Cooper vs Bugner.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Anyone else ever scored this? I've never understood the ballyhoo made over the decision. I had Henry a point ahead mind, but it could have easily been the other way- and was.

[timmers612]

I can only remember the reviews of the time in the different boxing mags as I didn't see the fight and they all had it close to even with either fighter winning as you did by one point. Maybe in his prime Enery would have caught Joe like Frazier did with the big left hook and it would have erased any doubts.

[joe33]

Its just the whole of the uk had a love thing for cooper,whikle bugner was never loved as much,he was pretty stand offish at times,and was seen as the outsider by many,which probaly blinded them.

[Nemesis]

Unfortunately I have never seen the footage to score, was this the root of dislike for (I am Hungarian, I am English, No I am an Austrialian) Bugner

[TBooze]

Anyone else ever scored this? I've never understood the ballyhoo made over the decision. I had Henry a point ahead mind, but it could have easily been the other way- and was.

It was very close:

It just that Cooper was that popular, he could get away with sulking about it. Apperently he never forgave Harry Gibbs...

It did not help Bugner's career either, Cooper was a very poor sport about that fight.

[dalek]

i'm sure i saw this a few years ago with carpenter doing the commentary.the fight could have gone either way but harry was saying at the end something like "how can they take a mans title away like this" and tbh these sort of comments helped fuel the fire.

[crash]

Unfortunately I have never seen the footage to score, was this the root of dislike for (I am Hungarian, I am English, No I am an Austrialian) Bugnerhahahaa thats funny,yegh ol aussie joe,now or what ever countrys hes in now,,

[My dinner with Conteh]

Didn't he live in America for a bit too? :D

[young griffo]

"Aussie" Joe has been an Australian citizen for over twenty years now and we're proud to have him.
How dare you guys question his patriotism.:twisted:

[ron u.k.]

it was a very close fight which could have gone either way.it was just because "good ole enery" was a national institution and harry carpenters totally over the top reaction made people think he was robbed.

[mcvey]

Anyone else ever scored this? I've never understood the ballyhoo made over the decision. I had Henry a point ahead mind, but it could have easily been the other way- and was.
Close call could have gone either way ,I gave it to Cooper, but Harry Carpenter's commentary was misleading,[as it so often was,he re did the Ali Foreman one ,so badly did he misread the fight,"Ali can hardly hold his hands up"etc].The Cooper Bugner fight was too close for all the furore it provoked ,imo , rather like Hagler v Leonard.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Carpenter was way off the mark a fair few times. During Ali-Frazier II he apparently said: "Good action, this is so much better than their first fight". :huh

[joe33]

Carpenter was way off the mark a fair few times. During Ali-Frazier II he apparently said: "Good action, this is so much better than their first fight". :huh

He also had bruno winning against tyson to if i remember,one good shot does not win you a fight,unless it puts the guy over:good

[Boro chris]

Saw this fight over twenty years ago and from what I remember I had Cooper winning by a mile. Long time ago though.

[Holmes' Jab]

Bugner was a clown, he was fortunate that 'Enery was over the hill by that stage (and yet he still arguably won the contest). Cooper should forever be regarded as the superior of these two fighters. :good

[TBooze]

Bugner was a clown, he was fortunate that 'Enery was over the hill by that stage (and yet he still arguably won the contest). Cooper should forever be regarded as the superior of these two fighters. :good

No Bugner may of wasted a lot of his talent, but he still had a better career than Sir 'enry...

[Holmes' Jab]

Perhaps so, however all too often Bugner turned up in the ring- his sole purpose to seemingly to pick up the moola, and being able to count it. Surely if you choose to be a fighter pasrt of the game is to take risks in there:roll: . He was basically just a proud to be there sort of fighter, who may have had some sort of 'talent' but seemed to go the edge of the world in an effort not to demonstrate it.

His finest performances were merely 'hanging on in there' ones against Ali and Frazier. The guy had the offensive desire of a tortoise.

[ron u.k.]

i agree with my good pal "holmes jab" on this subject!

[My dinner with Conteh]

KO mag had an annual award: The Joe Bugner 'just glad to be here' trophy. :D

[Holmes' Jab]

i agree with my good pal "holmes jab" on this subject!

