Can a case be made that SRR ducked dangerous opponents?

[Bokaj]

And, if so, how should it effect his legacy?

[TommyV]

Examples? I can't think of anyone he avoided other than Charley Burley. The guy fought something like 24 HOF's and was WW champ and MW champion 5 times. It shouldn't affect his legacy. He's definately top 3 p4p of all-time no matter what.

[Sweet Pea]

Burley
Cocoa Kid
Jack Chase
Holman Williams
Eddie Booker

Just a few. McGrain should be able to help me out here. He drove a very hard bargain with his fights.

[acb]

Burley
Cocoa Kid
Jack Chase
Holman Williams
Eddie Booker

Just a few. McGrain should be able to help me out here. He drove a very hard bargain with his fights.

I think Suzie Q once made a thread about this, he has a list somewhere.

[teeto]

Yea, mcgrain will be here shortly, i guarantee it!

I think it was just about money with Robinson, he wanted to be paid good for dangerous opponents, but one way or another he did duck Burley, i still have him as the greatest though

[teeto]

No Kid Gavilan avatar acb??

[Nobudius]

A case can be made, but a VERY weak one IMHO. Some of those guys mentioned just weren't in the right place, at the right time(mostly nearing the end). The strongest case was probably Burley, but even his case is highly debatable on being "ducked".

It's a good topic to look into though.

[Sweet Pea]

The strongest case was probably Burley, but even his case is highly debatable on being "ducked".I think it's pretty clear that Robinson ducked him, although that's not to say he couldn't have beaten Burley. Burley twice offered him the biggest purse of his career.

[acb]

No Kid Gavilan avatar acb??

Its coming back, I found a few more good ones today.

Thought it may good to switch it up for a while.

[teeto]

Its coming back, I found a few more good ones today.

Thought it may good to switch it up for a while.
YOU HAVE NO LOYALTY! Kidding, ive laways stuck to the same avatar, might change it though, not sure what to have though, i'll have a look now actually, theres some great young Duran shots, gimme a minit!

[acb]

YOU HAVE NO LOYALTY! Kidding, ive laways stuck to the same avatar, might change it though, not sure what to have though, i'll have a look now actually, theres some great young Duran shots, gimme a minit!

I love this one:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Or this: just go to Roberto Duran, great shot..

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[SuzieQ49]

The Men Sugar Ray Robinson could have fought in early-mid 1940s but didn't


Cocoa Kid
Holman Williams
Charley Burley
Archie Moore
Jack Chase
Eddie Booker
Lloyd Marshall
Ezzard Charles




If Robinson was willing to step up and fight Jake Lamotta 5 times in the early 1940s, he could have stepped up and fought some of these men too. Did Robinson duck these men? no. did he miss out on fighting some of them? yes

[acb]

The Men Sugar Ray Robinson could have fought in early-mid 1940s but didn't


Cocoa Kid
Holman Williams
Charley Burley
Archie Moore
Jack Chase
Eddie Booker
Lloyd Marshall
Ezzard Charles




If Robinson was willing to step up and fight Jake Lamotta 5 times in the early 1940s, he could have stepped up and fought some of these men too. Did Robinson duck these men? no. did he miss out on fighting some of them? yes

Who do you have on that list beating him, or running him close?

[Asterion]

Did Robinson duck these men? no.


How do you know?

Maybe, very deep inside his mind, he was scared of them.

[Sweet Pea]

I don't consider the natural LHW's on that list to be fighters he ducked or should've fought, which is why my list was shorter. Guys like Moore and Charles were too big at their best.

[acb]

How do you know?

Maybe, very deep inside his mind, he was scared of them.

Maybe Mayweather is scared of Cotto.

[teeto]

I love this one:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Or this: just go to Roberto Duran, great shot..

[Only registered and activated users can see links]
Thanks acb, thats a great Duran shot, think i'll have it, i like the Morales one on there though, and a good Ali one aswell for any Ali fans.

[teeto]

Done! Ive only ever had 1 avatar before, feel like i disrespected it for switching it! Maybe it was time for a change though, and i did have a pic of a book as my avatar, not the best.

[acb]

Done! Ive only ever had 1 avatar before, feel like i disrespected it for switching it! Maybe it was time for a change though, and i did have a pic of a book as my avatar, not the best.

No lack of loyalty, its the same guy. Looks good as an avatar. The young Duran was something, no?

[teeto]

No lack of loyalty, its the same guy. Looks good as an avatar. The young Duran was something, no?
He was unique. Would you say Gavilan is your fave ATG then acb? If so you do have class i must say!

[acb]

He was unique. Would you say Gavilan is your fave ATG then acb? If so you do have class i must say!

For sure he is, and thanks teeto.

[Nobudius]

I think it's pretty clear that Robinson ducked him, although that's not to say he couldn't have beaten Burley. Burley twice offered him the biggest purse of his career.

