How much credit do you give Tunney for winning his series against Greb?

[Maxmomer]

Ok, I know that there second fight is debatable as to who won, but on paper Tunney took the series. How much credit does he get? I only ask because in the past I've seen people try to debase Tunney and his wins over Greb by stating things like "He was beaten by a middleweight" or "He split a series with a middleweight". I think such statements are pretty fucking retarded. Greb was a middleweight, but in some of his fights with Tunney he weighed in well above the middleweight limit, not to mention that he's the greatest middleweight of all time, and resume wise he's in the top 10 light heavy's of all time as well.

[McGrain]

Good post, really i'm just going to echo what you've said. Greb possibly had the best LHW resume of anyone Tunney conquered, and although one of the fights was technically at HW, Greb's HW resume is pretty good too!

I give him oodles of credit for dominating Greb in the series. One aside. The second fight was really close, I have opposing sources giving opposing accounts of who they feel was victorious, and no real problem with the decision. However, it is said that Greb was disgusted at the loss in the second fight. He altered his tactics drastically for the remaining bouts, it seems. Greb fought very dirty against Gene in II and Gene never responded in kind. Greb, who thought he domintated II, cosnidered he had lost because of the referee's dim view of his dirty tactics and was much more reserved in their remaining encounters. If Greb had continued to go to his bag of tricks for the remainder, who knows?

[dukestreet]

greb gave him the ultimate compliment after the series himself.

[teeto]

Any1 who doesnt give Tunney credit has lost it or is just plain ignorant

[klompton]

Tunney didnt win the series. Greb won the first. He was out and out robbed in the second fight. Tunney won the third. Greb won the newspaper decisions in all of the Cleveland papers except one which had it a draw. Tunney won th fifth. Thats three for Greb and two for Tunney.

[Joe Jeanette]

Tunney didnt win the series. Greb won the first. He was out and out robbed in the second fight. Tunney won the third. Greb won the newspaper decisions in all of the Cleveland papers except one which had it a draw. Tunney won th fifth. Thats three for Greb and two for Tunney.just because you say that he was robbed doesn't make it so. or do you feel that firpo was robbed vs dempsey as well....

[mcvey]

just because you say that he was robbed doesn't make it so. or do you feel that firpo was robbed vs dempsey as well....
Nat Fleisher did ,he felt Dempsey should have been dsqd for not retiring to a neutral corner and for being assisted back into the ring.

[Joe Jeanette]

Nat Fleisher did ,he felt Dempsey should have been dsqd for not retiring to a neutral corner and for being assisted back into the ring.as do I. And to think they call John Ruiz the first Latin Heavyweight Champion. :patsch

[Ezzard]

Greb is probably a top 10 ATG LHW. If you beat him once it's some achievement.

I know some people dislike Tunney on this site but it seems to be going a bit too far now.

[Joe Jeanette]

Greb is probably a top 10 ATG LHW. If you beat him once it's some achievement.

I know some people dislike Tunney on this site but it seems to be going a bit too far now.Greb is an all-time top ten ATG at LH? I don't know much about him - admittedly - but I always thought that his place in history was based on being a middleweight and beating up bigger men.

[SuzieQ49]

Alot of credit. but something many dont realize....The series was pretty much even. Both won 2 fights.......with tunney having a 15lb weight advantage. so tunney did not dominate the series.

[Ezzard]

Greb is an all-time top ten ATG at LH? I don't know much about him - admittedly - but I always thought that his place in history was based on being a middleweight and beating up bigger men.

It is but there's plenty of evidence in his resume of Greb handling great LHWs.

He has wins and draws with

Rosenbloom
Loughran
Gibbons
Tunney
Norfolk

Loughran, Tunney and Norfolk are regularly seen in 175 top 10 lists, and Gibbons is usually an HM.

[OLD FOGEY]

Tunney didnt win the series. Greb won the first. He was out and out robbed in the second fight. Tunney won the third. Greb won the newspaper decisions in all of the Cleveland papers except one which had it a draw. Tunney won th fifth. Thats three for Greb and two for Tunney.

Without seeing a film of the fight, I don't see how you can call the second Greb-Tunney fight an outright robbery. One judge voted for Greb. One for Tunney. The referee voted for Tunney, giving him a split decision. The New York Tribune surveyed the ringside writers. Four voted for Tunney. Four for Greb. Five voted for a draw. The fight was obviously razor close.