:lol:

Another thing we'd agree on is that Boro are a laughing stock. Kiddie snatching, toxic mutants, who barely have any history as a football club worth speaking about. :good

(One Worthy Cup doesn't count...) :tong

[TBooze]

KO mag had an annual award: The Joe Bugner 'just glad to be here' trophy. :D

The Ring nicked it...;)

[joe33]

I did read though,that after the ali fight,bugner went back to his hotel,and the next day was out there swimming and living it up,while ali was shattered and resting.What a waste of a god giving gift bugner seemed to throw away,if he had maybe bothered to really go for it,who knows how he may have turned out,i hate that when guys like him seem to not want to really give it 100%

[TBooze]

I did read though,that after the ali fight,bugner went back to his hotel,and the next day was out there swimming and living it up,while ali was shattered and resting.What a waste of a god giving gift bugner seemed to throw away,if he had maybe bothered to really go for it,who knows how he may have turned out,i hate that when guys like him seem to not want to really give it 100%

I think the story alleges to fight two, and you forgot Bugner taking a swig of Champagne after doing each length of the pool.;)

[joe33]

I think the story alleges to fight two, and you forgot Bugner taking a swig of Champagne after doing each length of the pool.;)


Haha really,damn what a silly man,still he did have some fun im sure along the way,outside of the ring.

[ron u.k.]

:lol:

Another thing we'd agree on is that Boro are a laughing stock. Kiddie snatching, toxic mutants, who barely have any history as a football club worth speaking about. :good

(One Worthy Cup doesn't count...) :tongbasically just a small club in yorkshire:yep

[jowcol]

No Bugner may of wasted a lot of his talent, but he still had a better career than Sir 'enry...

I'd question that; check Henry's career; multi-Euro and Brit belts over a three decade period. I'm not sure he EVER fought anyone with a losing record and that points win over a prime Zora Folley tops any win "heartless Joe" every recorded. The only name fighters Bugner ever beat were already over the hill. And I refuse to offer too much credit to a fighter who's best efforts were in losses, in Joe's case Frazier & Ali 1. Let's not forget Henry's bomb on Ali in a loss if we're going in that direction. If the Galindez-Ahumada fight hadn't been on the undercard of Ali-Bugner 2 at the closed circuit theater, it may have been the biggest waste of a boxing ticket I ever purchased. As far as Bugner goes: "never has so little been done with so much". He also bad mouthed Cooper a few years back for some unknown reason. What a overrated disappointment IMHO...

[mcvey]

I think the story alleges to fight two, and you forgot Bugner taking a swig of Champagne after doing each length of the pool.;)
The fight was held in Kuala Lumpur ,at 9 30 am ,for US TV,an hour after the fight Bugner went swimming in the hotel pool,and as has been said drank champagne as though he had won.Mickey Duff who was involved with the fight was less than pleased at Bugners reaction to defeat,an account of it can be found in Duff,s excellent auto biography,TWENTY& OUT.

[TBooze]

I'd question that; check Henry's career; multi-Euro and Brit belts over a three decade period. I'm not sure he EVER fought anyone with a losing record and that points win over a prime Zora Folley tops any win "heartless Joe" every recorded. The only name fighters Bugner ever beat were already over the hill. And I refuse to offer too much credit to a fighter who's best efforts were in losses, in Joe's case Frazier & Ali 1. Let's not forget Henry's bomb on Ali in a loss if we're going in that direction. If the Galindez-Ahumada fight hadn't been on the undercard of Ali-Bugner 2 at the closed circuit theater, it may have been the biggest waste of a boxing ticket I ever purchased. As far as Bugner goes: "never has so little been done with so much". He also bad mouthed Cooper a few years back for some unknown reason. What a overrated disappointment IMHO...

Foley was an excellent win but as a rule Cooper's problem was when he fought anyone (outside of Europe) resembling class, he got stopped or knocked out (Foley in their rematch LKO2; Ali/Clay LTKO5, LTKO6; Patterson LKO4). And like Bugner he suffered the odd really embarrassing defeat (Johnson LPTS10; Rischer LPTS10).

Bugner at least knew how to stay on his feet and after his pro debut it took Shavers in 82 to stop him once more. He showed against a near prime Frazier that he could when bothered compete with the very best, Cooper was an excellent trier, but never quite cut it at the top. Bugner could of, had he really wanted to.

I guess Cooper's work ethic and left hook with Bugner's abilities may of produced a fight to really compete with even the very best of the 60s and 70s...