....if my memory is still somewhat operational, I believe Burley & his team were offering the "biggest purse" to other viable candidates as well, & most of them did not take the bait. Why? Who knows, but it certainly seems like Burley was a fighter that others had to weigh in the risk, compared to the reward.

Did SRR duck Burley? I wouldn't argue vehemently with that-he probably did. There just isn't proof unless we hear it from SRR's mouth. I've heard the argument from the other point-hence, I said the "ducking" is debatable. We can even go one step further, & call him out on ducking Basilio.

Burley was also notoriously managed throughout his career, which crippled his efforts to rise to the top, as well as get fights.

And it's nice to look at this in hindsight & say Robinson ducked Burley-but this wasn't a fight that was in demand. When Robinson demanded more money, the negotiations were stalled. Why? B/c it couldn't generate the interest to make that kind of revenue. It's easier to call out SRR now 60+ years later, when Burley is regarded with more respect, & ask....why didn't Ray fight Charley? By fighting Burley, SRR would've had MUCH more to lose. SRR was finally able to capture the title that year after 70+ bouts(!!), at the age of 26.

There were also racial undertones as to why people "ducked" Burley & his contemporaries.

To me, it looks like SRR played the "cards exactly right", at the expense of boxing fans(moreso hypothetically, b/c the fight wasn't in demand), and most of all, to Burley.

[OLD FOGEY]

The Men Sugar Ray Robinson could have fought in early-mid 1940s but didn't


Cocoa Kid
Holman Williams
Charley Burley
Archie Moore
Jack Chase
Eddie Booker
Lloyd Marshall
Ezzard Charles




If Robinson was willing to step up and fight Jake Lamotta 5 times in the early 1940s, he could have stepped up and fought some of these men too. Did Robinson duck these men? no. did he miss out on fighting some of them? yes

Of all the men on your list, only the Cocoa Kid was ever in the same weight class as Robinson and he was ranked behind Jackie Wilson, Henry Armstrong, and Fritzie Zivic, all of whom Robinson fought. Charles, Booker, and Marshall were rated lightheavyweights in 1943. Moore and Chase were soon to move up, and Burley and Williams were middleweights. I don't see Robinson as being under any obligation to fight these bigger men. LaMotta was tough but didn't have much of a punch. It was somewhat like matching the 19 year old Patterson with Maxim. He might lose, but he was not likely to take a physical beating.

All I can say is, I'm happy you were not managing Robinson and so would ruin this great young prospect by tossing him in against much bigger men before he was even mature.

As for the original question. Robinson can be reasonably criticized for not fighting a rubber match with Turpin. Everyone wanted that one. It is also interesting that he never tried to avenge his loss to Tiger Jones.

[McGrain]

And, if so, how should it effect his legacy?


Hell yes!!!

And, I don't know, it's troubling.

[McGrain]

I don't consider the natural LHW's on that list to be fighters he ducked or should've fought, which is why my list was shorter. Guys like Moore and Charles were too big at their best.


It's fair to say where Charles is concerned. They just missed each other though...say by around 5 months in terms of Charles having enough wack to make such a match and maybe a bit less in terms of weight. Close one!

Moore and RObinson were in negotiations. Robinson priced himself out of the fight.

Marshall - it's a stretch to say this fight could ever have been made. I give Robinson a pass for this one, personally.

[McGrain]

....if my memory is still somewhat operational, I believe Burley & his team were offering the "biggest purse" to other viable candidates as well, & most of them did not take the bait. Why? Who knows, but it certainly seems like Burley was a fighter that others had to weigh in the risk, compared to the reward.

Your memory is serving you well! LaMotta passed ("what do I need Burley for when I have Zivic?"), so did Zale and Cerdan. There is a nice story that Cerdan spent five minutes watching Burley spar (Charley was really hard on sparring partners, but young fighters loved to get in with him because he was generous with his extensive knowledge) and wanted no part of him - got up, walked out of the gym and never took a call from the Burley people again. Who knows.

Burley was also notoriously managed throughout his career, which crippled his efforts to rise to the top, as well as get fights.

Well said. Althouth there was that late surge, I mean late on Burley had so much money behind him it's amazing he couldn't get the shot. Maybe the damage had been done and Burley was ignoreable, I don't know.

And it's nice to look at this in hindsight & say Robinson ducked Burley-but this wasn't a fight that was in demand.

Ah, yes it was. Mostly locally, but speculation was rife when they were both on the way up.

When Robinson demanded more money, the negotiations were stalled. Why? B/c it couldn't generate the interest to make that kind of revenue.

This is true, but when the negotoiations actually happened, the fixed price was more than RObinson had ever earned for a fight - so when Robinson doubles the demand he's asking for the moon. Sure the revenue wasn't there. Do you think it's a coincidence though that in between the fight being finally made and the price being doubled, Robinson handled the huge punching 175lb conender Billy Smith? Because I don't.