I don't see claiming Greb got the better of Tunney in their series. The best that could be said is that they came out about even, but Tunney edged Greb in the fights with official scoring.

[McGrain]

Alot of credit. but something many dont realize....The series was pretty much even. Both won 2 fights.......with tunney having a 15lb weight advantage. so tunney did not dominate the series.

Why do you keep saying this? Which fights did Greb win?

[Nemesis]

Tunney didnt win the series. Greb won the first. He was out and out robbed in the second fight. Tunney won the third. Greb won the newspaper decisions in all of the Cleveland papers except one which had it a draw. Tunney won th fifth. Thats three for Greb and two for Tunney.

Dreadful post :-(

[janitor]

Why do you keep saying this? Which fights did Greb win?

First fight
-Greb by Tunneyside.

Second fight
-Greb probably deserved the decision based on contemporary newspaper acounts.

Third fight
-Apears to be a clear win for Tunney if the newspapers are to be believed.

Fourth fight
-The newpapers are divided so it is impossible to be certain either way.

Fifth fight
-Greb took a shelacking if any of the reporters at ringside could see past the ends of their noses.

So reading between the lines the series is 2-2-? or even from our viewpoint.

[Sweet Pea]

First fight
-Greb by Tunneyside.

Second fight
-Greb probably deserved the decision based on contemporary newspaper acounts.

Third fight
-Apears to be a clear win for Tunney if the newspapers are to be believed.

Fourth fight
-The newpapers are divided so it is impossible to be certain either way.

Fifth fight
-Greb took a shelacking if any of the reporters at ringside could see past the ends of their noses.

So reading between the lines the series is 2-2-? or even from our viewpoint.This is basically how I see it. Normally I'll give Tunney the 3-2 edge in the series, but not 4-1 as it is officially scored. Very close series from what I understand, with Tunney winning the last fight as clearly as Greb won the first. Greb saying afterwards to Tunney that he wanted no more of the series, but obviously being gracious in defeat as well, as he was past his prime and Tunney seemed to have figured him out by that stage.

[Sam Dixon]

In regards to their second fight, didn't Tunney himself say something about Greb being justified in calling the decision a bad one, and then gave this as a reason why he gave Greb another fight later in the year?

I thought I read that before.

[McGrain]

First fight
-Greb by Tunneyside.

I am yet to find a source that says Tunney won a single round. But Greb's remarks on the matter: "It wasn't an easy fight; it was my hardest. I was so arm-weary and tired from trying to KO Gene, I was in almost as bad a shape as he was...I was in there with a guy with an iron jaw and iron will and I don't look forward to our next meeting."

Second fight
-Greb probably deserved the decision based on contemporary newspaper acounts.

Charles Mills had Greb the winner. Chalres Meegan had Tunney the winner. The referee had Tunney the winner.

According to the New York Tribune, writers at ringside were split four a piece for each man.

Hype Igoe of the New York World: "Greb's head, used generously but ungloriously, caused a storm of disaproval. Discounting Greb's rough-housing and eternal clinching, the clear work, straight hard hitting and honest fighting was done by Tunney." Scored for Tunney.

I can find accounts that have it for Greb, too. The point is, the judges were split, the writers were split. A close, close fight. But the referee found for Tunney. Given that ringisders were split, officals were split and both men thought they won the fight, I can understand if people are unsure of what to think - but perhaps because of Greb's loud protestations and the closenss of the fight, years later people are starting to hand this win to Greb - and I have no idea why.

I mean that literally by the way. People are trying to assign Greb two wins because this figh twas close.

So reading between the lines the series is 2-2-? or even from our viewpoint.

Not from my viewpoint chum. I got no politics or reason for spinning Tunney. Off the two I prefer Greb. But In 2 I see the papers split, the officals split and a decision given for Tunney. The End.

[McGrain]

This is basically how I see it. Normally I'll give Tunney the 3-2 edge in the series, but not 4-1 as it is officially scored. Very close series from what I understand, with Tunney winning the last fight as clearly as Greb won the first. Greb saying afterwards to Tunney that he wanted no more of the series, but obviously being gracious in defeat as well, as he was past his prime and Tunney seemed to have figured him out by that stage.