[My dinner with Conteh]

It's a bit easier to stay in your feet if you have no real intent on trying to win.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Talking of Bugner, always reminds me of the old Reggie Perrin scene when he works down the 'piggery' and he comes back from sickness with two black eyes.



MP: When you took yesterday off, you said your auntie was ill.

RP: Oh, that auntie, yeah.

MP: Yeah, that auntie. She appears to have given you two black eyes.

RP: Yeah, it’s a bit sad about ‘er, really. She’s going a bit ‘doolally’. She’s convinced she’s Joe Bugner.

MP: When did Joe Bugner ever give anyone two black eyes?


:D

[Holmes' Jab]

Haha, good'un. :eek:

[TBooze]

It's a bit easier to stay in your feet if you have no real intent on trying to win.

Of course, but against Frazier we actually saw what Bugner could of been...

[jowcol]

It's a bit easier to stay in your feet if you have no real intent on trying to win.

And while not trying to be too cynical, I think that says it all about
Bugner's "lack of a left titty" deficiency!!

I'm a yank, I've never been to England but I could guarantee that ANY Cooper fight seen live over there was packed with excitement whomever came out on top unlike the usual Bugner "snoozefest"...

[crippet]

Bugner killed someone in the ring early in his career.

I think that can explain his mindset later in his career

[Stevie G]

Anyone else ever scored this? I've never understood the ballyhoo made over the decision. I had Henry a point ahead mind, but it could have easily been the other way- and was.
Extremely tight fight,points wise. I still can't get over Harry Carpenter's shock and outrage. As if the decision was the robbery of the century. I've watched it a few times in the last year or so,and I score it for Bugner,but only just.

[Stevie G]

Talking of Bugner, always reminds me of the old Reggie Perrin scene when he works down the 'piggery' and he comes back from sickness with two black eyes.



MP: When you took yesterday off, you said your auntie was ill.

RP: Oh, that auntie, yeah.

MP: Yeah, that auntie. She appears to have given you two black eyes.

RP: Yeah, it’s a bit sad about ‘er, really. She’s going a bit ‘doolally’. She’s convinced she’s Joe Bugner.

MP: When did Joe Bugner ever give anyone two black eyes?


:D
I can still remember the joke from the 1980's "What have Joe Bugner and Michael Jackson got in common ? They both wear gloves for no apparent reason"

[turpinr]

i could probably still find the note-pad that my dad used to score this fight.he scored it a bugner win

[johnmaff36]

Foley was an excellent win but as a rule Cooper's problem was when he fought anyone (outside of Europe) resembling class, he got stopped or knocked out (Foley in their rematch LKO2; Ali/Clay LTKO5, LTKO6; Patterson LKO4). And like Bugner he suffered the odd really embarrassing defeat (Johnson LPTS10; Rischer LPTS10).

Bugner at least knew how to stay on his feet and after his pro debut it took Shavers in 82 to stop him once more. He showed against a near prime Frazier that he could when bothered compete with the very best, Cooper was an excellent trier, but never quite cut it at the top. Bugner could of, had he really wanted to.

I guess Cooper's work ethic and left hook with Bugner's abilities may of produced a fight to really compete with even the very best of the 60s and 70s...
Also his KO loss to johansson when he claimed that Ingo's people made sure Cooper was put in the corner facing the sun. Ive met him a few times in Hendon where he lived/lives and he came across as a nice fella, but he didnt do himself any favours with his bitterness towards the likes of harry gibbs, who, i think, gave the fight to bugner by 1/2 a pt.

[Mr Butt]

saw this years ago i am pretty sure i had cooper winning but only by a couple of points

[kenmore]

Anyone else ever scored this? I've never understood the ballyhoo made over the decision. I had Henry a point ahead mind, but it could have easily been the other way- and was.

I watched the fight twice. The first time I had Bugner slightly ahead, the second time I had Cooper winning marginally. Yes, the bout was so close it could have gone either way.

The single most noteworthy element in the fight, I think, was Bugner's persistent left jab. The jabs didn't do any damage to Cooper, but the punches did connect. I'm inclined to think Bugner deserved the decision on this factor alone. If punchstats had been kept in 1971, Bugner probably would have had a higher number of total punches connected.

