The Colour Line & Gene Tunney

[McGrain]

Who did Tunney miss out on because of the line? Who should he have fought?

[El Matador]

George Godfrey immediately comes to mind. He was dynamite, but never got a shot, if I'm not mistaken.

[janitor]

Gene Tunney vs Kid Norfolk is another fight that could have been made.

I will not say that it would have been inevitable.

[mcvey]

Tunney offered to fight Wills immediately after the Dempsey Firpo fight ,with the winner to meet Dempsey ,Wills and his manager declined.Godfrey was Firpo's sparring partner for the Dempsey fight .

[dpw417]

This is why I have so much respect for Harry Greb...He didn't refuse to fight ANYONE for any reason. Is Tunney a great fighter? Yes, he is...but I don't have the total regard for him as I normally would an ATG because of his refusal to fight black fighters.
Judging by how he fought and the heart he demonstrated...he certainly wasn't afraid of anyone! But it's just THERE (the colour line)

[mcvey]

This is why I have so much respect for Harry Greb...He didn't refuse to fight ANYONE for any reason. Is Tunney a great fighter? Yes, he is...but I don't have the total regard for him as I normally would an ATG because of his refusal to fight black fighters.
Judging by how he fought and the heart he demonstrated...he certainly wasn't afraid of anyone! But it's just THERE (the colour line)
Well he offered to fight the number one contender ,[Wills ],the winner to go in with Dempsey.Paddy Mullins ,Wills manager refused to fight Tunney.The best two challengers for the title,from 1923 to 1926 were Wills and Tunney ,a fight between them would have been logical ,it wasnt Tunney 's fault it didnt happen.

[dpw417]

Well he offered to fight the number one contender ,[Wills ],the winner to go in with Dempsey.Paddy Mullins ,Wills manager refused to fight Tunney.The best two challengers for the title,from 1923 to 1926 were Wills and Tunney ,a fight between them would have been logical ,it wasnt Tunney 's fault it didnt happen.
Thanks McVey...Did not know that. Do you know the circumstances as to why Wills refused the bout? to my way of thinking, the publicity garnered would have likely seen the winner in the ring with Dempsey for the title, and that would have by far outweighed the risk of Tunney winning (which he was very capable)...Didn't Wills realize his chances of being frozen out of the picture were very likely(?) You would think so! If he was able to beat Tunney, it seems to me that his chances of fighting Dempsey would have increased considerably(?) It would be a risk worth taking! I wonder why he wouldn't have done it? I don't understand it personally...

[SuzieQ49]

Tunney ducked george godfrey horribly and blantantly. It was a disgrace. Ill post the newspaper articles. As for tunney-wills....why should wills have to fight tunney to get a shot at dempsey? he was 35 tears old by this point and had been # 1 contender for 7 straight years, he had MORE THAN EARNED HIS SHOT.

[SuzieQ49]

Larry Gains once said "Godfrey was the best of them all. I've sparred with Dempsey and fought just about every good heavyweight out there and I will tell you, George Godfrey was the best. I was afraid of only two men in my life, My Father and George Godfrey."





TUNNEY SPURNS GODFREY MATCH



"plans for a battle between geney tunney, former american lightheavyweight champion, and george godfrey, negro heavyweight, as the feature attraction on the annuel christmas boxing carnival in madison square garden on dec 18, today were abandoned. it was announced by the officials of the fund. billy gibson manager of gene tunney declinded the prooffered match. according the the fund officials, gibson asserted harry wills is the only negro heavyweight tunney will box." - los angeles times nov. 4 1925





EASTERN SNAPSHOTS by W. Rollo Wilson



Nov.12, 1925-The Baron of Leiperville is home again with wonderous tales of the mighty deeds of the "Shadow" along the gilded slope. The "Shadow" is just another way of denoting Gorger George Godfrey, Jimmy's (Dougherty) outsize white elephant. For white elephant George seems now to be. Nobody wants to fight him for love or money. Mr. Wills unostentatiously draws the color line. Mr. Tunney is more blatant in his announcement to the same effect. "I'll fight Harry Wills," broadcasts James Joseph, "but I draw the color line on George Godfrey."



