Who is the Greatest European fighter of All-Time?

[Hatesrats]

Discuss? (Non British)
Who do you consider the best Ever? Why?

[avk47]

Amateur or pro? My favourite amateurs ever were Valeri Popenchenko and Nikolai Korolev. Both would have made great pros.

[Hatesrats]

Amateur or pro? My favourite amateurs ever were Valeri Popenchenko and Nikolai Korolev. Both would have made great pros.
Either bro...
I'm trying to brush up on some 411.
(Outside of My Mexican & U.S., P.R. fighter's a little more)

[st_121]

László Papp

- Three Olympic gold metals and an outstanding 301-12-6 amateur record
- Undefeated (27-0-2) European champion as professional

[REatb6869]

Great question! Not sure I know, but my hunch is someone from a Communist country who was not allowed to turn pro.

As for recently, I don't see how you can't go with Joe Calzaghe.

[avk47]

László Papp

- Three Olympic gold metals and an outstanding 301-12-6 amateur record
- Undefeated (27-0-2) European champion as professional


A worthy contender indeed. And if he could have gone pro earlier I think he could have gone even further than that! :good

Have any of you seen bouts from the Soviet heavyweight champion Nikolai Korolev in the 1950s? There is a documentary on him on youtube which includes some footage. I believe that had he been allowed to turn pro he would have achieved great things.

Korolev was an incredibly tough man - in boxing and in life, and had gone through the entire WWII from day one till the final day operating in special groups behind enemy lines. He was very big and physically strong by the standards of that time, was deceptivly good defensivly. He came forward throughout the entire fight, and was known to have a top class chin and devastating KO power in both hands, winning most of his 300 or so amateur bouts early stoppage. The guy was a real fighter, and continued at top level well into his forties.

[TommyV]

Georges Carpentier deserves a shout. Maybe not the greatest European fighter of all-time but he holds win over Kid Ted Lewis, although this was at light-heavy where he was outweighed by around 20lbs or so, Battling Levinsky and Gunboat Smith, both who were around their primes.

The majority of his losses came to world-class opponents such as Billy Papke, Joe Jeannette, Jack Dempsey, Tommy Loughran, Gene Tunney and Tommy Gibbons.

[avk47]

Marcel Cerdan.

[Armo_Ruski]

:lol: sven ottke.. no only kidding.. :nut

[THN]

László Papp

- Three Olympic gold metals and an outstanding 301-12-6 amateur record
- Undefeated (27-0-2) European champion as professional


:goodMy choise

Greatest Danish boxer apart from Kessler is Tom Bogs MW from the 70'ties

[Luigi1985]

Duilio Loi for sure.

[TBooze]

Georges Carpentier:

Alleged champion of France in all of the classic eight divisions.

Champion of Europe at Lightweight, Welterweight, Middleweight, Light Heavyweight and Heavyweight

World title claimant at Middleweight, Light Heavyweight and Heavyweight

World Champion at Light Heavyweight

So popular that he shared in the first Million Dollar fight (against Jack Dempsey)

[MrMagic]

Marcel Cerdan like avk said:good

[dwilson]

All the guys mentioned are great.

[Darien]

László Papp

- Three Olympic gold metals and an outstanding 301-12-6 amateur record
- Undefeated (27-0-2) European champion as professional


What can I say...

<---

:D

[Axe]

Cerdan is a worthy candidate, though I feel he is a little overrated at times. His opponents didn't always receive a fair shake imo, as in the Green, Raadik and Tenet fights.

As far as amateurs, Id have to go with Papp (others have highlited his amateur career here, what can I say...simply amazing) followed closely by Pietrzykowski.

Now Pietrzykowski never won Olympic gold in 3 attempts, but won 2 bronzes and a silver. This is explained by his competition: first Olympic games, a 21 year old Pietrzykowski lost to none other than a 29 year old Papp at LMW...next games, he was started as a LHW (too small for this class), but won silver, losing to Cassius Clay in the gold medal match in a close fight. He did win four European gold medals in a row.

For the pros, I'll go with Dariusz Michalczewski. Controversial career for never facing Roy Jones (and vice versa), but an ATG at his weightclass nonetheless.

