Rank the best fighters Ali beat.

[Sonny's jab]

I'd like to see some ordered lists (top 10s would be great) of opponents Muhammad Ali beat, taking into account how good they were when he beat them.

Fighters he beat twice you can rate twice in you like, to illustrate their quality at the two different times. (eg. Patterson '65 and Patterson '72, or Chuvalo '66 and Chuvalo '72, etc. etc.). Of course, if you would rank two versions of the same opponent right next to one another it is unnecessary to bother ranking him twice.
(Hopefully this is making sense.)

[ChrisPontius]

1. Foreman
2. Liston
3. Frazier
4. Lubbers (sorry, i'm dutch)
5. Young
6. Quarry
7. Patterson
8. Norton (1976, even if it was a questionable win)
9. Lyle
10. Bonevena


Foreman and Liston are very close, but i gave Foreman the edge because he was 25 and at his peak, and most of all, he destroyed both men who beat Ali.
I gave Frazier one spot because i don't think there's a whole lot between him in '74 and '75. In '71 he was much better but Ali didn't beat him then.

I also put Patterson on because it's hard to judge when he was better. Back problems in their first fight and 37 years old in their second... yet did well.
I put Quarry over him because he beat Patterson twice, although it's close.

I also put Young despite the fact that it was a questionable win. I think he's a level above the rest. I hate the word since i've come to ESB, but he's somewhat underrated (especially by the jugdes, three times in his career).

[Beebs]

1. Patterson










55. Liston
56. Foreman



I don't care about the rest.

:lol: :lol: :patsch

[Beebs]

1. Patterson










55. Liston
56. Foreman



I don't care about the rest.

:lol: :lol: :patsch

[Beebs]

have you honestly sat down and watched film of foreman? i see people sparring in my gym all the time who display better technique than that ogre.

Technique is only good for what it accomplishes, that is all that matters, results are the end all be all off "good technique" what works is good technique.

[ChrisPontius]

have you honestly sat down and watched film of foreman? i see people sparring in my gym all the time who display better technique than that ogre.

I bet Joe Frazier and Ken Norton also displayed better technique in the gym... guess what, they were annihilated.

[ChrisPontius]

I've seen bantamweights who could take a heavyweight punch better than those two china chins.



Foreman should thank god he never had to fight you, you would've exposed him.

[McGrain]

Foreman should thank god he never had to fight you, you would've exposed him.

:lol:

What am I to do about the Liston fights in this thread? I consider both to have been fixed, i'd bet those two verions of Liston would have been #1 and #2.

[ChrisPontius]

You think an underprepared and somewhat aging Liston (first fight) is better head to head than a peak Foreman ?

[young griffo]

Off the top of my head my list goes...
1-Foreman
2-Frazier(3)
3-Liston(1)
4-Patterson(1)
5-Norton(2)
6-Quarry(2)
7-Terrell
8-Lyle
9-Ellis
10-Bonaveva
11-Chuvalo(1)
12-Shavers
13-Cooper(1)
14-J.Young
15-Quarry(1)
I've probably missed someone really obvious but Ali beat so many good fighters it's hard to remember them all,but I'll stand by my picks.
For now.

[McGrain]

1 - Frazier III
2 - Foreman
3 - Frazier II
4 - Norton
5 - Patterson II
6 - Terrell
7 - Earnie Shavers
8 - George Chuvalo
9 - Jefrry Quarry
10-Oscar Bonavena

I've left Liston off. In my opinion he wasn't there to fight and so the result was never in any doubt. Of all the fights Ali ever fought, Liston was the one where he the best chance of a result (close to 100%).

Patterson I - his back was to bad to make this list.

My list is soft as it gets closer to 10, 10-15 would be pretty interchangeable I think.

[Sonny's jab]

My own list :

1. (tie) Frazier (2 or 3)
1. (tie) Foreman
3. Norton (2)
4. Quarry
5. Patterson (2)
6. Ellis
7. Liston (1 - *pathetic performance by Sonny)
8. Young
9. Lyle
10. Bonavena
11. Terrell
12. Folley
13. Shavers
14. Chuvalo (1)

[My dinner with Conteh]

Foreman
Liston
Frazier (74)
Norton (76)
Quarry (69)

[Bummy Davis]

Foreman...ripe, raw but undefeated
Liston, first fight was on the $$$, 2nd was a dive by Liston
Frazier..best Frazier beat him, less than best Frazier gave him hell but Ali won
Quarry..he beat a prime Quarry TKO and made it look easy,put doubt in Jerry
Patterson..Floyd gave him trouble 1st time the back second the age
Norton...Ken had the style to trouble Ali and Ali's 2 wins were close,1st fight all Ken
Bonavena...Oscar gave a great effort but fizzled in the end, Ali looked strong
Young...can be counted as a loss..(I felt Young won
Bugner..good win over a big guy
Lyle..Lyle was already dominated by Quarry..Ron was overated as a puncher