Two things may be on the mind of the Apollo of Greenwich Village, Perhaps he thinks that one "shot" with Wills would give him enough of the filthy lucre for his future earthly needs. Win or lose he would be "in." Fighting Ole Black Lightning [Godfrey] would be a case of all to lose and nothing to gain, he probably thinks. At this time Billy Gibson and Tunney are saying that the Big Three of Boxing are Dempsey, Wills, and the modest Gene. Godfrey would fain make it a foursome, but you can be jolly well sure that the triumvira will continue to say him nay.



One of the first acts of [Dougherty] on his arrival was to release another challenge in the general direction of the above-mentioned Big Three. His latest offer is this:

All any promoter has to do is get Harry, Gene or Jack to sign the papers and pay them whatever they want. Godfrey will come in without asking for a dollar. The aftermath will provide the Dougherty clan with all they will want, because they feel that George can take any of the three.



As is well known Dougherty and Dempsey are the best of friends. Last summer a year ago (1924) Dempsey visited the baronial halls (Leiperville). While here the subject of a bout with George was broached. Jack declared that if he fought at all he would fight Wills, but not Godfrey. Jimmy pressed him for the reason and he said : "Godfrey is a big strong fellow and is young, Wills is getting older and I think he will be the easier man of the two. That is the reason I prefer to fight him, if I fight." - ROLLO WILSON was often referred to as "the dean of the Black Press.





"Tunney wanted nothing to do with Godfrey--plain and simple--too tough a fight. Godfrey is vastly under-rated. His record and career are somewhat mired in mystery. So many DQ's, knockouts and damn mystifying losses. I have no doubt, for instance, that he had the cuffs on against Sharkey. The high number of DQ's has more to do with him fighting to order than it does with him being sloppy. Tunney could outbox most heavies and I don't doubt that he could outbox George Godfrey for 5 or six or even ten rounds. However, George was fast for his size, was adept at chasing men down and could hit like a team of mules. If this were a fifteen round fight, I see Godfrey having a hell of chance catching up to Gene. Remember that Tunney's heavyweight resume is not that long or overly impressive. His two best wins were against Dempsey--over 10 rounds--and it is probable that Jack was past it then. Godfrey handled Larry Gaines fairly easily and Gaines was a boxer in both the mold and style of Tunney. Gaines stated that he feared only two men in his life, his father and George Godfrey. George was a beast--big, athletic, huge puncher and surprisingly good speed and movement for a man his size. I think in his prime, 1925-1931, he was about as good as it got. Nobody really wanted to fight George, and for good reason. Tunney avoided him like the plague. In his prime, with no handcuffs, and this is strictly my opinion, I think he could have beaten, Tunney, Sharkey, Carnera and maybe even Dempsey(certainly a post 1926 Dempsey)."- Boxing historian Kevin Smith Author of Unforgiveable Blackness







"Not only did Tunney duck Godfrey but so did Dempsey and Wills. From late 1923 Baron (James) Dougherty issued challenges almost daily for Wills to take on Godfrey, who was Philadelphia's greatest drawing card. Promoters Herman Taylor and Bobby Gunnis figured such a match in Phila would do between $250 K to $500 K. and the winner would be the "logical challenger" for Dempsey. Dougherty offered all kinds of perks to Wills including that Godfrey would take the match for $ 1.



I think Godfrey was the most handcuffed fighter of all time. When we interviewed Dougherty's son Howard, who was also a promoter and drove Godfrey across country for his campaign in California, He talked of all the concessions they had to make in order for Godfrey to meet high rated fighters including carrying opponents, fouling out, etc. His loss to Risko was a case in point as some fair eyewitness scribes have noted that Godfrey easily handled Risko for the first eight rounds at Ebbetts Field then Risko made a courageous stand in the last two rounds and they awarded him the decision.