[DINAMITA]

Lennox Lewis or Joe Calzaghe from the modern era. Anyone except Sven Ottke.

[Farmboxer]

If Vlad keeps fighting he could become the best. Calzahge is also great.

[fidds]

How about Nino Benvenuti :goodhe did get to 65-0 before his first loss

[TBooze]

How about Nino Benvenuti :goodhe did get to 65-0 before his first loss

All he fought was Milan taxi drivers....;)

[TBooze]

.

[Luigi1985]

All he fought was Milan taxi drivers....;)


He won the gold medal at the Olympics and than went pro, won his first 65 fights, and everyone who saw him in his prime said he would be hard to beat for most 160 lbs´er in history, he beat fighters like Rodriguez, Mazzinghi, Fullmer, Griffith, etc., all pretty unknown fighters in the USA, right, but that doesn´t mean that they were bums, all of the mentioned fighters are rated very high in their weight class. And don´t repeat what some other posters in the Classic Section wrote (he only beat smaller fighters, etc.), he was himself a WW at the beginning at his career and in his prime a 154 lbs´er. From 66 until 72 or 73 where he retired he had a record of 7 L´s and only 17 wins, that shows you how shot he was, watch for example his fight against Jupp Elze in Germany, a solid fighter, and the fights against Tiger or Monzon, a bigger difference can´t be. Have a nice day, Cheers, -Luigi-

[TBooze]

He won the gold medal at the Olympics and than went pro, won his first 65 fights, and everyone who saw him in his prime said he would be hard to beat for most 160 lbs´er in history, he beat fighters like Rodriguez, Mazzinghi, Fullmer, Griffith, etc., all pretty unknown fighters in the USA, right, but that doesn´t mean that they were bums, all of the mentioned fighters are rated very high in their weight class. And don´t repeat what some other posters in the Classic Section wrote (he only beat smaller fighters, etc.), he was himself a WW at the beginning at his career and in his prime a 154 lbs´er. From 66 until 72 or 73 where he retired he had a record of 7 L´s and only 17 wins, that shows you how shot he was, watch for example his fight against Jupp Elze in Germany, a solid fighter, and the fights against Tiger or Monzon, a bigger difference can´t be. Have a nice day, Cheers, -Luigi-

LOL, my comment was a flippant remark to Haugen's about Chavez;)

Nino was a brilliant fighter, the finest Italian ever IMO, his wins against Rodriguez, Griffith and Fullmer showed that.

[Mantequilla]

He was appalling against Rodriguez.

I can see rating himthe best but that fight was a black mark more than anything else.

[TBooze]

He was appalling against Rodriguez.

I can see rating himthe best but that fight was a black mark more than anything else.

I do not know, I did not see it. So I edited my post.;)

[Luigi1985]

LOL, my comment was a flippant remark to Haugen's about Chavez;)

Nino was a brilliant fighter, the finest Italian ever IMO, his wins against Rodriguez, Griffith and Fullmer showed that.



OMG, now when you say it... :lol:

:thumbsup

[Luigi1985]

The fight against Rodriguez shouldn´t count that much, he was shot to pieces. His jab weren´t there, his speed, his pace, etc., all he was doing was to look for one big shot...

[Eazy]

There are many great European fighters, for example Lennox Lewis, Johansson or Schmeling in the Heavyweight, Dariusz Michalczewski in the light heavyweight, Steve Colins in the super middleweight, Benvenuti in the middleweight, Loi in the light-welterweight and so on.

[Luigi1985]

There are many great European fighters, for example Lennox Lewis, Johansson or Schmeling in the Heavyweight, Dariusz Michalczewski in the light heavyweight, Steve Colins in the super middleweight, Benvenuti in the middleweight, Loi in the light-welterweight and so on.



He´s getting very underrated IMO, a very good fighter for sure, good picks.

[Luigi1985]

Some other great fighters who weren´t mentioned yet:



Arcari
Christoforidis
Bogash (look at his record, should be a HOF´r, no doubt)
Thil
Mazzinghi
Boudouani
Battling Nelson

[janitor]

Some other great fighters who weren´t mentioned yet:



Arcari
Christoforidis
Bogash (look at his record, should be a HOF´r, no doubt)
Thil
Mazzinghi
Boudouani
Battling Nelson

This is the correct answer if we exclude fighters born in Britain.

