Rating the Heavyweights of Liston's era

[SuzieQ49]

Late 1950s-Early 1960s Heavyweight Division....how do you think this rates compares to other eras?


Here is how the top 10 rate

1. Cassius Clay- 7-0 against top 10 list
2. Sonny Liston- 7-2 against top 10 list
3. Floyd Patterson- 3-5 against top 10 list
4. Ingemar Johansson- 2-2 against top 10 list
5. Cleveland Williams- 1-3-1 against top 10 list
6. Ernie Terell- 3-2 against top 10 list
7. Harold Johnson- 2-0 against top 10 list
8. Zora Folley 2-3-1 against top 10 list
9. Eddie Machen- 2-5-2 against top 10 list
10. Nino Valdez- 0-5 against top 10 list

Question: What fights of the following 10 fighters have you seen in there primes?


Size

Cassius Clay- 6'3 210lb 83"

Sonny Liston- 6'1 212lb 84"

Floyd Patterson- 6'0 195lb

Ingemar Johansson- 6'0 200lb

Cleveland Williams- 6'3 215lb 82"

Ernie Terell- 6'6 212lb 84"

Harold Johnson- 5'10 175lb

Zora Folley- 6'1 200lb

Eddie Machen- 6'0 195lb

Nino Valdez- 6'3 212lb 80"




Style



Classic Boxer/Puncher: Sonny Liston

Defensive Counterpuncher: Eddie Machen and Harold Johnson

Punching Swarmer: "Peek a Boo" Floyd Patterson

Standup Slugger: Cleveland Williams and Nino Valdez

Slick Boxing Technician: Zora Folley

Unorthodox Spoiler: Ernie Terell

Stick and Move Speedster: Cassius Clay




The Jab


Late 1950s-Early 1960s had perhaps the best era in heavyweight history for Jabbers. The Jab is a vital piece of winning a fight. The Jab is used both offensivley to score points, defensivley to keep your opponent off you, and to control the tempo of the fight.

Jabbers:

Sonny Liston: has a consensous top 3 jab in heavyweight history. no explanation here intended.

Nino Valdez: Quite the Jab. It was long it was sharp and very powerful, it was used often to outbox a still dangerous ezzard charles in 1953. Charles claimed after the fight he was suprised by how good the Cuban's Jab was.

Ernie Terrell: By far his best Weapon, and one of the more underated jabs in HW history. At 6'6 with 84" reach he had a very long jab. Not only was it long, but it was extremley accurate, very elegant, and very active. He outjabbed one of the best jabbers zora folley, and used it to beat big cat williams in a rematch. Few could jab with ernie terell, and his jab was the one of the biggest reasons he became WBA champ.


Zora Folley: His Jab in his prime was like a piece of art. It was as smooth and artistic as they come. You could not show in slowmotion a better textbook jab than Zora Folley's. It snapped out there like a Crocodile latching onto a wilda beast.


Harold Johnson- One of the best Jabs in history, no better at 175lb. It was so good that even at 175lb moving up to heavyweight, he was still able to use his jab to easily outbox heavyweight much larger and taller. His Jab flowed like water running through a cannal, it was so textbook, it was etremley accurate and very composed. He knew when to threw it and where his opponent would be when he threw it, he was 2 steps ahead of every opponent.


Cassius Clay- One of the fastest jabs we have ever seen. it flung out there with the blazing speed of a electricity. It like one split second, now its there now its gone......


Big Cat Williams- His jab was pure and simple a telephone pole. Not the fastest sharpest, but when it landed it did alot of damage. It went through opponents skulls like a bull running through the red cape. it was actually thrown with perfect technique, the way I was taught currently by my trainer....When you throw the jab you tuck ur head to the right ever so gently allowing your left shoulder to come up and block ur chin and allowing your head to droop at a proper angle to protect yourself defensivley and allow an effective set up offensivley. Not many fighters use this exact technique, but joe louis and Big Cat williams were 2 of them.



Punching Skills/Power


This was the first era in heavyweight history that was filled with Skilled Big punchers.


Sonny Liston- One of the greatest punchers in Heavyweight history. The power in every punch he threw was unbelievable, like a train running into a person. His punches were like Clubs, they lifted you in the air drove you back, and bludgeoned you. With his 84" reach, his punches could catch you at long range but he could also throw them very short and precise, a rare deed for a long armed fighter. His punches were very sharp and accurate, his repoirtre consisted of one of the greatest left hooks in history, a clubbing right hand, two deadly uppercuts....His two fisted assault did severe damage to opponents, he knocked out the top rated heavyweights of his era more decisevly and cleanly than any heavyweight in history with the exception of mike
tyson.