I understand that Gene's body-attack was inspired in the main by Benny Leonard who was ringside for the first fight and thought Tunney made a huge error targeting Harry's head.

Never had that double sourced but it's an interesting nugget none-the less.

[McGrain]

I can find accounts that have it for Greb, too. The point is, the judges were split, the writers were split.


Here:

Grantland Rice in the New York Tribune: "Greb did most of the fighting, most of the hitting...he deserved the decision."

[janitor]

I am yet to find a source that says Tunney won a single round. But Greb's remarks on the matter: "It wasn't an easy fight; it was my hardest. I was so arm-weary and tired from trying to KO Gene, I was in almost as bad a shape as he was...I was in there with a guy with an iron jaw and iron will and I don't look forward to our next meeting."


My heart goes out to him.

It must have been a terible burden on his constitution battering Tunney forthe duration of the fight.

[QUOTE]
Charles Mills had Greb the winner. Chalres Meegan had Tunney the winner. The referee had Tunney the winner.

According to the New York Tribune, writers at ringside were split four a piece for each man.

Hype Igoe of the New York World: "Greb's head, used generously but ungloriously, caused a storm of disaproval. Discounting Greb's rough-housing and eternal clinching, the clear work, straight hard hitting and honest fighting was done by Tunney." Scored for Tunney.

I can find accounts that have it for Greb, too. The point is, the judges were split, the writers were split. A close, close fight. But [I]the referee found for Tunney. Given that ringisders were split, officals were split and both men thought they won the fight, I can understand if people are unsure of what to think - but perhaps because of Greb's loud protestations and the closenss of the fight, years later people are starting to hand this win to Greb - and I have no idea why.

I mean that literally by the way. People are trying to assign Greb two wins because this figh twas close.

Not from my viewpoint chum. I got no politics or reason for spinning Tunney. Off the two I prefer Greb. But In 2 I see the papers split, the officals split and a decision given for Tunney. The End.


If you are going to demand unanimity or near unanimity here then the picture becomes verry murky.

All you could really say for certain would be that Greb won the first fight and Tunney won the last fight.

[McGrain]

My heart goes out to him.

It must have been a terible burden on his constitution battering Tunney forthe duration of the fight.

:lol:

[Mendoza]

Tunney didnt win the series. Greb won the first. He was out and out robbed in the second fight. Tunney won the third. Greb won the newspaper decisions in all of the Cleveland papers except one which had it a draw. Tunney won th fifth. Thats three for Greb and two for Tunney.

The only fight Greb offically won was the first fight, and a clash of heads in round one that busted Tunney's nose, and cut him up is the main reason why Greb won the first fight. The first fight could have been ruled a NC under modern rules sets.

Tunney got the better of ther series 3-1-1, and it should be noted that Greb didn't not want a 6th fight with Tunney because in Greb's own words, Tunney got to darn big.

[janitor]

The only fight Greb offically won was the first fight, and a clash of heads in round one that busted Tunney's nose, and cut him up is the main reason why Greb won the first fight. The first fight could have been ruled a NC under modern rules sets.


Some newspaper acounts suggest that the injury to Tunneys nose was caused by a punch not a headbut.

There are two sides to every story.

[Mendoza]

Some newspaper acounts suggest that the injury to Tunneys nose was caused by a punch not a headbut.

There are two sides to every story.

It was a butt. The damage was great. Never heard it was a punch.

[McGrain]

It was a butt. The damage was great. Never heard it was a punch.


I understand that there was confusion too, I have to say. Regardless, Tunney ended the fight with more than one cut.

[janitor]

It was a butt. The damage was great. Never heard it was a punch.

Some newspapers said it was a punch.

Hard to be sure what actualy happened.