Bat Nelson is the greatest athlete in the history of boxing bar none.

A guy who could average 85 punches per round over 40+ rounds and take them back at the same rate????????????

[KobeIsGod]

It will be Wladimir Klitschko when he hangs up his gloves :deal (excluding GB)

[antcull]

Sven Ottke would have owned RJJ

[BatTheMan]

:goodMy choise

Greatest Danish boxer apart from Kessler is Tom Bogs MW from the 70'ties
Greatest dane of all time isn't Kessler, Bogs or Bredahl. It's Oscar Matthew Battling Nelson. Former LW champion and conqueror of the great Joe Gans. Probably the toughest fighter ever (and maybe the dirtiest).

He might be the greatest euro-fighter ever.

[boxexpert]

mate parlov

[komar]

Korolev was an incredibly tough man - in boxing and in life,.

Really?

[Kampioni]

Luan Krasniqi :hey

How about Max Schmeling ?

[avk47]

Really?

Privet Komar. Are you being sarcastic? If I remember you yourself wrote an article on him here a bit back. My granddad saw him fight a bunch of times, and there are a bunch of good videos of him available right now.

[komar]

Privet Komar. Are you being sarcastic? If I remember you yourself wrote an article on him here a bit back. My granddad saw him fight a bunch of times, and there are a bunch of good videos of him available right now.

All film I send to USA and few man made a copy for Youtube format.

The Korolev`s daughter Nadejda is my friend.

[Artani]

Arthur Abraham ( Middleweight )
Chris Eubank ( Super Middleweight )
Henry Maske (Light Heavyweight)
Mate Parlov (Cruserweight)
Zelko Mavrovic ( Heavyweight )

[komar]

Henry Maske (Light Heavyweight)
Mate Parlov (Cruserweight)
Zelko Mavrovic ( Heavyweight )

?????????????

[unitas]

max schmeling sure has to be right up there.

[avk47]

All film I send to USA and few man made a copy for Youtube format.

The Korolev`s daughter Nadejda is my friend.

That is awesome :happy. I really respect the work you are doing about Soviet boxing. My coaches always used examples of our great boxers when I was a kid, and one was really obsessed with Lemeshev's technique of knocking down the opponent's front glove, and throwing an overhand punch over the top.

Do you by any chance know if the boxer Lev Yakovlevich Segalovich is still alive? He was a friends coach, and he was enquiring about him..

[avk47]

.

[komar]

That is awesome :happy. I really respect the work you are doing about Soviet boxing. My coaches always used examples of our great boxers when I was a kid, and one was really obsessed with Lemeshev's technique of knocking down the opponent's front glove, and throwing an overhand punch over the top.

Do you by any chance know if the boxer Lev Yakovlevich Segalovich is still alive? He was a friends coach, and he was enquiring about him..

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[dabox]

avk47,

hi you said that there was a video on the great Nikolai Korolev
on youtube but i tried looking for it...could not find it...

if you can give me a link that would be awesome thank you

[Loewe]

Well, there a plenty of good european pros, imo the European scene is pretty much underrated history-wise, there were some very good or even possibly great fighters that never got the chance to fight for the title or even the best contenders of their time due to the titles beeing held hostage by American fighters most of the time.

For me the best was Max Schmeling but this has much to do with him beeing an idol of mine so he somehow is a bit out of competition. But he definitly is the best fighter to ever come out of Germany. I also would like to throw in the guy in my avatar, not really in this league, or at least he wasn´t able to prove it, but still a very very good fighter.
Objectivly i would say Nino Benvenuti. I love the time and weightclass(es) he was fighting at. Griffith, Rodriguez, Benvenuti, Napoles Monzon, just to name a few and he was one of the best of them. Great great fighter, very admirable.
Don´t know much about Loi but when Luigi thinks he is quilified for the top spot he surely was great. Could you perhaps tell me a bit about him?
Guys like Cerdan and Carpentier as France finest should also be mentioned.

[Luigi1985]

Well, there a plenty of good european pros, imo the European scene is pretty much underrated history-wise, there were some very good or even possibly great fighters that never got the chance to fight for the title or even the best contenders of their time due to the titles beeing held hostage by American fighters most of the time.