It was widely understood in Philly that Godfrey agreed to "carry" Risko, that his first two matches with Renault were "smellers" and his "foul-outs" were "ordered." Today People don't realize that one leading black challenger (Wills) was tolerated because of his "good name" with the New York commission but two top black challengers were frowned on. Godfrey and his management (Dougherty) tried to alleviate the situation by attempting to lure Wills into the ring by any means, but of course Wills and Paddy Mullins were not about to risk their position that they earned by taking on young, and very dangerous opponent like Godfrey.I still believe Godfrey was the most "handcuffed" boxer of all time. Being the "most handcuffed boxer of all time" (my opinion) doesn't mean that he was the best of his period, just the "most feared" with the cuffs off. By the way check out photos of Godfrey pre 1926 before his frustrations caused him to gain weight. His body was ripped with muscle and he was always in top condition."- Chuck Hasson Well Respected Boxing Historian and Phillyboxing.com Founder

[SuzieQ49]

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[SuzieQ49]

Here is what Baron Dougherty is quoted about Godfrey's early career (Chester Times 8/15/47- after Godfrey died) :
"George was born down in Mobile, Alabama but left there when he was young and eventually found his way to Chicago. There he learned to box under old Sam Langford. Langford, one of the greatest old fighters, took him through the south giving exhibitions.
"Just about that time Jack Johnson, the former champion, was looking for a sparring partner for vaudeville exhibitions. He was thinking about making a comeback. He picked up George and they toured the country. While the were in Atlantic City, Johnson drove up to see me.
"Jimmy, he said, I engaged this boy but he is too fast and clever for me to make a good showing. I've got to get rid of him and get a bigger, slower man. He's a great boxer. I think you can make him champion. I'll sell you his contract for $1,000.........."then Rickard offered Wills $50,000. to fight Godfrey in Madison Square Garden. Paddy Mullen, Wills' manager, refused because he felt that Kearns and I were too close and that we were trying to "kill" Wills as an opponent for Dempsey..............."After that I toured all over with George. He never had to exert himself. HE WAS NEVER KNOCKED DOWN. In most of his matches he had to carry the fellows for a couple of rounds. We couldn't get the topnotchers to fight...............GODFREY WAS NEVER KNOCKED DOWN [when Dougherty had him], he was never on the floor,"

So apparently Godfrey was touring with Langford during the time of the reported knockouts by Langford. We will never know what really happened. These supposed fights also too place extremley early in George Godfreys Career.

11/1/1943 – Long Beach Independent
“Godfrey, like all oldtimers believes that the present day fighters are not as good as the boys a few years back. “Today they use bigger gloves and mouthpieces and other forms of protection that oldtimers scorned,” Godfrey said. “I think they were tougher in the old days. The present day fighter would not take the punishment that was dished out by the oldtimers.”

Godfrey says the hardest hitter he ever met was Sam Langford, but the greatest fighter of all time, the one that would take any of the fighters of today, is Jack Johnson. “He was the greatest defensive counter-puncher there ever was,” Godfrey said reverently.

Incidentally, Godfrey says he does not go to fights any more and he would not advise anyone to be a professional fighter. “If I had a son, I wouldn’t let him go near a boxing ring. There’s better ways of making a living,” the uncrowned champ vows.”



" Baron Dougherty, manager of "Big Gawge," challenged Wills almost daily from 1923 thru 1926. Dougherty offered Wills' management their choice of terms-including "winner take all" and even offered Wills the entire purse (even if he lost).
Philly promoters Herman Taylor + Bobby Gunnis pursued the match stating that it would easily do a quarter of a million dollars in the Quaker City where Godfrey was a huge box-office attraction.
Tex Rickard tried to arrange the bout for New York to decide the "leading negro title challenger." Also California promoters were interested because Godfrey had become a terrific drawing card in L.A. and San Francisco. But the Wills management still refused.
The sports writers pressed the issue but no got no response. Even the dean of America's black sportswriters, Rollo Wilson, claimed that Wills was ducking Godfrey"- Chuck Hasson

[dpw417]