[klompton]

Whoa lets clear a few myths up here. 1 there were far and away more papers that felt Greb won the second fight. Even Tunney in his autobiography said he felt there may have been something to Greb's complaints which was why he gave him the third match. Tunney got rid of Doc Bagley after the first fight and got one of the most connected New York Managers: Billy Gibson (who was owned by mobster Boo Boo Hoff) to be his manager strictly to influence the judging in his fights. Period. Even Bill Muldoon, the head of the NYSAC said that Greb deserved the victory. Who felt Greb won? Sam Taub of the Morning Telegraph gave Greb 10 of the 15 rounds. Taub also complained that Tunney fought as dirty as Greb throwing at least a dozen low blows and constantly roughing Greb along the ropes. Ed Hughes of the Evening Mail called for "Sweeping Inquiry" into the decision. He also added that Tunney fought as dirty as Greb. Bert Dodge of the Newark Star again accuses Tunney of being the offender when it comes to dirty tactics, gave Tunney only the fourteenth round and, laid blame for the horrible decision squarely at the feet of Billy Gibsons influence. The Newark Evening News said Greb gave Tunney as bad a beating in the second fight as in the first. The Jersey Journal agreed saying that the only round Tunney won was, again the fourteenth. W. C. Vreeland of the Standard Union stated that a look of complete surprise passed over Tunney's face when the decision was announced the headline is: AFTER WEIRD DECISION, TUNNEY IS LIGHT-HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMPION: Boxing Judges at Garden Decide against Greb who had Lead on Points. Ed Van Avery of the Evening World had the bout a draw adding that Tunney did not prove he was the better man and that Greb fought a fairer fight than he had ever fought. Harry Newman stated that the decision was far too close to take Greb's title. The New York Trib voted it a draw. Davis Walsh writing for International News service felt Greb won, as did Grantland Rice, Charles P. Mathison, Sid Mercer, ****** Brown, and Louis Jaffe, all reporting newspapermen. Keep in mind this is Tunney's HOMETOWN and these are hometown writers most of them. The Pittsburgh Post was outraged at the decision calling it a gift. etc etc.

How was the verdict in the fourth bout split if there are three Cleveland papers, two of which vote for Greb and one calls it a draw? That means NO ONE voted Tunney the victor of any local paper. Thats not what Ive ever heard called a split.

Greb did not refuse a sixth fight with Tunney. In early 1926 Greb and Tunney were being matched for a bout in Miami that Greb was more than willing to sign. Tunney backed out when he was called up as Dempsey's logical next opponent.

Finally Janitor is correct, some newspaper reports state that the first punch thrown in the fight was a lightning fast straight right hand that shattered Tunneys nose in a spray of blood. Not a headbutt. Two sides to every story.

So yeah, how much credit do you give a guy who beat a guy that was blind in one eye, outweighed by damn near twenty pounds, handicapped by crooked judging once, and hometown officials three times. Kind of tells you how bad Greb beat tunney in order to get the decision in New York the first fight.

[Sam Dixon]

Greb did not refuse a sixth fight with Tunney. In early 1926 Greb and Tunney were being matched for a bout in Miami that Greb was more than willing to sign. Tunney backed out when he was called up as Dempsey's logical next opponent.

This is true.

Greb made the announcement on the morning of Feb 12th, 1926 while in Arizona for his fight with Owen Phelps, including him stating that he had made a deposit in a Miami bank to cover his end of the purse for the 6th Tunney fight.

"Phoenix-Greb, the middleweight champion of the world, who arrived here this morning, announced that he had agreed to meet Gene Tunney, Amercian light heavyweight champion, at Miami, Fla., in the latter part of March." - this quick quote taken from the Helena Independant, Feb 12, 1926, but the fight was also announced in the Chicago Tribune and other sources.

It was not a week later on Feb 18th that Greb, while in Chicago for a quick stop on his way home before the Flowers fight in New York, announced that he considered the fight off because of him not hearing anything from any Florida promoters in regards to the Tunney matchup.

[Seamus]

goddamn, if there were films of any fights that were never filmed that i wish were filmed...

it would be the Greb-Tunney series.

[klompton]

Greb-Tunney 1 was filmed, it is presumed lost.