For me the best was Max Schmeling but this has much to do with him beeing an idol of mine so he somehow is a bit out of competition. But he definitly is the best fighter to ever come out of Germany. I also would like to throw in the guy in my avatar, not really in this league, or at least he wasn´t able to prove it, but still a very very good fighter.
Objectivly i would say Nino Benvenuti. I love the time and weightclass(es) he was fighting at. Griffith, Rodriguez, Benvenuti, Napoles Monzon, just to name a few and he was one of the best of them. Great great fighter, very admirable.
Don´t know much about Loi but when Luigi thinks he is quilified for the top spot he surely was great. Could you perhaps tell me a bit about him?
Guys like Cerdan and Carpentier as France finest should also be mentioned.


Good post,. I agree about Schmeling, definitely a top fighter. You asked about Loi, I say my opinion about him:


He was a LW usually, he was only 5´5, but he went to 140 lbs because there were better opposition, he always said he could have made LW easily. He was beaten only 3 times, against Johansen in Denmark, against Ortiz in his hometown (he lost viá SD and was reportedly robbed, even the fans booed, that´s why the rematch was made) and against Perkins although he knocked Eddie down 2 times and made it very close. He revenged all 3 losses, against Johansen it was a bit early for Loi, but he learned from the defeat and showed in the rematch who was the better man, against Perkins and Ortiz, 2 HOF in their prime, he beat both of them (Ortiz even twice, he even knocked down the iron-chinned Carlos) although Loi was a bit washed up, with over 100 fights, more than 30 years, etc. He beat also other good fighters like Visintin, Marconi, Famechon, Galiana, Garbelli, Flanagan, Manca, etc. In his prime, he was ducked like a plague. He mostly fought in Italy, because he never got the chances in his prime to get outside Italy and go the USA for example, when he got the chances, he went to Denmark, France, USA, Australia, etc., he wasn´t a hometown- fighter like today are so many. He was a real warrior, a good example was, he had a serious car accident with some injuries, but he didn´t want to quit and postpone his EBU- fight against Rodriguez 2 days later, he battled the Spanish to a draw, and some months later he beat him viá shutout. Loi didn´t have elite power or so, but he had respectable power, he floored fighters like Ortiz, Perkins, etc. in their prime, KO´d good fighters like Galiana, former world champion Wallace Smith, etc., he had also a style who would be hard to beat head-to-head. His opponents always said about Loi, that he was pysically incredible strong, and he gave them never a break, he threw non stop punches, from every angle, and he knew every punch, hookercut, left hooks, straight right hands, and his jab was biggest weapon, it was fast and strong. He had an iron chin, on of the best ever p4p, he was never knocked down or reportedly hurt, and he had a great stamina. Some people I have told about Loi, they have him in their p4p-Top 30 list of all times, me too. He was a great, almost unknown and forgotten fighter.





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[Loewe]

Good post,. I agree about Schmeling, definitely a top fighter. You asked about Loi, I say my opinion about him:


He was a LW usually, he was only 5´5, but he went to 140 lbs because there were better opposition, he always said he could have made LW easily. He was beaten only 3 times, against Johansen in Denmark, against Ortiz in his hometown (he lost viá SD and was reportedly robbed, even the fans booed, that´s why the rematch was made) and against Perkins although he knocked Eddie down 2 times and made it very close. He revenged all 3 losses, against Johansen it was a bit early for Loi, but he learned from the defeat and showed in the rematch who was the better man, against Perkins and Ortiz, 2 HOF in their prime, he beat both of them (Ortiz even twice, he even knocked down the iron-chinned Carlos) although Loi was a bit washed up, with over 100 fights, more than 30 years, etc. He beat also other good fighters like Visintin, Marconi, Famechon, Galiana, Garbelli, Flanagan, Manca, etc. In his prime, he was ducked like a plague. He mostly fought in Italy, because he never got the chances in his prime to get outside Italy and go the USA for example, when he got the chances, he went to Denmark, France, USA, Australia, etc., he wasn´t a hometown- fighter like today are so many. He was a real warrior, a good example was, he had a serious car accident with some injuries, but he didn´t want to quit and postpone his EBU- fight against Rodriguez 2 days later, he battled the Spanish to a draw, and some months later he beat him viá shutout. Loi didn´t have elite power or so, but he had respectable power, he floored fighters like Ortiz, Perkins, etc. in their prime, KO´d good fighters like Galiana, former world champion Wallace Smith, etc., he had also a style who would be hard to beat head-to-head. His opponents always said about Loi, that he was pysically incredible strong, and he gave them never a break, he threw non stop punches, from every angle, and he knew every punch, hookercut, left hooks, straight right hands, and his jab was biggest weapon, it was fast and strong. He had an iron chin, on of the best ever p4p, he was never knocked down or reportedly hurt, and he had a great stamina. Some people I have told about Loi, they have him in their p4p-Top 30 list of all times, me too. He was a great, almost unknown and forgotten fighter.