Here is what Baron Dougherty is quoted about Godfrey's early career (Chester Times 8/15/47- after Godfrey died) :
"George was born down in Mobile, Alabama but left there when he was young and eventually found his way to Chicago. There he learned to box under old Sam Langford. Langford, one of the greatest old fighters, took him through the south giving exhibitions.
"Just about that time Jack Johnson, the former champion, was looking for a sparring partner for vaudeville exhibitions. He was thinking about making a comeback. He picked up George and they toured the country. While the were in Atlantic City, Johnson drove up to see me.
"Jimmy, he said, I engaged this boy but he is too fast and clever for me to make a good showing. I've got to get rid of him and get a bigger, slower man. He's a great boxer. I think you can make him champion. I'll sell you his contract for $1,000.........."then Rickard offered Wills $50,000. to fight Godfrey in Madison Square Garden. Paddy Mullen, Wills' manager, refused because he felt that Kearns and I were too close and that we were trying to "kill" Wills as an opponent for Dempsey..............."After that I toured all over with George. He never had to exert himself. HE WAS NEVER KNOCKED DOWN. In most of his matches he had to carry the fellows for a couple of rounds. We couldn't get the topnotchers to fight...............GODFREY WAS NEVER KNOCKED DOWN [when Dougherty had him], he was never on the floor,"

So apparently Godfrey was touring with Langford during the time of the reported knockouts by Langford. We will never know what really happened. These supposed fights also too place extremley early in George Godfreys Career.

11/1/1943 – Long Beach Independent
“Godfrey, like all oldtimers believes that the present day fighters are not as good as the boys a few years back. “Today they use bigger gloves and mouthpieces and other forms of protection that oldtimers scorned,” Godfrey said. “I think they were tougher in the old days. The present day fighter would not take the punishment that was dished out by the oldtimers.”

Godfrey says the hardest hitter he ever met was Sam Langford, but the greatest fighter of all time, the one that would take any of the fighters of today, is Jack Johnson. “He was the greatest defensive counter-puncher there ever was,” Godfrey said reverently.

Incidentally, Godfrey says he does not go to fights any more and he would not advise anyone to be a professional fighter. “If I had a son, I wouldn’t let him go near a boxing ring. There’s better ways of making a living,” the uncrowned champ vows.”



" Baron Dougherty, manager of "Big Gawge," challenged Wills almost daily from 1923 thru 1926. Dougherty offered Wills' management their choice of terms-including "winner take all" and even offered Wills the entire purse (even if he lost).
Philly promoters Herman Taylor + Bobby Gunnis pursued the match stating that it would easily do a quarter of a million dollars in the Quaker City where Godfrey was a huge box-office attraction.
Tex Rickard tried to arrange the bout for New York to decide the "leading negro title challenger." Also California promoters were interested because Godfrey had become a terrific drawing card in L.A. and San Francisco. But the Wills management still refused.
The sports writers pressed the issue but no got no response. Even the dean of America's black sportswriters, Rollo Wilson, claimed that Wills was ducking Godfrey"- Chuck Hasson
Thanks for the posts SuzieQ49.
Good info on Godfrey.

[Boilermaker]

Tunney ducked george godfrey horribly and blantantly. It was a disgrace. Ill post the newspaper articles. As for tunney-wills....why should wills have to fight tunney to get a shot at dempsey? he was 35 tears old by this point and had been # 1 contender for 7 straight years, he had MORE THAN EARNED HIS SHOT.

Suzy, are you serious?

Tunney beat Dempsey in September of 1926. In the same month, Godfrey was beaten by Sharkey. Tunney then faced the winner of Dempsey vs Sharkey! It would almost be like saying that Vitali Klitchsko ducked Tyson, because he fought Danny Williams instead. Absolutely ridiculous. You dont earn a title shot by losing, wheher or not you are wearing the cuffs in that fight.

In July 28, Tunney fought tom Heeney. ironically, this about 1 month or so after Godfrey just lost a decision to John Risko. So when Tunney retired, Godfrey can hardly be said to be one of the first in line to fight Tunney.

Harry Wills, meanwhile is a slightly different matter. When Tunney won the title in 1926, Wills had established himself as the clear number one. However, shortly after this, he lost a controversial fight to Sharkey, so obviously, he had to wait in line behind the Dempsey Sharkey winner. By July 1927 he had been knocked out by Paulo Uzcudent, so he pretty much eliminated himself by this time.

So where is this blatant ducking? On the way through as contender?