Many give the bout to Cooper, I guess, because of his ring generalship. Cooper's cocked left hand always posed a threat to Bugner, causing Bugner to backpedal or circle away to avoid being hit. Thus, the argument could be made that Cooper forced the action, and should have been considered the winner even though he didn't connect much against Bugner.

Incidentally, the London Times had Bugner winning the fight, too.

[kenmore]

I'd question that; check Henry's career; multi-Euro and Brit belts over a three decade period. I'm not sure he EVER fought anyone with a losing record and that points win over a prime Zora Folley tops any win "heartless Joe" every recorded. The only name fighters Bugner ever beat were already over the hill. And I refuse to offer too much credit to a fighter who's best efforts were in losses, in Joe's case Frazier & Ali 1. Let's not forget Henry's bomb on Ali in a loss if we're going in that direction. If the Galindez-Ahumada fight hadn't been on the undercard of Ali-Bugner 2 at the closed circuit theater, it may have been the biggest waste of a boxing ticket I ever purchased. As far as Bugner goes: "never has so little been done with so much". He also bad mouthed Cooper a few years back for some unknown reason. What a overrated disappointment IMHO...


Cooper's win over Zora Foley was regarded as a robbery by many. As for Bugner, it's true that his biggest wins were against fading fighters. However, I question whether Cooper could have beaten the versions of Jimmy Ellis, Mac Foster, and Greg Page that Bugner conquered.

Also, there should be no doubt that Cooper could never have held his own against the likes of Ali, Frazier, and Lyle, as Bugner did. Ron Lyle and Joe Frazier especially would have destroyed Cooper.

I think Bugner's superiority over Cooper -- in terms of ability demonstrated throughout their respective careers -- is really a no-brainer. Bugner was better by a wide margin.

[cuchulain]

Anyone else ever scored this? I've never understood the ballyhoo made over the decision. I had Henry a point ahead mind, but it could have easily been the other way- and was.

Watched it the night it happened and scored it for 'enry.

It was close, and I haven't seen it since.

(I have it ordered, and plan to watch it again, soon.


See link below.


[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[johnmaff36]

Cooper's win over Zora Foley was regarded as a robbery by many. As for Bugner, it's true that his biggest wins were against fading fighters. However, I question whether Cooper could have beaten the versions of Jimmy Ellis, Mac Foster, and Greg Page that Bugner conquered.

Also, there should be no doubt that Cooper could never have held his own against the likes of Ali, Frazier, and Lyle, as Bugner did. Ron Lyle and Joe Frazier especially would have destroyed Cooper.

I think Bugner's superiority over Cooper -- in terms of ability demonstrated throughout their respective careers -- is really a no-brainer. Bugner was better by a wide margin.
Jim Wicks openly admitted he wanted no part of Frazier

[Chaney]

Also his KO loss to johansson when he claimed that Ingo's people made sure Cooper was put in the corner facing the sun.After the fight Cooper mentioned to someone that he was struggling with the sun in his eyes. They replied "You mean Mrs Johansson's son?"

[choklab]

It's a bit easier to stay in your feet if you have no real intent on trying to win.


:good

[turpinr]

Jim Wicks openly admitted he wanted no part of Frazieror liston

[Stevie G]

Cooper tarnished his image,big time,in holding a virtual vendetta against Harry Gibbs after the Bugner fight.

[choklab]

Oh my god! Having all these years only veiwed highlights of the fight I have accepted that it was a close fight that could have gone either way. the edited versions of the fight showed cooper doing the best work but without the entire rounds and with even cooper himself saying there was only a round in it this led me to believe it was one of those fights where a similar number of rounds were won by both with one guy being more decisive with his share. if its a close fight what is there to bitch about?

I just found this on youtube. I am embaraced to admit I have just scored the fight 9-6 for cooper! This is very wide, maybe I could close it up a bit but its a win for "H" in my book. Although coper looked old and ripe for a beating bunger just stood off cooper far too much and waited. Cooper wasn’t getting his shots off as clean as a younger fighter would but his effort and variety was much greater over all. Bunger used one hand and one punch all night. Just a jab or a double jab compared to cooper who was busting his gut to dictate, rough up and out box bunger with firmer jabs, hooks and right crosses. Henry simply wanted it much more. Bunger had success with everything he tried but he tried with one punch- the jab and not nearly often enough, it’s just not good enough. he did not capitalise enough. Cooper simply landed more too.