Floyd Patterson: His mixture of handspeed/Combinations/Power is one of the best blend of tools in heavyweight history. He threw 5-6 punch combinations like we had never seen before. All his punches were razor fast and packed some heat too. He left ingo johansson out unconsious and archie moore wondering who the hell he was after one left hook.


Nino Valdez: Devastating Puncher. Scored 34 knockouts out of 48 wins, with many knockouts over rated contenders. His Right Hand was a Killer knockout shot. It left the durable Hurricane Jackson sensless after 2 rounds. His destroyed most of Europe when he was in his 30s. His right hand was thrown classic Cuban style the way Teofilo Stevenson threw it. He also had a very heavy left hook making him a two fisted assasin with big size 6'3 212lb. His Size and Power made Cus Damato turn him down on a dime.


Big Cat Williams- 6'3 215lb Built Like Hercules, he was one of the most intimidating fighters to ever step into the ring. Only he packed artillery to go along with the looks. His Left Hook was like an atomic bomb, when it exploded on something, it was goodnight. He left Jim Wiley on film into the canvas for 20 min after one short left hook crying his eyes out. Not only was his powerful, but for a man his size he had lightning hands. His left hook was so fast he could triple up on the left hook, a very hard combination for any fighter to do. His right was powerful as well, but his left was the killer shot. His amazing Handspeed and fast twitch muscles allowed his bombs to travel there quicker, making him the most feared and dangerous contender of that era.



Ingemar Johansson- Ingos bingo..... The Hammer of Thor....The Right Hand. Have you ever seen a right hand cripple opponents on film the way Ingemar Johanssons crippled opponents? It was one of the sneakiest. He would trick his opponents pre fight and during the fight into unleashing his Bingo. Opponents dropped like they been shot when hit by it. The power is unexplainable except it had god given ability.


Boxing Skill

This was an era of Very skilled Boxing Technicians


Harold Johnson- One one of most perfectly flawless textbook boxers of all time. He used perfect Technique in everything he did. He carried a high gaurd, chin tucked, his defensive blocking skills and slipping punches were fanastic. He always knew how to outbox his opponents..... he would always find the right angle, or the right opening, the right counter. One of the highest rated members in Sweet Science.


Eddie Machen- One of the most skilled Heavyweight Contenders in history. Not Many men had the all around ring skills of eddie machen. Ezzard Charles claimed in 1955 Eddie Machen would be the next heavyweight champion after watching him perform his magic. Eddie had a complete modern style despite fighting in the 1950s. Eddie carried a very high gaurd with chin tucked. His upperbody movement was amazing, and his footwork was very astute. He was a very smart boxer who always looked to outhink his opponent.


Zora Folley: Few have Seen Zora in his prime. but he was quite amazing. Like Machen, he had a very modern style. He carried his gaurd high, chin tucked, and his boxing skills were nothing short of extrordinary. He was a master counterpuncher, but also liked to go on the attack using his jab to score point before he could unleash sharp pinpoint punches to score points...his aggresive boxer style made him hard to outpoint. His slick footwork and movement in his prime enabled him to take control of his fights and confuse his opponents. He outboxed eddie Machen cleanly in there rematch.


Floyd Patterson- While some may or may not disagree with the peek a boo style, one cannot disagree it was a very effective style. All Damatos fighters torres patterson tyson one championships with it. patterson masted the style, he kept his gloves high to block punches, he bobbed and weaved with his head to make his opponent miss by inches so he could unleash his fast counters. Trouble is when ur reflexes and speed fade, so does the peek a boo style. But floyd had natural boxing instincts. Patterson showed in his 30s when his reflexes were fading just how good a boxer he was by outboxing many of the young 1960s contenders.




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Nino Valdez



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Big Cat Williams


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Zora Folley



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Eddie Machen



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Ingemar Johansson




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Harold Johnson



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Cassius Clay



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Floyd Patterson

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Sonny Liston

[SuzieQ49]

bump

[punchy]

I think maybe Williams should be at no.3

[Seamus]

I think maybe Williams should be at no.3


that says a lot for the paucity of talent during this era.