[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Thank you, very appreciated. He seemed to be quite a good fighter. Are there any fights of him on youtube?

[Luigi1985]

Thank you, very appreciated. He seemed to be quite a good fighter. Are there any fights of him on youtube?


No, I don´t think so. Unfortunately, there are only some fights of him available. I´ve seen him against Famechon for example, but only a highlight clip. Yeah, he was definitely at least a very good fighter. :thumbsup

[boxexpert]

amateur or pro? which weightclass? its impossible to tell it that way

[boxexpert]

max schmeling would probably fit best into that position

[komar]

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Korolev!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[bruno's_chin]

Muhammad Ali- His Parents were from Glasgow

[markedwardscott]

I vote for Cerdan, with Carpentier and Papp close.

Cerdan was already a legend before he won the title--and he fought in the shadows of the Nazi regime. Fought Jake Lamotta with a broken arm after Lamotta tackled him in the 1st round.

[avk47]

avk47,

hi you said that there was a video on the great Nikolai Korolev
on youtube but i tried looking for it...could not find it...

if you can give me a link that would be awesome thank you

Very wierd. It seems to have been taken off. There were three different films on there before. Anyway, the Russian amateur boxing federation hosts one of them:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]


it's the first one.

[Lewisbell]

If Alexi Lexin turned pro he would have been up there

Max Schmelling
Steve Collins
Fabrice Tiozzo or Mormeck (in their respective primes)
Nino Benvenuti
Sandro Mazzinghi
Bruno Arcari
Ray Famechon
Salvatore Burruni
(all non active fighters)

[avk47]

If Alexi Lexin turned pro he would have been up there

Max Schmelling
Steve Collins
Fabrice Tiozzo or Mormeck (in their respective primes)
Nino Benvenuti
Sandro Mazzinghi
Bruno Arcari
Ray Famechon
Salvatore Burruni
(all non active fighters)

You think so? I really liked Lezin, but he had two big problems: (1) durability: he could be hurt, and that lost him some fights he deserved to win based on skills; (2) While he was very, very good, he lacked that additional component that would take him to the very top.

[boxexpert]

a question which cannot be answered since there are so many great amateurs and pro`s.

first, we need to know what are the criteria to chose a fighter:

record? decade? opponent? social? weightclass? etc..

do you consider russia belongs to europe? yes,no? that makes the choice even harder

[boxexpert]

does UK also belong to europe?

[Ed.]

does UK also belong to europe?
Apparently not.

[Slider75]

Greatest dane of all time isn't Kessler, Bogs or Bredahl. It's Oscar Matthew Battling Nelson. Former LW champion and conqueror of the great Joe Gans. Probably the toughest fighter ever (and maybe the dirtiest).

He might be the greatest euro-fighter ever.

True! but he was only born in Denmark, he was a little child when they emigrated to America! so he might be the greatest euro-born fighter ever!

[dwilson]

Jeez Steve Collins. No way should he be even mentioned.

[markedwardscott]

I just watched the second Benvenuti Monzon fight. Benvenuti got a raw deal there. He was an outstanding fighter.

[robert ungurean]

Papp
followed by Cerdan

[robert ungurean]

A worthy contender indeed. And if he could have gone pro earlier I think he could have gone even further than that! :good

Have any of you seen bouts from the Soviet heavyweight champion Nikolai Korolev in the 1950s? There is a documentary on him on youtube which includes some footage. I believe that had he been allowed to turn pro he would have achieved great things.