[C. M. Clay II]

1. Foreman
2. Frazier II
3. Liston II
4. Liston I
5. Frazier III
6. Patterson I
7. Norton II
8. Norton III
9. Ellis
10. Quarry I

:good

[McGrain]

My own list :

1. (tie) Frazier (2 or 3)
1. (tie) Foreman
3. Norton (2)
4. Quarry
5. Patterson (2)
6. Ellis
7. Liston (1 - *pathetic performance by Sonny)
8. Young
9. Lyle
10. Bonavena
11. Terrell
12. Folley
13. Shavers
14. Chuvalo (1)

Regardless of what you think of the "why", do you really think that the Liston who arrived in the ring was better, more difficult to beat than Terrell etc.?

I think you underate the Terrell win in general. Though Ali never looks like using, he was at his absolute peak for that fight. Put any of those guys in with him on that evening and they would have dipped on this list, no?

Patterson below Quarry?

[ChrisPontius]

I'm suprised by how low many people think of Young.


He has a win over Foreman who is top3 on these lists, he made a very close fight with Ali (should've won), should've gotten the nod over Shavers, beat Lyle who also makes it on some lists here and should've gotten the decision over Norton who also ranks high on most lists here.

[Bummy Davis]

I'm suprised by how low many people think of Young.


He has a win over Foreman who is top3 on these lists, he made a very close fight with Ali (should've won), should've gotten the nod over Shavers, beat Lyle who also makes it on some lists here and should've gotten the decision over Norton who also ranks high on most lists here.


I thought Young should be higher but I counted him as beating Ali, I thought we were rated Ali's wins based on how impressive, Young was up there with Frazier and Foreman, maby #2 but the win Ali had over him rates low(because I count it as a loss for Ali or a poor win

[Sonny's jab]

Regardless of what you think of the "why", do you really think that the Liston who arrived in the ring was better, more difficult to beat than Terrell etc.?



No. You got me there. I just felt obliged to put Liston somewhere. To be fair to Ali, Liston did box a bit and wing a few punches in in their first fight. He landed some hard shots to the ribs, and I had him winning 2 or 3 of the 6 completed rounds, so he was doing some fighting (but not much).
Dropping him completely (as you did) would perhaps be wiser.


I think you underate the Terrell win in general. Though Ali never looks like using, he was at his absolute peak for that fight. Put any of those guys in with him on that evening and they would have dipped on this list, no?


I'm not rating the guys only on how they looked against Ali, because that would penalize Ali for performing at his best against the best.

Ernie Terrell never impressed me. He's okay, but not better than the men I put ahead of him.


Patterson below Quarry?


Quarry was better, IMO.
Especially considering Patterson's injury in the 1st fight, and his age in the 2nd.

[Sweet Science]

1. Liston I- Ali made him look bad, he would have beaten everyone else on this list.

2. Foreman - Crude but menacingly powerful and undefeated.

3. Frazier 2 and 3 (more so 3)- A true warrior gave Ali hell on all 3 occasions

5. Patterson II- Extremely skilled and lightining fast.

6. Norton 2 and 3- The bogeyman

7. Bonavena - Tough motherfucking son of a bitch. (pardon my french)

9. Foster - Excellent jabber, I know he wasn't a real heavyweight

10. Quarry II- Tough guy.

[Holmes' Jab]

1. Liston I- Ali made him look bad, he would have beaten everyone else on this list.

2. Foreman - Crude but menacingly powerful and undefeated.

3. Frazier 2 and 3 (more so 3)- A true warrior gave Ali hell on all 3 occasions

5. Patterson II- Extremely skilled and lightining fast.

6. Norton 2 and 3- The bogeyman

7. Bonavena - Tough motherfucking son of a bitch. (pardon my french)

9. Foster - Excellent jabber, I know he wasn't a real heavyweight

10. Quarry II- Tough guy.

Totally agree here. :good

[George W Hedge]

1. Foreman
2. Liston
3. Frazier
4. Lubbers (sorry, i'm dutch)
5. Young
6. Quarry
7. Patterson
8. Norton (1976, even if it was a questionable win)
9. Lyle
10. Bonevena



Your top 3 are correct, no doubt.

Just 1 question.... why did you put norton of 1976 when ali beat norton much clearer in 1973... a better version of norton at that ?

:good

[ChrisPontius]

Norton started boxing late and had little amature experience, picked it up in the Marines i think. In 1976, he was somewhat greater because he had a nice winning streak (including Quarry) and a lot of experience whereas in 1973, an out of shape Ali was his only win worth noting.

I ignored the fact that he probably should've lost the third fight with Ali, though. I just looked at who was best at the time Ali beat him, whether it was close, rightful or not.