take Vitali over Golota (nutcase), Mercer, Tua, etc. Too bad Vitali could never maintain the momentum of his 2003 fight.

[El Bombasto]

Anyone can make up excuses to make a fighter's resume look bad...Since you were using Holyfiled as the comparison. Let's take a qucik look at his fights:

Buster Douglas: Unmotivated fatman.

Geroge Foreman: Any fight against a 40+ year old man can't hold much weight.

Larry Holmes: See "foreman". Also of note, Iron Mike KOed a younger Larry than did Coammander headbutt. and for some reason Tyson gets no props fpor that victory, so niether can Holyfield.

Bowe I-III: Bowe has proven to be a nobody. His only accomplishment was beating Holyfield twice. Bowe had the tar kicked out of him by Golota.

Bowe II- Holy wins, but if you want to play the "let's nit pick and come up with every excuse game, theres the bizzare fan man incident...

Moorer: Moorer has a china chin, yet Holyfield let him go to the 12th and get a victory.

Ray Mercer: Good win.

Tyson: This is Holyfield signature win. A good win over Iron Mike.

Tyson II: Well, this one was a head scratcher. A win for Holy, but more of a meltdown from Iron Mike.

Moorer II: This is what Holyfield should have done in the first fight.

Lennox Lewis I - II: Lewis (really) beat Holyfield twice. No shame there, Lewis is an ATG. On the hateraide side... If Rahman was able to stop Lewis, Holy couldn't...Holy must suck.




You can play this game with anyone. I can make Ali look like a chump by being all selective with my memory. Evander Holyfield, Lennox Lewis, they are BOTH great fighters. Lennox Lewis' heavyweight resume is more impressive. He defeated more dangerous fighters, and had fewer losses. You convienently discounted some of his opponents in hindsight. (Does old man Golota's loss to Brewster, demean Lewis defeat of a MUCH fresher Golota?)
Now, when you add in Evander's reign as the greatest Cruiser weight EVER, then you can say that Evander has a better resume than Lewis. But at heavyweight, Lewis was king.

Finally a reasonable post on this issue. Holyfield is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyy OVERRATED in this forum. Lewis beat him and that's the bottom line.

[barneyrub]

Scores after 7 rds were: 6-1 Holy, 3-4 Rachman :huh, 6-1 Holy. Holyfield clearly won that fight.not when you consider rahman boxed for 2 or 3 rds with an injury due to a headbutt for those scores to occur, if that had been against vitali just imagine the outcry on these boards lol. In this case everyone concedes Holyfield butted him so How can you ever call that a clear win.

[barneyrub]

Holyfield never fought anyone as good as Vitali in those years that people would consider his prime, Lewis beat a younger man in his prime in Vitali while himself being at his oldest and slowest, that alone counts for a lot.

[hobgoblin]

Holyfield never fought anyone as good as Vitali in those years that people would consider his prime, Lewis beat a younger man in his prime in Vitali while himself being at his oldest and slowest, that alone counts for a lot.
Yes he did. He beat 1996 Tyson - who would have beaten Vitali Klitschko (please, please don't tie me up under a burning fire and put me in front of the Klitschko fanatics who will dance around in circles and chant, trying to sacrifice me to Lord Vitali :lol::lol::lol:).

I do agree - that Vitali fight count for a lot (if you sacrifice me to the Klitschko fans - I'll make sure to bring back the delusional headbutt :lol: and the scorecards). I also rate Riddick Bowe over Vitali.

[Zakman]

Tyson isn't over Lewis or Holyfield

I agree with you on Holyfield. Tyson, imo, outranks Lewis slightly (#11, versus #13 for Lewis on my HW all-time list) on grounds of the dominance of his reign and because, prime for prime, he would have laid out the shaky-chinned Lewis worse than Rahman did.:yep

[barneyrub]

Yes he did. He beat 1996 Tyson - who would have beaten Vitali Klitschko (please, please don't tie me up under a burning fire and put me in front of the Klitschko fanatics who will dance around in circles and chant, trying to sacrifice me to Lord Vitali :lol::lol::lol:).

I do agree - that Vitali fight count for a lot (if you sacrifice me to the Klitschko fans - I'll make sure to bring back the delusional headbutt :lol: and the scorecards). I also rate Riddick Bowe over Vitali.Vitali has the sway back style and height to keep out of range, he has power and chin and would beat tyson. Wlad wouldnt have a chance though.

[hobgoblin]

Vitali has the sway back style and height to keep out of range, he has power and chin and would beat tyson. Wlad wouldnt have a chance though.

20 years from now - this silly stuff will reappare. I'm gonna do this one time.