[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[kenmore]

I just found this on youtube. I am embaraced to admit I have just scored the fight 9-6 for cooper! This is very wide, maybe I could close it up a bit but its a win for "H" in my book. Although coper looked old and ripe for a beating bunger just stood off cooper far too much and waited. Cooper wasn’t getting his shots off as clean as a younger fighter would but his effort and variety was much greater over all. Bunger used one hand and one punch all night. Just a jab or a double jab compared to cooper who was busting his gut to dictate, rough up and out box bunger with firmer jabs, hooks and right crosses. Henry simply wanted it much more. Bunger had success with everything he tried but he tried with one punch- the jab and not nearly often enough, it’s just not good enough. he did not capitalise enough. Cooper simply landed more too.


I disagree. It looked to me as if Bugner slipped and pulled away from many of Cooper's punches. Cooper certainly pressed the action, and attempted a wider variety of flashy punches than Bugner, but in the end, the only punches connecting were left jabs. Bugner appears to have jabbed better and more consistently than Cooper.

Remember, the quality of the film on youtube is poor. It's blurry. It's hard to tell which punches are really connecting, and which are missing the target by a quarter inch.

[RockysSplitNose]

Have this fight on Disc somewhere - I scored it to Henry Cooper I recall - but not by much maybe a round or two - but a win is a win - especially when you're a geriatric and the guy you win against is big young lad coming into his own.

I actually really liked Bugner - I liked his personaility, he told it how it was, he was a realist and not a respecter of reputations and he was a workhorse - he went in and mixed it with some very tough guys - apart from Henry Cooper - twice with Ali, once with Frazier, once with Shavers - I'll never forget the build up to Bugner versus Bruno when by that time Bugner was the old man - and he didn't do too bad really (the stoppage in that one was ridiculous Bruno literally just shoved him down to the floor and the ref waved it off - it was hilarious - but Bugner succeeded in being the only man who ever brought out some serious grudge in Bruno - Cooper in his best days though would've beaten Bugner & Bruno in the same ring IMO

[choklab]

I disagree. It looked to me as if Bugner slipped and pulled away from many of Cooper's punches. Cooper certainly pressed the action, and attempted a wider variety of flashy punches than Bugner, but in the end, the only punches connecting were left jabs. Bugner appears to have jabbed better and more consistently than Cooper.

Remember, the quality of the film on youtube is poor. It's blurry. It's hard to tell which punches are really connecting, and which are missing the target by a quarter inch.


cooper was missing that second of timing with everything but his own jab and for all his work not really making that much of an impresion on bugner. If henry landed with just a third of what he put on bugner it would still be even. Bugner had the potential to realy storm cooper had he introduced more ambition, there were times where he beat cooper to the punch then stand off. the rounds were quiet rather than close. cooper also outjabbed bugner at times.

I liked bugner. his fights with wepner, roberto davila and eduardo corletti proved he was already an excelent boxer when he fought cooper. joe handled wepner much beter than ali later did and easier and earlier than liston and equal to foreman. davila went the full distance with george foreman in his previous fight yet bugner stopped him.

[turpinr]

Cooper tarnished his image,big time,in holding a virtual vendetta against Harry Gibbs after the Bugner fight.:goodit got even worse when he started telling people to vote tory.

[kenmore]

cooper was missing that second of timing with everything but his own jab and for all his work not really making that much of an impresion on bugner. If henry landed with just a third of what he put on bugner it would still be even. Bugner had the potential to realy storm cooper had he introduced more ambition, there were times where he beat cooper to the punch then stand off.


For the most part, I agree with you. However I don't believe that Bugner would have succeeded had he unleashed a full offensive, as you suggest. Had Bugner been more aggressive, he would have been caught by Cooper's left hook, and possibly been kayoed. I think Bugner's jab-and-run routine was the best he could accomplish.

Bugner won this fight by using his legs, his jab, and his defensive instincts. Anything less than this combination of qualities would have made him hittable -- and beatable -- by the hard-punching Cooper.

A final point: Bugner was still a neophyte at the time of the Cooper bout. He was just 21 years old, had barely an amateur career, and hadn't fought any world class fighters yet. Bugner's inexperience was exposed woefully later in 1971, when he was completely outfought by Jack Bodell. The Bugner of 1973-1977 would have knocked out Bodell in three rounds.