[Ezzard]

Why let the time line and history get in the way of some curious personal grudge against a great man who lived his life a long time ago. Suzy probably carries these articles around with him just in case he needs to put the record straight with people he passes on the street.

What happened was wrong but it was the way it was.

[mcvey]

The problem was that the Champ Dempsey was inactive from 1923 to 1926,he had married ,fell out with his Manager,Kearns and was living a soft life .Of his challengers few had a realistic chance with him he had beaten Gibbons and Firpo two standouts,Jack Renault was rated no 4 in 1925.Renault had been a sparring partner for Dempsey and was not considered a viable threat to the Champ,Godfrey rated no6,had been Firpos sparring partner for his challenge to Dempsey.The two men who stood out were Wills no 1 contender and Tunney number 2 .Wills had beaten Firpo by News Dec ,and,Bartley Madden another contender.In 1925 Wills beat Charley Weinert and Floyd Johnson,a couple of fringe contenders,Wills had been the number 1 contender throughout Dempsey's reign ,indeed in 1922 they signed to fight ,but all sorts of shenanigans and political pressure prevented a mixed race fight for the heavyweight title,a back lash from Johnsons days.Paddy Mullins,Wills manager took the not unreasonable view that public pressure,aided by the editor of the Ring magazine Nat Fleischer ,would eventually force Dempsey into a match with Wills.Tunney, now in his prime ,with wins over,Jack Burke,Weinert,Loughran,Renault,Jimmy Delaney,Carpentier,Madden ,Risko,and Gibbons,wanted Dempsey ,to get the match he suggested a fight with Wills,Wills was now in his 30's ,both he and his manager saw such a fight as an unnessasary risk ,,so they relied on public pressure to bring about a fight between Dempsey and the Brown Panther Wills,political intrigue stopped that one. Tunney got the fight with Dempsey,and Wills missed the boat.

[Nemesis]

This is why I have so much respect for Harry Greb...He didn't refuse to fight ANYONE for any reason. Is Tunney a great fighter? Yes, he is...but I don't have the total regard for him as I normally would an ATG because of his refusal to fight black fighters.

stop talking nonsense and ditto to SuzieQ

[OLD FOGEY]

Who did Tunney miss out on because of the line? Who should he have fought?

One can make a good case that he perhaps should have defended against Godfrey in 1928. Godfrey did blow a fight to Risko, though, giving Tunney an out. As a practical matter to the champion, if Godfrey always wore the cuffs for his big fights, why should the champion fight him anyway? He was still officially losing.

Wills and Godfrey were super-heavyweights, Tunney a lightheavy most of his career. I would really score him more for not fighting Norfolk somewhere along the line, especially in 1923 or 1924.

[SuzieQ49]

Why let the time line and history get in the way of some curious personal grudge against a great man who lived his life a long time ago. Suzy probably carries these articles around with him just in case he needs to put the record straight with people he passes on the street.

What happened was wrong but it was the way it was.

Ive read and heard personally that gene was a racist elitist snob.

[SuzieQ49]

One can make a good case that he perhaps should have defended against Godfrey in 1928. Godfrey did blow a fight to Risko

I dont see how he blew the fight to risko. he was ordered to carry risko which he did, and still most thought godfrey won the fight. he most likely could have knocked risko out had he tried his best.

[OLD FOGEY]

I dont see how he blew the fight to risko. he was ordered to carry risko which he did, and still most thought godfrey won the fight. he most likely could have knocked risko out had he tried his best.

He lost the fight.

If he didn't try his best, he didn't try his best. That is a tragedy for Godfrey, but I really have to think a while whether I would use this as a stick to beat Tunney with.

[OLD FOGEY]

Ive read and heard personally that gene was a racist elitist snob.

This is one way of judging a boxer, I guess.

[mcvey]

Ive read and heard personally that gene was a racist elitist snob.
I some -how get the feeling Gene Tunney hasn't got you as President of his fan club.

[Ezzard]

Ive read and heard personally that gene was a racist elitist snob.

1) I don't think that matters when regarding his boxing abilities. he was one of the greats of the 1920s. Tyson was a rapist but it has nothing to do with him as a fighter.