[SuzieQ49]

ESB following question for posters:


1. How does this era rate compared to the other heavyweight eras?

2. What film of each of these 10 fighters have you seen in there primes

[Longhhorn71]

ESB following question for posters:


1. How does this era rate compared to the other heavyweight eras?

2. What film of each of these 10 fighters have you seen in there primes

Great research,,,this should be an article in a boxing magazine.

Unforunately, Patterson was at the top and got in the long 3 fight series with Ingo, and Liston took care of the rest of the contenders until Clay / Ali came along. Some of the other fighters got into boring fights with each other.

I saw most of Patterson's fights, one or two of Machen & Folley, Williams "live" in Houston vs Liston, a couple of Terrell's, none of Vadez.

The home TV coverage seemed to concentrate on the mid-weight fighters ...probably because of "action" and not so much on the heavyweights.

But if you break the fighters down as a group,,,they probably are as good as the early eighty heavies...with Liston & Ali able to compete in any era.

[OLD FOGEY]

bump

I would note that if the took the top four lightheavies of the last 1940's and early 1950's, they actually have a winning record against your top heavyweights.

1. Archie Moore--2-2 (two wins over Valdes, ko losses to Patterson & Ali)

2. Harold Johnson--2-0 (wins over Valdes and Machen)

3. Joey Maxim--1-2 (win over Patterson, two losses to Machen)

4. Bob Satterfield--2-0 (win over Valdes, ko of Williams)

I think that comes out 7-4 for the old lightheavies. I know you might say Patterson & Williams were green, but Moore and Maxim were old against Ali and Machen respectively.

[Longhhorn71]

I would note that if the took the top four lightheavies of the last 1940's and early 1950's, they actually have a winning record against your top heavyweights.

1. Archie Moore--2-2 (two wins over Valdes, ko losses to Patterson & Ali)

2. Harold Johnson--2-0 (wins over Valdes and Machen)

3. Joey Maxim--1-2 (win over Patterson, two losses to Machen)

4. Bob Satterfield--2-0 (win over Valdes, ko of Williams)

I think that comes out 7-4 for the old lightheavies. I know you might say Patterson & Williams were green, but Moore and Maxim were old against Ali and Machen respectively.

Good additional info to be included in the "overall" perspective. It was a transition period, with a lot of individual fighters that had unique styles to beat each other.

[OLD FOGEY]

ESB following question for posters:


1. How does this era rate compared to the other heavyweight eras?

2. What film of each of these 10 fighters have you seen in there primes

It was a pretty good era. I thought, though, that Valdes is not a very good choice for the 10th position. Archie Moore beat him twice--why not Moore? Henry Cooper was rated more often in this era and beat Folley and floored Ali. Doug Jones ko'd Folley, who beat Valdes. One of these three should be the #10 man. Valdes' most impressive wins came in 1953 and 1954 over Charles and Jackson.

[SuzieQ49]

Well Fogey, Moore for some odd reason stop taking on ranked heavyweights 1957-1962. He started to really show his age by this time and struggled with heavyweight journeyman. The only rated HW contender he beat was when he nearly killed big # 4 rated alejandro lavorante in 62 a very impressive win.

But valdez was far more active vs rated heavyweights in the late 1950s. In 1957-1958 he beat rated heavyweight contenders harold carter, mike dejohn 2x, wayne bethea 2x, and pat mccmutry. The mccmutry knock out was a 1 round devastating knockout over the new white hope, and the come from behind harold carter knockout stopped a big winning streak by harold carter.

During this time moore was not even in the top 10 ring magazine rankigs while valdez moved all the way up to # 2, and was considered seriousely for a title shot vs patterson, but damato turned valdez down instantly. valdez was viewed by this time as more of a threat to floyd than archie was.

[SuzieQ49]

Henry Cooper was rated more often in this era and beat Folley and floored Ali. Doug Jones ko'd Folley, who beat Valdes

I own the cooper fight on tape, it was a bad hometown decision that should have gone to folley IMO. Folley knocked him down and I thought edged out the boxing match. But folley proved it was a fluke by dismantling cooper in 2 rounds in rematch.


Doug Jones I thought about seriously, I was deciding between him and valdez, but i ultimatley chose valdez because he was in serious condition to get a shot at floyd pattersons title, while jones was never in line for a title shot, not to mention I perferred valdes size power and jab over jones.