To beat Tyson - you have to outbox or outmaneuver him. Vitali is a decent boxer but he does not have the handspeed nor the fluid jab nor the infighting ability to do what Douglas did. His jab isn't going to catch Tyson like Douglas' did, which was very fast. Tyson was a quick, elusive heavyweight. Clearly Tyson can handle Vitali's power (that is if Vitali lands enough - he doesn't have a great uppercut - an important punch to beat Tyson - see the Lewis fight).

Tyson would attack Vitali's body which would slow him down. Next, Tyson certainly had the speed and lunging ability to catch Vitali. He's fought comparably tall and rangy fighters and unfortunately Vitali has yet to prove that he is a great boxer. Tyson will get past Vitali's jabs, handle the right hands of Vitali if he needs to (at his best, Tyson could indeed recover froma good punch - see vs Ruddock, Bruno, Tucker etc - Vitali didn't hit harder than these guys for 1 punch). Tyson gets in range and nails Vitai's chin with combinations.

Tyson is a proven fighter - Vitali has yet to do that. He is at best an A contenders. I see now Lewis fans are trying to make this guy Godzilla to make Lewis look good or some are just of the delusion that 6 8" Vitali cannot be reached - bollocks.

[barneyrub]

20 years from now - this silly stuff will reappare. I'm gonna do this one time.

To beat Tyson - you have to outbox or outmaneuver him. Vitali is a decent boxer but he does not have the handspeed nor the fluid jab nor the infighting ability to do what Douglas did. His jab isn't going to catch Tyson like Douglas' did, which was very fast. Tyson was a quick, elusive heavyweight. Clearly Tyson can handle Vitali's power (that is if Vitali lands enough - he doesn't have a great uppercut - an important punch to beat Tyson - see the Lewis fight).

Tyson would attack Vitali's body which would slow him down. Next, Tyson certainly had the speed and lunging ability to catch Vitali. He's fought comparably tall and rangy fighters and unfortunately Vitali has yet to prove that he is a great boxer. Tyson will get past Vitali's jabs, handle the right hands of Vitali if he needs to (at his best, Tyson could indeed recover froma good punch - see vs Ruddock, Bruno, Tucker etc - Vitali didn't hit harder than these guys for 1 punch). Tyson gets in range and nails Vitai's chin with combinations.

Tyson is a proven fighter - Vitali has yet to do that. He is at best an A contenders. I see now Lewis fans are trying to make this guy Godzilla to make Lewis look good or some are just of the delusion that 6 8" Vitali cannot be reached - bollocks.vitali vs. wlad is the fight i want to see, vitali all the way.
Tyson is the most overated fighter in history, the highlight reels are amazing but when you watch the full fights he had many flaws and lots of trouble against every tall guy he fought.

[hobgoblin]

vitali vs. wlad is the fight i want to see, vitali all the way.
Tyson is the most overated fighter in history, the highlight reels are amazing but when you watch the full fights he had many flaws and lots of trouble against every tall guy he fought.
not really. in an attempt to not overrate him - people severely underrate him. LOTS OF TROUBLE? puhhhleeease. douglas and holy were the only ones to beat him - lewis got him when he was washed up so i don't count lewis loss (or include it if you wish). tyson comfortably won each decision people saying he struggled with tillis, tucker, smith etc. are ignoring all the rounds that tyson won and just focusing on a few moments. 8-4 againt tucker is not "lots of trouble". tyson beat lots of tall fighters and the one tall fighter that beat tyson was better than vitali (yeah vitali fans won't like this).

tyson vs lewis is 50/50 prime for prime, tyson vs vitali is tyson win

[barneyrub]

not really. in an attempt to not overrate him - people severely underrate him. LOTS OF TROUBLE? puhhhleeease. douglas and holy were the only ones to beat him - lewis got him when he was washed up so i don't count lewis loss (or include it if you wish). tyson comfortably won each decision people saying he struggled with tillis, tucker, smith etc. are ignoring all the rounds that tyson won and just focusing on a few moments. 8-4 againt tucker is not "lots of trouble". tyson beat lots of tall fighters and the one tall fighter that beat tyson was better than vitali (yeah vitali fans won't like this).

tyson vs lewis is 50/50 prime for prime, tyson vs vitali is tyson wineven biggs ws a struggle despite all the damage biggs endured he tied tyson up a lot and if you imagine a good fighter like vitali in that fight instead!

[hobgoblin]

even biggs ws a struggle despite all the damage biggs endured he tied tyson up a lot and if you imagine a good fighter like vitali in that fight instead!

surely you're being sarcastic. so vitali ties him up. so what. that still isn't enough to stop tyson from doing what he'd do.