Why was norton so difficult for Ali? [Archive]

DocDevil

07-21-2007, 03:01 PM

Senya13

07-21-2007, 03:05 PM

Because Ali couldn't use angles and upper body movement in attack (standing upright), and didn't keep his right hand up when throwing a jab.

Bummy Davis

07-21-2007, 03:25 PM

Ali had trouble with Norton,cause he lacked the one thing that would made him the complete perfect fighter.Devasting power.Ali didn't have tremendous power of punch.Had Ali had that booming punch of Louis,Tyson, Liston etc,Norton woulda went,the way he went against,Cooney,Shavers and Foreman.Ali had a stinging right,but not enough to ko Norton.

Norton gave Ali pressure and Ali did not have the punch to keep Norton off, Ali had speed but he made Norton ( a good fighter with flaws look better)

buzzsaw

07-21-2007, 10:33 PM

In the first fight I would say Ali didn’t expect Norton to be so tough. In the second fight Ali was better prepared but Norton had the edge psychologically because of what he was able to do to Ali earlier. Norton’s jab was heavy and he used it to keep Ali moving. Ali never could “sit down” on anything to hurt or even keep Norton off of him. And when Norton would close the distance behind his jab he would step forward dragging his back foot and then step off with an overhand right. Norton was very good at catching Ali’s punches with his crossed arm defense and was in great condition to keep firing right back. I thought Norton won the first and third of their fights.

salsanchezfan

07-21-2007, 10:49 PM

buzzsaw

07-21-2007, 11:06 PM

Recently after the ESPN fights they replayed the first Ali-Norton fight. I have the rematch. I need to get the third, but going by memory (what's left) I thought Norton won. Ali was stealing rds "shoeshining" etc.

Street Lethal

07-22-2007, 12:00 AM

I seem to remember a panel of experts that concluded right after the fight that Ali won the third fight because he won the last round. The second fight was much the same way.

Norton was awkward and Ali didn't have the power to put Norton on the defensive. When Ali was on his toes dancing he confused Norton. If they had met in the 1960s I think Ali wins with much less trouble.

JohnThomas1

07-22-2007, 07:13 AM

I had an argument here years ago with someone who kept insisting that it was Norton's jab that was the issue for Ali. I argued that this was incorrect, as it was an incomplete answer. Liston had a great jab. Terrell a good one. Neither bothered Ali.

Buzzsaw has it about right, according to my own thinking. He alludes to the jab being used in concert with Norton's awkward aggression, and never allowing Ali a chance to do anything but throw relatively harmless punches while backing up.

I reckon the biggest key is actually Eddie Futch. The man is pure genious, and Norton had the tools to carry out his plan quite reasonably against an aging Ali. When Ali jabbed he didn't hold his right hand close to his face for parrying, and this was Eddie's main plan of attack. When Ali jabbed people tried to slip it and counter or block it and counter. Ali was too fast. Futch had Kenny jab while Ali was in the act of throwing himself, with good success. This upset Ali's rhythm and was the tactical foundation behind his troubles vs Norton.

unitas

07-22-2007, 08:10 AM

norton had good upper body movement.......and that didnt allow ali to get his jab working the way he wanted to.
if a fighter depends heavily on the left jab for his other punches to get off, then this can be a problem. he will be missing more than he usually does.

then you have to consider that norton was awkward as hell. his left hook came from down home........and ali was always a sucker for that left hook.

now add the fact that norton was conditioned as a marathon runner and had quite a few boxing skills himself (like good timing on his left jab).........and you have a pretty good fighter in front of you.

and last but not leastk, the only way to beat norton easy was to blow him out like a shavers or foreman did. but ali lacked that power.

groove

07-22-2007, 08:41 AM

Futch had Kenny jab while Ali was in the act of throwing himself, with good success. This upset Ali's rhythm and was the tactical foundation behind his troubles vs Norton.

:good He never allowed Ali to get set. Also, Norton leaned back so his head was further away making it was harder for Ali to hit him and find his range. Ali had to come closer and therefore came in to Norton's punching range.

mcvey

07-22-2007, 01:23 PM

Well
The way to beat Norton was to back him up ,he dragged his trailing right foot ,Norton couldnt fight backing up to save his life ,and Ali lacked the power to push him back,plus Nortons half-crouching ,leaning over to his right ,right glove open to catch the lead punch ,negated Ali,s jab.

Sonny's jab

07-22-2007, 01:34 PM

Norton's stance and hand positioning was great defensively against Ali's prefered offense.
Norton was leaning away from the trajectory of Ali's right, and was in a position to parry Ali's jab.

Norton was a strong motherfucker, one of the strongest ever, and fought well coming forward. He could be KO'd by big hitters, but Ali didn't have the punch and was comfortable going backwards.

It's only Ali's ridiculous speed of hand (and foot) that got him any success with Norton at all. With such blazing speed you can pick up some points even against fighters who have the style to negate your own.