[OLD FOGEY]

I own the cooper fight on tape, it was a bad hometown decision that should have gone to folley IMO. Folley knocked him down and I thought edged out the boxing match. But folley proved it was a fluke by dismantling cooper in 2 rounds in rematch.


Doug Jones I thought about seriously, I was deciding between him and valdez, but i ultimatley chose valdez because he was in serious condition to get a shot at floyd pattersons title, while jones was never in line for a title shot, not to mention I perferred valdes size power and jab over jones.

I would say you are unfair to Jones. If he didn't get a title fight, it was because he had to fight the up and coming Cassius Clay. Do you really think Valdes handles Ali? Charley Powell, who stopped Valdes, hardly gave Ali a tough fight. Ditto Alonzo Johnson, who also beat Valdes. And Alex Miteff, another who beat Valdes. Jones gave Ali a tough enough fight that there were ringsiders who thought he deserved the decision.

[Maxmomer]

Very good analysis. I enjoyed reading it immensely. Well researched and informative. You should get a job writing for a boxing magazine.

[mr. magoo]

Going by boxrec, as I have very little material on Cleveland Williams, his resume with all due respect does not impress me much. ( Though a fair analysis should require more background than mere statistics. )

As a 27-0 prospect, Williams was floored twice and decisioned against a 7-3 journeyman who never amounted to much. Five fights later, Williams would face Bob Satterfield who wieghed in at 176 Lbs. Williams was at a bit of a disadvantage, being a last minute substitute, but then so was Satterfield who had prepared for a different opponent. Satterfield dropped Williams twice enroute to a 3rd round KO. Over the next 5 years, Williams would face a myriad of journeyman and trial hoarses before finally meeting Liston in 1959. Sonny anialated him in 3 rounds, and would repeat the feat in 1960. Williams would finish his career by continuing to do what he had done for much of his boxing tenure, which is mainly lose to quality opposition, while repairing his record in between fights against mediocrities.

Once again, I do not know that much about Cleveland Williams, and looking up stats on the internet is a very shallow way to evaluate the careers of fighters who fought 40-50 years ago. I will say however, that he seems to be getting an aweful lot of credit, given that he has very few household names in the win column. His draw with Eddie Machen and victory over Terrell, seems to be the closest he ever came to beating an honest to god world beater, and a win over Wayne Bethea doesn't impress me much seeing how everyone and his brother was beating him at the time. Williams is also credited as being a monsterous puncher who possesed great power and size for that period, but I'm a tad skeptical. He was 6'3", and well over 200Lbs, yet he was either losing to, or barely beating fighters who were smaller. He also retired with a final ratio of 58 Ko's in 78 wins. Not a bad statistic, but not exactly that of a particularly deadly hitter either, especially given who he was beating at the time.

[SuzieQ49]

As a 27-0 prospect, Williams was floored twice and decisioned against a 7-3 journeyman who never amounted to much. Five fights later, Williams would face Bob Satterfield who wieghed in at 176 Lbs. Williams was at a bit of a disadvantage, being a last minute substitute, but then so was Satterfield who had prepared for a different opponent. Satterfield dropped Williams twice enroute to a 3rd round

Williams was only a teenager during this time, not to mention he was consistently weighing in the high 190s, and had not fully matured to the brickhouse 215lber he would later become. Williams was like you said a young prospect, he was nowere near his peak when these fights took place.


Over the next 5 years, Williams would face a myriad of journeyman and trial hoarses before finally meeting Liston in 1959


Sonny Liston claimed cleveland williams gave him his toughest fights up until ali. In the first fight, williams broke listons nose and gave him a beating in the 1st round. He had liston hurt. Liston claimed williams hit as hard as he did, and that he was the most feared heavyweight out there. In exact quote "no one wants to fight cleveland williams"(Sonny Liston devil and his times).

"In a way Williams is tougher to fight than Liston because he has the speed the other doesn't have. You can't walk around Cleveland like you can Liston." -Eddie Machen



Williams would finish his career by continuing to do what he had done for much of his boxing tenure, which is mainly lose to quality opposition, while repairing his record in between fights against mediocrities.