[OLD FOGEY]

Whoa lets clear a few myths up here. 1 there were far and away more papers that felt Greb won the second fight. Even Tunney in his autobiography said he felt there may have been something to Greb's complaints which was why he gave him the third match. Tunney got rid of Doc Bagley after the first fight and got one of the most connected New York Managers: Billy Gibson (who was owned by mobster Boo Boo Hoff) to be his manager strictly to influence the judging in his fights. Period. Even Bill Muldoon, the head of the NYSAC said that Greb deserved the victory. Who felt Greb won? Sam Taub of the Morning Telegraph gave Greb 10 of the 15 rounds. Taub also complained that Tunney fought as dirty as Greb throwing at least a dozen low blows and constantly roughing Greb along the ropes. Ed Hughes of the Evening Mail called for "Sweeping Inquiry" into the decision. He also added that Tunney fought as dirty as Greb. Bert Dodge of the Newark Star again accuses Tunney of being the offender when it comes to dirty tactics, gave Tunney only the fourteenth round and, laid blame for the horrible decision squarely at the feet of Billy Gibsons influence. The Newark Evening News said Greb gave Tunney as bad a beating in the second fight as in the first. The Jersey Journal agreed saying that the only round Tunney won was, again the fourteenth. W. C. Vreeland of the Standard Union stated that a look of complete surprise passed over Tunney's face when the decision was announced the headline is: AFTER WEIRD DECISION, TUNNEY IS LIGHT-HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMPION: Boxing Judges at Garden Decide against Greb who had Lead on Points. Ed Van Avery of the Evening World had the bout a draw adding that Tunney did not prove he was the better man and that Greb fought a fairer fight than he had ever fought. Harry Newman stated that the decision was far too close to take Greb's title. The New York Trib voted it a draw. Davis Walsh writing for International News service felt Greb won, as did Grantland Rice, Charles P. Mathison, Sid Mercer, ****** Brown, and Louis Jaffe, all reporting newspapermen. Keep in mind this is Tunney's HOMETOWN and these are hometown writers most of them. The Pittsburgh Post was outraged at the decision calling it a gift. etc etc.

How was the verdict in the fourth bout split if there are three Cleveland papers, two of which vote for Greb and one calls it a draw? That means NO ONE voted Tunney the victor of any local paper. Thats not what Ive ever heard called a split.

Greb did not refuse a sixth fight with Tunney. In early 1926 Greb and Tunney were being matched for a bout in Miami that Greb was more than willing to sign. Tunney backed out when he was called up as Dempsey's logical next opponent.

Finally Janitor is correct, some newspaper reports state that the first punch thrown in the fight was a lightning fast straight right hand that shattered Tunneys nose in a spray of blood. Not a headbutt. Two sides to every story.

So yeah, how much credit do you give a guy who beat a guy that was blind in one eye, outweighed by damn near twenty pounds, handicapped by crooked judging once, and hometown officials three times. Kind of tells you how bad Greb beat tunney in order to get the decision in New York the first fight.

Who thought Tunney won? Well, for one the New York Times. For two, the officials. And for three, the crowd.

I have just read the New York Times report on the fight from Feb 24, 1923, and it certainly tells somewhat of a different story than you are telling. I am not sophisticated enough with a computer to bring the New York Times article here but I am certain someone can. Here are a couple of quotes:

"The majority of ringside critics approved the decision. However, they were not undivided. Like the spectators, the critics were not unanimous. While the majority thought the decision justified, there were several who expressed disapproval."

"Tunney carried off nine of the fifteen rounds." Tunney "with his furious assault in the closing rounds carried off the 12th, 13th, 14th, and 15th. In the 14th session Tunney almost floored his rival with a terrific right to the jaw. Greb recovered quickly, however, and resumed his peculiar style of battling, plunging and tearing in wildly, his arms swinging incessantly, but without any sense of direction. Tunney met Greb in one of the latter's rushes with a terrific right to the heart that almost doubled Greb in the center of the ring. The falling champion dove in and held tenaciously until the effects of the blow passed."

The round by round and general fight report describes Tunney starting fast with a fierce body attack, which might be a surprise to those who consider Tunney a "fancy dan", and building a strong early lead. Greb rallies furiously through the middle of the fight but Tunney's body work seems to have sapped him and Tunney takes the last four rounds going away with Greb resorting to frequent clinching.

The decision when announced was greeted with a tumultuous five minutes standing ovation for Tunney. Now it appears on the face of the story that while Greb had his strong partisians, the crowd was virulently pro-Tunney.

The New York Times didn't get into the "dirty fighting" debate, but given Greb's style and reputation, his supporters complaining about Tunney's "dirty" tactics might smell a bit of hypocrisy.

I just looked up the New York Times report because it is the only one readily available to me where I live. It does seem to shoot down the "Greb obviously won" argument.