[McGrain]

Of all the men on your list, only the Cocoa Kid was ever in the same weight class as Robinson and he was ranked behind Jackie Wilson, Henry Armstrong, and Fritzie Zivic, all of whom Robinson fought.

Robinson's duck of Cocoa Kid actuallly took place on the ring apron though - Robinson should have gone back and cleared up that mess.

Burley and Williams were middleweights.

Can you and I agree that they were not fully fledged middleweights? Burley moved to 160 having been chased out of the division when the champion Zivic (1-2 against Burley, with the "1" under scrutiny) bought his contract and moved him on - Burley would have been able to make the 147 limit as late as '45, I think, certainly he thought so.

Williams - certainly wasn't a huge MW, though nor was a he small WW. He certainly would have been on for fighting Robinson in '45 when Robinson was stepping up.

It is also interesting that he never tried to avenge his loss to Tiger Jones.


That is interesting.

[Nobudius]

Ah, yes it was. Mostly locally, but speculation was rife when they were both on the way up.

This is true, but when the negotoiations actually happened, the fixed price was more than RObinson had ever earned for a fight - so when Robinson doubles the demand he's asking for the moon. Sure the revenue wasn't there. Do you think it's a coincidence though that in between the fight being finally made and the price being doubled, Robinson handled the huge punching 175lb conender Billy Smith? Because I don't.

Locally....as in Pittsburgh? lol-that would certainly make sense.

I also think you meant Burley fighting Oakland Billy Smith, rather than SRR. As for the "coincidence"...no, I've never considered it like that. Just b/c Burley was able to handle Smith, I doubt it made SRR reconsider the bout by being a d!ck to Team Burley. I highly doubt that an egomaniac such as SRR was avoiding Burley due to fear, or anything along those lines. I honestly think it was a business decision, as well as a decision to get the belt in the "safest" way possible.

SRR was a late champ-he was denied the opportunity due to World War & the politics of the day. I DON'T think it was coincidence he finally won it the year the Burley bout was in negotiations.

All circumstantial, of course.

[OLD FOGEY]

Robinson's duck of Cocoa Kid actuallly took place on the ring apron though - Robinson should have gone back and cleared up that mess.



Can you and I agree that they were not fully fledged middleweights? Burley moved to 160 having been chased out of the division when the champion Zivic (1-2 against Burley, with the "1" under scrutiny) bought his contract and moved him on - Burley would have been able to make the 147 limit as late as '45, I think, certainly he thought so.

Williams - certainly wasn't a huge MW, though nor was a he small WW. He certainly would have been on for fighting Robinson in '45 when Robinson was stepping up.




That is interesting.

I think it is bizarre to criticize Robinson for not fighting Ezzard Charles. Robinson fought at 135 and change as late as Sept, 1941. Charles was a big middleweight who was a ranked lightheavy by 1942.

Robinson against Burley or Williams could have been made, but Robinson gives up weight to fight very tough men. What if he loses? Does the loss to a middleweight derail him from ever getting a welterweight championship bout? Robinson was under no obligation to step out of his weight class unless it was in his interest to do so. As a black fighter, it was certainly possible that his career could have gone south in the same way that Burley's did if he was not handled correctly and took a loss or two.

[JohnThomas1]

I think it is bizarre to criticize Robinson for not fighting Ezzard Charles. Robinson fought at 135 and change as late as Sept, 1941. Charles was a big middleweight who was a ranked lightheavy by 1942.

Robinson against Burley or Williams could have been made, but Robinson gives up weight to fight very tough men. What if he loses? Does the loss to a middleweight derail him from ever getting a welterweight championship bout? Robinson was under no obligation to step out of his weight class unless it was in his interest to do so. As a black fighter, it was certainly possible that his career could have gone south in the same way that Burley's did if he was not handled correctly and took a loss or two.

Cheers for enlightening me on this one.

[McGrain]

I think it is bizarre to criticize Robinson for not fighting Ezzard Charles. Robinson fought at 135 and change as late as Sept, 1941. Charles was a big middleweight who was a ranked lightheavy by 1942

I agree with you.

[dpw417]

I think it is bizarre to criticize Robinson for not fighting Ezzard Charles. Robinson fought at 135 and change as late as Sept, 1941. Charles was a big middleweight who was a ranked lightheavy by 1942.

Robinson against Burley or Williams could have been made, but Robinson gives up weight to fight very tough men. What if he loses? Does the loss to a middleweight derail him from ever getting a welterweight championship bout? Robinson was under no obligation to step out of his weight class unless it was in his interest to do so. As a black fighter, it was certainly possible that his career could have gone south in the same way that Burley's did if he was not handled correctly and took a loss or two.
Pretty much sums it up. Thanks for the info, OF.