I disagree. He drew with top ranked eddie machen in a fight where most thought williams edged. Then then knocked out Ernie Terrell, the only man to do so in his career, and lost a controversial rematch in which he floored terell for a 9 count in the 2nd. He also beat top prospect 18-1 6'4 billy daniels, a fighter who gave ali a close fight, daniels was a tall boxer with very good skills. He also knocked out rated contender alex miteff, and beat other tough young fringe contenders like sonny banks and wayne bethea. His blowout over the very durable alonzo johnson in 1 short round was a devastating knockout. Williams did quite well in his prime stepping up in competition. He arguebably got the better of both machen and terell, two top contenders, and he gave a prime sonny liston his toughest fights.

Boxrec does not show everything. Williams was so dangerous that he had lots of trouble getting rated contenders willing to fight him, no one wanted to fight him. Damato refused to give williams a shot, ingo wanted no part of williams, Folley did not want to go anywhere near williams left hook with that chin of his. Cooper would cross the street if he saw williams walking down his side of the street. you cant fight who wont fight you. williams did what he was supposed to do with the prospects and journeyman, he slaughterd them. when he was given the few chances to fight top rated opposition, he fought on even or better terms with them proving his world class level.


Ring Magazine consistently rated Williams in there top 10 ratings 5 years in a row in the 1960s.


[quote]yet he was either losing to, or barely beating fighters who were smaller.

I wouldnt question williams legitimacy against big fighters. He knocked out 6'6 200lb ernie terell, 6'4 230lb young jack johnson, 210lb alex miteff, and he beat 6'4 billy daniels, beat 210lb wayne bethea, and if you review his record he knocked out many fighters over 210lb. He also pushed sonny liston around in the first couple rounds in both fights. sure not the murders row there, but williams certainly didnt struggle with bigger fighters.


Williams is also credited as being a monsterous puncher who possesed great power and size for that period, but I'm a tad skeptical. He was 6'3", and well over 200Lbs, yet he was either losing to, or barely beating fighters who were smaller. He also retired with a final ratio of 58 Ko's in 78 wins. Not a bad statistic, but not exactly that of a particularly deadly hitter either, especially given who he was beating at the time.
__________________


Williams was a monsterous hitter, I have a few kayoes of his fights in his prime.....simply put devastating. The articles of that era rated williams as one of the biggest hitters they have ever seen. Im hoping John Garfield will chime in about williams power.





Williams was a very hard fighter to fight. Not only was he big strong chizzled powerful, he was also fast like a cat and skilled.

[SuzieQ49]

I dont understand magoo, you try to claim sanders resume is far better than given credit for and defend it, yet you critisize williams resume when its filled with far more fighters who were currently or at one point rated by Ring Magazine than sanders victims were.

[mr. magoo]

=SuzieQ49]Williams was only a teenager during this time, not to mention he was consistently weighing in the high 190s, and had not fully matured to the brickhouse 215lber he would later become.

Not to nitpick, but boxrec lists him as being over 20 years old, weighing 200Lbs, and having 27 fights as opposed to Jones's record of 7-3. He also lost this fight rather easily in all fairness. Against Satterfield, he was nearly a year older than he was against Jones, and now had a record of 31-1, plus outweighed Satterfield by some 25 Lbs. Again, he lost more than convincingly. While I agree that Williams was probably still a work in progress, his credentials and physical description, when sized to that of his early conquerors, makes it a tad difficult to play the green card.




Sonny Liston claimed cleveland williams gave him his toughest fights up until ali. In the first fight, williams broke listons nose and gave him a beating in the 1st round. He had liston hurt. Liston claimed williams hit as hard as he did, and that he was the most feared heavyweight out there. In exact quote "no one wants to fight cleveland williams"(Sonny Liston devil and his times).

"In a way Williams is tougher to fight than Liston because he has the speed the other doesn't have. You can't walk around Cleveland like you can Liston." -Eddie Machen



A nice testimony, and probably a great fight to watch. We have to consider though, that Williams was not the only fighter to trouble Liston in his career, and merely giving a great fighter a run for his money, can only hold so much weight. By this logic, Renaldo Snipes is an all time great contender.




I disagree. He drew with top ranked eddie machen in a fight where most thought williams edged. Then then knocked out Ernie Terrell, the only man to do so in his career, and lost a controversial rematch in which he floored terell for a 9 count in the 2nd. He also beat top prospect 18-1 6'4 billy daniels, a fighter who gave ali a close fight, daniels was a tall boxer with very good skills. He also knocked out rated contender alex miteff, and beat other tough young fringe contenders like sonny banks and wayne bethea. His blowout over the very durable alonzo johnson in 1 short round was a devastating knockout. Williams did quite well in his prime stepping up in competition. He arguebably got the better of both machen and terell, two top contenders, and he gave a prime sonny liston his toughest fights.