[McGrain]

Who thought Tunney won? Well, for one the New York Times. For two, the officials. And for three, the crowd.

I have just read the New York Times report on the fight from Feb 24, 1923, and it certainly tells somewhat of a different story than you are telling. I am not sophisticated enough with a computer to bring the New York Times article here but I am certain someone can. Here are a couple of quotes:

"The majority of ringside critics approved the decision. However, they were not undivided. Like the spectators, the critics were not unanimous. While the majority thought the decision justified, there were several who expressed disapproval."

"Tunney carried off nine of the fifteen rounds." Tunney "with his furious assault in the closing rounds carried off the 12th, 13th, 14th, and 15th. In the 14th session Tunney almost floored his rival with a terrific right to the jaw. Greb recovered quickly, however, and resumed his peculiar style of battling, plunging and tearing in wildly, his arms swinging incessantly, but without any sense of direction. Tunney met Greb in one of the latter's rushes with a terrific right to the heart that almost doubled Greb in the center of the ring. The falling champion dove in and held tenaciously until the effects of the blow passed."

The round by round and general fight report describes Tunney starting fast with a fierce body attack, which might be a surprise to those who consider Tunney a "fancy dan", and building a strong early lead. Greb rallies furiously through the middle of the fight but Tunney's body work seems to have sapped him and Tunney takes the last four rounds going away with Greb resorting to frequent clinching.

The decision when announced was greeted with a tumultuous five minutes standing ovation for Tunney. Now it appears on the face of the story that while Greb had his strong partisians, the crowd was virulently pro-Tunney.

The New York Times didn't get into the "dirty fighting" debate, but given Greb's style and reputation, his supporters complaining about Tunney's "dirty" tactics might smell a bit of hypocrisy.

I just looked up the New York Times report because it is the only one readily available to me where I live. It does seem to shoot down the "Greb obviously won" argument.



The New York papers seem absolutley split. The reason there are more papers for Greb is Pittsburgh. All the Pittsburgh papers were for Greb, bar none. But the Pittsburgh papers were ALWAYS for Greb, and later, Zivic. It is perhaps unreasonable to dismiss out of hand the Pittsburgh contingents opinion, but it is interesting that the NewYork papers were split 4 for Tunney 4 for Greb and 5 drawm, and Pittsburgh were so sure that Greb had triumpthed.

Meanwhile, the fact that people seem so ready to dismiss the offical verdict in favour of their favourite newspaper articles take seems a little strange to me, to say the least.

[OLD FOGEY]

The New York papers seem absolutley split. The reason there are more papers for Greb is Pittsburgh. All the Pittsburgh papers were for Greb, bar none. But the Pittsburgh papers were ALWAYS for Greb, and later, Zivic. It is perhaps unreasonable to dismiss out of hand the Pittsburgh contingents opinion, but it is interesting that the NewYork papers were split 4 for Tunney 4 for Greb and 5 drawm, and Pittsburgh were so sure that Greb had triumpthed.

Meanwhile, the fact that people seem so ready to dismiss the offical verdict in favour of their favourite newspaper articles take seems a little strange to me, to say the least.

I think it most telling that for the third fight Tunney went into the ring a 2-1 favorite. I think that tells you more about how the insiders really thought about this second fight than all the newspaper twaddle in the world.

[McGrain]

I think it most telling that for the third fight Tunney went into the ring a 2-1 favorite. I think that tells you more about how the insiders really thought about this second fight than all the newspaper twaddle in the world.


Valid. And from a 3-1 dog in I, at that.

[klompton]

Wow the Times voted for Tunney... I guess Ill dismiss the more than a dozen primary sources I cited, which include Tunney himself, in the face of that ONE article :roll:

[OLD FOGEY]

Wow the Times voted for Tunney... I guess Ill dismiss the more than a dozen primary sources I cited, which include Tunney himself, in the face of that ONE article :roll:

This fight did have an official decision. Tunney won.

Tell me, though, if Greb was the obvious winner, why did Tunney go in a 2 to 1 favorite in the next fight?

You have done a great deal of reseach, but it seems to be one-sided to prove Greb was viewed by everyone as the winner when off the Tribune poll, less than a third of the ringside reporters saw him as the winner and opinions were split. The Times quotes ringsiders as favoring Tunney.