Korolev was an incredibly tough man - in boxing and in life, and had gone through the entire WWII from day one till the final day operating in special groups behind enemy lines. He was very big and physically strong by the standards of that time, was deceptivly good defensivly. He came forward throughout the entire fight, and was known to have a top class chin and devastating KO power in both hands, winning most of his 300 or so amateur bouts early stoppage. The guy was a real fighter, and continued at top level well into his forties.
Couldnt find the documentary. Can U post a link?

[avk47]

Kostya Tszyu should be in with a shout.

Tszyu is part Korean, and from Serov in the Asian part of Russia. I wouldn't class him as a European.

[Artani]

We can finish with Mate Parlov he wins everything in amateur and profesional .

[ogii3]

Very nice thread! I read it with pleasure. Didn't write here for some times:)

It's very tough to make such a classification, without specify amateur or pro fighting is more important. Due to some reasons a lot of great Russian fighters (as well as Cubans and my countrymates Bulgarians) didn't have a chance to become pro fighters. However will try just to mention some of the greats
The Frenchmen Cerdan and Carpentie for sure has great success. Both of them have very interesting stories and participated in superb matches. I give some more credits to Carpentier, because he fough in four diferent weights (equal to 7 of currents). However i put Cerdan among of the Top 5 middleweight fighters of all time.
Nino Benvenuti may be compared to Carpentier and Cerdan, because of his Olympic and Euro golds, but as a pro I rated him bellow the frenchmen.
One of the best British fighters of all time is Ted Lewis (Gershon Mendelof). He finished his career with 300 matches and he won world and euro welter crowns and had amazing battles by 20 round with the best fighters of his age at the beginning of the century. He fough more then 2000 rounds in his career!!!
Laszlo Papp without a doubt must be put among the greatest Euro fighters. I rate him on the first place. A lot of people can't imagine what costs to be three times olympic champion in the times, when judging wasn't so corrputed and you have a lot of equal fighters around. During the Olympics he beat totaly different opponents. And he finished his pro career undefeated, it's fact that he never faced some of the big names. It would be very interesting to see a match against Benvenuti, who was champ during late 60-s, Sugar Rey Robinson, Basilio or Fulmur. When he finally was stopped to fight for world championships for Hungarian governement he was to old, passed 35.
Lennox Lewis for sure must be in such a list, despite the fact that he is Olympic champion for Canada and with Jamaica heritage, but he ever considers himself as British.
Max Schmelling for sure is very good fighter, but can't compare to those mentioned above. He never achieved so much as them and never has the class of them. But he has heart, this is for sure. Primo Carnera also has a short reign at the heavyweights, but it was during very talanted times and his KO percentage was very high.
Now with so much world championships belts is different, but the one we may put ahead from the current times is definitly Joe Calzaghe.
From the Germans i would like to mention Maske and Graciano Rockigiani, because both of them showed great spirit adding to it Henry Maske's succes as amateur with world and olympic titles.
The name of Javier Castiillejo also must be put in the list, because he fight with success on very late age and has matches with some of the modern greats, wining twice world championships and european several times.
Just to add some words for amateur boxing :) Because of my post is too long and i do not want to bore more of you, just to mention two of Bulgarian fighters - Ivalio Marinov (aka Ismail Mustafov) and Serafim Todorov. The first won Olympic, world and european championships, despite the fact that he has common problems as Papp and our governement didn't let him go out. After Marinov finished his career, he didn't go away for boxing, but you may still find him in major tournaments in my country. He has his own club and if sometimes you go to Bulgaria's Black sea, you may visit his fish restaurant, which is right on the sands :) And i am sure he may tell you a lot of interesting stories and you will find yourself what a great and modest person is siting right next to you.
About Todorov, he has gods figt, but utilize not more then 20-30 percents :) He would become the greatest amateur fighter of all time... but misses his chance and left with "just" three worlds (with four finals) and three European titles and one silver from olympic games, the same Games he beat Floyd Mayeather on the semifinal (the last loss in the career of Mayerather)...

[znaak]

Very interesting read. Thanks for taking the time to post it. :happy

[Killer Instinct]

sven ottke. lol

[smellmyfinger]

Timo Hoffman

















:lol:

[porprock]

Ivan Drago