I have already commented on my feelings of his win over Wayne Bethea. Williams did no more to Bethea than many of his peers were doing at the time. It's sort of like everyone of the 1980's having the claim to beating James " Quick " Tillis. A good win yes, but by no means did it set anybody apart from one another. There are also a lot of references to potential robberies in your post here, but the fact is, those fights are listed as either draws or losses. Its not uncommon for people to have mixed feelings over the results of close fights. The Earnie Terrell win was decent, but Terrell's marketability went up a tad later. Its only in hindsite that we can say that it was a good win, and Terrell beat him in the rematch anyway. Also, you claim that Williams was the only man to ever knock out Terrell. The fight is actually listed as having a TKO outcome, and another fighter named Jeff Merritt repeated the feat a number of years later. Therefore, your claim about Williams being the only one to ever KO Earnie is incorrect on a couple of different levels.






Williams was a monsterous hitter, I have a few kayoes of his fights in his prime.....simply put devastating. The articles of that era rated williams as one of the biggest hitters they have ever seen. Im hoping John Garfield will chime in about williams power.



Fair enough. If you've seen those fights, and are impressed by them, then I won't despute that he looked good on film.



Williams was a very hard fighter to fight. Not only was he big strong chizzled powerful, he was also fast like a cat and skilled.


I believe this. Many fighters were very hard to beat, regardless of their actual value. Bert Cooper gave hell to many of top fighters. Oliver McCall did the same, and even defeated an all time great in his prime, but this hasn't stopped many posters ( possibily including yourself ), from calling him mediocre.

[mr. magoo]

I dont understand magoo, you try to claim sanders resume is far better than given credit for and defend it, yet you critisize williams resume when its filled with far more fighters who were currently or at one point rated by Ring Magazine than sanders victims were.

A fair criticism on your part,

the difference here, is that I am not listing Corrie Sanders as being one of the best of an era. I think you have Williams somewhere around #5 during Liston's ara, or perhaps maybe that's what the RING had him at. I will stand by my claim that Sanders is better than given credit for, but that's about it.

Another small difference, is that you tend to rate fighters with some sort of personal agenda. You go to great lengths to discredit Sanders, for the sole purpose of discrediting Klitschko for losing to him. This is commonly termed as circular logic, and for obvious reasons, does not usually work. As for my critiquing Sanders, I clearly have no hidden agenda to berate Liston. I'm simply looking at Williams' career as a separate entity, and have even admitted that I don't know much about him. You on the otherhand, will fire off a fighter's shortcummings as though you were in the man's corner when he fought every match....

[Bokaj]

Suzie, how do you see a prime Williams doing against the Ali he fought in '66? How do you see a prime Liston doing against that night's version of Ali?

[Mendoza]

ESB following question for posters:


1. How does this era rate compared to the other heavyweight eras?

2. What film of each of these 10 fighters have you seen in there primes

Here is how the top 10 rate

1. Cassius Clay- 7-0 against top 10 list
2. Sonny Liston- 7-2 against top 10 list
3. Floyd Patterson- 3-5 against top 10 list
4. Ingemar Johansson- 2-2 against top 10 list
5. Cleveland Williams- 1-3-1 against top 10 list
6. Ernie Terell- 3-2 against top 10 list
7. Harold Johnson- 2-0 against top 10 list
8. Zora Folley 2-3-1 against top 10 list
9. Eddie Machen- 2-5-2 against top 10 list
10. Nino Valdez- 0-5 against top 10 list

I like the order.

With Ali and Liston in there, the list has talent at the top, however, I do not think the depth is great from #5-10.

I have seen all of these guys on flim. Terell was much better in a match I saw that did not have Ali in it.

[SuzieQ49]

You on the otherhand, will fire off a fighter's shortcummings as though you were in the man's corner when he fought every match....


Well we all have our flaws, and issues to work on. thanx for bringing that to my attention magoo. I will work hard to improve on that regard.