ThinBlack

10-13-2011, 04:59 PM

Norton knew how to deal with Ali jab.3 years before their initial fight, they had sparred, and Futch told Norton how to deal with Ali, with much sucess.

manbearpig

10-13-2011, 06:00 PM

because he was past his prime

janitor

10-13-2011, 06:06 PM

He had Eddie Futch in his corner.

frankenfrank

10-13-2011, 06:21 PM

Because Ali was never as good as people consider him .
But better tactical explanations were given above , and I don't mean d post prime 1 because we all saw that a 1975 Ali was favored 2 stop d Doug Jones that beat him in 1963

manbearpig

10-13-2011, 06:22 PM

piranhas are shit and overrated

frankenfrank

10-13-2011, 06:36 PM

Piranhas >> Ali . At least p4p they r

manbearpig

10-13-2011, 07:04 PM

I disagree. Pirahnas are beneath Siamese Fighting fish p4p, Ali has proven his underwater capabilities time and time again. The footage is on youtube and needs not be discussed.

frankenfrank

10-13-2011, 07:20 PM

maybe janitor can recommend a book where Ali's underwater fighting abilities r discussed .
Probably it went unmentioned because it happened during his exile ?

ocelot

10-13-2011, 08:02 PM

1. Norton is underrated; Norton was awkward
2. 1973: Ali was past his prime

SLAKKA

10-13-2011, 08:12 PM

Because Ken was PRIME in the first Ali fight and Ali was past it.

gentleman jim

10-13-2011, 10:36 PM

Alot of valid points brought up as to why Norton was tough for Ali. Ken was a well conditioned strong athlete who was in his prime when he fought Ali plus his style was tough for boxers like Ali and later, Holmes. If you didn't have the power to get Ken outta there ala Foreman and Shavers then you were in for a long night. Futch schooled Norton well as to how to deal with Ali and Kenny followed his instructions. Norton didn't have stamina issues like Foreman did so he wasn't going to run out of gas either. Norton's style was good against boxers but problematic against big punchers as Kenny couldn't fight backing up. Ali couldn't back Norton up so he had to fight him all night long.

SLAKKA

10-13-2011, 10:46 PM

Prime for Prime Ali makes Ken look like Liston
Ken you can charge forward as much as you like but you just gonna catch alotta hell from a heavyweight will o wisp who'll be gone by the time you get there.

Vince Voltage

10-14-2011, 01:16 AM

Norton was physically stronger than Ali, and he did a lot of things not great, but well enough. He was fast enough to keep up with Ali, hit hard enough to make Ali wary, and his weird defense was something Ali wasn't really used to. And Ali's lack of a serious punch helped Kenny a lot.

Imperial1

10-14-2011, 01:41 AM

I reckon the biggest key is actually Eddie Futch. The man is pure genious, and Norton had the tools to carry out his plan quite reasonably against an aging Ali. When Ali jabbed he didn't hold his right hand close to his face for parrying, and this was Eddie's main plan of attack. When Ali jabbed people tried to slip it and counter or block it and counter. Ali was too fast. Futch had Kenny jab while Ali was in the act of throwing himself, with good success. This upset Ali's rhythm and was the tactical foundation behind his troubles vs Norton.

This !

SLAKKA

10-14-2011, 01:44 AM

Ali paid a price for his early Louisville boxing lessons.

Stevie G

10-14-2011, 07:11 AM

Because Ken was PRIME in the first Ali fight and Ali was past it.
Ah....but Ali was only SLIGHTLY past it. Look at what legacy bouts still lay ahead of him.

As has been said,Norton was a pressurising fighter with a good jab. Plus at the time ogf going into the ring,Ken was probably the division's best kept secret.

bez

10-14-2011, 08:15 AM

can i ask if norton woulda beat frazier without startin another thread?

PowerPuncher

10-14-2011, 08:30 AM

Jab, timing and pressure all kill speed

Bokaj

10-14-2011, 08:59 AM

can i ask if norton woulda beat frazier without startin another thread?

I can't really see it. Norton just wasn't the same backing up and Frazier certainly would take the fight to him.

To be fair, Frazier didn't have the concusive power of Foreman, Shavers etc, but he would make it a war in the trenches and there he'd have the edge. I think FOTC Frazier vs Norton of Ali III would be a great fight, though, with Joe probably stopping Norton in the late rds.

Stevie G

10-14-2011, 11:55 AM

I can't really see it. Norton just wasn't the same backing up and Frazier certainly would take the fight to him.

To be fair, Frazier didn't have the concusive power of Foreman, Shavers etc, but he would make it a war in the trenches and there he'd have the edge. I think FOTC Frazier vs Norton of Ali III would be a great fight, though, with Joe probably stopping Norton in the late rds.
Good hypothetical fight ! I see Frazier winning for the reasons that you say.

In real life,they could have met in the 1973-76 timeframe. Up to,and including 1975,Joe would always beat Ken. In 1976,though,I'd actually favour Norton. Frazier had virtually nothing left after Manila.

lufcrazy

10-14-2011, 01:32 PM

Call me crazy but the two toughest styles for ali were frazier and norton.

They could well be the greatest body punchers of that era. Is it feasible that pressure body punchers were his kryptonite?

Unforgiven

10-14-2011, 02:01 PM

I disagree. Pirahnas are beneath Siamese Fighting fish p4p, Ali has proven his underwater capabilities time and time again. The footage is on youtube and needs not be discussed.

Jack Dempsey is the only champion fighter with a badass fish named after him.

And if you put a Dempsey in a tank with a few Piranha, he'll boss them. :good

And, yes, that's on youtube too.