2) I think you'd be surprised at just how mnany people were racist back then. It was basically the norm to be prejudiced.

Esseentially though I was pulling your leg.

[SuzieQ49]

I dont hold it against him as a fighter at all. I just was responding to your comment about him being a "great man".


If he didn't try his best, he didn't try his best. That is a tragedy for Godfrey, but I really have to think a while whether I would use this as a stick to beat Tunney with.

Godfrey badly wanted a shot at tunney. he knew with the title on the line, he would most likely be allowed to try his best, and without the cuffs he had a good shot at beating gene, whether or not he would have.....godfrey just wanted the chance to fight for the biggest prize in sports with 100% effort. godfreys camp challenged gene with tunney to take the entire purse.

[OLD FOGEY]

I dont hold it against him as a fighter at all. I just was responding to your comment about him being a "great man".




Godfrey badly wanted a shot at tunney. he knew with the title on the line, he would most likely be allowed to try his best, and without the cuffs he had a good shot at beating gene, whether or not he would have.....godfrey just wanted the chance to fight for the biggest prize in sports with 100% effort. godfreys camp challenged gene with tunney to take the entire purse.

I find it confusing that Godfrey could have tried his best in a championship fight with Tunney, but he was not allowed to try his best against Risko.

Just seems very odd to me, just like the two losses to Renault being fixes, but the third fight suddenly on the level so Godfrey can win.

[McGrain]

He lost the fight.

If he didn't try his best, he didn't try his best. That is a tragedy for Godfrey, but I really have to think a while whether I would use this as a stick to beat Tunney with.


Yeah, I think this sums up my feelings about the Godfrey situation.

I also agree with you that Kid Norfolk is a fighter Tunney should have tackled.

[SuzieQ49]

Tunney never fought a fighter near godfreys size. he never fought a fighter godfreys size with power speed like godfrey had. Godfrey was # 2 rated heavyweight contender in 1928, and a consistent top 10 rated contender in the mid 1920s by Ring Magazine. George Godfrey is also a hall of famer. That is two hall of famers in there primes(sharkey godfrey) tunney missed out on fighting. Tom heeney as your last title defense instead of a young dangerous future hall of famer?

[dpw417]

stop talking nonsense and ditto to SuzieQ
Hey bud, Back it up. I typed it...I meant it...The plain facts are Tunney never did fight a Black man in the ring! Doing it and having your management talking about it are two very different things.

[OLD FOGEY]

Tunney never fought a fighter near godfreys size. he never fought a fighter godfreys size with power speed like godfrey had. Godfrey was # 2 rated heavyweight contender in 1928, and a consistent top 10 rated contender in the mid 1920s by Ring Magazine. George Godfrey is also a hall of famer. That is two hall of famers in there primes(sharkey godfrey) tunney missed out on fighting. Tom heeney as your last title defense instead of a young dangerous future hall of famer?

Tunney also had at least 11 fights against Hall-of-Famers, not a total to sneeze at, especially as he fought a relatively short career.

Tunney went, I think, 7-1 against Hall-of-Famers in official decisions, won his last fight in a newspaper decision with Greb, and certainly many newspapers had him at least even with Greb in their fourth fight and also even or better than Loughran in their fight. Actually, all this is pretty impressive.

Like Godfrey, Sharkey lost a key fight in 1928 and had been ko'd by Dempsey. That he was much better than Heeney might be a bit of Monday morning quarterbacking. Anyway, Tunney is not considered a truly great heavyweight by most critics. He is considered a great lightheavyweight and a great p4p fighter.

[Boilermaker]

Tunney never fought a fighter near godfreys size. he never fought a fighter godfreys size with power speed like godfrey had. Godfrey was # 2 rated heavyweight contender in 1928, and a consistent top 10 rated contender in the mid 1920s by Ring Magazine. George Godfrey is also a hall of famer. That is two hall of famers in there primes(sharkey godfrey) tunney missed out on fighting. Tom heeney as your last title defense instead of a young dangerous future hall of famer?

If you think tunney ducked Godfrey, do you also think that Marciano ducked Valdez?