[SuzieQ49]

I have already commented on my feelings of his win over Wayne Bethea. Williams did no more to Bethea than many of his peers were doing at the time. It's sort of like everyone of the 1980's having the claim to beating James " Quick " Tillis. A good win yes, but by no means did it set anybody apart from one another. There are also a lot of references to potential robberies in your post here, but the fact is, those fights are listed as either draws or losses. Its not uncommon for people to have mixed feelings over the results of close fights. The Earnie Terrell win was decent, but Terrell's marketability went up a tad later. Its only in hindsite that we can say that it was a good win, and Terrell beat him in the rematch anyway. Also, you claim that Williams was the only man to ever knock out Terrell. The fight is actually listed as having a TKO outcome, and another fighter named Jeff Merritt repeated the feat a number of years later. Therefore, your claim about Williams being the only one to ever KO Earnie is incorrect on a couple of different levels.


Replace the word "career" with "prime" and you have it. Merrit scored a TKO of terell when he was way over the hill, but the only one to stop terell near his prime was williams. Terell was a very hard fighter to stop with his size clinching skills and jab...



Fair enough. If you've seen those fights, and are impressed by them, then I won't despute that he looked good on film.


Sure, his 1961 knockout of Jim Wiley..... Wiley lays on the canvas for 10 minutes and when he gets up to his hands and knees he can be seen CRYING on film. All this for a williams triple left hook combination. Wiley was a tomato can, but a funny story nonetheless. I am trying to order his knockout of alonzo johnson. I hope john leaves an assesment about williams power for you magoo, he is far more reliable source than me..


I believe this. Many fighters were very hard to beat, regardless of their actual value. Bert Cooper gave hell to many of top fighters. Oliver McCall did the same, and even defeated an all time great in his prime, but this hasn't stopped many posters ( possibily including yourself ), from calling him mediocre.


I agree....but something was different about williams that separed himself from the journeyman of his era. Maybe it was his size and reputation, maybe it was his speed to go along with his power, but He was a consistent top 10 heavyweight contender of his era and only 2 men terell controversially and liston (knockouts) ever beat him in his prime. while mccall and cooper lost to journeyman in there prime, only top ranked fighters defeated liston.


I have already commented on my feelings of his win over Wayne Bethea. Williams did no more to Bethea than many of his peers were doing at the time. It's sort of like everyone of the 1980's having the claim to beating James " Quick " Tillis


I agree. His win over Billy Daniels is something too look at. Daniels is on youtube, he was a young talented boxer and 6'4 and was rated top 10 ring magazine when williams beat him. not a big win, but a good one.


Not to nitpick, but boxrec lists him as being over 20 years old, weighing 200Lbs, and having 27 fights as opposed to Jones's record of 7-3. He also lost this fight rather easily in all fairness. Against Satterfield, he was nearly a year older than he was against Jones, and now had a record of 31-1, plus outweighed Satterfield by some 25 Lbs. Again, he lost more than convincingly. While I agree that Williams was probably still a work in progress, his credentials and physical description, when sized to that of his early conquerors, makes it a tad difficult to play the green card.



While not green, he was still young at 21(I am 21 and no way have I reached my physical peak yet).....and out of those 31 victories most of those were setups for a young williams to get him experience. The satterfield fight on short notice was the first world class heavyweight he had ever faced, he was overmatched. Notice how he took a 3 year layoff from 1954 to 1957. when he came back in 1957 he was older more mature physically and mentally and he really hit his peak in the late 1950s-early 1960s. While 200lb is big, he was not the huge chizzled 215lber he later became. thats 15 extra pounds of muscle. He learned from those losses, he became a better fighter in his comeback.

[SuzieQ49]

the difference here, is that I am not listing Corrie Sanders as being one of the best of an era. I think you have Williams somewhere around #5 during Liston's ara, or perhaps maybe that's what the RING had him at. I will stand by my claim that Sanders is better than given credit for, but that's about it.


Well Williams beat/drew(controversially) with 2 top contenders of his era, gave a prime liston his toughest fights according to sonny, wiped out the journeyman/fringe contender/young prospect scene, looks like a huge powerful fast Big Cat on film, was rated very highly by contemporary fighters/historians, Avoided by Cus Damato, and was a consistent Ring Magazine top 10 rated fighter 5 years in a row. Yes I think he was top 5 heavyweight during listons era.


I think the most underated thing about williams is his boxing ability. he was a very hard fighter to outpoint.

[punchy]

Just watched Liston/Wiliams (thanks suzieQ) and Thompson/Igbramov, what Williams and Liston would have done to them, if Wlad doesn't stop Thompson in two I will run down the street naked (please don't hold me to it though).

Williams top 5 for sure a very dangerous fighter, but Sanders was an underrated dangerous fighter as well.

[SuzieQ49]

Suzie, how do you see a prime Williams doing against the Ali he fought in '66? How do you see a prime Liston doing against that night's version of Ali?

Williams would be far more dangerous opponent for ali, thats for sure. with williams left hook and speed, he had a good chance at catching and flooring ali and hurting him a couple times during the fighht, but thats as far as ill go. Ali even might find williams difficult to outbox as williams wasnt another slow slugger, but a slugger who moved like a cat. however, Ali was at the peak of his powers then and he ate up big sluggers for breakfast. Just too much all aroudnd speed, athletism, movement, smarts. Alis straight pinpoint punches would drive home through williams gaurd. I see Ali TKOing a prime williams in the 10th or 11th round with the fight close on the cards........


As for liston-Ali I typed up something on this once. let me see if i can find it.

[Russell]

Great stuff, Q.

And jesus christ Harol Johnson is ripped to shit.

[SuzieQ49]

Imagine giving harold supplements/steroids of today?

[BOGART]

Well Williams beat/drew(controversially) with 2 top contenders of his era, gave a prime liston his toughest fights according to sonny, wiped out the journeyman/fringe contender/young prospect scene, looks like a huge powerful fast Big Cat on film, was rated very highly by contemporary fighters/historians, Avoided by Cus Damato, and was a consistent Ring Magazine top 10 rated fighter 5 years in a row. Yes I think he was top 5 heavyweight during listons era.


I think the most underated thing about williams is his boxing ability. he was a very hard fighter to outpoint.


I think you have Williams too high on your list. His resume is a bit thin and I think people tend to overate him because of his power, people love a big hitter. I'd definitly rate H Johnson ahead of Williams(H Johnson's heavyweight resume seems to be really underated by a lot of people). I'd probably put Folley and Machen ahead of Williams as well. But overall your list was solid and enjoyable to read.

Also, let me see if I got this right. You say Williams loss to Jones should be largely written off due to inexperience. He was 20yrs old and had 27 or 28 fights and Jones was coming in with around 10 fights. Then on a thread I read almost right before this one you said Wlad Klitschko's loss toRoss Purrity was very damaging. Wlad was about 22 and had 24 fights and Purrity was a tough gatekeeper who had recently drew with Tommy Morrison. You also mentioned Williams would go on to weigh more in his peak but Wlad was also fighting 10-15 pounds less than his peak fights. I admit Wlad had an extensive amatuer career and Williams probably didn't, though I don't know much about Williams amatuer career. But overall, I'd say both fighters loss in similar circumstances and both losses carry a similar amount of weight. If I missed something by all means correct me if not I smell a bit of a double standard here.

[SuzieQ49]

I admit Wlad had an extensive amatuer career and Williams probably didn't, though

BINGO

[BOGART]

BINGO


The difference in amatuer credentials is partilly offset by who they lost to. Purrity was a 40 fight veteran gatekeeper while Jones was a ten fight gimme. You can make a case that Williams loss was less damaging, and I'm not so sure about that, but if Wlad's was "very damaging" as you put it than Williams loss has to be seen as atleast "damaging" to his career. These two losses carry similar weight from how I see it.

[SuzieQ49]

The difference in amatuer credentials is partilly offset by who they lost to. Purrity was a 40 fight veteran gatekeeper while Jones was a ten fight gimme. You can make a case that Williams loss was less damaging, and I'm not so sure about that, but if Wlad's was "very damaging" as you put it than Williams loss has to be seen as atleast "damaging" to his career. These two losses carry similar weight from how I see it.


No the difference is Williams avenged the Jones loss with a brutal knockout over jones in the rematch. wlad NEVER avenged the loss.

[BOGART]

No the difference is Williams avenged the Jones loss with a brutal knockout over jones in the rematch. wlad NEVER avenged the loss.

Credit due there for Williams avenging his loss but that doesn't erase it. If Wlad were to beat Puritty 10 times over the next several years that still wouldn't erase his loss to him.

[SuzieQ49]

it would improve his legacy if he avenged the loss, than if he didnt

[BOGART]

it would improve his legacy if he avenged the loss, than if he didnt


If he would have done it say 5 years ago but now I don't think it would help that much.